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    ASW Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

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    Militarov

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    Re: ASW Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  Militarov on Sun May 29, 2016 6:41 pm

    VladimirSahin wrote:I see, so basically not capable enough to find modern US subs as in the way US ASW air craft can find Russian subs.

    I see problem abit different, problem is the number of platforms that Russia has. There are very few ASW and maritime patrol aircraft in Russian inventory in general.

    Atm in US there are like 100 P3 Orion variants, about 40 or so P8A with 120ish in total on order. Japan for an example also has almost 150 maritime patrol/ASW aircraft and nearly 100 P3s...
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    VladimirSahin

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    Re: ASW Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  VladimirSahin on Sun May 29, 2016 9:21 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    VladimirSahin wrote:I see, so basically not capable enough to find modern US subs as in the way US ASW air craft can find Russian subs.

    I see problem abit different, problem is the number of platforms that Russia has. There are very few ASW and maritime patrol aircraft in Russian inventory in general.

    Atm in US there are like 100 P3 Orion variants, about 40 or so P8A with 120ish in total on order. Japan for an example also has almost 150 maritime patrol/ASW aircraft and nearly 100 P3s...

    F*** sanctions Laughing
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    max steel

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    Re: ASW Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  max steel on Sun May 29, 2016 9:26 pm

    Boeing's P-8 Poseidon can cast close to $256.5 million each.P-8 does not have Magnetic Anomally Dectection sensors.US Navy chooses not to use it. Navy assumes it'll use P8 at high altitude.P-8 is designed to operate at higher altitudes. Navy will probably realize it needs the MAD and they'll have to SLEP the P-3's, or give in and put the MAD on the P-8.

    They probably use a mass spectrometry based system to detect exhaust fumes. Unsure what that'll do against a nuclear powered submarine.my guess is they'll go for sonobuoys from above. I hope they can carry enough sonobuoys. The next alternative is to use a MAD on a reel, but one that won't snap at the cruising speed of a P-8? Might be tricky.

    The acoustic detection system of a P-8 is 2x as effective as that of the P-3, and this is used to advance the claim that the MAD is not necessary. Unsure how I feel about this, especially since it is not an aircraft capability, but that of its sonobuoys (which cannot be retrieved and re-used, which limits the "fishing" capability of the P-8; it must be reasonably sure before it drops buoys into the water).


    Vladimir Sahnin don't overestimate US ASW skills . I don't know why many people carry the preconceived notion that US ASW skills are extraordinary.




    Surprised to know Russian ASW planes are limited in number let alone any future export model

    But what I've read ( can be wrong also) that Russian Sonar systems(Acoustics) are quite efficient and capable to track enemy subs in littoral waters and maybe around arctic. Is it true ?
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    Militarov

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    Re: ASW Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  Militarov on Sun May 29, 2016 9:27 pm

    VladimirSahin wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    VladimirSahin wrote:I see, so basically not capable enough to find modern US subs as in the way US ASW air craft can find Russian subs.

    I see problem abit different, problem is the number of platforms that Russia has. There are very few ASW and maritime patrol aircraft in Russian inventory in general.

    Atm in US there are like 100 P3 Orion variants, about 40 or so P8A with 120ish in total on order. Japan for an example also has almost 150 maritime patrol/ASW aircraft and nearly 100 P3s...

    F*** sanctions Laughing

    Well this problem exists since early 90s when many ASW aircrafts were retired and spots were never filled later on.
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    GarryB

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    Re: ASW Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  GarryB on Mon May 30, 2016 3:02 pm

    Regarding your question about nuclear warheads for depth charges Max... as Russian subs get quieter the likelyhood of detecting them at a range where you can use nuke warheads reduces... Sea Lance never entered US service because there was no point... its increase in range over ASROC and SUBROC was pointless because they could no longer detect Russian subs at the longer range.

    I see problem abit different, problem is the number of platforms that Russia has. There are very few ASW and maritime patrol aircraft in Russian inventory in general.

    I agree, but they have more MPAs than the UK... Twisted Evil Twisted Evil

    I see, so basically not capable enough to find modern US subs as in the way US ASW air craft can find Russian subs.

    Actually I would say Sea Dragon in its domestic version is totally comparable to anything the west has, the problem for both sides is that Russian subs have gotten quieter... to the point where active sonar has become a necessary tactic for surface vessels to detect subs at anything like a useful range on anything like a regular basis. AIP equipped subs will make this even more pronounced as they are quieter than nuke subs.

