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    2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

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    TR1
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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  TR1 on Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:46 am

    Can't say I like the concept of the wheeled Armata; just don't see the use of it in mechanized formations.

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  TheArmenian on Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:50 am

    Wheeled version could be for coastal defence (Bereg replacement) and for Boomerang only equipped lighter brigades.

    By the way the range of Tornado-S (Smerch replacement) is said to be 200 km.

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  GarryB on Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:03 am

    Can't say I like the concept of the wheeled Armata; just don't see the use of it in mechanized formations.

    By definition we are not talking about a wheeled armata. Armata by definition is a heavy tracked vehicle chassis with mobility and protection levels in the MBT range.

    A wheeled Koalition can be used in independent artillery brigades... with a range of 70km it doesn't need to operate very close to the units it is supporting and therefore could forgo the requirements for protection.

    In terms of costs a wheeled Koalition will be much much cheaper to buy and to operate and maintain, and while tactical mobility cross country would suffer, its theatre mobility would be impressive.

    I rather suspect that the armata based Koalition would only be used in Armata brigades, and that in Kurganets and Boomerang-25 brigades they would use the wheeled version. For the Boomerang-10 brigades I rather suspect they will rely on the 120mm rifled gun/mortar for fire support.

    BTW nice find TheArmenian... 200km for upgraded Smerch... that is impressive. They were talking about 120-150km with fold out wings to extend range, but 200km is a real leap in performance.



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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  Mindstorm on Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:22 am

    By the way the range of Tornado-S (Smerch replacement) is said to be 200 km.


    Ehm....not.


    It actually said that ,already today ,them managed to give to ammunitions of Smerch system a range of 200 km.

    It is a statement released only to render the idea of the level of improvement in range that is possible to achieve (with the application of those domestic up to date technological solutions even to existing systems) with MLRS in this caliber.

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  TheArmenian on Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:09 am

    Mindstorm wrote:
    By the way the range of Tornado-S (Smerch replacement) is said to be 200 km.


    Ehm....not.


    It actually said that ,already today ,them managed to give to ammunitions of Smerch system a range of 200 km.

    It is a statement released only to render the idea of the level of improvement in range that is possible to achieve (with the application of those domestic up to date technological solutions even to existing systems) with MLRS in this caliber.

    Thanks for the correction.
    I hope the extra range is achieved without reducing the size of the warhead.

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  Mindstorm on Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:16 pm



    Thanks for the correction.

    It is simply a clarification and also one i root for particularly Wink


    I have several times stressed out that almost the totality of parametrical figures circulating on public accessible media about Russian weaponry (even on producer's sites or brochures... Wink ) are always refered to export versions of those systems or very outdated versions of the same systems , for which the revelation of the specifics don't represent anymore a damage or effective reduction of theirs potential, and tactical surprise's edge, in an eventual operational employment against a major enemy.

    In the past years i was literally amused to read, in silence, the comical theories and auto-referential "analysis" (often by part of subjects even selling themselves as experts Laughing ) proposing systems comparisons or tactical scenarios where the crushing advantages in : speed, manoeuvrability, target designation, independent adaptive/cooperative attack profile and inbuilt ECCM measures of Russian cruise missiles like “Kaliber” or “Oniks was.....supposedly....“counterbalanced” by the huge range difference boasted by Western cruise missiles like TLAM-C/D 1200/1600 km against the only...300 km....of Kaliber and Oniks Razz Razz

    The same phenomenon happened with the supposed range of BM-30 and its competitors : BM-30 was since its introduction ,by a very wide margin, the most advanced and devastating MLRS worldwide in its category.
    In the latest years ,however, in several western publications or by part of mercenary journalists - profusely paid to "bash" and tarnish anywhere possible (even plainly subverting cold parameters !) the reputation of Russian weapons to break its link with historical friend Nations ,such as India - the....supposed....range of "Smerch" has been attacked from any direction (at example claiming that the latest version of its Chinese copied version -the PHL03- had much greater engagement range (140 km) than the up to date original in Russian ; naturally Reality is very far from those highly biased and vested positions.



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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  TR1 on Wed Oct 10, 2012 7:15 am

    Unfortunately as in many cases, I have to ask the question: do any of the Smerch units actually have the extended range munitions?

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  Mindstorm on Wed Oct 10, 2012 7:38 pm



    Unfortunately as in many cases, I have to ask the question: do any of the Smerch units actually have the extended range munitions?


    Try to ask to yourself the complementary question to this one (you will receive a response much more close to reality...):

    "How much units of 9A52 ,if any, remain today -2012- at still employ the original ammunition developed more than 20 years ago ?"


