ASW Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

GarryB wrote: Low speed loitering is not very efficient with a turbofan... especially at lower altitudes like it would when hunting for Subs. The Tu-142 struggles at low speed with its ULF antenna deployed because there is just a narrow flight speed margin between stall and the antenna not being effective (it needs to hand almost straight down). This is not because of the engines... they are turboprops, but because of the swept wing increasing stall speed (and also max speed).

If they are going to be making a new engine out of the NK-32 for a flying wing subsonic cruise aircraft then making a variant that had a pusher prop with two sets of blades like the D-27 would be useful for some roles too... perhaps a two engined Il-476 variant, plus the naval model and the use on both Bears... ie Tu-142 and Tu-95 to extend their life... and sell them to China to make US carriers less safe...  

On other hand i dont think they will ever do such update on TU95s and TU142s, at least not making it 2 engined. They might overhaul current design with some changes etc but replacing totally i dont see that happening.

They completely redesigned the wing in the late 1970s to create the Tu-142... why not upgrade the engines?

Then sell them off to the Chinese or Indians to threaten US carrier groups with hypersonic missiles  

Garry you are behaving as Evil Ivan

As for flying boats I see 2 basic reasons for Russians to reopen this project:

a) flying-boat needs no land based airfield (both useful in vast areas of Russia or in missions like Syria or hopefully to be base in Fiji:)

b) push towards development of aircraft industry. Many subcontracted companies with electronics/electrical systems/composites/mechanics you name it. Also export potential for both civil and mil versions.

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

Militarov wrote:

George1 wrote:Yes thats a question. And i wonder if it is worthy to revive this project for only 4-5 aircrafts for BSF. (unless they are intended for other fleets also, Caspian or Baltic)

Well, to make whole project worth it they would need to build at least like 40 or 50 of them which i somehow dont see happening at least not for Russian Navy alone. Unless they maybe want to replace on long run IL38s with derivate of Albatros?

in text from 2008:

The A-42 (Be-42) amphibious plane is the search and rescue variant of the A-40 Mermaid ASW aircraft, which can be used for reconnaissance and target designation during patrols over coastal and international waters. It is the largest amphibious aircraft in the world. "The Russian naval aviation will receive four A-42 amphibious planes by 2013, with the first one to be commissioned in 2010," the deputy commander of naval aviation, Maj. Gen. Nikolai Kuklev.
He said the A-42 would become the main reconnaissance and ASW aircraft of the Russian Navy after 2015 and would replace the ageing fleet of Be-12 Mail and Il-38 May maritime patrol aircraft."

And still they halted funding for whole project in 2011. I do remember these stories but they are atm updating IL38s which means they will fly at least another 15 years. Original plan was to get rid of them by early 2020.

GarryB wrote:

Well there existed something called Beriev A-42

As far as I am aware it was only ever a model proposal...

Turboprop surely would be alot more suited for at least ASW and sea rescue roles if anything, while turbofan version is good for firefighting, medievac, maritime patrol, AWACs, liner... and i suppose some other.

Low speed loitering is not very efficient with a turbofan... especially at lower altitudes like it would when hunting for Subs. The Tu-142 struggles at low speed with its ULF antenna deployed because there is just a narrow flight speed margin between stall and the antenna not being effective (it needs to hand almost straight down). This is not because of the engines... they are turboprops, but because of the swept wing increasing stall speed (and also max speed).

If they are going to be making a new engine out of the NK-32 for a flying wing subsonic cruise aircraft then making a variant that had a pusher prop with two sets of blades like the D-27 would be useful for some roles too... perhaps a two engined Il-476 variant, plus the naval model and the use on both Bears... ie Tu-142 and Tu-95 to extend their life... and sell them to China to make US carriers less safe...  

On other hand i dont think they will ever do such update on TU95s and TU142s, at least not making it 2 engined. They might overhaul current design with some changes etc but replacing totally i dont see that happening.

They completely redesigned the wing in the late 1970s to create the Tu-142... why not upgrade the engines?

Then sell them off to the Chinese or Indians to threaten US carrier groups with hypersonic missiles  

Yeah it was only a proposal, but they planned it, till funding was lifted.

