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    Buk SAM system General Thread

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    Rmf

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Rmf on Sun Oct 23, 2016 8:25 pm

    what , no aesa? kinda dissapointing....
    also that IR camera could have been doubled for passive ranging.
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    George1

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  George1 on Mon Oct 24, 2016 12:52 pm

    i like a lot the red tubes!! thumbsup



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    Austin

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Austin on Mon Oct 24, 2016 1:06 pm

    Looks like they use SARH guidance and not ARH for M3 similar to BUK-M2
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    Militarov

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Militarov on Mon Oct 24, 2016 1:47 pm

    Austin wrote:Looks like they use SARH guidance and not ARH for M3 similar to BUK-M2

    That actually would depend on missile rather than system itself. System itself should be capable of using all missiles developed for BuK, as long as they are containered. I suspect both SARH and ARH (or hybrids with terminal ARH) will exist.

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Austin on Wed Oct 26, 2016 2:22 pm

    Sort of confirmation BUK-M3 missile uses Active Radar Homing

    First Division SAM "Buk-M3" has already entered service with the Russian army. The difference is a new modification dramatically increased the range of the set - up to 70 km and a height of hitting the target - up to 35 km. "Buk-M3" is equipped with a new anti-aircraft missile 9M317M capable of acting on a "fire and forget." In this case the missile is now in the transport and launch container and start vertically (as C-300), instead of the target dovorachivat as old model "Bukov". With the new range of radar can simultaneously track and direct missiles at 36 targets.

    Читайте далее: http://izvestia.ru/news/640469#ixzz4OC2uvchp

    kopyo-21

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  kopyo-21 on Sat Oct 29, 2016 8:21 am

    Militarov wrote:
    Austin wrote:Looks like they use SARH guidance and not ARH for M3 similar to BUK-M2

    That actually would depend on missile rather than system itself. System itself should be capable of using all missiles developed for BuK, as long as they are containered. I suspect both SARH and ARH (or hybrids with terminal ARH) will exist.
    Still depending on the system because the their guidance methods are different each other. The Sarh missiles use mid-course radio-commmand while Arh missiles use mid-course data-link updated. The guidance difference makes Arh missiles can launch vertically instead.

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Austin on Sat Oct 29, 2016 8:40 am

    I am fairly certain now that BUK-M3 has Active Radar Homing for terminal guidance and the missile is not the same as Shtil-1 VLS which is 9M317M but a new missile or a deeply modernised variant of 9M317M.

    I have reasoned out at keypubs and I am posting my analysis for both systems below

     
    specs being displayed for Naval Shtil-1 system in VLS mode and BUK-M3 , these specs are drastically different infact to the extent the BUK-M3 would hardly be called a continuation of BUK if there was no mention of it.

    There is some smoke/mirror screen being played out.

    Think how can the same missile for BUK-M3 will show drastically different characteristics for VLS Naval SAM ?

    Naval VLS Shtil-1:  Range : 50 Km , Target Speed  850 m/sec , Altitude : 15 km , Number of Simultanous target track/guide : Max 12

    https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-O3UgLpMK_k0/WACnMiLNhoI/AAAAAAAALsg/BiBRsXSKNJQuEIJKmCVe220AyZBkN2UYwCLcB/s1600/VL%2B9M317ME%2BSHTIL-1.jpg
    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_mDvQ8xYRdSI/TIXoSmnBSrI/AAAAAAAABE8/NvWaduMkw8M/s1600/SHTIL-4.jpg
    http://sohanews2.vcmedia.vn/2013/25-57902-b0d147cc3bbf694-1373192344843.jpg
    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_mDvQ8xYRdSI/TIYD90dn9zI/AAAAAAAABFM/9yBjPpIiO8E/s1600/Image-14.jpg

    BUK-M3:  Range: 70 km , Altitude: 25km , Target Speed: 3000 m/sec , Number of Similtanous target track/guide missile : 36 , Kill Probability: 0.999

    Do these interceptor looks identical by any yard stick ?