    Even more you could ask to yourself this other simple question:

    "The range figures i have found in all those years on FSUE "Splav" charts or in its same site (for not say Rosoboronexport's brochures... Wink ) ,and obviously reported in any public accesible media, has been ever representative of domestic version of those MLRS's rocket/missiles ?"

    If you want to aid yourself in finding a response you could try that : select any weapon of which ,at today, you are aware of any parametrical difference between the domestic and the export version and check what figure,between the two, is always reported on the maker's "official" site or charts..... Wink


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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  TR1 on Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:26 pm

    Of course - but the fact remains- Russian industry has had no problem making innovative and excellent weapons and munitions, that have barely seen actually unit delivery- or have been delivered in anemic numbers. See tank ammunition, precision munitions in AF units, precision artillery rounds, AAMs etc etc.

    I can't help but to remain unconvinced 200km munitions are in any widespread service.

    I would love to be proved wrong!

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  Shadåw on Wed Oct 10, 2012 11:46 pm

    http://en.rian.ru/video/20121009/176505602.html
    I know this one was linked. On page two but this is in english rather then russian.

    Enjoy : o

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  Russian Patriot on Thu Oct 11, 2012 12:38 am

    Shadåw wrote:http://en.rian.ru/video/20121009/176505602.html
    I know this one was linked. On page two but this is in english rather then russian.

    Enjoy : o

    Thanks Shadaw , gets my vote..

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  Mindstorm on Thu Oct 11, 2012 1:07 am



    Of course - but the fact remains- Russian industry has had no problem making innovative and excellent weapons and munitions, that have barely seen actually unit delivery- or have been delivered in anemic numbers. See tank ammunition, precision munitions in AF units, precision artillery rounds, AAMs etc etc.

    I can't help but to remain unconvinced 200km munitions are in any widespread service.


    Exist only two main factors contributing to the....at least apparent....scarce ,widespread presence of up-to-date ammunitions among Russian Army and Air Force units in PEACETIME stance :

    1) A truly IMMNESE amount of ammunitions (literally of any type and for any branch of the Armed Forces) inherited from URSS, majority of which with a significative residual operative live and the number and characteristics of which represent still today even an huge overkill against virtually all likely conventional enemy.

    2) The strongly rooted habit (also that inherited from cardinal principles of Soviet Military Doctrine) at information's corruption and denial , through or the controled "leaks" to opposing sides of staged technical documentation or downgraded specimens (in URSS times the so called monkey models) or the direct subtraction ,until possible, from enemy Intel's echelons even of the same physical specimens of the most critical systems (and therefore theirs CONOPS and strong/weak points).


    On the 2008 conflict, for example, has been wrote tons of articles and books but ,up to this time, complementary interests from both parts - Western analysts and Institutions , frustrated by the clamorous Intel's debacle interested ,at least ,in capitalize the instance for attack and attempt to tarnish, as usual, Russian Military's name Razz ,while on the Russian side not only negate to NATO's observers ANY type of information on ANY type of up-to date weaponry or strategic and tactical concept of operations but also promote toward internal public opinion the roundness of the ongoing ,military reform and future substantial increase of military spending Wink - has prevented an honest ,realistic analysis to be conducted .




    This conflict ,that we must never forget, was won in only 5 days and at very TRIVIAL costs (you can only image the length and the stellar costs involved if the same conflict would have been conducted by NATO ; only the Air Campaign would have encompassed more than a month and half of operations Laughing ) ; was a clear example of operation attentively prepared and executed mantaining as central requirement systematic information denial toward NATO's observers and ELINT units preset in the theatre, employing not only almost exclusively the most outdated weaponry available to the divisons in the area but limiting or even avoiding completely any "sensible" EM emission (among the crew of the US Navy "aid ship" purposely prepared and sent to the Black Sea ,likely would be manifested ,in those days, a very high amount of cases of mental disorders and manic depressive syndromes Razz Razz Razz )


    In the meantime T-72B..... T-62 and even ....some T-55...was engaging Georgian ground forces, Russian Navy was destroying Georgian unities only with....P-120 Malakhit...and Russian aircraft avoided like hell the use even only of the most outdated versions of Kh-59 miissiles or KAB-L precision bomb series of which exist a stock pile more than sufficient to desroy several times all main military targets in both Europe and USA Smile



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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Thu Oct 11, 2012 1:13 am

    Yes those people on the internetz always claiming that it "took the whole russian army" to defeat "the tiny georgian armed forces" are absolutely hilarious Cool

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  TR1 on Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:28 am

    Mindstorm wrote:


    In the meantime T-72B..... T-62 and even ....some T-55...was engaging Georgian ground forces, Russian Navy was destroying Georgian unities only with....P-120 Malakhit...and Russian aircraft avoided like hell the use even only of the most outdated versions of Kh-59 miissiles or KAB-L precision bomb series of which exist a stock pile more than sufficient to desroy several times all main military targets in both Europe and USA Smile




    I don't disagree with anything, save this: Have we any proof of massive Kh-59 stockpiles?
    Disinformation is one thing, but in recent years we have seen a shocking openness in military procurement, tenders, bloggers visiting bases and newly bought equipment, etc etc. Munition corporations have published their domestic sales figures, I do not recall any significant Kh-59 or similar modern munition purchases.
    Purchases of precision munitions restarted only recently, according to Tactical Missile Corps:

    Kh-31:
    2009: 146 units
    2010: 75 units

    3M-24 (Uran):
    2009: 55 units
    2010: 57 units




    We don't see the missiles used on training exercises at all, our aircraft in 8-8-8 used 95% dumb munitions- and that is not a good scenario! Disinformation goes only so far, but you need to train the pilots and armed forces in regular depoyment of modern munitions. Further, had precision munition units been available for use in the Kavkaz theater (in a few years there will be sufficient Su-34s, Su-25SM3/4s, and Gefets upgraded Su-24s to make this a non-issue)the Georgian defeat would have been even heavier.
    The rapid and utter incompetence of the Georgian army does not mask the valuable and real lessons learned by all branches during the war.
    And it seems the politicians are slowly, learning that starving armed forces of funding to conduct modern operations against any sort of competent enemy will not lead to good results.

    I am hoping the MOD does not cheap out, and the new systems entering service get the munitions that will allow them to reach their full potential.


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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  GarryB on Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:05 am

    I am hoping the MOD does not cheap out, and the new systems entering service get the munitions that will allow them to reach their full potential.

    Well lets face it, the primary user of air launched guided ground attack weapons was the Su-24.

    Now that there are aircraft getting upgrades and of course new aircraft entering service it makes more sense to equip them with guided weapons to maximise performance and keep them safer from ground fire.


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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  AZZKIKR on Fri Oct 12, 2012 6:14 pm

    Just a slight observation, the chassis the Coalition uses has 7 roadwheels, compared to the 6 we saw on the support Armata. Perhaps the coalition uses a lengthened Armata chassis?

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  Zivo on Sat Oct 13, 2012 1:19 am

    The model is not based on Armata's chassis, but 195's.

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  Mindstorm on Sat Oct 13, 2012 1:24 am



    I don't disagree with anything, save this: Have we any proof of massive Kh-59 stockpiles?
    Disinformation is one thing, but in recent years we have seen a shocking openness in military procurement, tenders, bloggers visiting bases and newly bought equipment, etc etc. Munition corporations have published their domestic sales figures, I do not recall any significant Kh-59 or similar modern munition purchases.
    Purchases of precision munitions restarted only recently, according to Tactical Missile Corps:

    Kh-31:
    2009: 146 units
    2010: 75 units

    3M-24 (Uran):
    2009: 55 units
    2010: 57 units



    TR1 something lead me to suspect that you have not a precise idea of what was the level of production of missiles and ammunitions in URSS times (from which come from the fearful stock inherited).

    Only to provide to you a picture ,from open media sources, of the order of measure of which we talk about here i can only recall that ,after end of URSS, only Ukraine had inherited 1612...Kh-55 !!! (a strategic cruise missile immeasurably more costly and slow to produce in respect to tactical missiles......i repeat one more time :this is the residual stock of a strategic range cruise missile only in Ukraine.

    Clear ?



    Those type of orders in the latest years ,just like that highlighted in the Tactical Missile Corporation's annual report (anyhow very ,very, very far from a thruthful source for similar subjects) were obviously never generated by strategic needs ,but merely to mantain open the related production lines and mantain at work the connected specialized personnel.

    This situation is dramatically changed -for ammunitions of any branch of Armed Forces - in latest years, in correspondence with the all-encompassing modernization plan and the completion and appearance of radically improved versions of weapons in any operative segment of employment, for not say of theirs carrying platforms.

    This procurement process ,which follow a strict pyramidal order of priority (from strategic level's elements down up to new type of rifle's cartridges) will see a progressive acceleration in the course of SAP 2020's realization.



    We don't see the missiles used on training exercises at all, our aircraft in 8-8-8 used 95% dumb munitions- and that is not a good scenario! Disinformation goes only so far, but you need to train the pilots and armed forces in regular deployment of modern munitions.