Yeah but TU142s were newly built specialised platform it was worth it, idk if they would throw maybe even couple dozen million USD per TU95 to modernise them i know i wouldnt that is

Tu-96 <—> NK-16

Tu-95I <—> NK-20

.
.
.

x <—> y

Yeah but TU142s were newly built specialised platform it was worth it, idk if they would throw maybe even couple dozen million USD per TU95 to modernise them i know i wouldnt that is

They will have spent 100 times that over the last few decades upgrading the electronics on those expensive MPAs... an upgrade of the engines would be peanuts compared with the cost of Sea Dragon.

The Tu-95s in service all got upgraded wings too...

They are spending money making an engine for the PAK DA to allow it to fly efficiently very long distances at subsonic speeds... it would not be that hard to make a turboprop or similar bladed fan model like a ducted fan or propfan... such engines could also be used on large civilian and military transports and passenger aircraft.

Apparently Vietnam is shown some interest in acquiring P-3s from the U.S, i looked it up and i find the Tu-142 and Il-38, the Tu is pretty much retired and the Il-38s recently got modernized, but i can't find anything on whether there's an export variant or not, and what is Russia's answer to the P-8?

AlfaT8 wrote:Apparently Vietnam is shown some interest in acquiring P-3s from the U.S, i looked it up and i find the Tu-142 and Il-38, the Tu is pretty much retired and the Il-38s recently got modernized, but i can't find anything on whether there's an export variant or not, and what is Russia's answer to the P-8?

nothing at the moment afaik. The promising could be the one based on IL-114 or Yak-242...

max steel wrote: Are Russians planning to revive nuclear anti-sub depth bombs also ?

why not? one depth charge can "clear" bigger area. The will be used to sink not all subs th.

AlfaT8 wrote:Apparently Vietnam is shown some interest in acquiring P-3s from the U.S, i looked it up and i find the Tu-142 and Il-38, the Tu is pretty much retired and the Il-38s recently got modernized, but i can't find anything on whether there's an export variant or not, and what is Russia's answer to the P-8?

I belive Tu-142s are still in service with Naval airbases in Fedotovo and Mongokhto, probably around 10, those are the only long range ASW fixed wing aircraft Russia atm fields. Il-38 modernisation is still underway, those are expected to serve another 10-15 years after modernisation.

Atm Russia does not really have anything in same class as P-8. There were proposed few replacement for current ASW aircraft. Mostly not materialised by now, those were supposed to be based on Tu-204, Be-200, Be-40...

Militarov wrote:

AlfaT8 wrote:Apparently Vietnam is shown some interest in acquiring P-3s from the U.S, i looked it up and i find the Tu-142 and Il-38, the Tu is pretty much retired and the Il-38s recently got modernized, but i can't find anything on whether there's an export variant or not, and what is Russia's answer to the P-8?

I belive Tu-142s are still in service with Naval airbases in Fedotovo and Mongokhto, probably around 10, those are the only long range ASW fixed wing aircraft Russia atm fields. Il-38 modernisation is still underway, those are expected to serve another 10-15 years after modernisation.

Atm Russia does not really have anything in same class as P-8. There were proposed few replacement for current ASW aircraft. Mostly not materialised by now, those were supposed to be based on Tu-204, Be-200, Be-40...

How capable are the TU-142s and IL-38s?

VladimirSahin wrote:

Militarov wrote:

AlfaT8 wrote:Apparently Vietnam is shown some interest in acquiring P-3s from the U.S, i looked it up and i find the Tu-142 and Il-38, the Tu is pretty much retired and the Il-38s recently got modernized, but i can't find anything on whether there's an export variant or not, and what is Russia's answer to the P-8?

I belive Tu-142s are still in service with Naval airbases in Fedotovo and Mongokhto, probably around 10, those are the only long range ASW fixed wing aircraft Russia atm fields. Il-38 modernisation is still underway, those are expected to serve another 10-15 years after modernisation.

Atm Russia does not really have anything in same class as P-8. There were proposed few replacement for current ASW aircraft. Mostly not materialised by now, those were supposed to be based on Tu-204, Be-200, Be-40...

How capable are the TU-142s and IL-38s?

We do not know much about their capabilities as probably even Russians themself are not sure due to their specific operation nature. But we know that latest version of Tu-142 was able to detect and track Oscar subs in trials that took place in late 80s. Naturally today their capabilities are not really to be compared with latest ASW aircraft.

