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    Maritime Patrol Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

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    Rowdyhorse4

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    Re: Maritime Patrol Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  Rowdyhorse4 on Sun Jul 02, 2017 4:42 pm

    GarryB wrote:Turbofans are great for long range high altitude subsonic cruise... turbojets would be good for supersonic flight or less efficient subsonic flight...

    Sorry.... Yeah i meant TurboFan engines... like the Kawasaki F-7.... Seems that newer Medium range ASW have started to use Turbofan more often than Turboprop....

    Militarov wrote:USN claims MAD is of limited use on altitudes P-8 is flying, and that extremly sensitive acoustic sensors they developed are giving far better results.

    MAD sensors becomes ineffective beyond 500 feet altitude from what i heard.... I assume their sensors are upgraded Sonobouys... newer VLAD or DICASS sonobouys maybe?

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    BE-12 to be upgraded..

    Post  mnztr on Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:38 pm

    Hi I am new to this forum and thought this was a really interesting new item on navy recognition, (cannot post links yet)


    The BE-12 is probably quite an unsung platform as it seems like a workhorse that never was a "glamour" platform. It seems to be able to operate in pretty heavy seas. How does it compare to the Shin meiwa?

    I see only 9 are left operating, I assume there must be quite a few still in storage as it would not make sense to engineer an upgrade for 9 frames. Any idea how many may be put back into service?
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    Vladimir79

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    Re: Maritime Patrol Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  Vladimir79 on Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:05 am

    I think I saw one of those at the Air Force museum. That is a good place for it. It will never be brought back and it doesn't compare to any quad engine sea plane. We are currently trying to market the Be-200 but no one wants it. With China and Japan trying to market seaplanes the space is getting too crowded.


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    Re: Maritime Patrol Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  mnztr on Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:03 am

    Vladimir79 wrote:I think I saw one of those at the Air Force museum.  That is a good place for it.  It will never be brought back and it doesn't compare to any quad engine sea plane.  We are currently trying to market the Be-200 but no one wants it.  With China and Japan trying to market seaplanes the space is getting too crowded.  

    Why do you need more then 2 engines? All the latest airliners have 2 engines. For MAritime patrol the US uses the P3 based on the Lockheed Electra and now being replaced by the P8 based on the almost as ancient 737!!! The BE 200 cannot handle high seastate and I don't believe it is a good choice of MPA due to lack of loiter time, although I am not 100% sure on this as so little data is available.
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    Vladimir79

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    Re: Maritime Patrol Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  Vladimir79 on Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:59 pm

    mnztr wrote:

    Why do you need more then 2 engines? All the latest airliners have 2 engines. For MAritime patrol the US uses the P3 based on the Lockheed Electra and now being replaced by the P8 based on the almost as ancient 737!!! The BE 200 cannot handle high seastate and I don't believe it is a good choice of MPA due to lack of loiter time, although I am not 100% sure on this as so little data is available.

    You cannot operate turbofans in high sea state which is why Chinese and Japanese seaplanes are quad engine turboprops. We do not use Be200 as MPA for the vary reasons you state. Seaplanes in general seem to be going to the way of the Dodo.


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    Re: Maritime Patrol Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  mnztr on Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:06 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    mnztr wrote:

    Why do you need more then 2 engines? All the latest airliners have 2 engines. For MAritime patrol the US uses the P3 based on the Lockheed Electra and now being replaced by the P8 based on the almost as ancient 737!!! The BE 200 cannot handle high seastate and I don't believe it is a good choice of MPA due to lack of loiter time, although I am not 100% sure on this as so little data is available.

    You cannot operate turbofans in high sea state which is why Chinese and Japanese seaplanes are quad engine turboprops.  We do not use Be200 as MPA for the vary reasons you state.  Seaplanes in general seem to be going to the way of the Dodo.    

    Nothing to do with the use of turbofans, but take off and landing speeds, and runway req. The Shin Meiwa has a 5th engine specifically to create boundary layer airflow. It can fly extremely slow and land in 10ft waves as a result. The BE 12 can handle 4ft waves the 200 the same. But the BE-12 probably has a shorter take off but I do not have the data to confirm.

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    GarryB

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    Re: Maritime Patrol Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:28 am

    Maritime patrol aircraft perform lots of roles, but the only role where actually landing on the water would be of any use would be search and rescue... and in that role it is just as easy to drop an inflatable rescue pod as to land.

    There are aerodynamic and structural costs and huge operational costs to landing an aircraft in sea water... to land in water you need to have the right shape... a shape not the most efficient for flying through the air. You also need to position the engines to keep them out of the sea spray which is not ideal... just look at any civilian airliner... they have underwing pods because that is the easiest place to put them for easy access to service and maintain them.

