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    2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

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    TR1

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  TR1 on Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:46 am

    Can't say I like the concept of the wheeled Armata; just don't see the use of it in mechanized formations.
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    GarryB

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  GarryB on Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:03 am

    Can't say I like the concept of the wheeled Armata; just don't see the use of it in mechanized formations.

    By definition we are not talking about a wheeled armata. Armata by definition is a heavy tracked vehicle chassis with mobility and protection levels in the MBT range.

    A wheeled Koalition can be used in independent artillery brigades... with a range of 70km it doesn't need to operate very close to the units it is supporting and therefore could forgo the requirements for protection.

    In terms of costs a wheeled Koalition will be much much cheaper to buy and to operate and maintain, and while tactical mobility cross country would suffer, its theatre mobility would be impressive.

    I rather suspect that the armata based Koalition would only be used in Armata brigades, and that in Kurganets and Boomerang-25 brigades they would use the wheeled version. For the Boomerang-10 brigades I rather suspect they will rely on the 120mm rifled gun/mortar for fire support.

    BTW nice find TheArmenian... 200km for upgraded Smerch... that is impressive. They were talking about 120-150km with fold out wings to extend range, but 200km is a real leap in performance.



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    Shadåw

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  Shadåw on Wed Oct 10, 2012 11:46 pm

    http://en.rian.ru/video/20121009/176505602.html
    I know this one was linked. On page two but this is in english rather then russian.

    Enjoy : o
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    Russian Patriot

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  Russian Patriot on Thu Oct 11, 2012 12:38 am

    Shadåw wrote:http://en.rian.ru/video/20121009/176505602.html
    I know this one was linked. On page two but this is in english rather then russian.

    Enjoy : o

    Thanks Shadaw , gets my vote..
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    AZZKIKR

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  AZZKIKR on Fri Oct 12, 2012 6:14 pm

    Just a slight observation, the chassis the Coalition uses has 7 roadwheels, compared to the 6 we saw on the support Armata. Perhaps the coalition uses a lengthened Armata chassis?
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    Zivo

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  Zivo on Sat Oct 13, 2012 1:19 am

    The model is not based on Armata's chassis, but 195's.
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    flamming_python

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  flamming_python on Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:46 pm

    TR1 wrote:Can't say I like the concept of the wheeled Armata; just don't see the use of it in mechanized formations.

    You mean a wheeled Coalition-SV, right? There is no such thing as a wheeled Armata.

    In which case let me ask you this; what possible good would a tracked Coalition-SV be - in a wheeled brigade?

    Zivo wrote:The model is not based on Armata's chassis, but 195's.

    Man this crap just gets more confusing by the day.

    Why would this bureau be interesting in putting the Coalition-SV on the Object 195 platform; when in fact the Armata chassis is what it's supposed to be based on?

    Or do they just not want to show a mock-up of the Armata yet, so they just made a mock-up based on the Ob. 195? I was under the impression that the Armata has already been revealed more or less by now anyway though.
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    Zivo

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  Zivo on Mon Oct 15, 2012 2:05 pm

    Because they probably had this model sitting in storage for a few years.
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    GarryB

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  GarryB on Tue Oct 16, 2012 6:16 am

    Just a slight observation, the chassis the Coalition uses has 7 roadwheels, compared to the 6 we saw on the support Armata. Perhaps the coalition uses a lengthened Armata chassis?

    To clarify the model shown of the Coalition has 7 road wheels, compared with 6 shown in the electronic models on armata platforms.

    We have already been told there are two armata vehicle designs... one with the engine at the front and one with the engine at the rear. A front mounted engine is needed for the IFV model and would be useful in the artillery model because it would make loading easier.

    Why would this bureau be interesting in putting the Coalition-SV on the Object 195 platform; when in fact the Armata chassis is what it's supposed to be based on?

    The T-99 will have a lot of features from the T-95.

    I rather suspect however it was more a case that the model for the Coalition was originally based on the T-95 chassis, and upgrades to the Coalition (which is a turret) don't effect the chassis so they left that as is.

    In both cases the T-95 and T-99 are MBT level armoured vehicles with all three crew in the front hull with an unmanned turret.

    Armata Coalition might have a front mounted engine or it might not... the point is the models are to show the turret, not the chassis.



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    Zivo

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  Zivo on Tue Oct 16, 2012 9:03 pm

    Regarding coalition's configuration, remember these renderings?






    I'm not saying they're accurate in away way, but the front engine hull is used on Coalition model.

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  Shafster on Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:34 am



    Is it me or the gun system appears to be mounted on a m1931 203mm howitzer chassis xD
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    GarryB

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  GarryB on Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:44 am

    Is it me or the gun system appears to be mounted on a m1931 203mm howitzer chassis xD


    The gun is actually a 152mm gun called Koalition-SG and is the topic of this thread.

    It will likely also replace the Bereg coastal artillery system with GLONASS guided shells with a range of 70km.

    All those chassis are the same, it is the turrets and systems that are different.

