Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Buk SAM system General Thread

    Share
    avatar
    George1

    Posts : 10080
    Points : 10568
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  George1 on Mon May 25, 2015 6:23 pm

    Russian army holds Buk-M2 air defense missile system firing exercises first time this year

    The firing exercises that involved over 300 air defense personnel marked the concluding stage of preparations by the Alkino air defense brigade of the Central Military District

    SAMARA, May 25. /TASS/. The Russian army held firing exercises with Buk-M2 medium-range surface-to-air missile systems for the first time this year, successfully thwarting an imaginary enemy’s cruise missile attack, the press office of Russia’s Central Military District said on Monday.

    "The combat crews of Buk-M2 air defense missile systems have prevented a simulated enemy tactical cruise missile attack on the positions of an integrated combined arms force at the Kapustin Yar firing range in the Astrakhan Region," the press office said.

    "These were the first firing exercises of Russian air defense forces using Buk-M2 missile systems," the press office of the Central Military District said.

    Surface-to air missiles were fired concurrently at two complex targets, the press office said.

    The firing exercises that involved over 300 air defense personnel marked the concluding stage of preparations by the Alkino air defense brigade of the Central Military District, the sole unit in the Russian Ground Forces operating Buk-M2 air defense missile systems.
    avatar
    Book.

    Posts : 702
    Points : 765
    Join date : 2015-05-08
    Location : Oregon, USA

    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Book. on Mon May 25, 2015 11:01 pm

    Rmf wrote:the missiles are in containers not exposed to elements ,so that means more energetic fuel is used ,also trajectory is changed for long range shots and lighter electronics which increased range, new missiles are active and probably added  some of s-300 methods of guidance-  track with missile/ or track with missile and home radar combined. and remember old krug had 2 missiles ready, kub,buk,-3 , now  has 6.
    only negative i can spot is the radar- its not aesa.

    Nebo the Aesa. data link M3?

    it ok
    avatar
    mack8

    Posts : 953
    Points : 1013
    Join date : 2013-08-02

    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  mack8 on Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:24 pm

    The Buk family:
    avatar
    George1

    Posts : 10080
    Points : 10568
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  George1 on Thu Jun 25, 2015 12:32 am

    The range of Buk-M3 reached 70 km
    Russian Aviaton » Wednesday June 24, 2015 18:24 MSK

    The range of Buk-M3 air defense system reached 70 km – 25 km more compared to its predecessor; the system even outmatched long-range S-300 air defense system by a number of parameters, TASS reports with reference to a source close to Russian Ministry of Defense.

    “Results of state testing confirm that the system is in line with the performance specification matching the parameters of S-300 and even outmatched it by some parameters,” the source said.
    Follow us on: Follow ruaviation on Twitter

    “First of all this refers to possibility of hitting a target: 0,9999 for Buk-M3, higher than the parameter of S-300”, - the source noted. He added: “the system’s range was increased by 25 km (compared to its predecessor) and reached 70 km”.

    In April deliveries of the test Buk-M3 systems to the armed forces were started. “Now prior to putting the Buk-M3 into service we have to carry out joint testing in summer at the same firing range. In case the testing is successful, the system will be put into service this autumn,” the source noted. According to him, Buk-M3 will be included in the State Defense Order for 2016 after signing a contract for delivery of production systems by December 2015. “Air Defense Forces of the Army will take delivery of the first Buk-M3 systems in winter 2016,” the source added.

    It was reported earlier that the new representative of Buk Family would be put into service in 2015. It is expected that the new system would continue the product line of Buk air defense systems. The previous version – Buk-M2 is one of the most efficient systems in its class. Its development was completed in 1988, however its mass production was started 15 years later.

    According to the source, the Ministry of Defense has not made a decision on development of the next version – Buk-M4. “So far the enterprise did not receive any performance specifications related to the system from the ministry, - the source said. – So there is no contract and no funding”.


    _________________
    "There's no smoke without fire.", Georgy Zhukov

    avatar
    Viktor

    Posts : 5670
    Points : 6319
    Join date : 2009-08-25
    Age : 36
    Location : Croatia

    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Viktor on Sun Aug 02, 2015 4:36 pm

    Just to sum it all ...