    So immediately you reduce flight range and speed for the ability to land in the water.

    They will have decades of statistics of the operational use of MPA and sea planes and they can see for themselves how often landing on water was needed or useful and they can judge for themselves what is useful or not.

    For fire fighting being able to scoop up water from a nearby lake is very useful but MPAs don't need to do that.

    I would have thought being able to land an aircraft on the sea surface would allow the use of variable depth sonar of a much higher quality than expendable sonar (if you make them too sensitive then they become too expensive to be expendable...)

    Of course if you are searching a huge area then you can cover more area faster dropping expendable sonar buoys all over the place than landing and using dipping sonar.

    Personally I think the Tu-214 will become a widely used MPA, or perhaps the Il-214, and the Il-112 will be used for shorter ranged operations and UAVs will be adapted for the role near friendly ships...

    I would love to see them reactivate the A-42 and fit it with more powerful new engines so the four engine design can be changed to a twin engine design... even if it is fitted with propfans...


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    Vladimir79

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    Re: Maritime Patrol Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  Vladimir79 on Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:06 pm

    mnztr wrote:

    Nothing to do with the use of turbofans, but take off and landing speeds, and runway req. The Shin Meiwa has a 5th engine specifically to create boundary layer airflow. It can fly extremely slow and land in 10ft waves as a result. The BE 12 can handle 4ft waves  the 200 the same. But the BE-12 probably has a shorter take off but I do not have the data to confirm.

    It's takeoff and landing speeds is directly related to its choice of engines as is it's hull form which determines its sea worthiness in high sea state.  If you pick turbofans you have to make certain aerodynamic choices differently than if you pick turboprops and unfortunately for Be200 they made the wrong choice. But then it doesn't look like anyone even cares about seaplanes now.


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    Re: Maritime Patrol Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  mnztr on Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:09 am

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    mnztr wrote:

    Nothing to do with the use of turbofans, but take off and landing speeds, and runway req. The Shin Meiwa has a 5th engine specifically to create boundary layer airflow. It can fly extremely slow and land in 10ft waves as a result. The BE 12 can handle 4ft waves  the 200 the same. But the BE-12 probably has a shorter take off but I do not have the data to confirm.

    It's takeoff and landing speeds is directly related to its choice of engines as is it's hull form which determines its sea worthiness in high sea state.  If you pick turbofans you have to make certain aerodynamic choices differently than if you pick turboprops and unfortunately for Be200 they made the wrong choice.  But then it doesn't look like anyone even cares about seaplanes now.

    No one cares about sea  planes? Did you not hear about the Avic AG600?

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    Re: Maritime Patrol Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  mnztr on Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:11 am

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    mnztr wrote:

    Nothing to do with the use of turbofans, but take off and landing speeds, and runway req. The Shin Meiwa has a 5th engine specifically to create boundary layer airflow. It can fly extremely slow and land in 10ft waves as a result. The BE 12 can handle 4ft waves  the 200 the same. But the BE-12 probably has a shorter take off but I do not have the data to confirm.

    It's takeoff and landing speeds is directly related to its choice of engines as is it's hull form which determines its sea worthiness in high sea state.  If you pick turbofans you have to make certain aerodynamic choices differently than if you pick turboprops and unfortunately for Be200 they made the wrong choice.  But then it doesn't look like anyone even cares about seaplanes now.

    No take off and landing speeds are related to lift vs weight, aerofoil and high lift devices. The Shin Meiwa has special blow flaps so it can land and take off at a very low speed. Engines only help you get to takeoff speed sooner, but its the wings that generate the lift.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Maritime Patrol Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:16 am

    The A-42, which the Be-200 is based on has four engines... two large external turbofans and two small booster jet engines used on takeoff to enhance power.

    Later models were shown with upgraded PS90 engines and certainly some of the new engines they are developing would also allow the two extra hidden engines to be removed... which should improve performance by removing a bit of dead weight.

    One model shown had the main rear engines replaced with propfans (like the An-70).

    It is still a very niche design that will never be produced in hundreds of aircraft let alone thousands.


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    Isos

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    Re: Maritime Patrol Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  Isos on Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:33 am

    Nice animation of IL 114 ASW plane:

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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Maritime Patrol Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:22 am

    Isos wrote:Nice animation of IL 114 ASW plane:

    If they can develop ASW aircraft out of Il114 and build them in numbers it will both solve plenty of headaches​ for Navy and save them loads of cash
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    eehnie

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    Re: Maritime Patrol Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  eehnie on Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:27 pm

    Isos wrote:Nice animation of IL 114 ASW plane:


    Source of the video?
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    George1

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    Re: Maritime Patrol Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  George1 on Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:36 pm

    its an illustration guys, nothing more. I had seen it days ago thats why i didnt post it


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    Isos

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    Re: Maritime Patrol Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  Isos on Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:05 pm

    eehnie wrote:
    Isos wrote:Nice animation of IL 114 ASW plane:


    Source of the video?

