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    Buk SAM system General Thread

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    medo
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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  medo on Tue Mar 01, 2016 11:21 pm

    Viktor wrote:
    medo wrote:
    Viktor wrote:
    medo wrote:
    Viktor wrote:During 2016 Russian Army PVO will receive 3 BUK-M2 regiments - same as in 2015

    The Russian military will have in 2016 three new division "Buckow"

    3 battalions, not regiments. Anyway in 2 years they will receive 1 and a half brigade of Buk-M2, what is good.

    Divisions in Army PVO means regiments because there cn never be battery organizational unit in Army PVO

    AFAIK army PVO also have batteries. 4 Tor TELARs form a battery. 6 Tunguska vehicles form a battery. 6 Strela-10 form a battery. I think they have batteries and divisions (battalions) as higher level. I'm not sure about bigger Buk or S-300 complexes, if there is division (6 launchers) the basic unit or it is divided in batteries also (3 launchers).

    All true. But because in Army PVO short range units serve for the protection of bigger ranged units while in teritorial they can serve indenpendently. This is because Army PVO units have bigger minimum kill zone than territorial PVO and that thy are exposed to much more than territorial units and the same reason why army PVO units have only regiment as a smallest operational unit ... Smile
    Thats why Army PVO units that counts as a protection only serves bigger ranged SAMs.

    Army PVO are therefore more rigid even in electronics and beceuse which is why more prone to countermeassures (but was hastly dealth with in latter on modifications and the unification with Baikal-1M)

    I'm not sure if you are not mixing VKO-PVO with Army PVO. I think VKO-PVO have regiments, where SHORAD battery like Pantsir is there exactly for protection of S-300/400 regiment and 2 regiments form a brigade. Army PVO is different, because it is mostly not in form of independent unit, but inside bigger ground forces unit, like air defense battery inside ground forces battalion or air defense division inside ground forces brigade and larger the unit, longer is the range of air defense. In battalion level air defense is mostly VSHORAD like MANPADs or Strela-10, in brigade you have longer range SHORADs and maybe even medium range Buk (depend on importance of brigade). In ground forces division you have medium range Buks and maybe even long range S-300V, while in army you have all levels of air defense and their commanding line went in the same way as with units, they are defending.
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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Viktor on Wed Mar 02, 2016 8:07 am

    You can easily check over the internet but its other way around. Army PVO units exist only as a regimental units as smallest operational units. VKO-PVO has battery (division) as a smallest operational unit.
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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Viktor on Wed Mar 02, 2016 9:55 pm

    Also new BUK-M3 regiment is scheduled for 2016 entry as S-350 is going on state acceptance tests. Only thing missing is Morfei but nevertheless they batter take their time and made it as was envisaged  Very Happy
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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Thu Mar 03, 2016 6:16 am

    Viktor wrote:Also new BUK-M3 regiment is scheduled for 2016 entry as S-350 is going on state acceptance tests. Only thing missing is Morfei but nevertheless they batter take their time and made it as was envisaged  Very Happy

    I really hope Morfei comes with a high amount of missiles per launcher. Ideally speaking I hope Morfei has at least 50 missiles per launcher, because at such point blank range (5 km max range) you'll need to saturate PGM's with a abnormally high amount of missiles to make up for the short range (assuming some how the Pantsir's and Tor's are out of the picture), with many missiles to spare. Nothings scarier than being on the receiving end of a Grad salvo!
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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Viktor on Sat Mar 12, 2016 1:46 am

    Does not specify how many but some new BUK-M2 just arrived in the South Military district thumbsup

    "Buk-M2" put in 106 Training Centre Air Defence Ground Forces
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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:05 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Viktor wrote:Also new BUK-M3 regiment is scheduled for 2016 entry as S-350 is going on state acceptance tests. Only thing missing is Morfei but nevertheless they batter take their time and made it as was envisaged  Very Happy

    I really hope Morfei comes with a high amount of missiles per launcher. Ideally speaking I hope Morfei has at least 50 missiles per launcher, because at such point blank range (5 km max range) you'll need to saturate PGM's with a abnormally high amount of missiles to make up for the short range (assuming some how the Pantsir's and Tor's are out of the picture), with many missiles to spare. Nothings scarier than being on the receiving end of a Grad salvo!

    Even if we take into account all aspects regarding the publication of military specs, the 5 km max range figure for Morfej may be the result of journalistic incompetence. I have seen the more credible figure of 50 km; so the 5 km figure may be just due to journalistic typographical incompetence.
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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 13, 2016 3:06 am

    As far as I am aware the Morfei is intended to be a small short range anti aircraft missile... akin to the SA-9/-11 Strela-10 and R-73 short range AAM. Not a MANPAD but a step up from one...

    In this context I would expect a range of 10-15km from a ground launched model and with an IIR seeker and datalink enabling lock on after launch 10-15km would be the range at which targets could be safely attacked while being detected and identified properly from a ground based launcher.

    I have no evidence to support this, but R-73 is described as being able to hit targets at up to 45km in ideal conditions (ie high altitude launch at high speed against a target with a distinct IR signature heading towards the missile launcher...