    Well this problem exists since early 90s when many ASW aircrafts were retired and spots were never filled later on.

    ASW is expensive.
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    archangelski

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    Re: ASW Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  archangelski on Mon May 30, 2016 4:07 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    GarryB wrote:From the information I have read the domestic version of Sea Dragon should actually be pretty state of the art, and that there are versions for the Il-38 and Tu-142.

    The only problems I have read about regarding the Bear is that its high speed design... ie swept wings make deploying ULW or ultra low wave antennas for communications with subs is difficult as the low flight speeds needed to deploy the several km long cables that have to be deployed near vertically means flying at close to stall speed for the Bear... which is an issue of course.

    well the problem with export of ASW aircrafts in Russia is that there are no suitable platforms anytime soon. Tu-204 might be but for other reasons is dead...

    Why not a derivative of the Be-200 ??

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    Militarov

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    Re: ASW Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  Militarov on Mon May 30, 2016 5:27 pm

    archangelski wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    GarryB wrote:From the information I have read the domestic version of Sea Dragon should actually be pretty state of the art, and that there are versions for the Il-38 and Tu-142.

    The only problems I have read about regarding the Bear is that its high speed design... ie swept wings make deploying ULW or ultra low wave antennas for communications with subs is difficult as the low flight speeds needed to deploy the several km long cables that have to be deployed near vertically means flying at close to stall speed for the Bear... which is an issue of course.

    well the problem with export of ASW aircrafts in Russia is that there are no suitable platforms anytime soon. Tu-204 might be but for other reasons is dead...

    Why not a derivative of the Be-200 ??


    Be-200 is one of the options, however that would be short to medium range ASW aircraft but if someone asked me Be-42 variant with turboprops would be alot better idea. They also need something long range, with current situation probably something based on turbofan engines (Tu-204?).

    http://www.beriev.com/eng/A-42PE_e/A-42PE_e.html
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    archangelski

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    Re: ASW Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  archangelski on Mon May 30, 2016 9:05 pm

    Militarov wrote:

    Be-200 is one of the options, however that would be short to medium range ASW aircraft but if someone asked me Be-42 variant with turboprops would be alot better idea. They also need something long range, with current situation probably something based on turbofan engines (Tu-204?).

    http://www.beriev.com/eng/A-42PE_e/A-42PE_e.html

    Be-42 was in consideration recently for Russian Navy to replace venerable Be-12, but there is no more news of that intent (and turboprop version was planned with D-27 engines...unfortunately made in Ukraine).
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    Militarov

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    Re: ASW Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  Militarov on Mon May 30, 2016 10:00 pm

    archangelski wrote:
    Militarov wrote:

    Be-200 is one of the options, however that would be short to medium range ASW aircraft but if someone asked me Be-42 variant with turboprops would be alot better idea. They also need something long range, with current situation probably something based on turbofan engines (Tu-204?).

    http://www.beriev.com/eng/A-42PE_e/A-42PE_e.html

    Be-42 was in consideration recently for Russian Navy to replace venerable Be-12, but there is no more news of that intent (and turboprop version was planned with D-27 engines...unfortunately made in Ukraine).

    There is always some NK-12 more modern variant as an option.
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    Re: ASW Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon May 30, 2016 10:18 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    archangelski wrote:
    Militarov wrote:

    Be-200 is one of the options, however that would be short to medium range ASW aircraft but if someone asked me Be-42 variant with turboprops would be alot better idea. They also need something long range, with current situation probably something based on turbofan engines (Tu-204?).

    http://www.beriev.com/eng/A-42PE_e/A-42PE_e.html

    Be-42 was in consideration recently for Russian Navy to replace venerable Be-12, but there is no more news of that intent (and turboprop version was planned with D-27 engines...unfortunately made in Ukraine).

    There is always some NK-12 more modern variant as an option.  

    Probably more efficient, new engines will increase range...now not too impressive comparing to Tu-204. But choice was already made AFAIK.

    By 2020, anti-submarine amphibian be-12 will be replaced by seaplanes A-40

    https://lenta.ru/new/2016/03/03/albatros/
    By 2020, anti-submarine amphibian be-12 will be replaced by seaplanes A-40. This was stated by the chief of the naval aviation of the black sea fleet Colonel Gennady Pens, reports RIA Novosti.