    As to why not 36 target , SARH guides the target till interception and hence there is a limitation on how many it can track and guide  you can clearly see the limitation to max 12-16 wrt to Shtil-1 , also you need multiple engagement radar , I read total 8 Orek to track/guide 16 Shtil-1 missile.

    When it comes to BUK-M3 it can track guide 36 missile because ARH allows you the independence in terminal homing leaving the radar to provide MCG to large number of targets  in air for the missile till such time Terminal Homing takes over it get completely independent unlike SARH guidance hence they can track/guide 36 missile  , Also they mentioned a kill probability of 0.999 for BUK-M3 system ,The Track/Guide and Kill probability is a clear indication BUK-M3 has some form of terminal guidance.

    Hence they claim that VLS Shtil-1 and BUK-M3 uses identical missile is as good as stating Mig-29 and Mig-23 are identical aircraft.
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    Militarov

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Militarov on Sat Oct 29, 2016 5:10 pm

    kopyo-21 wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    Austin wrote:Looks like they use SARH guidance and not ARH for M3 similar to BUK-M2

    That actually would depend on missile rather than system itself. System itself should be capable of using all missiles developed for BuK, as long as they are containered. I suspect both SARH and ARH (or hybrids with terminal ARH) will exist.
    Still depending on the system because the their guidance methods are different each other. The Sarh missiles use mid-course radio-commmand while Arh missiles use mid-course data-link updated. The guidance difference makes Arh missiles can launch vertically instead.

    No reason at all for system not to support both actually.

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  kopyo-21 on Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:31 am

    Militarov wrote:No reason at all for system not to support both actually.
    Yes but currently the mid-course data-link updated guidance is not available on Buk-M2 so they need to be upgraded both avionics and launchers for new Arh missiles.
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    storm333

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  storm333 on Sun Oct 30, 2016 3:10 am

    Does anyone possess further information on the The tele-thermal imaging target designator that has replaced the optical trackers?


    Austin

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Austin on Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:15 pm

    Some interesting information on 9M317 missile of BUK series

    Universal high performance rocket








    Creating a missile 9M317 family was held in accordance with the trend of global missile in terms of anti-aircraft guided medium-range missiles. For a number of parameters 9M317 missile has the best value among similar products. For the first time in its practical shooting was confirmed by the high efficiency of the defeat anti-ship missiles flying at super small (up to 5 m) altitude.
    Open architecture means external information support, ease and simplicity requirements to allow the launcher to use them more than a dozen different versions of air defense systems of the Ground Forces and the Navy of Russia and some foreign countries.
    Tactical and technical characteristics of the missiles to ensure its effective use in the fight against air attack weapons: the aircraft of all classes of helicopters, including hover, cruise missiles for various purposes, the elements of high-precision weapons. Due to the flexibility of the technical solutions embodied in the onboard equipment missiles and combat means SAM, the first time for complexes with semi-active radar homing able to provide an effective fire on the radio-and surface targets.
    Another result of the unification and universality of the rocket was to create on its basis missiles with active radar homing head, ensuring the implementation of the principle of "shot - forgot." This modification SAM 9M317 missile family has come full cycle of working out as part of one of the complexes, applying SAM 9M317. If necessary, after a short OCD, the missile can be adapted to other complexes, using family 9M317 missiles.
    Universal missiles 9M317 allow the customer to set up inter-service fleet of missiles in the interest of the supply ship missiles type SAM "Calm" and military-type SAM "Buk". Interspecific missiles park will allow the customer to arrange its effective application, depending on the conditions prevailing at a particular theater, to realize the maneuver means and forces to increase the stability of the rocket and the technical support of the Armed Forces. This makes it possible to significantly save material resources for maintenance.
    PJSC "SPDE" extensive use of the concept of integrated software family 9M317 missile operation, involves the provision of a full range of customer services. At the heart of this system - services, providing assistance in the delivery of programs rockets management programs supply to operate, service to provide test equipment, materials, solution engineering and industrial issues, assistance in contract work and the implementation of welfare programs, the required level of quality of our products.