    No source. Just random video on youtubei found.
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    eehnie

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    Re: Maritime Patrol Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  eehnie on Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:19 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Isos wrote:Nice animation of IL 114 ASW plane:

    If they can develop ASW aircraft out of Il114 and build them in numbers it will both solve plenty of headaches​ for Navy and save them loads of cash

    On range (combat radious roughly the half):
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilyushin_Il-114#Specifications_(Il-114)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilyushin_Il-18#Specifications_(Il-18D)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilyushin_Il-38#Specifications_(Il-38)

    Weak solutions, pro-Western commenters cheers cheers cheers
    Strong solutions, pro-Western commenters angry angry angry

    The test works again.

    Unfortunately for them the Russian Armed Forces and Ilyushin have better things to do.

    Peŕrier

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    Re: Maritime Patrol Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  Peŕrier on Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:59 pm

    I agree, Il-114 as a ASW platform is almost a joke.

    At best, it could be used to secure surrounding waters at Nuclear subs bases, but nothing more.

    Still Russia has to choose in a short time a successor for the Il-18, because the most modern aircrafts, with their large part of composites in the airframe, are not easily convertible to anything else than their original mission.

    It would need to really know all the design details to assess whether it is a possible candidate, but just as a mere hypothesis I would vote for a Tu-204 derivative.

    The pros are commonality with several special missions aircrafts already operated, an all metal airframe easing structural modifications, reasonable operating range, good internal volumes, quietness for crew's own comfort, good payload.

    It could be developed into two versions, a full fledged ASW version with the whole sensors suite, sonobuoys discharge system, maybe internal weapon bay for torpedoes and depth charges, plus external pylons for additional payloads, like drop tanks, Elint/ECM/EW/Suirveillance pods, AShMs and so on.

    A second version specialized on long range SAR, that will become very interesting to have if the northern route will gain popularity in the shipping market.

    Of course, all of this would be possible only if Tu-204 is actually at ease flying most of its life low and slow upon the oceans.
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    Re: Maritime Patrol Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:55 pm

    What about an MC-21 or Il-96 derivative?
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    George1

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    Re: Maritime Patrol Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  George1 on Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:22 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:What about an MC-21 or Il-96 derivative?

    Il-96 too heavy class


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    Peŕrier

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    Re: Maritime Patrol Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  Peŕrier on Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:23 pm

    An Il-96 derivative would be simply too huge.

    Theoretically it would be in the same class of a Tu-142, absolutely useless for any standard ASW and SAR duty, and insanely expensive to operate in those missions.

    The only mission I would see for an Il-96 would be as a very large tanker to refuel russian strategic lift fleet.

    While Il-78s are good to refuel fighters and tactical aircrafts, to refuel Il-76s, Tu-22 and the likes I would see an aircraft like the Il-96 better suited, the more if supporting large scale redeployments in foreign countries.

    Think of a massive air bridge involving not a single freight aircraft now and then, but half a dozen Il-76s and An-124s flying together day by day, maybe with escorts, to support a foreign country in critical situations.

    The amount of fuel to unload would be so huge to make a tanker version of Il-96 more efficient than Il-78s.

    MS-21 would likely be a nightmare, it is a new blank sheet project, meaning there is still absolutely zero feedback available on any conceivable real world performance in terms of dependability, tear and wear, hiccups and whatsoever, and even worst its airframe is made of a large percentage of composites.

    Composites are just the wrong materials for both structural modifications and day by day demanding operations.

    Any suspected damage would require special nondestructive test equipment just to assess actual status of any structural component involved, being the suspect event a landing exceeding maximum G allowed, a flight amidst a storm stronger than allowed by design parameters, any foreign object hitting against a wing or a stabilizer or a mishap during ground handling.

    Composites are not always a safe choice, particularly when choosing an aircraft to be converted to a whole new role.
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    Militarov

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    Re: Maritime Patrol Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  Militarov on Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:37 pm

    Peŕrier wrote:I agree, Il-114 as a ASW platform is almost a joke.

    At best, it could be used to secure surrounding waters at Nuclear subs bases, but nothing more.

    Still Russia has to choose in a short time a successor for the Il-18, because the most modern aircrafts, with their large part of composites in the airframe, are not easily convertible to anything else than their original mission.

    It would need to really know all the design details to assess whether it is a possible candidate, but just as a mere hypothesis I would vote for a Tu-204 derivative.

