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    ASW Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

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    AlfaT8

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    Re: ASW Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  AlfaT8 on Tue May 31, 2016 4:03 pm

    Looks like Vietnam is gonna have to go with P-3 since it doesn't look like the Il-38 is in production anymore.
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    Militarov

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    Re: ASW Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  Militarov on Tue May 31, 2016 4:21 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:Looks like Vietnam is gonna have to go with P-3 since it doesn't look like the Il-38 is in production anymore.

    There is high posibility they will buy used ones, as US is planning to retire like 80 of P3s by 2018.
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    max steel

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    Re: ASW Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  max steel on Thu Jun 02, 2016 2:38 pm

    GarryB wrote:Regarding your question about nuclear warheads for depth charges Max... as Russian subs get quieter the likelyhood of detecting them at a range where you can use nuke warheads reduces... Sea Lance never entered US service because there was no point... its increase in range over ASROC and SUBROC was pointless because they could no longer detect Russian subs at the longer range.



    I see, so basically not capable enough to find modern US subs as in the way US ASW air craft can find Russian subs.

    Actually I would say Sea Dragon in its domestic version is totally comparable to anything the west has, the problem for both sides is that Russian subs have gotten quieter... to the point where active sonar has become a necessary tactic for surface vessels to detect subs at anything like a useful range on anything like a regular basis. AIP equipped subs will make this even more pronounced as they are quieter than nuke subs.


    By Active Sonar what do you mean exactly ? Can Active Sonars be used in enemy littoral waters or near their waters ? What's the difference between active and passive sonars ? I got your point that due to Russian sub quietness ( reduction in noise levels) US ASW sonars can no longer detect subs at longer range but if they detect it at shorter ranges even then what's the disadvantage ? Still they can use depth charge or torpedoes both from their asw aircraft( chances are less as it'll be shot down) or their own carrier supporting submarines ( highly likely) .




    That ghost unmanned ship using active sonar is again useless in such conflicts.
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    GarryB

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    Apparently Vietnam is shown some interest in acquiring P-3s from the U.S, i looked it up and i find the Tu-142 and Il-38, the Tu is pretty much retired and the Il-38s recently got modernized, but i can't find anything on whether there's an export variant

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jun 03, 2016 11:35 am

    By Active Sonar what do you mean exactly ?

    Like a bat in an empty cave where there is no noise... it squeaks and listens to the sound returning to their very large ears... by judging the time it takes for the sound to return it can gauge the distance to the walls of the cave.

    WWII sonars were used to detect subs by sending a ping and listening for the return from objects in the water like submarines.

    Can Active Sonars be used in enemy littoral waters or near their waters ? What's the difference between active and passive sonars ?

    Active sonar can be used anywhere but most subs don't use it to avoid revealing their presence.

    ASW groups of ships often actively ping in peace time to stir up enemy subs... a diesel electric that is running on electric that is not moving makes very little noise so to detect it you can use active sonar pings to detect its presence.

    US ASW sonars can no longer detect subs at longer range but if they detect it at shorter ranges even then what's the disadvantage ?

    If you can detect a noisy old WWII sub from 1,000km then your grid search pattern has 1,000km grids so searching the Atlantic is much easier... if you need to be within 1km of the target to detect it then obviously 1km square grids is going to have 1 million more flight lines in the horizontal and vertical... not to mention the time aspect as the time it takes to search a few widths of those sets of boxes an enemy sub could easily have moved out of the unsearched area into a searched area and be safe till you have looked everywhere and start looking where you have already looked... which would take years and not really be practical.

    That ghost unmanned ship using active sonar is again useless in such conflicts.

    What protects those ghost ships? They would be fairly easy to find targets if they are blazing away with active sonar all the time... even a passive homing torpedo could detect it at enormous range...


