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    Buk SAM system General Thread

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    GarryB

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  GarryB on Sun Aug 16, 2015 12:30 pm

    Would add that S-350 is likely cheaper... the missiles are smaller and are weight customised, so when targets are detected in close the smaller missile can be used, while targets detected further out can be engaged with the larger missiles.

    the S-350 will probably have more ready to fire missiles on each TEL, but like S-300P it wont have the mobility of the tracked army systems or response times because the airforce systems are optimised as shelterised systems for use on large airfields and other fixed locations, while the army systems are intended to defend forces moving cross country and either firing on the move or from a short halt.

    The Navy will likely introduce the S-350, but will also have the Shtil-1 for export and some domestic gap filler vessels (ie Russian talwars might have Shtil (BUK) or S-350).

    All three branches will be ordering and having in service enormous numbers of SAM missiles so the economies of large production batches applies even if they all have different missiles.


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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  TheArmenian on Sun Aug 16, 2015 1:46 pm

    GarryB wrote:Would add that S-350 is likely cheaper... the missiles are smaller and are weight customised, so when targets are detected in close the smaller missile can be used, while targets detected further out can be engaged with the larger missiles.

    the S-350 will probably have more ready to fire missiles on each TEL, but like S-300P it wont have the mobility of the tracked army systems or response times because the airforce systems are optimised as shelterised systems for use on large airfields and other fixed locations, while the army systems are intended to defend forces moving cross country and either firing on the move or from a short halt.

    The Navy will likely introduce the S-350, but will also have the Shtil-1 for export and some domestic gap filler vessels (ie Russian talwars might have Shtil (BUK) or S-350).

    All three branches will be ordering and having in service enormous numbers of SAM missiles so the economies of large production batches applies even if they all have different missiles.

    Garry,
    The S350 is actually more expensive because of the active homing. Buk is command guided.

    Also, S350 is already in use in the navy on the Steregushy class ships while Buk M3 (as Shtil-1) is on the Grigorovich frigate.
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    flamming_python

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  flamming_python on Sun Aug 16, 2015 4:47 pm

    The S-350 is not anything really unique as such, so it makes no sense to talk about it being installed on naval ships.
    What the S-350 is, is basically the 9M96 missile familly, and the 9M100 missile.

    The Naval Redut systems are already compatible with the 9M96 series and several ships are armed with them; and I'd imagine the Reduts are compatible with the 9M100 too - albeit whether the Navy will actually equip its Reduts with 9M100s is a different question.
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    flamming_python

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  flamming_python on Sun Aug 16, 2015 5:00 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:
    Garry,
    The S350 is actually more expensive because of the active homing. Buk is command guided.

    You mean the S-350's missiles (9M96) are more expensive than the Buk's, right?
    Because I'd be surprised if the complex itself is more expensive; by all logic the Buk battery should be the more expensive one.

    As for the missiles though, well whatever the price of the 9M96 variants, the 9M100 short-range IR missiles that the S-350 can be armed with are certainly cheaper than the Buk's missiles, and will be able to deal with certain targets a lot more economically than the Buk can.

    About the 9M96 missiles - well, I'm sure that they are more expensive than the Buk-M2's (9M317) and earlier missiles, which were all semi-active radar homing in nature.

    The Buk-M3 however uses never missiles (9M31M and/or 9M317A); which are active-radar homing much like the 9M96, can engage faster targets and probably have better manuevering/agility. The only thing the 9M96 series has got up on them is range.
    All in all I doubt that the 9M96s are more expensive than the Buk-M3s missiles.
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    flamming_python

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  flamming_python on Sun Aug 16, 2015 5:09 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:@flaming and @Viktor

    Thanks again  so requirements for Army and ASF are so different that one set of missiles cannot do?

    They probably can but why should they?

    They already have 2 different families of systems; the Buk/Kub familly and the S-300 familly; the former going back to the 60s and the later to the 80s.
    Since their inception these families have grown and evolved and been forked off, and as of 2015 both represent a wide range of different systems with different capabilities optimized for different roles.

    The role for Army mobile air defence is best fulfilled by the Buk-M2/Buk-M3
    The role for Army mobile ABM defence is best fulfilled by the S-300VM (S-300V4)
    The role for Air Force mobile medium-range air defence is best fulfilled by the S-350

    Why should they kill off one of these families after all the investment put into them? As GarryB mentions, both have enough orders/demand (inc. export demand) to make them economical. So if they can both be supported, they should.
    Otherwise you'd end up trying to fulfil the long-range defence role with a Buk-type vehicle, while having S-300 type chassis's trying to keep up with armour formations in the field, firing at threats on the move - and it's clear that it just won't work very well.