    TR1 do you know the absurd number of KAB-1500/500L and KAB-1500/500Kr ,some of them even near the end of theirs operative live) was available to Russian Air Force in August 2008) ?
    Well , now can you say to me how much of them has been employed ? Wink

    I have named this weapon only to provide an example ,among literally hundreds possible, of the comical absurdity of thesis, present in majority of western media, that attempted to "sell" to public opinion the very strict Intel-denial approach maintained by Russian Armed Forces during the entire operation in 2008 sustaining that Russian aircraft had not used any precision weapon because.....GPS had been rendered unserviceable in the area during the conflict Laughing Laughing Laughing


    TR1 just to provide another piece of puzzle of this subtle ,but crucial, "Elint War" fought during August 2008's conflict i can mention that :

    Montreux Convention limit the tonnage of military ships and submarines of not Black-Sea Powers that can pass the Bosporus Straits and Dardanelles at 45.000 tons in total of which 30.000 maximum from a single nation; moreover the notice of the passage of similar military vessels must be communicated to Turkey more than 15 days before.
    Now, the passage of what ship (moreover occupying 18400 tons of the 30.000 maximum !!) was.....casually....communicated in advance of the conflict to Turkey's authorities and, after, passed as a....cargo ship to bring humanitarian aids to Georgia Laughing ?

    TR1 respond to this question ,in particular examining what type of ship (and among those what ship in particular) US "selected" to carry out just this "humanitarian" mission ; i am sure that ,after, the apparent absurdity of the choice by part of USA to prepare and allow Georgia to embark in this hopeless adventure will find suddenly a clear solid rational foundation.



    Note : Sorry for the late response but ,in the last two days, work has absorbed me completely.



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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  flamming_python on Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:46 pm

    TR1 wrote:Can't say I like the concept of the wheeled Armata; just don't see the use of it in mechanized formations.

    You mean a wheeled Coalition-SV, right? There is no such thing as a wheeled Armata.

    In which case let me ask you this; what possible good would a tracked Coalition-SV be - in a wheeled brigade?

    Zivo wrote:The model is not based on Armata's chassis, but 195's.

    Man this crap just gets more confusing by the day.

    Why would this bureau be interesting in putting the Coalition-SV on the Object 195 platform; when in fact the Armata chassis is what it's supposed to be based on?

    Or do they just not want to show a mock-up of the Armata yet, so they just made a mock-up based on the Ob. 195? I was under the impression that the Armata has already been revealed more or less by now anyway though.

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  Zivo on Mon Oct 15, 2012 2:05 pm

    Because they probably had this model sitting in storage for a few years.

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  GarryB on Tue Oct 16, 2012 6:16 am

    Just a slight observation, the chassis the Coalition uses has 7 roadwheels, compared to the 6 we saw on the support Armata. Perhaps the coalition uses a lengthened Armata chassis?

    To clarify the model shown of the Coalition has 7 road wheels, compared with 6 shown in the electronic models on armata platforms.

    We have already been told there are two armata vehicle designs... one with the engine at the front and one with the engine at the rear. A front mounted engine is needed for the IFV model and would be useful in the artillery model because it would make loading easier.

    Why would this bureau be interesting in putting the Coalition-SV on the Object 195 platform; when in fact the Armata chassis is what it's supposed to be based on?

    The T-99 will have a lot of features from the T-95.

    I rather suspect however it was more a case that the model for the Coalition was originally based on the T-95 chassis, and upgrades to the Coalition (which is a turret) don't effect the chassis so they left that as is.

    In both cases the T-95 and T-99 are MBT level armoured vehicles with all three crew in the front hull with an unmanned turret.

    Armata Coalition might have a front mounted engine or it might not... the point is the models are to show the turret, not the chassis.



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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  Zivo on Tue Oct 16, 2012 9:03 pm

    Regarding coalition's configuration, remember these renderings?






    I'm not saying they're accurate in away way, but the front engine hull is used on Coalition model.

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  Shafster on Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:34 am



    Is it me or the gun system appears to be mounted on a m1931 203mm howitzer chassis xD

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  GarryB on Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:44 am

    Is it me or the gun system appears to be mounted on a m1931 203mm howitzer chassis xD


    The gun is actually a 152mm gun called Koalition-SG and is the topic of this thread.

    It will likely also replace the Bereg coastal artillery system with GLONASS guided shells with a range of 70km.

    All those chassis are the same, it is the turrets and systems that are different.

    It would actually be interesting to speculate if they are going to have special brigades with heavy artillery like the 203mm guns and of course the 240mm Mortars they currently operate. They seemed to like the heavy mortars in mountainous country like the 160mm mortar that was kept for mountain units.


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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  Sunehvm on Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:59 am

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