When its about IL-38 with this upgrate from what we could read around it should be near capabilities of other modern medium range ASW aircraft, i say near as not all of its original equipment was not replaced but rather improved or overhauled.

But we all hope for new fixed wing ASW-maritime patrol variant to come in upcoming years, two variants actually would be the best, one based on Be-200/Be-40 and another on turbofan platform for longer ranges.

From the information I have read the domestic version of Sea Dragon should actually be pretty state of the art, and that there are versions for the Il-38 and Tu-142.

The only problems I have read about regarding the Bear is that its high speed design... ie swept wings make deploying ULW or ultra low wave antennas for communications with subs is difficult as the low flight speeds needed to deploy the several km long cables that have to be deployed near vertically means flying at close to stall speed for the Bear... which is an issue of course.

GarryB wrote:From the information I have read the domestic version of Sea Dragon should actually be pretty state of the art, and that there are versions for the Il-38 and Tu-142.

The only problems I have read about regarding the Bear is that its high speed design... ie swept wings make deploying ULW or ultra low wave antennas for communications with subs is difficult as the low flight speeds needed to deploy the several km long cables that have to be deployed near vertically means flying at close to stall speed for the Bear... which is an issue of course.

well the problem with export of ASW aircrafts in Russia is that there are no suitable platforms anytime soon. Tu-204 might be but for other reasons is dead...

I see, so basically not capable enough to find modern US subs as in the way US ASW air craft can find Russian subs.

VladimirSahin wrote:I see, so basically not capable enough to find modern US subs as in the way US ASW air craft can find Russian subs.

I see problem abit different, problem is the number of platforms that Russia has. There are very few ASW and maritime patrol aircraft in Russian inventory in general.

Atm in US there are like 100 P3 Orion variants, about 40 or so P8A with 120ish in total on order. Japan for an example also has almost 150 maritime patrol/ASW aircraft and nearly 100 P3s...

Militarov wrote:

VladimirSahin wrote:I see, so basically not capable enough to find modern US subs as in the way US ASW air craft can find Russian subs.

I see problem abit different, problem is the number of platforms that Russia has. There are very few ASW and maritime patrol aircraft in Russian inventory in general.

Atm in US there are like 100 P3 Orion variants, about 40 or so P8A with 120ish in total on order. Japan for an example also has almost 150 maritime patrol/ASW aircraft and nearly 100 P3s...

F*** sanctions

Boeing's P-8 Poseidon can cast close to $256.5 million each.P-8 does not have Magnetic Anomally Dectection sensors.US Navy chooses not to use it. Navy assumes it'll use P8 at high altitude.P-8 is designed to operate at higher altitudes. Navy will probably realize it needs the MAD and they'll have to SLEP the P-3's, or give in and put the MAD on the P-8.

They probably use a mass spectrometry based system to detect exhaust fumes. Unsure what that'll do against a nuclear powered submarine.my guess is they'll go for sonobuoys from above. I hope they can carry enough sonobuoys. The next alternative is to use a MAD on a reel, but one that won't snap at the cruising speed of a P-8? Might be tricky.

The acoustic detection system of a P-8 is 2x as effective as that of the P-3, and this is used to advance the claim that the MAD is not necessary. Unsure how I feel about this, especially since it is not an aircraft capability, but that of its sonobuoys (which cannot be retrieved and re-used, which limits the "fishing" capability of the P-8; it must be reasonably sure before it drops buoys into the water).


Vladimir Sahnin don't overestimate US ASW skills . I don't know why many people carry the preconceived notion that US ASW skills are extraordinary.




Surprised to know Russian ASW planes are limited in number let alone any future export model

But what I've read ( can be wrong also) that Russian Sonar systems(Acoustics) are quite efficient and capable to track enemy subs in littoral waters and maybe around arctic. Is it true ?

VladimirSahin wrote:

Militarov wrote:

VladimirSahin wrote:I see, so basically not capable enough to find modern US subs as in the way US ASW air craft can find Russian subs.

I see problem abit different, problem is the number of platforms that Russia has. There are very few ASW and maritime patrol aircraft in Russian inventory in general.