    Earlier, in July 2015, a senior source in the leadership of the Navy arguedthat the military order of the anti-submarine aircraft based on amphibian be-200, which, in turn, was created in 1990-ies with the use of hurt on the plane A-40.

    Anti-submarine amphibian aircraft A-40 (Be-42 "Albatross" was developed in the early 1980-ies in the USSR to replace the be-12. For the first time the car took off in 1986, in 1990, was put into service, but mass production never got (been released just two instances). In 1998 there was a civil aircraft be-200 (fire-fighting and search and rescue variants) created on the basis of A-40.

    Machine takeoff weight of about 90 tons was powered by two turbojet engines D-30КВП (option engines from the Il-76 aircraft). The plane boasted a maximum speed of 760 kilometers per hour and carry up to 6.5 tons of payload. In the airborne weapons could come in three anti-submarine torpedo at-3 "Orlan", four anti-submarine missile the APR-2 "Hawk" or six MAY-3 "eagle", as well as mines, depth charges and sonobuoys.
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    Militarov

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    Re: ASW Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  Militarov on Mon May 30, 2016 11:21 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    archangelski wrote:
    Militarov wrote:

    Be-200 is one of the options, however that would be short to medium range ASW aircraft but if someone asked me Be-42 variant with turboprops would be alot better idea. They also need something long range, with current situation probably something based on turbofan engines (Tu-204?).

    http://www.beriev.com/eng/A-42PE_e/A-42PE_e.html

    Be-42 was in consideration recently for Russian Navy to replace venerable Be-12, but there is no more news of that intent (and turboprop version was planned with D-27 engines...unfortunately made in Ukraine).

    There is always some NK-12 more modern variant as an option.  

    Probably more efficient, new engines will increase range...now not too impressive comparing to Tu-204. But choice was already made AFAIK.

    By 2020, anti-submarine amphibian be-12 will be replaced by seaplanes A-40

    https://lenta.ru/new/2016/03/03/albatros/
    By 2020, anti-submarine amphibian be-12 will be replaced by seaplanes A-40. This was stated by the chief of the naval aviation of the black sea fleet Colonel Gennady Pens, reports RIA Novosti.

    Earlier, in July 2015, a senior source in the leadership of the Navy arguedthat the military order of the anti-submarine aircraft based on amphibian be-200, which, in turn, was created in 1990-ies with the use of hurt on the plane A-40.

    Anti-submarine amphibian aircraft A-40 (Be-42 "Albatross" was developed in the early 1980-ies in the USSR to replace the be-12. For the first time the car took off in 1986, in 1990, was put into service, but mass production never got (been released just two instances). In 1998 there was a civil aircraft be-200 (fire-fighting and search and rescue variants) created on the basis of A-40.

    Machine takeoff weight of about 90 tons was powered by two turbojet engines D-30КВП (option engines from the Il-76 aircraft). The plane boasted a maximum speed of 760 kilometers per hour and carry up to 6.5 tons of payload. In the airborne weapons could come in three anti-submarine torpedo at-3 "Orlan", four anti-submarine missile the APR-2 "Hawk" or six MAY-3 "eagle", as well as mines, depth charges and sonobuoys.

    Yeah, however turboprops would perform alot better for such platform, especially due to fact its to be medium range/weight ASW platform.
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    Re: ASW Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue May 31, 2016 12:24 am

    Militarov wrote: Yeah, however turboprops would perform alot better for such platform, especially due to fact its to be medium range/weight ASW platform.


    Then Il-114 seems to be best option. Same range (w/o additional tans), similar range/load...I wonder if flying boat buyancy counts here?


    IMHO best would be ASW based on Bartini Beriev VVA-14

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartini_Beriev_VVA-14







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    AlfaT8

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    Re: ASW Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  AlfaT8 on Tue May 31, 2016 6:03 pm

    Looks like Vietnam is gonna have to go with P-3 since it doesn't look like the Il-38 is in production anymore.
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    Militarov

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    Re: ASW Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  Militarov on Tue May 31, 2016 6:21 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:Looks like Vietnam is gonna have to go with P-3 since it doesn't look like the Il-38 is in production anymore.

    There is high posibility they will buy used ones, as US is planning to retire like 80 of P3s by 2018.
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    max steel

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    Re: ASW Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  max steel on Thu Jun 02, 2016 4:38 pm

    GarryB wrote:Regarding your question about nuclear warheads for depth charges Max... as Russian subs get quieter the likelyhood of detecting them at a range where you can use nuke warheads reduces... Sea Lance never entered US service because there was no point... its increase in range over ASROC and SUBROC was pointless because they could no longer detect Russian subs at the longer range.