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    George1

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    Re: ASW Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  George1 on Mon Jun 06, 2016 3:10 am

    It is possible that the Tu-142M3 of Russian Navy aircraft used in Syria for reconnaissance of ground targets



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    George1

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    Re: ASW Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  George1 on Tue Aug 16, 2016 10:10 am

    50th Beriev aircraft overhauled. (antisubmarine aircraft Tu-142MK (hull number "51", registration number RF-34059, own the name "Yuri Malinin")



    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2071678.html


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    eehnie

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    Re: ASW Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  eehnie on Sun Aug 28, 2016 9:17 pm


    There is some new about the delivery of the ordered Be-200? I find nothing.
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    George1

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    Re: ASW Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  George1 on Sun Aug 28, 2016 9:47 pm

    eehnie wrote:
    There is some new about the delivery of the ordered Be-200? I find nothing.

    Ministry of Defence has ordered Be-200 but not ASW version i think, only SAR


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    eehnie

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    Re: ASW Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  eehnie on Sun Aug 28, 2016 11:38 pm

    George1 wrote:
    eehnie wrote:
    There is some new about the delivery of the ordered Be-200? I find nothing.

    Ministry of Defence has ordered Be-200 but not ASW version i think, only SAR

    Not sure really about the first order, but some units with antisubmarine warfare should come according to the reports.

    http://www.ibtimes.com/russia-orders-submarine-killer-be-200-amphibious-aircraft-production-2020-official-2015061

    The Be-200 and the Be-A-40/42 were the aircrafts selected to replace the Be-12 and the Il-38.
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    franco

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    Re: ASW Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  franco on Fri Sep 30, 2016 9:19 pm

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    George1

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    Re: ASW Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  George1 on Thu Nov 10, 2016 12:01 am

    New modernized Il-38N (7th)



    In Zhukovsky filmed the final flight testing after upgrading anti-IL-38N ASW Russian Navy aircraft (tail number "11 Yellow", the name "Michael Verbitsky"). This is the seventh modernized Il-38N and the first modernized board contracted in 2015 for two cars.

    JSC "Aviation Complex named after SV Ilyushin "in May 2015 concluded with the Russian Ministry of Defence contract to modernize a production next two combat aircraft IL-38 variant of the Il-38N, the term of the contract - in November 2017. Direct the work performed by him JSC "20th Aircraft Repair Plant" in Pushkin near St. Petersburg (repair) and Moscow JSC "Experimental Machine-Building Plant named after VM Myasishcheva" based in Zhukovsky (installation of a new search and sighting system "Novella -P-38 "produced by JSC" Leninist ").

    The first upgraded aircraft under this contract (serial number 880 010 308, serial number 103-08) now passes tests in Zhukovsky, was built in 1968 and was part of the aviation of the Northern Fleet. After the modernization of the aircraft was named in honor of the maritime pilot Hero of the Soviet Union MK Verbitsky (1917 - 1944).

    Previously, from 2012 to 2015, naval aviation of the Russian Navy received six modernized Il-38N (yellow board numbers "15", "19", "23", "24", "27" and "78"), five of which were modernized under a contract dated May 2012.

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2241950.html


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    George1

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    Re: ASW Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  George1 on Fri Dec 23, 2016 7:18 am

    Eighth modernized Il-38N

    In Zhukovsky spotters filmed the final flight testing after upgrading one anti-submarine aircraft Il-38N of Naval aviation of Russia. This is the eighth modernized Il-38N and the second board modernized under a contract in 2015 for two cars.

    JSC "Aviation Complex named after SV Ilyushin" in May 2015 concluded with the Russian Ministry of Defence contract to modernize a production next two combat aircraft IL-38 variant of the Il-38N, the term of the contract - in November 2017. Direct the work performed by him JSC "20th Aircraft Repair Plant" in Pushkin near St. Petersburg (repair) and Moscow JSC "Experimental Machine-Building Plant named after VM Myasishcheva" based in Zhukovsky (installation of a new search and sighting system "Novella P-38").

    The first on this contract was upgraded aircraft with serial number 880010308 (serial number 103-08), received hull number "11 Yellow", registration number RF-75 308 and the name "Michael Verbitsky".