Atm in US there are like 100 P3 Orion variants, about 40 or so P8A with 120ish in total on order. Japan for an example also has almost 150 maritime patrol/ASW aircraft and nearly 100 P3s...

F*** sanctions

Well this problem exists since early 90s when many ASW aircrafts were retired and spots were never filled later on.

Regarding your question about nuclear warheads for depth charges Max... as Russian subs get quieter the likelyhood of detecting them at a range where you can use nuke warheads reduces... Sea Lance never entered US service because there was no point... its increase in range over ASROC and SUBROC was pointless because they could no longer detect Russian subs at the longer range.

I see problem abit different, problem is the number of platforms that Russia has. There are very few ASW and maritime patrol aircraft in Russian inventory in general.

I agree, but they have more MPAs than the UK...

I see, so basically not capable enough to find modern US subs as in the way US ASW air craft can find Russian subs.

Actually I would say Sea Dragon in its domestic version is totally comparable to anything the west has, the problem for both sides is that Russian subs have gotten quieter... to the point where active sonar has become a necessary tactic for surface vessels to detect subs at anything like a useful range on anything like a regular basis. AIP equipped subs will make this even more pronounced as they are quieter than nuke subs.

Well this problem exists since early 90s when many ASW aircrafts were retired and spots were never filled later on.

ASW is expensive.

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

GarryB wrote:From the information I have read the domestic version of Sea Dragon should actually be pretty state of the art, and that there are versions for the Il-38 and Tu-142.

The only problems I have read about regarding the Bear is that its high speed design... ie swept wings make deploying ULW or ultra low wave antennas for communications with subs is difficult as the low flight speeds needed to deploy the several km long cables that have to be deployed near vertically means flying at close to stall speed for the Bear... which is an issue of course.

well the problem with export of ASW aircrafts in Russia is that there are no suitable platforms anytime soon. Tu-204 might be but for other reasons is dead...

Why not a derivative of the Be-200 ??

archangelski wrote:

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

GarryB wrote:From the information I have read the domestic version of Sea Dragon should actually be pretty state of the art, and that there are versions for the Il-38 and Tu-142.

The only problems I have read about regarding the Bear is that its high speed design... ie swept wings make deploying ULW or ultra low wave antennas for communications with subs is difficult as the low flight speeds needed to deploy the several km long cables that have to be deployed near vertically means flying at close to stall speed for the Bear... which is an issue of course.

well the problem with export of ASW aircrafts in Russia is that there are no suitable platforms anytime soon. Tu-204 might be but for other reasons is dead...

Why not a derivative of the Be-200 ??

Be-200 is one of the options, however that would be short to medium range ASW aircraft but if someone asked me Be-42 variant with turboprops would be alot better idea. They also need something long range, with current situation probably something based on turbofan engines (Tu-204?).

http://www.beriev.com/eng/A-42PE_e/A-42PE_e.html

Militarov wrote:

Be-200 is one of the options, however that would be short to medium range ASW aircraft but if someone asked me Be-42 variant with turboprops would be alot better idea. They also need something long range, with current situation probably something based on turbofan engines (Tu-204?).

http://www.beriev.com/eng/A-42PE_e/A-42PE_e.html

Be-42 was in consideration recently for Russian Navy to replace venerable Be-12, but there is no more news of that intent (and turboprop version was planned with D-27 engines...unfortunately made in Ukraine).

archangelski wrote:

Militarov wrote:

Be-200 is one of the options, however that would be short to medium range ASW aircraft but if someone asked me Be-42 variant with turboprops would be alot better idea. They also need something long range, with current situation probably something based on turbofan engines (Tu-204?).

http://www.beriev.com/eng/A-42PE_e/A-42PE_e.html

Be-42 was in consideration recently for Russian Navy to replace venerable Be-12, but there is no more news of that intent (and turboprop version was planned with D-27 engines...unfortunately made in Ukraine).

There is always some NK-12 more modern variant as an option.

Militarov wrote:

archangelski wrote:

Militarov wrote:

Be-200 is one of the options, however that would be short to medium range ASW aircraft but if someone asked me Be-42 variant with turboprops would be alot better idea. They also need something long range, with current situation probably something based on turbofan engines (Tu-204?).

http://www.beriev.com/eng/A-42PE_e/A-42PE_e.html

Be-42 was in consideration recently for Russian Navy to replace venerable Be-12, but there is no more news of that intent (and turboprop version was planned with D-27 engines...unfortunately made in Ukraine).