    I see, so basically not capable enough to find modern US subs as in the way US ASW air craft can find Russian subs.

    Actually I would say Sea Dragon in its domestic version is totally comparable to anything the west has, the problem for both sides is that Russian subs have gotten quieter... to the point where active sonar has become a necessary tactic for surface vessels to detect subs at anything like a useful range on anything like a regular basis. AIP equipped subs will make this even more pronounced as they are quieter than nuke subs.


    By Active Sonar what do you mean exactly ? Can Active Sonars be used in enemy littoral waters or near their waters ? What's the difference between active and passive sonars ? I got your point that due to Russian sub quietness ( reduction in noise levels) US ASW sonars can no longer detect subs at longer range but if they detect it at shorter ranges even then what's the disadvantage ? Still they can use depth charge or torpedoes both from their asw aircraft( chances are less as it'll be shot down) or their own carrier supporting submarines ( highly likely) .




    That ghost unmanned ship using active sonar is again useless in such conflicts.
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    GarryB

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    Apparently Vietnam is shown some interest in acquiring P-3s from the U.S, i looked it up and i find the Tu-142 and Il-38, the Tu is pretty much retired and the Il-38s recently got modernized, but i can't find anything on whether there's an export variant

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jun 03, 2016 1:35 pm

    By Active Sonar what do you mean exactly ?

    Like a bat in an empty cave where there is no noise... it squeaks and listens to the sound returning to their very large ears... by judging the time it takes for the sound to return it can gauge the distance to the walls of the cave.

    WWII sonars were used to detect subs by sending a ping and listening for the return from objects in the water like submarines.

    Can Active Sonars be used in enemy littoral waters or near their waters ? What's the difference between active and passive sonars ?

    Active sonar can be used anywhere but most subs don't use it to avoid revealing their presence.

    ASW groups of ships often actively ping in peace time to stir up enemy subs... a diesel electric that is running on electric that is not moving makes very little noise so to detect it you can use active sonar pings to detect its presence.

    US ASW sonars can no longer detect subs at longer range but if they detect it at shorter ranges even then what's the disadvantage ?

    If you can detect a noisy old WWII sub from 1,000km then your grid search pattern has 1,000km grids so searching the Atlantic is much easier... if you need to be within 1km of the target to detect it then obviously 1km square grids is going to have 1 million more flight lines in the horizontal and vertical... not to mention the time aspect as the time it takes to search a few widths of those sets of boxes an enemy sub could easily have moved out of the unsearched area into a searched area and be safe till you have looked everywhere and start looking where you have already looked... which would take years and not really be practical.

    That ghost unmanned ship using active sonar is again useless in such conflicts.

    What protects those ghost ships? They would be fairly easy to find targets if they are blazing away with active sonar all the time... even a passive homing torpedo could detect it at enormous range...
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    George1

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    Re: ASW Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  George1 on Mon Jun 06, 2016 5:10 am

    It is possible that the Tu-142M3 of Russian Navy aircraft used in Syria for reconnaissance of ground targets

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    George1

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    Re: ASW Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  George1 on Tue Aug 16, 2016 12:10 pm

    50th Beriev aircraft overhauled. (antisubmarine aircraft Tu-142MK (hull number "51", registration number RF-34059, own the name "Yuri Malinin")



    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2071678.html
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    eehnie

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    Re: ASW Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  eehnie on Sun Aug 28, 2016 11:17 pm


    There is some new about the delivery of the ordered Be-200? I find nothing.
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    George1

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    Re: ASW Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  George1 on Sun Aug 28, 2016 11:47 pm

    eehnie wrote:
    There is some new about the delivery of the ordered Be-200? I find nothing.

    Ministry of Defence has ordered Be-200 but not ASW version i think, only SAR
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    Re: ASW Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  eehnie on Mon Aug 29, 2016 1:38 am

    George1 wrote:
    eehnie wrote:
    There is some new about the delivery of the ordered Be-200? I find nothing.