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Austin on Mon Oct 31, 2016 7:31 am

    Although if one compares the capability of Shtil-1 and BUK-3 they are too drastic that BUK-M3 would get classfied as new missile system ... even if you say increase the diameter of Shtil-1 missile by few cm and use new kind of energetic propulsion to get higher range , top & average speed and some modified control then one cant really notice it by mere looking at photographic comparision.

    At 35 km altitude of interception BUK-M3 would likely be getting new control system based on TVC , may be the gas dynamic based TVC used on 9M96 missile , at those altitude conventional control surface are pretty useless and 9M96 seems to have even smaller control surface then BUK-2 missile.

    Another clear indication is the number of track/attack and 0,999 claimed capability its possible to get such high probability by some kind of terminal homing be it ARH or IIR certainly for SARH its not possible.

    Never mind this cleared even my doubts , The picture in the link of BUK-M2 attacking ground targets and even ship target based on pure ballistic profile , Clearly gives credence to Russian claim that the GroundBased SM-3 based system in Europe can act as BM with simple change of software and can attack Russian ground targets with known co-ordinate out to range of 1200 plus km in pure ballisctic profile clearly violating INF treaty. If BUK-M2 can do it a more sophisticated system with far better target discrimination can easily take out pin point ground target , What they would need it a small warhead of 100 kg or worse sub-kiloton Nuclear weapon which can easily package under 50 kg !
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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Mon Oct 31, 2016 7:41 am

    Austin wrote:Although if one compares the capability of Shtil-1 and BUK-3 they are too drastic that BUK-M3 would get classfied as new missile system ... even if you say increase the diameter of Shtil-1 missile by few cm and use new kind of energetic propulsion to get higher range , top & average speed and some modified control then one cant really notice it by mere looking at photographic comparision.

    At 35 km altitude of interception BUK-M3 would likely be getting new control system based on TVC , may be the gas dynamic based TVC used on 9M96 missile , at those altitude conventional control surface are pretty useless and 9M96 seems to have even smaller control surface then BUK-2 missile.

    Another clear indication is the number of track/attack and 0,999 claimed capability its possible to get such high probability by some kind of terminal homing be it ARH or IIR certainly for SARH its not possible.

    Never mind this cleared even my doubts , The picture in the link of BUK-M2 attacking ground targets and even ship target based on pure ballistic profile , Clearly gives credence to Russian claim that the GroundBased SM-3 based system in Europe can act as BM with simple change of software and can attack Russian ground targets with known co-ordinate out to range of 1200 plus km in pure ballisctic profile clearly violating INF treaty. If BUK-M2 can do it a more sophisticated system with far better target discrimination can easily take out pin point ground target , What they would need it a small warhead of 100 kg or worse sub-kiloton Nuclear weapon which can easily package under 50 kg !

    Not just that, the Aegis-Ashore MK-41 system is capable of launching cruise missiles, it's even advertised in their brochures and promotional video, which is pure blatant disregard/violation of the INF-Treaty by Uncle Sham!
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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  kvs on Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:50 pm

    You just know it when Uncle Scumbag starts bitching about Russian "violations" he is doing the gross violating himself.

    Russia needs a merciless, uncompromising response to Uncle Scumbag. If this means jettisoning the various arms control
    treaties then so be it. Uncle Scumbag needs instant justice for any attempt at nuclear aggression against Russia.

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Austin on Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:57 pm

    Indeed INF treaty and START has now become relic of past , None of these treaties when signed has to worry about US global deployment that US is currently doing both in Land and Sea , All these simply dilute relevance of INF/START treaty and works to advantage of US in keeping these treaties.

    Russia should work with China and work out a comprehensive Economic and Security agreement , May be let China inside CSTO , Dump USD/Euro and move towards to Gold/SDR/Renminbi
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    Viktor

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Viktor on Mon Oct 31, 2016 4:24 pm

    kvs wrote:You just know it when Uncle Scumbag starts bitching about Russian "violations" he is doing the gross violating himself.  