    50km range in a similar scenario would make sense to me especially with the lock on after launch datalink and improved seeker...

    For ground launch I think 5-15km range would be reasonable... especially with no booster.


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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  jhelb on Sat Mar 19, 2016 9:22 pm

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:Even if we take into account all aspects regarding the publication of military specs, the 5 km max range figure for Morfej may be the result of journalistic incompetence. I have seen the more credible figure of 50 km; so the 5 km figure may be just due to journalistic typographical incompetence.

    Morpheus, somewhat off topic. Is the speed of an ICBM maximum when it is outside the Earth's atmosphere or is it maximum when it enters the Earth's atmosphere travelling towards its target? Thank You.

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Austin on Thu Mar 24, 2016 12:59 pm

    BUK-M3 Info , It claims it has ARH seeker , Can some one confirm if this is true ?

    http://www.arms-expo.ru/armament/samples/1238/66293/

    Each division, armed SAM "Buk-M3", has targeted 36 channels and is equipped with the latest models of missiles with active GSN.
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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Thu Mar 24, 2016 2:40 pm

    jhelb wrote:
    Morpheus, somewhat off topic. Is the speed of an ICBM maximum when it is outside the Earth's atmosphere or is it maximum when it enters the Earth's atmosphere travelling towards its target? Thank You.

    jhelb,

    Sorry for the late reply. I just saw your post.


    If there was no atmosphere, the speed of the reentry vehicle (RV) would have been maximum at the last point on its trajectory; so for a "surface burst", the speed would have been highest at the surface.

    However, the atmosphere generates drag. Ignoring the engineering issues related to the RV design, due to the interaction between the RV and the atmosphere, the speed at the last point on the trajectory can be lower or higher than the "reentry speed". The reentry speed can be "defined" in this context as the maximum speed during the descending portion of the trajectory before the atmospheric drag starts to "perceptibly" impact the RV's dynamics.

    In the case of a Minuteman III, for example, the speed of the RVs at the last point on their trajectory are much lower than their reentry speed; they are far below hypersonic.

    The Russian hypersonic RVs have hypersonic speeds after the reentry. This hypersonic speed can be higher or lower than the RVs' reentry speed.

    The technologies used to achieve these hypersonic speeds include one or more of the following. With all of these technologies, the speed after the reentry can be higher or lower than the reentry speed.

    1- Very low-drag RV design with exotic heat-resistance techniques.

    2- RVs with propulsion systems like scramjet engines and/or rocket engines.

    3- Variable-geometry RVs.
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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  medo on Thu Mar 24, 2016 6:00 pm

    Austin wrote:BUK-M3 Info , It claims it has ARH seeker , Can some one confirm if this is true ?

    http://www.arms-expo.ru/armament/samples/1238/66293/

    Each division, armed SAM "Buk-M3", has targeted 36 channels and is equipped with the latest models of missiles with active GSN.

    AFAIK Buk-M2 already have ARH with 9M317 missile.
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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  jhelb on Fri Mar 25, 2016 9:15 pm

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    The technologies used to achieve these hypersonic speeds include one or more of the following. With all of these technologies, the speed after the reentry can be higher or lower than the reentry speed.

    1- Very low-drag RV design with exotic heat-resistance techniques.

    2- RVs with propulsion systems like scramjet engines and/or rocket engines.

    3- Variable-geometry RVs.

    Great input as always Morpheus. Many Thanks.

    This is just going to open up into a long line of questions. .I don't want to bother you. Last one, though. I am venturing to guess you won't have the time to explain each of these technologies in details, so can you please share some links, from where I can read about these technologies? Thanks again.

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Sun Mar 27, 2016 11:42 am

    jhelb wrote:
    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    The technologies used to achieve these hypersonic speeds include one or more of the following. With all of these technologies, the speed after the reentry can be higher or lower than the reentry speed.

    1- Very low-drag RV design with exotic heat-resistance techniques.

    2- RVs with propulsion systems like scramjet engines and/or rocket engines.

    3- Variable-geometry RVs.

    Great input as always Morpheus. Many Thanks.

    This is just going to open up into a long line of questions. .I don't want to bother you. Last one, though. I am venturing to guess you won't have the time to explain each of these technologies in details, so can you please share some links, from where I can read about these technologies? Thanks again.

    Thanks, jhelb,

    I'll continue this topic in some future posts.
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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Thu Mar 31, 2016 12:49 pm

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    jhelb wrote:
    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    The technologies used to achieve these hypersonic speeds include one or more of the following. With all of these technologies, the speed after the reentry can be higher or lower than the reentry speed.

    1- Very low-drag RV design with exotic heat-resistance techniques.

    2- RVs with propulsion systems like scramjet engines and/or rocket engines.

    3- Variable-geometry RVs.

    Great input as always Morpheus. Many Thanks.

    This is just going to open up into a long line of questions. .I don't want to bother you. Last one, though. I am venturing to guess you won't have the time to explain each of these technologies in details, so can you please share some links, from where I can read about these technologies? Thanks again.