    Ministry of Defence has ordered Be-200 but not ASW version i think, only SAR

    Not sure really about the first order, but some units with antisubmarine warfare should come according to the reports.

    http://www.ibtimes.com/russia-orders-submarine-killer-be-200-amphibious-aircraft-production-2020-official-2015061

    The Be-200 and the Be-A-40/42 were the aircrafts selected to replace the Be-12 and the Il-38.
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    franco

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    Re: ASW Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  franco on Fri Sep 30, 2016 11:19 pm

    First Il-38 flew 55 years ago September 28th.

    http://www.armstrade.org/includes/periodics/news/2016/0928/180537311/detail.shtml
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    George1

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    Re: ASW Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  George1 on Thu Nov 10, 2016 1:01 am

    New modernized Il-38N (7th)



    In Zhukovsky filmed the final flight testing after upgrading anti-IL-38N ASW Russian Navy aircraft (tail number "11 Yellow", the name "Michael Verbitsky"). This is the seventh modernized Il-38N and the first modernized board contracted in 2015 for two cars.

    JSC "Aviation Complex named after SV Ilyushin "in May 2015 concluded with the Russian Ministry of Defence contract to modernize a production next two combat aircraft IL-38 variant of the Il-38N, the term of the contract - in November 2017. Direct the work performed by him JSC "20th Aircraft Repair Plant" in Pushkin near St. Petersburg (repair) and Moscow JSC "Experimental Machine-Building Plant named after VM Myasishcheva" based in Zhukovsky (installation of a new search and sighting system "Novella -P-38 "produced by JSC" Leninist ").

    The first upgraded aircraft under this contract (serial number 880 010 308, serial number 103-08) now passes tests in Zhukovsky, was built in 1968 and was part of the aviation of the Northern Fleet. After the modernization of the aircraft was named in honor of the maritime pilot Hero of the Soviet Union MK Verbitsky (1917 - 1944).

    Previously, from 2012 to 2015, naval aviation of the Russian Navy received six modernized Il-38N (yellow board numbers "15", "19", "23", "24", "27" and "78"), five of which were modernized under a contract dated May 2012.

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2241950.html
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    George1

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    Re: ASW Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  George1 on Fri Dec 23, 2016 8:18 am

    Eighth modernized Il-38N

    In Zhukovsky spotters filmed the final flight testing after upgrading one anti-submarine aircraft Il-38N of Naval aviation of Russia. This is the eighth modernized Il-38N and the second board modernized under a contract in 2015 for two cars.

    JSC "Aviation Complex named after SV Ilyushin" in May 2015 concluded with the Russian Ministry of Defence contract to modernize a production next two combat aircraft IL-38 variant of the Il-38N, the term of the contract - in November 2017. Direct the work performed by him JSC "20th Aircraft Repair Plant" in Pushkin near St. Petersburg (repair) and Moscow JSC "Experimental Machine-Building Plant named after VM Myasishcheva" based in Zhukovsky (installation of a new search and sighting system "Novella P-38").

    The first on this contract was upgraded aircraft with serial number 880010308 (serial number 103-08), received hull number "11 Yellow", registration number RF-75 308 and the name "Michael Verbitsky".

    The second and last modernized under this contract aircraft with serial number 081011006 (serial number 110-06), passing modernization tests in Zhukovsky now, was built as an IL-38 in 1971 and previously flew as part of the Northern Fleet aviation, from the end of the 1990s was a member of 444th Center deployment and retraining flight personnel of the air Force and air Defence Russian Navy Island (Pskov region), and since 2010 - in the newly formed 859th Center deployment and training of flight crews of Russian Navy aviation in Yeisk.

    Previously, from 2012 to 2015, naval aviation of the Russian Navy received six modernized Il-38N (yellow board numbers "15", "19", "23", "24", "27" and "78"), five of which were modernized under a contract dated May 2012.



    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2341327.html
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    franco

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    Re: ASW Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  franco on Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:57 am

    Zhukovsky (Moscow reg.), January 31 - RIA Novosti. The modernization program of 30 anti-IL-38 to the level of IL-38N will be executed to 2025, he told reporters on Tuesday the commander of the naval aviation of the Russian Navy, Major General Igor Kozhin.

    In Zhukovsky near Moscow on Tuesday a solemn ceremony of awarding the modernized anti-aircraft Il-38N named Colonel-General Viktor Pavlovich Potapov - Commander of the Navy aircraft in 1988-1994.

    "The modernization program will last until 2025, so the plan to modernize all these terms to perform" - Kozhin said, answering the question of what date will upgrade all 30 Il-38 aircraft.

    He added that the Il-38N, put into service in Zhukovsky near Moscow will be transferred to ground testing complex naval aviation in Yeisk.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2G4xvodNkE

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