    It would actually be interesting to speculate if they are going to have special brigades with heavy artillery like the 203mm guns and of course the 240mm Mortars they currently operate. They seemed to like the heavy mortars in mountainous country like the 160mm mortar that was kept for mountain units.


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    Sunehvm

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  Sunehvm on Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:59 am

    Unnmannng Arms. Makain New Gun. CanOpenenr3
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    GarryB

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  GarryB on Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:24 am

    All the new Russian vehicles will likely apply the concept of unmanned turrets with the crew in hull positions under the heaviest armour on the vehicle with the weapons and ammo separated from the crew compartments.

    The result should be safer soldiers and crew... with the potential for easily adapting the vehicles to unmanned designs due to the digital nature of their design.


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    collegeboy16

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  collegeboy16 on Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:06 am

    GarryB wrote:
    The result should be safer soldiers and crew... with the potential for easily adapting the vehicles to unmanned designs due to the digital nature of their design.
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    Zivo

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  Zivo on Thu Dec 20, 2012 6:52 am

    GarryB wrote:All the new Russian vehicles will likely apply the concept of unmanned turrets with the crew in hull positions under the heaviest armour on the vehicle with the weapons and ammo separated from the crew compartments.

    The result should be safer soldiers and crew... with the potential for easily adapting the vehicles to unmanned designs due to the digital nature of their design.

    It's much more intimidating to see a full size tank acting on its own than the cute unmanned ground vehicles some army's are going for today.
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    GarryB

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  GarryB on Thu Dec 20, 2012 7:34 am

    AFAIK some Russian Engineer vehicles already are able to be remote controlled on the battlefield for finding mines, or fording places in rivers.

    I think the IMR-3 can already do this and I suspect the new armoured vehicles will have even better capabilities in this regard.... like plotting their position on a digital map and transmitting video and other information to the control position.


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    Zivo

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  Zivo on Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:26 am

    Armata is digital and I'm almost 100% it will operate with a complete drive-by-wire system by 2015. It won't matter if the input is from the sensors in the hull, i.e. the steering wheel, pedals, etc or from 2,000 miles away controlled by a crew in the back of a trailer.
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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  GarryB on Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:32 am

    The crew positions down in the hull means to operate the vehicles properly they need an array of cameras to give decent situational awareness. With such camera feeds giving such a good clear view it really doesn't matter whether the crew is in that vehicle or is somewhere else.

    I will keep an eye on the graphics detail of MMO tank games from Russia... recruitment sites for the Russian military?



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    Sujoy

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    Koalitsiya-SV 152-mm twin-barrel howitzer

    Post  Sujoy on Sat Apr 20, 2013 11:53 am

    The Koalitsiya-SV 152-mm twin-barrel howitzer, based on the KamAZ-6560 platform, will premiere at the famed Nizhny Tagil tank show this September according to Izvestiya.




    The Russian Defence Ministry has launched a programme to gradually replace tracked artillery pieces in its arsenal with wheeled types. Russia's first wheeled howitzer will be revealed to the public at the REA 2013 international military equipment exhibition in Nizhny Tagil in September.
    KamAZ spokesman Oleg Afanasyev told Izvestiya that the new howitzer will be based on the four-axle KamAZ-6560 truck, which has a history of construction and military applications. The platform underwent minor modifications to accommodate the Koalitsiya piece, including the installation of a more powerful engine and a reinforced frame  to withstand the recoil.

    "This is essentially the platform used in the Pantsir-S SAM system," Afanasyev explained. "It meets the factory and military specifications. It is also in production, which means there will be no production-entry hiccoughs."
    According to Afanasyev, a prototype Koalitsiya platform has been shipped to the Motovilikhinskiye Zavody factory in Perm in Russian Urals, which manufactures the howitzer. Factory testing of the complete item is expected to last until late 2015, and will lead up to the official commissioning of the new weapon.
    The new howitzer will reportedly be fully automatic, meaning that the crew will remain in the armoured cab for the loading and firing sequence.


    Sources at the Defence Ministry told Izvestiya that the howitzer is primarily intended as an asset for assault and light mountain brigades, which require mobility and high road speeds. Lesser-priority recipients are medium brigades, which currently use wheeled armoured personnel carriers (APC) instead of tracked infantry fighting vehicles to transport personnel. Heavy brigades are expected to be armed with tracked vehicles, which are normally better armoured than wheeled vehicles.

    Sources at the Missile Troops and Artillery Department of the Russian Ground Troops Command told Izvestiya that the KamAZ-based Koalitsiya howitzer would supplement the previously ordered superlight howitzer.
    Independent military expert Vyacheslav Tseluyko says the Koalitsiya howitser will find limited use.

    "This type of howitzer would best fit the needs of medium brigades with APCs, whose high share of wheeled vehicles and fairly high marching speed would warrant the addition of such an asset," he explains. "Tracked Msta-S howitzers or towed Msta-B howitzers would slow down the advance of a marching convoy within such units. On the other hand, the howitzer would prove useless for light brigades because it is too big to fit into an Mi-26 [transport helicopter], which is a mandatory parameter for light weapons [operated under the Russian military system]."
    Tseluyko also notes that the Russian Ground Troops have previously attempted to develop a wheeled howitzer with the Msta-K barrel, but failed because the wheels were not sturdy enough to withstand the recoil loads.
    The Koalitsiya-SV howitzer was developed by Nizhny Novgorod-based Burevestnik research institute, and entered production at Motovilikhinskiye Zavody in Perm.