    The second and last modernized under this contract aircraft with serial number 081011006 (serial number 110-06), passing modernization tests in Zhukovsky now, was built as an IL-38 in 1971 and previously flew as part of the Northern Fleet aviation, from the end of the 1990s was a member of 444th Center deployment and retraining flight personnel of the air Force and air Defence Russian Navy Island (Pskov region), and since 2010 - in the newly formed 859th Center deployment and training of flight crews of Russian Navy aviation in Yeisk.

    Previously, from 2012 to 2015, naval aviation of the Russian Navy received six modernized Il-38N (yellow board numbers "15", "19", "23", "24", "27" and "78"), five of which were modernized under a contract dated May 2012.



    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2341327.html


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    Re: ASW Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  franco on Tue Jan 31, 2017 11:57 pm

    Zhukovsky (Moscow reg.), January 31 - RIA Novosti. The modernization program of 30 anti-IL-38 to the level of IL-38N will be executed to 2025, he told reporters on Tuesday the commander of the naval aviation of the Russian Navy, Major General Igor Kozhin.

    In Zhukovsky near Moscow on Tuesday a solemn ceremony of awarding the modernized anti-aircraft Il-38N named Colonel-General Viktor Pavlovich Potapov - Commander of the Navy aircraft in 1988-1994.

    "The modernization program will last until 2025, so the plan to modernize all these terms to perform" - Kozhin said, answering the question of what date will upgrade all 30 Il-38 aircraft.

    He added that the Il-38N, put into service in Zhukovsky near Moscow will be transferred to ground testing complex naval aviation in Yeisk.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2G4xvodNkE
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    AlfaT8

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    Re: ASW Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  AlfaT8 on Wed May 03, 2017 12:45 am

    Just realized that there's a maritime patrol variant of the Be-200 called the Be-220, this variant looks very comparable to the P-8 Poseidon, would be very useful for countries like Vietnam.
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    Re: ASW Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  George1 on Wed May 03, 2017 2:50 am

    By no means comparable. P-8 has bigger capacity engines and 4 times longer range than Be-200 variant. Be A-42 Albatros could be closer to P-8. A Tu-204 modification however could be the better comparable


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    AlfaT8

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    Re: ASW Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  AlfaT8 on Thu May 04, 2017 4:26 pm

    George1 wrote:By no means comparable. P-8 has bigger capacity engines and 4 times longer range than Be-200 variant. Be A-42 Albatros could be closer to P-8. A Tu-204 modification however could be the better comparable

    "4 time longer range"??...... don't get Ferry Range mixed up with Combat Radius, although this is assuming the "range" of the Be is range with payload, that said, the P-8 still has more than double the Ferry range.

    There were mentions that 4 Albotroses were ordered for patrol purposes, but i have heard nothing more.

    As for the Tu-204, the only thing i can see is a revamped Tu-214R.
    There is also the MS-21 and the SuperJet-100 (if i am reading these specs right), although the Tupolev will probly take less time to get to service.
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    Dorfmeister

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    Re: ASW Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  Dorfmeister on Fri May 05, 2017 8:40 am

    AlfaT8 wrote:As for the Tu-204, the only thing i can see is a revamped Tu-214R.
    There is also the MS-21 and the SuperJet-100 (if i am reading these specs right), although the Tupolev will probly take less time to get to service.

    The SSJ-100 has already been dismissed by the military if I'm not mistaken and the MS-21 will be prioritary used for civilian customers, so in a middle to short term: a Tu-204/214 based variant would definitely be the best option to replace the IL-38N.

    Even if the IL-38N have been modernised, they won't soldier on forever...
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    Re: ASW Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri May 05, 2017 11:26 am

    Dorfmeister wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:As for the Tu-204, the only thing i can see is a revamped Tu-214R.
    There is also the MS-21 and the SuperJet-100 (if i am reading these specs right), although the Tupolev will probly take less time to get to service.