    Russia needs a merciless, uncompromising response to Uncle Scumbag.    If this means jettisoning the various arms control
    treaties then so be it.    Uncle Scumbag needs instant justice for any attempt at nuclear aggression against Russia.  

    Russia does not want to get confrontational with EU and thats the approach US is using to push its agenda. Otherwise Russia would exit INF treaty a long time ago by my opinion.
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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Tue Nov 01, 2016 1:50 am

    Viktor wrote:
    kvs wrote:You just know it when Uncle Scumbag starts bitching about Russian "violations" he is doing the gross violating himself.  

    Russia needs a merciless, uncompromising response to Uncle Scumbag.    If this means jettisoning the various arms control
    treaties then so be it.    Uncle Scumbag needs instant justice for any attempt at nuclear aggression against Russia.  

    Russia does not want to get confrontational with EU and thats the approach US is using to push its agenda. Otherwise Russia would exit INF treaty a long time ago by my opinion.

    Maybe the proper response would be not to publicly leave the INF treaty, but to publicly leave the MTCR treaty, say for example develop a joint venture and TOT with Cuba on long distance "recon" UAV's.
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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Viktor on Sun Nov 13, 2016 2:05 am

    Nice article about BUK-M3

    https://topwar.ru/102883-voyskovaya-pvo-otkryvaet-novye-gorizonty-chto-izmenitsya-s-prihodom-buk-m3.html
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    franco

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  franco on Mon Nov 28, 2016 11:08 pm

    The rest of the BUK M3 brigade has apparently arrived and will soon go on combat duty. Still not clear of unit or location but the writer believes it will go to the new (90th) brigade being formed somewhere in the Rostov region.

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2288709.html

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Austin on Wed Nov 30, 2016 6:31 am

    New delivered "BuK-M3" AD bat. consists of:




    https://twitter.com/RSS_40/status/803491916075692032
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    Militarov

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Militarov on Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:20 am

    Austin wrote:New delivered "BuK-M3" AD bat. consists of:




    https://twitter.com/RSS_40/status/803491916075692032

    Are those containers coming in pairs or each one separately? I see those "push to lock" mechanisms there.
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    franco

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  franco on Sat Dec 03, 2016 2:14 pm

    The second new Buk brigade formed. The unidentified as of yet unit will be stationed in the Buryatia Republic. It will be equipped with BUK-M2. The first new unit (90th) was just formed in the Rostov region and received the BUK-M3.

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2302632.html
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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Viktor on Sat Dec 24, 2016 10:55 am

    franco wrote:The second new Buk brigade formed. The unidentified as of yet unit will be stationed in the Buryatia Republic. It will be equipped with BUK-M2. The first new unit (90th) was just formed in the Rostov region and received the BUK-M3.

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2302632.html

    And the final one Very Happy - from now on, only BUK-M3

    http://vpk-news.ru/news/34456

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Austin on Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:15 am

    CEO NIIP Tikhomirov, Yuri White: "Among the mobile medium-range SAM equal complex" Buk-M3 'combat effectiveness, there is no "

    http://militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=2&nid=437838

    For information on how to solve any problem capable of "Buk-M3", what its advantages over other mobile complexes of medium-range air defense missile system is planned to whether the offer for export has told to "Interfax-AVN" CEO NIIP Tikhomirov, Yuri WHITE.

    - Yuri Ivanovich, what new SAM "Buk-M3" is different from the systems "Buk" of previous generations, which today are in service with the Army troops? -