    Mock-ups of Koalitsiya family artillery systems, to be based on various chassis, were first demonstrated during Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin's visit to Perm in July 2012.
    It was at that time that Motovilikhinskiye Zavody proposed its grounds as the venue for a federal centre of innovative artillery technology, which was expected at the time to include Burevestnik and Yekaterinburg-based Artillery Plant No 9.

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  ali.a.r on Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:03 pm

    Reminds me of the Czech Dana artillery in Wargame: European Escalation.

    Any chance this was inspired by such a system?
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    GarryB

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  GarryB on Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:28 pm

    Will be interesting to see if it has one barrel or two.

    Part of the weight loss program for the tracked version involved the removal of the second barrel and its associated dual feed autoloader.

    Interesting that this is going to be a wheeled version to operate with Boomerang brigades... impressive fire power addition, though I would not be surprised if it had less powerful ammo... no need for a light highly mobile force to fire at targets 70km away normally.


    Any chance this was inspired by such a system?

    No. They are developing new vehicle families in a brigade structure... when you create a wheeled family of vehicles like Boomerang, it makes sense to have all the vehicles that operate with it to also be wheeled so they have similar mobility characteristics.

    The S-300 family of SAM systems is truck based because its mobility on roads is more relevant than its cross country mobility. The S-300V on the other hand is an Army system that needs to move with tanks and other vehicles so the S-300V family of vehicles are all tracked including the radar and support vehicles.

    This vehicle is wheeled, not because the DANA or the South African G6 (both very good vehicles BTW) are wheeled, but because all the other vehicles it will be operating with will be wheeled.


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    Regular

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  Regular on Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:31 pm

    ali.a.r wrote:Reminds me of the Czech Dana artillery in Wargame: European Escalation.

    Any chance this was inspired by such a system?
    Artillery and even mortars on trucks is very old thing. Shoot and scoot. You are long gone before counter arty shoots salvo towards You.. and there is no need for perfect roads.. It is Kamaz Smile

    ali.a.r

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  ali.a.r on Sat Apr 20, 2013 1:32 pm

    Aah. Thanks for the clarification.

    This vehicle is wheeled, not because the DANA or the South African G6 (both very good vehicles BTW) are wheeled, but because all the other vehicles it will be operating with will be wheeled.

    So this gun itself is standard for everyone, its just the chassis they are built on thats different?

    BTW, the reason I brought up the DANA was that it kinda looks like it. dunno

    Or maybe Im just too obsessed with it. Embarassed
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    GarryB

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  GarryB on Sun Apr 21, 2013 5:20 am

    Nothing wrong with being obsessed with the Dana... it is an excellent vehicle/system. The South African G6 is even better in the fact that it has been made mine resistant and has excellent range.

    This new Russian artillery system however is going to be their standard turret, which by the way is completely unmanned and fully automatic, for a range of suitable platforms.

    In the heavy tracked version (armata chassis) all the crew sit in the hull just like in the MBT version.

    This suggests to me a standard turret... even the naval model should be able to be fitted to a vessel fairly easily though I would expect far more sophisticated stabilisation systems as the naval model needs to fire while moving,... will be fitted to a range of platforms and for certain locations would be ideal as a fixed system like the do with tank turrets for coastal defence.

    I don't think there will be a light wheeled version and the medium wheeled version is clearly going to be truck based rather than crammed into a Boomerang chassis because of the reasons given in the article.

    Think of it along the lines of the air defence vehicles... the Pantsir-S1 in the heavy brigades will simply be a Pantsir-S1 turret mounted on an armata chassis, and the Boomerang and Kurganets chassis likely will also take a similar turret... perhaps with extra gun ammo in the rear hull compartments. The light Typhoon model might have one gun and perhaps a reduced number of missiles or it might have a different turret with different missiles like SOSNA-R to reduce weight yet retain range exceeding that of MANPADS.

    An option might be a hybrid system with vertical launch tubes able to fire the new Morphei IIR guided missiles, plus a mix of the very cheap TOR missiles in their latest models and perhaps TOR missiles with ARH seekers with a fire and forget capability...

    The current gun artillery system is MSTA, which is based on the T-80 chassis, so it can have similar mobility to the tanks it operates with. The logical extension of that would be if there were BMP and BTR brigades that a BMP and BTR based model would make sense to give it the mobility to keep up with the vehicles it is operating with. The problem is that both the BTR and BMP would be too light to carry such a powerful weapon so they have substituted the wheeled version with a truck based version. To operate with the BMPs they would likely use a T-80 based model and accept the different engine and components, but starting from scratch they will likely develop the much heavier Kurganets chassis to allow it to use the bigger gun in an artillery vehicle.


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