    The SSJ-100 has already been dismissed by the military if I'm not mistaken and the MS-21 will be prioritary used for civilian customers, so in a middle to short term: a Tu-204/214 based variant would definitely be the best option to replace the IL-38N.

    Even if the IL-38N have been modernised, they won't soldier on forever...  

    Aren't they pushing for Il-114 as ASW aircraft?

    Saw a prototype a while back.
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    AlfaT8

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    Re: ASW Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  AlfaT8 on Fri May 05, 2017 5:02 pm

    Dorfmeister wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:As for the Tu-204, the only thing i can see is a revamped Tu-214R.
    There is also the MS-21 and the SuperJet-100 (if i am reading these specs right), although the Tupolev will probly take less time to get to service.

    The SSJ-100 has already been dismissed by the military if I'm not mistaken and the MS-21 will be prioritary used for civilian customers, so in a middle to short term: a Tu-204/214 based variant would definitely be the best option to replace the IL-38N.

    Even if the IL-38N have been modernised, they won't soldier on forever...  

    No, no, i am not proposing a replacement for the Il-38s, they just got upgraded, but a Russian competitor to the P-8.

    PapaDragon wrote:Aren't they pushing for Il-114 as ASW aircraft?

    Saw a prototype a while back.

    Unlikely, considering it's range or lack there of.
    On top of that it's propeller driven.
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    Re: ASW Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  miketheterrible on Fri May 05, 2017 6:36 pm

    There really isn't a justifiable replacement for Il-38 currently for such a roll. As some said, maybe the A-40 would have been good but that plane got cancelled long time ago. I mean, they could dust off the blueprints, make some modern adjustments, and try again. But I imagine due to money being allocated new equipment meant for direct fighting then I imagine it will take a back burner till 2025 or after. Il-38 while being old, still has a lot of room for improvements and can be upgraded even further with more advanced capabilities. Much cheaper option while still being effective at what it does.
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    Re: ASW Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri May 05, 2017 8:14 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:...............

    PapaDragon wrote:Aren't they pushing for Il-114 as ASW aircraft?

    Saw a prototype a while back.

    Unlikely, considering it's range or lack there of.
    On top of that it's propeller driven.

    I assumed propeller is an advantage for this type of work.

    In that case then it's definitely Tu-204/214 as the best option. MS-21 will be booked with civilian orders for years and it is kinda a waste to use such fancy bird as ASW.
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    Militarov

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    Re: ASW Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  Militarov on Fri May 05, 2017 8:19 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:
    Dorfmeister wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:As for the Tu-204, the only thing i can see is a revamped Tu-214R.
    There is also the MS-21 and the SuperJet-100 (if i am reading these specs right), although the Tupolev will probly take less time to get to service.

    The SSJ-100 has already been dismissed by the military if I'm not mistaken and the MS-21 will be prioritary used for civilian customers, so in a middle to short term: a Tu-204/214 based variant would definitely be the best option to replace the IL-38N.

    Even if the IL-38N have been modernised, they won't soldier on forever...  

    No, no, i am not proposing a replacement for the Il-38s, they just got upgraded, but a Russian competitor to the P-8.

    PapaDragon wrote:Aren't they pushing for Il-114 as ASW aircraft?

    Saw a prototype a while back.

    Unlikely, considering it's range or lack there of.
    On top of that it's propeller driven.

    Turboprops have certain advantages for ASW aircraft, however P-8 is what i like to call "strategic ASW aircraft". However imo there should be two types of fixed-wing ASW platforms, one based on liner like P-8 is, and one on smaller turboprop driven aircraft. Like lets say CASA is, or IL-114.
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    Re: ASW Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  Rowdyhorse4 on Sat Jul 01, 2017 5:36 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:MS-21 will be booked with civilian orders

    From what i know, the Avionics of the Irkut MC-21 is designed together with Thales and Honeywell as it was purposed to be a Civilian plane... <--- Hence the Russian MOD is technically NOT allowed to purchase it unless they were to create another variant which ditches all Western avionics for Russian ones... Possible but will take a while to redesign probably... I may be wrong tho....