    SAM "Buk-M3" - this is the fourth generation of mobile systems, medium-range, which is the main developer of our institute. By the way, 23 January marks 50 years from the date adopted the first set of "Cube", which was delivered to 27 countries under the export name "Square". Despite his advanced age he still is in service with a number of countries and is still in the "Rosoboronexport" proposals come with a request for its modernization. A new generation of complex "Buk-M3", while maintaining the overall structure of the construction of SAM "Buk-M2", dramatically surpasses it in the main tactical and technical characteristics. Firstly, Ammunition missiles as part of the division significantly increased, which is obviously significantly increases the combat effectiveness of the complex at the reflection of a massive raid of air attack. Now on each self-propelled fire installation (SDA) instead of 4 ready for battle missiles located 6, and each launcher (PU) instead of 8 to 12 missiles. Second, significantly increased the kill zone the whole range of purposes from wind to tactical and cruise missiles, enhanced immunity, vitality and reliability of the system. Third, through the use of semikatkovyh (instead shestikatkovyh) crawler chassis increased throughput and load capacity of combat weapons complex, and the use of special transport-launch containers for missiles has improved performance.

    - What is a rocket used in the SAM "Buk-M3": the same as in the previous complexes, or brand new?


    Will she be able to hit ballistic and highly maneuverable high-speed targets such as cruise missile?  - For SAM "Buk-M3" Dolgoprudnenskoye NPP is designed and manufactured entirely new missile 9M317M that has no analogues in the world in its class. Unlike 9M317 missile complex "Buk-M2" of its performance characteristics are increased by almost half, and, of course, greatly increased performance for the defeat of tactical ballistic missiles and cruise missiles. However, in the new complex is provided and shooting missiles 9M317 by using start-charging units (ROM) from the SAM "Buk-M2".

    - Has practical shooting SAM "Buk-M3" before sending them to the troops, whether in these firings military experts involved?


    - Yes, of course, provided such shooting applicable standards for the transfer of technology public customers. Including held with the participation of military experts on the successful launch of a target simulating a tactical ballistic missiles. With regard to military staff calculations, these firings are usually carried out later.

    - How it was organized retraining crews on SAM "Buk-M3"? -


    The developer task is to create a design and operational documentation. Furthermore, the state customer usually orders combat weapons development simulators complex. A self learning calculations carried out in special training centers of the Ministry of Defence.

    - When delivered Russian Defense Ministry complex will step up combat duty?


    - The answer to a question - the competence of the government customer

    Whether the development is underway Marine version of the complex "Buk-M3"?


    - The development of naval air defense system - it is not our profile. Marine air defense systems such as "Calm", "Hurricane", which used missile complexes series "Beech", developing other businesses VKO Group "Almaz-Antey".

    - Will SAM "Buk-M3" offered for export, and if so, when advertising a passport for that product will be issued?


    - Yes, the task set by the Group CEO of EKO "Almaz-Antey" Ian V. Novikov, and currently is working on a passport image export. On approval of the parent organizations, we offered to give the name of the export version of the complex - "Area". The proposed name is associated with the name of the first-generation air defense system in export version - "Square". It appears that the wide popularity of the complex "Square" abroad will contribute to successful promotion in the external market complex "Buk-M3E" ( "Area"), figuratively speaking - "Square" with a bang!

    - Do you have SAM "Buk-M3" foreign counterparts?


    - According to information available to us on the combat effectiveness among mobile complexes class of medium-range equal complex "Buk-M3 'does not exist. To some extent, can be attributed to an analog of the complex European SAMP-T.

    - The forum "Army 2016" was announced, that started development work on the creation of anti-aircraft missile systems of medium-range fifth generation. How long does it take to develop this complex, when it can be put into service?


    - Yes, the company EKO "Almaz-Antey" took a principled decision on the continuation of work on the line SAM "Buk" without waiting for the official registration of the TOR (terms of reference) from the Ministry of Defense. This decision was approved by a panel MIC and such work takes place at the expense of own funds of the Group. From domestic and foreign experience of creating such complex high-tech systems require about 7-10 years. Of course, we all hope that the period of development will not be repeated "hard times" of the 1990s.
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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  George1 on Mon Jan 23, 2017 1:19 pm

    MOSCOW, January 23. /TASS/. A fifth-generation anti-aircraft missile system based on the Buk medium-range air defense missile complex can be developed within 7-10 years, Director of the Tikhomirov R&D Institute of Instrument-Making Yuri Bely told TASS.

    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/926693


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