    You really do need both families; and since you do - then you might as well take advantage of that and pick and match the variants from either of the 2 familiies that you feel are optimal in a particular role.
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    Viktor

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Viktor on Sun Aug 16, 2015 5:14 pm

    BUK-M3 and S-350 will use same type of missiles = 9M96xx

    Austin

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Austin on Sun Sep 20, 2015 1:41 pm

    "Buk-M3" goes to series

    Preparation for mass production of a new anti-aircraft missile system of medium-range "Buk-M3" has begun in Russia.
    "The design documentation developed by now complex is already in preparation for mass production", - said Tass.

    "Buk-M3" maintains a radar-fire and the architecture of previous versions (M1 / M1-2 / m2), but uses a completely new anti-aircraft missile interceptors 9M317M, which by design is unified with the Marine version 9M317ME complex "Calm-1." The only difference is that the naval version of SAM uses SPMs and land - transport and inclined launchers, each of which can take 6-12 SAM 9M317ME thus only 6 PU SDA can take the amount of ammunition and 72 rockets (in the same complex) .

    These missiles are more perfect, equipped ARGSN, and therefore able to act according to the method of "fire and forget", their much greater flexibility is achieved by using not only the aerodynamic control surfaces, but also the gas-dynamic "zone" control (DPU), which, in all probability, will be able to ensure a rocket hit "hit-to-kil" (kinetic interception of a direct hit), 9M317M missiles can hit targets at a distance of 70 km altitude - around 40,000 meters and at speeds of up to 3000 m / s, the speed of the rocket is very close to that of C 300PMU-2 "Favorit" and is 1550 m / s.

    Complex "Buk-M3" has become "smarter" S-300PS. Considering that the surveillance radar "Dome" is working in the SM-range and can provide target designation homing missiles 9M317M, the number of target channels of the complex increased from 24 to 36 and a set way to handle the most complex list of IOS enemy and protect the ground forces of the merciless blows of tactical aviation enemy attacks missile systems of small and medium-range type ATACMSi others.

    According to fire tests of May 2015 it reported that a promising anti-aircraft missile systems "Buk-M3" is the probability of hitting the aerodynamic purposes of the order of 0.99. The new system will start to be delivered to the military air defense in late November 2015 and will be a system whose parameters are comparable with a new and expensive set of "Hero" in the long term development of the version of "Buk-M4", which is expected to reach the space frontier.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Sep 20, 2015 8:46 pm

    Austin wrote: "Buk-M3" goes to series


    According to fire tests of May 2015 it reported that a promising anti-aircraft missile systems "Buk-M3" is the probability of hitting the aerodynamic purposes of the order of 0.99. The new system will start to be delivered to the military air defense in late November 2015 and will be a system whose parameters are comparable with a new and expensive set of "Hero" in the long term development of the version of "Buk-M4", which is expected to reach the space frontier.

    Buk-M4 ? woow so Buks M4 can hamper democracy expansion even more than M2? In Syria no Turkish or Israeli democracy introduced so far.

    Just wondering if new system will update Sea based Buk version...
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    GarryB

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  GarryB on Mon Sep 21, 2015 11:39 am

    The new system will start to be delivered to the military air defense in late November 2015 and will be a system whose parameters are comparable with a new and expensive set of "Hero" in the long term development of the version of "Buk-M4", which is expected to reach the space frontier.

    Hero being S-350... so the new BUK whose parameters are comparable with the new and expensive S-350... the BUK-M4 will reach space...

    BUK-M3 and S-350 will use same type of missiles = 9M96xx

    No... BUK uses 9M317M missiles, not 9M96xx missiles.


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    sepheronx

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  sepheronx on Mon Sep 21, 2015 1:37 pm

    Whats the point working on both systems then if the new Buks are going to have similar performance (overlapping) in terms of the S-300 series?
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon Sep 21, 2015 3:10 pm

    sepheronx wrote:Whats the point working on both systems then if the new Buks are going to have similar performance (overlapping) in terms of the S-300 series?

    had same concerns pls check my earlier discussion with Flaming Smile I am still puzzled though Smile

    BTW yes Shtil with Buk-M3 missiles is nice add on for navy



    GarryB wrote:
    The new system will start to be delivered to the military air defense in late November 2015 and will be a system whose parameters are comparable with a new and expensive set of "Hero" in the long term development of the version of "Buk-M4", which is expected to reach the space frontier.

    Hero being S-350... so the new BUK whose parameters are comparable with the new and expensive S-350... the BUK-M4 will reach space...
    accidentally PGS hypersonic vehicles are gonnd fly on 50-70km ceiling...
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  sepheronx on Mon Sep 21, 2015 4:17 pm

    Shtil defense system with these newer missiles would be leaps and bounds better than anything else is fielded. But not many ships in Rus navy are fielded with Shtil. Most are still using the arm launch systems of iglas or something else.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon Sep 21, 2015 6:38 pm

    sepheronx wrote:Shtil defense system with these newer missiles would be leaps and bounds better than anything else is fielded. But not many ships in Rus navy are fielded with Shtil. Most are still using the arm launch systems of iglas or something else.