    max steel wrote:.P-8 does not have Magnetic Anomally Dectection sensors.US Navy chooses not to use it

    Yes... the USN ditched the MAD for another system that uses a hydrocarbon sensor to detect fuel vapors from diesel-powered submarines and ships instead... I don't know the effectiveness of this system tho but considering the USN also has high standards for their equipment design requirements... I assume that it will slightly lower or JUST as effective at detecting subs as Contemporary US MAD systems tho BUT i may just be overestimating it...

    max steel wrote:I don't know why many people carry the preconceived notion that US ASW skills are extraordinary.

    Because US technology in Passive Sonar was superior to the soviets during the mid cold war until the akulas but at that point, people already had their minds implanted with the niche that the US Sonars are God like when the Soviets have improved it on their Newer subs ( Akula II, Kilo class and any newer subs than these two).... With Maskirovka in mind, i doubt the Russians will change the people's mindset as Severely underestimating Russian Systems MIGHT be good for the MoD.... or we could be swallowing a shit ton of Russian Propaganda as well... Goes both ways Laughing Both nation has propaganda efforts.... but for now, i'm for the prior instead of later russia

    militarov wrote:Turboprops have certain advantages for ASW aircraft

    Is it? I'm curious to see how actually... Isn't Turbojet just better in terms of combat efficiency as you have better speed control and such? Getting the hell out seems like a good thing to be able to do once the enemy has had enough of your presence and decides to try shoot you down.... also Better power plants for more power demanding avionics no?


    TBH, i think Russia's best option for medium Range ASW right now is the A-40s to run together with the IL-38Ns together And for Long range.... Tu-204s but that plane's Range is shit tbh so i'd say modify an Il-96 PS-90A1? But i don't think there are any Il-96 400s that are being turned for military purposes are there? Only a tanker variant was proposed no?
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    Re: ASW Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jul 02, 2017 6:57 am


    Yes... the USN ditched the MAD for another system that uses a hydrocarbon sensor to detect fuel vapors from diesel-powered submarines and ships instead... I don't know the effectiveness of this system tho but considering the USN also has high standards for their equipment design requirements... I assume that it will slightly lower or JUST as effective at detecting subs as Contemporary US MAD systems tho BUT i may just be overestimating it...

    The Soviets have been using fuel sniffing technology for years and it is not a good replacement for MAD.

    The smell of burnt diesel does not tell you if it is a sub or a fishing boat or commercial container ship... you use such information to narrow your search for a target.

    MAD is no good for such things... it is used in the final kill stage to precisely locate the underwater target... a huge change in the earths magnetic field that moves and is underwater is a submarine... a fuel sniffer wont give you that sort of pin point information.

    Is it? I'm curious to see how actually... Isn't Turbojet just better in terms of combat efficiency as you have better speed control and such? Getting the hell out seems like a good thing to be able to do once the enemy has had enough of your presence and decides to try shoot you down.... also Better power plants for more power demanding avionics no?

    Most ASW operations involve flying low and slow... dropping expendible sonobouys and then using their information to triangulate the location of an enemy sub and then using that information to fly patterns using MAD to get a much more precise location followed by an attack with depth charges or torpedoes.

    Turbofans are great for long range high altitude subsonic cruise... turbojets would be good for supersonic flight or less efficient subsonic flight... turboprops as used on the Il-38 and Tu-142 and also the P-3 Orion are standard engine equipment for such roles.


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    Re: ASW Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

    Post  Militarov on Sun Jul 02, 2017 12:27 pm

    P8 always can be equiped with MAD on request, i belive Indian contract features MAD installed. However that is due to fact US allegedly refused selling same grade acoustic sensors to India as ones installed on domestic variant, so they had to opt for MAD to suplement it. USN claims MAD is of limited use on altitudes P-8 is flying, and that extremly sensitive acoustic sensors they developed are giving far better results.

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