There is always some NK-12 more modern variant as an option.  

Probably more efficient, new engines will increase range...now not too impressive comparing to Tu-204. But choice was already made AFAIK.

By 2020, anti-submarine amphibian be-12 will be replaced by seaplanes A-40

https://lenta.ru/new/2016/03/03/albatros/

By 2020, anti-submarine amphibian be-12 will be replaced by seaplanes A-40. This was stated by the chief of the naval aviation of the black sea fleet Colonel Gennady Pens, reports RIA Novosti.

Earlier, in July 2015, a senior source in the leadership of the Navy arguedthat the military order of the anti-submarine aircraft based on amphibian be-200, which, in turn, was created in 1990-ies with the use of hurt on the plane A-40.

Anti-submarine amphibian aircraft A-40 (Be-42 "Albatross" was developed in the early 1980-ies in the USSR to replace the be-12. For the first time the car took off in 1986, in 1990, was put into service, but mass production never got (been released just two instances). In 1998 there was a civil aircraft be-200 (fire-fighting and search and rescue variants) created on the basis of A-40.

Machine takeoff weight of about 90 tons was powered by two turbojet engines D-30КВП (option engines from the Il-76 aircraft). The plane boasted a maximum speed of 760 kilometers per hour and carry up to 6.5 tons of payload. In the airborne weapons could come in three anti-submarine torpedo at-3 "Orlan", four anti-submarine missile the APR-2 "Hawk" or six MAY-3 "eagle", as well as mines, depth charges and sonobuoys.

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

Militarov wrote:

archangelski wrote:

Militarov wrote:

Be-200 is one of the options, however that would be short to medium range ASW aircraft but if someone asked me Be-42 variant with turboprops would be alot better idea. They also need something long range, with current situation probably something based on turbofan engines (Tu-204?).

http://www.beriev.com/eng/A-42PE_e/A-42PE_e.html

Be-42 was in consideration recently for Russian Navy to replace venerable Be-12, but there is no more news of that intent (and turboprop version was planned with D-27 engines...unfortunately made in Ukraine).

There is always some NK-12 more modern variant as an option.  

Probably more efficient, new engines will increase range...now not too impressive comparing to Tu-204. But choice was already made AFAIK.

By 2020, anti-submarine amphibian be-12 will be replaced by seaplanes A-40

https://lenta.ru/new/2016/03/03/albatros/

By 2020, anti-submarine amphibian be-12 will be replaced by seaplanes A-40. This was stated by the chief of the naval aviation of the black sea fleet Colonel Gennady Pens, reports RIA Novosti.

Earlier, in July 2015, a senior source in the leadership of the Navy arguedthat the military order of the anti-submarine aircraft based on amphibian be-200, which, in turn, was created in 1990-ies with the use of hurt on the plane A-40.

Anti-submarine amphibian aircraft A-40 (Be-42 "Albatross" was developed in the early 1980-ies in the USSR to replace the be-12. For the first time the car took off in 1986, in 1990, was put into service, but mass production never got (been released just two instances). In 1998 there was a civil aircraft be-200 (fire-fighting and search and rescue variants) created on the basis of A-40.

Machine takeoff weight of about 90 tons was powered by two turbojet engines D-30КВП (option engines from the Il-76 aircraft). The plane boasted a maximum speed of 760 kilometers per hour and carry up to 6.5 tons of payload. In the airborne weapons could come in three anti-submarine torpedo at-3 "Orlan", four anti-submarine missile the APR-2 "Hawk" or six MAY-3 "eagle", as well as mines, depth charges and sonobuoys.

Yeah, however turboprops would perform alot better for such platform, especially due to fact its to be medium range/weight ASW platform.

Militarov wrote: Yeah, however turboprops would perform alot better for such platform, especially due to fact its to be medium range/weight ASW platform.

Then Il-114 seems to be best option. Same range (w/o additional tans), similar range/load...I wonder if flying boat buyancy counts here?


IMHO best would be ASW based on Bartini Beriev VVA-14

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartini_Beriev_VVA-14