    Thanks, jhelb,

    I'll continue this topic in some future posts.

    jhelb,

    I moved this topic to http://www.russiadefence.net/t2758p200-russia-us-and-other-developments-in-hypersonic-research#157844


    Last edited by Morpheus Eberhardt on Sun Apr 03, 2016 2:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  jhelb on Sat Apr 02, 2016 1:36 pm


    Sure Morpheus, makes sense.
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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Viktor on Sun Apr 03, 2016 2:02 pm

    It seems that BUK-M2 is entering service en masse Very Happy

    The anti-aircraft missile compound BBO Transbaikalia set SAM "Buk-M2"
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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Sun Apr 03, 2016 2:38 pm

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  medo on Sun Apr 03, 2016 6:18 pm

    Viktor wrote:It seems that BUK-M2 is entering service en masse Very Happy

    The anti-aircraft missile compound BBO Transbaikalia set SAM "Buk-M2"

    True. I think they will produce them parallel with Buk-M3 until Buk-M3 reach needed production level.
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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Apr 05, 2016 7:45 am

    medo wrote:
    Viktor wrote:It seems that BUK-M2 is entering service en masse Very Happy

    The anti-aircraft missile compound BBO Transbaikalia set SAM "Buk-M2"

    True. I think they will produce them parallel with Buk-M3 until Buk-M3 reach needed production level.

    Whats the point? That would be a huge waste of money. Just go straight for the Buk-M3 IMO as it is already going through trials. Might as well wait rather than spend money.
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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Tue Apr 05, 2016 9:26 am

    sepheronx wrote:
    medo wrote:
    Viktor wrote:It seems that BUK-M2 is entering service en masse Very Happy

    The anti-aircraft missile compound BBO Transbaikalia set SAM "Buk-M2"

    True. I think they will produce them parallel with Buk-M3 until Buk-M3 reach needed production level.

    Whats the point?  That would be a huge waste of money.  Just go straight for the Buk-M3 IMO as it is already going through trials.  Might as well wait rather than spend money.

    I am quite certain that many of the deployment related announcements merely constitute retcon situations.
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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  medo on Tue Apr 05, 2016 9:17 pm

    sepheronx wrote:
    medo wrote:
    Viktor wrote:It seems that BUK-M2 is entering service en masse Very Happy

    The anti-aircraft missile compound BBO Transbaikalia set SAM "Buk-M2"

    True. I think they will produce them parallel with Buk-M3 until Buk-M3 reach needed production level.

    Whats the point?  That would be a huge waste of money.  Just go straight for the Buk-M3 IMO as it is already going through trials.  Might as well wait rather than spend money.

    You know, that production line for new product need time to reach full capacity and it also depend on production of new components for them. Buk-M2 is also already established in Russian military, they have crews for them and units could take them quickly in combat duty. On the other side Buk-M3 is new, although very similar to Buk-M2 and will take some time to become fully operational. Times are not nice now and it is better to produce more Buk-M2 for some time and deliver them to combat units, than to loose time and wait for full production of Buk-M3. Buk-M2 is still excellent SAM and Buk-M3 will come in the same time to units. It's nothing wrong to have some more Buk-M2, which could still cover some less important units, when there will be enough Buk-M3 in army.
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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Militarov on Tue Apr 05, 2016 10:22 pm

    sepheronx wrote:
    medo wrote:
    Viktor wrote:It seems that BUK-M2 is entering service en masse Very Happy

    The anti-aircraft missile compound BBO Transbaikalia set SAM "Buk-M2"

    True. I think they will produce them parallel with Buk-M3 until Buk-M3 reach needed production level.

    Whats the point?  That would be a huge waste of money.  Just go straight for the Buk-M3 IMO as it is already going through trials.  Might as well wait rather than spend money.

    In cases like this its mostly issue with new components that are installed and which companies that produce them still didnt manage to put in full scale production.
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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  GarryB on Wed Apr 06, 2016 11:58 am

    Yeah... it is like the Panther problem... changing to produce Panthers they stopped production of perfectly effective Panzer IVs so because Panthers could not be made at the rate the Panzer IVs could be made when Panzer IV production stopped the Panther production was slow so in effect the front troops got neither tank.

    Plenty of older BUK systems in service on land and at sea so production of the older missiles should continue but steps should be taken to convert the existing launchers on land and sea to the new missiles and then old production lines can then be converted to the new missile and there needs to be no shortages of missiles.


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    Post  d_taddei2 on Mon May 30, 2016 10:38 pm

    some eye candy




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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  hoom on Fri Jun 24, 2016 3:22 pm

    Buk-M3 test http://tass.ru/en/defense/884398
    The Buk-M3 system has a range of 70 kilometers ... a maximum firing altitude of 35 kilometers
    Isn't this using 9M317ME missile same as Shtil-1 on Grigorovich?
    Numbers quite a lot bigger than I've seen for that, namely 50km range & 15km vertical, is this dodgy numbers or a Domestic vs Export difference?

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