    The pros are commonality with several special missions aircrafts already operated, an all metal airframe easing structural modifications, reasonable operating range, good internal volumes, quietness for crew's own comfort, good payload.

    It could be developed into two versions, a full fledged ASW version with the whole sensors suite, sonobuoys discharge system, maybe internal weapon bay for torpedoes and depth charges, plus external pylons for additional payloads, like drop tanks, Elint/ECM/EW/Suirveillance pods, AShMs and so on.

    A second version specialized on long range SAR, that will become very interesting to have if the northern route will gain popularity in the shipping market.

    Of course, all of this would be possible only if Tu-204 is actually at ease flying most of its life low and slow upon the oceans.

    Well you have C295MPA which is fairly similar platform. And if you recall there was IL-76 based SAR naval variant project which was supposed to drop supplies, rafts etc into the sea as fast response.
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    Militarov

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    Re: Maritime Patrol Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  Militarov on Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:43 pm

    Peŕrier wrote:An Il-96 derivative would be simply too huge.

    Theoretically it would be in the same class of a Tu-142, absolutely useless for any standard ASW and SAR duty, and insanely expensive to operate in those missions.

    The only mission I would see for an Il-96 would be as a very large tanker to refuel russian strategic lift fleet.

    While Il-78s are good to refuel fighters and tactical aircrafts, to refuel Il-76s, Tu-22 and the likes I would see an aircraft like the Il-96 better suited, the more if supporting large scale redeployments in foreign countries.

    Think of a massive air bridge involving not a single freight aircraft now and then, but half a dozen Il-76s and An-124s flying together day by day, maybe with escorts, to support a foreign country in critical situations.

    The amount of fuel to unload would be so huge to make a tanker version of Il-96 more efficient than Il-78s.

    MS-21 would likely be a nightmare, it is a new blank sheet project, meaning there is still absolutely zero feedback available on any conceivable real world performance in terms of dependability, tear and wear, hiccups and whatsoever, and even worst its airframe is made of a large percentage of composites.

    Composites are just the wrong materials for both structural modifications and day by day demanding operations.

    Any suspected damage would require special nondestructive test equipment just to assess actual status of any structural component involved, being the suspect event a landing exceeding maximum G allowed, a flight amidst a storm stronger than allowed by design parameters, any foreign object hitting against a wing or a stabilizer or a mishap during ground handling.

    Composites are not always a safe choice, particularly when choosing an aircraft to be converted to a whole new role.

    Depends on composite. We tested certain materials here in one company, of Israeli origin which is used in aircraft and UAV production, erosion of damaged areas and heat threatment with application of fixtures, you can literally fix mechanical damage of immense proportions in matter of days if not hours. Naturally i ignore here issues of cabling etc which prolong the process.

    Times of full riveting of steel are gone i am afraid.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Maritime Patrol Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:33 am

    Peŕrier wrote:

    MS-21 would likely be a nightmare, it is a new blank sheet project, meaning there is still absolutely zero feedback available on any conceivable real world performance in terms of dependability, tear and wear, hiccups and whatsoever, and even worst its airframe is made of a large percentage of composites.

    Composites are just the wrong materials for both structural modifications and day by day demanding operations.

    Any suspected damage would require special nondestructive test equipment just to assess actual status of any structural component involved, being the suspect event a landing exceeding maximum G allowed, a flight amidst a storm stronger than allowed by design parameters, any foreign object hitting against a wing or a stabilizer or a mishap during ground handling.

    Composites are not always a safe choice, particularly when choosing an aircraft to be converted to a whole new role.

    Well so you know it but neither Russian nor American neither European planners dont? and in passenger traffic you dont need to do so? of coruse not to mention thet Boeing 37 MAX or new airbus has plenty of composites.

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    Re: Maritime Patrol Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  Peŕrier on Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:12 am

    Yes, riveting era is coming to an end, but just not yet.
    Both civilian and military aircrafts made largely from composites require highly specialized equipment to assess actual parts' integrity and condition after suspect events.

    It is true for A350 and B787 operations in the commercial aviation industry, It is true for NH-90 in the military world, to name just a few cases.

    And while metal structures could sometimes just be cut or bolt on to perform a modification, load bearing composite structures sometimes have to be just swapped with new redesigned ones.

    The US chose the B737 as a platform for the P-8A because of the proven design, the large civilian operating base, AND the ease of conversion and maintenance, and being an almost all metal aircraft plays a big role in the ease of conversion and maintenance.

    Airbus as well has several times proposed its A31x/A32x family as a base for both AWACS and ASW versions.

    Tu-204 falls just in the same Class, It is a proven design even if built in small numbers and modifications should be relatively easy judging by the number of special versions already developed from It.

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