    Shtil is using so far   Admiral Grigorovich class (6) and was to be installed on corvettes 22160 (12?) but nobody says this must be restricted only to those 2 classes.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  GarryB on Tue Sep 22, 2015 11:23 am

    Whats the point working on both systems then if the new Buks are going to have similar performance (overlapping) in terms of the S-300 series?

    Different branches with different requirements... why is the F-22 not carrier capable?

    BUK needs to be able to move with a land based army over fairly rough terrain... the track based systems are designed to enable that, and they will be designed to operate with tanks and armoured vehicles.

    In comparison the S-300 comes on a truck and has enormous radars that need to be set up... it simply can't operate from a short stop like the BUK can and does.

    accidentally PGS hypersonic vehicles are gonnd fly on 50-70km ceiling...

    Space is considered rather higher than 100km... most comments I read suggest 180km.

    But PGS wont be an enormous problem for tank units... more likely S-300VMV4 or later, plus S-500.



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    George1

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  George1 on Thu Dec 03, 2015 11:01 am

    Here says that 3 Buk-M2 were delivered this year

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1606666.html


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    Viktor

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Viktor on Thu Dec 03, 2015 12:08 pm

    George1 wrote:Here says that 3 Buk-M2 were delivered this year

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1606666.html

    3 BUK-M2 REGIMENTS !
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    George1

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  George1 on Thu Dec 03, 2015 12:31 pm

    Viktor wrote:
    George1 wrote:Here says that 3 Buk-M2 were delivered this year

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1606666.html

    3 BUK-M2 REGIMENTS !

    so how many batteries?


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    Viktor

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Viktor on Thu Dec 03, 2015 1:52 pm

    George1 wrote:
    Viktor wrote:
    George1 wrote:Here says that 3 Buk-M2 were delivered this year

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1606666.html

    3 BUK-M2 REGIMENTS !

    so how many batteries?

    Somewhere from 2 till 6 (3 most likely).
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  sepheronx on Thu Dec 03, 2015 2:37 pm

    So why the M2 when M3 is now available?
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  TheArmenian on Thu Dec 03, 2015 2:54 pm

    sepheronx wrote:So why the M2 when M3 is now available?

    M3 will be available next year. Meanwhile the factory needs to produce and this batch is probably the last of the M2s.

    The M2 is a good modern system that will be used to train the future M3 crews. Later on, it can be exported or donated to a friendly country.
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    Militarov

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Militarov on Thu Dec 03, 2015 3:46 pm

    sepheronx wrote:Whats the point working on both systems then if the new Buks are going to have similar performance (overlapping) in terms of the S-300 series?

    Somewhat like tanks in USSR. "Buk" shall be more capable, compliex and more expencive system, S350 shall be cheaper and easier to field in numbers system aimed at direct replacement of early S300 models.
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  sepheronx on Thu Dec 03, 2015 4:54 pm

    Maybe so. I thought Buk systems were supposed to be cheaper.  Buk M3 sounds very promising too.
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    George1

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  George1 on Thu Dec 03, 2015 5:15 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:Whats the point working on both systems then if the new Buks are going to have similar performance (overlapping) in terms of the S-300 series?

    Somewhat like tanks in USSR. "Buk" shall be more capable, compliex and more expencive system, S350 shall be cheaper and easier to field in numbers system aimed at direct replacement of early S300 models.

    Buk systems are for Ground Forces, S350 for Aerospace Forces


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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  TheArmenian on Thu Dec 03, 2015 5:18 pm

    George1 wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:Whats the point working on both systems then if the new Buks are going to have similar performance (overlapping) in terms of the S-300 series?

    Somewhat like tanks in USSR. "Buk" shall be more capable, compliex and more expencive system, S350 shall be cheaper and easier to field in numbers system aimed at direct replacement of early S300 models.

    Buk systems are for Ground Forces, S350 for Aerospace Forces

    Most probably yes.
    But I won't be surprised if it does not end up exactly like that.
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    Militarov

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Militarov on Thu Dec 03, 2015 5:22 pm

    George1 wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:Whats the point working on both systems then if the new Buks are going to have similar performance (overlapping) in terms of the S-300 series?

    Somewhat like tanks in USSR. "Buk" shall be more capable, compliex and more expencive system, S350 shall be cheaper and easier to field in numbers system aimed at direct replacement of early S300 models.

    Buk systems are for Ground Forces, S350 for Aerospace Forces

    That is main idea yeah. Coz Aerospace will already field late S300 models and S400 so their medium range systems S350 will be "workhorse" in medium range and will requie significiant numbers. For ground forces Buk will be best they have.

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