    TELAR and TEL of the BUK-M3




    Looking at it the BUK-M3, Pancir-S1 and Pancir-SM, TOR-M2, S-350, S-400 (with the introduction 9M96), Sosna, Morfei etc etc Russia is adding number of guidance channels and missiles

    considerably.
    avatar
    franco

    Posts : 2299
    Points : 2337
    Join date : 2010-08-18

    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  franco on Sun Aug 02, 2015 5:13 pm

    Viktor wrote:Just to sum it all ...

    TELAR and TEL of the BUK-M3




    Looking at it the BUK-M3, Pancir-S1 and Pancir-SM, TOR-M2, S-350, S-400 (with the introduction 9M96), Sosna, Morfei etc etc Russia is adding number of guidance channels and missiles

    considerably.

    First picture I have seen of the new TEL, good stuff.
    avatar
    medo

    Posts : 3170
    Points : 3260
    Join date : 2010-10-24
    Location : Slovenia

    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  medo on Mon Aug 03, 2015 9:03 am

    franco wrote:
    Viktor wrote:Just to sum it all ...

    TELAR and TEL of the BUK-M3




    Looking at it the BUK-M3, Pancir-S1 and Pancir-SM, TOR-M2, S-350, S-400 (with the introduction 9M96), Sosna, Morfei etc etc Russia is adding number of guidance channels and missiles

    considerably.

    First picture I have seen of the new TEL, good stuff.

    True, redesigned Buk-M2 TELAR to accommodate new missiles in containers.
    avatar
    George1

    Posts : 10080
    Points : 10568
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  George1 on Thu Aug 13, 2015 1:08 am

    Russia develops new antiaircraft system to replace Buk air defense missile complex


    _________________
    "There's no smoke without fire.", Georgy Zhukov

    avatar
    GunshipDemocracy

    Posts : 1502
    Points : 1542
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu Aug 13, 2015 8:34 pm

    George1 wrote:Russia develops new antiaircraft system to replace Buk air defense missile complex


    So Vitiaz is no good anymore? affraid Or Russia has too much money and needs more systems to make logistics life even more funny
    avatar
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 4827
    Points : 4933
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Aug 13, 2015 9:05 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    George1 wrote:Russia develops new antiaircraft system to replace Buk air defense missile complex


    So Vitiaz is no good anymore? affraid  Or Russia has too much money and needs more systems to make logistics life even more funny

    More likely some journalist hack dropped the ball again...
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16172
    Points : 16803
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  GarryB on Fri Aug 14, 2015 11:48 am

    S-350 is an Air Force system... what they might be talking about is the S-350 being adapted to be used in the Army as well as a replacement for the medium range BUK.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    Viktor

    Posts : 5670
    Points : 6319
    Join date : 2009-08-25
    Age : 36
    Location : Croatia

    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Viktor on Sat Aug 15, 2015 10:30 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:So Vitiaz is no good anymore? affraid  Or Russia has too much money and needs more systems to make logistics life even more funny

    They are talking about BUK-M3 which in regard to a completely new missile can be called (and obviously is) a new air defense system.

    Russia’s New Buk-M3 ‘Kill-All’ Missile to Enter Service in 2016

    The Buk-M3 medium-range surface-to-air missile system, a modernized version of the Buk-M2 system, features advanced electronic components and a deadly new missile and could be regarded as a completely new system.

    and the intereting part ...

    The Buk-M3 system boasts a new digital computer, high-speed data exchange system and a telethermal imaging target designator instead of the teleoptical trackers used in previous models.
    The Buk-3M’s target-destruction probability has reached 0.9999 and its maximum destruction range has been increased by 25 kilometers and now stands at 70 kilometers.
    avatar
    GunshipDemocracy

    Posts : 1502
    Points : 1542
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Aug 15, 2015 11:16 am

    Viktor wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:So Vitiaz is no good anymore? affraid  Or Russia has too much money and needs more systems to make logistics life even more funny

    They are talking about BUK-M3 which in regard to a completely new missile can be called (and obviously is) a new air defense system.


    Thank you for links and info but somehow I understood that new system is to be replacing whole Buk family i.e. - Bum - M3 as well. BTW why Buk and S-350 cannot be unified? OK different branches but still both can do similar job or I am wrong?

    JohninMK

    Posts : 4403
    Points : 4460
    Join date : 2015-06-16
    Location : England

    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  JohninMK on Sat Aug 15, 2015 11:27 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Viktor wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:So Vitiaz is no good anymore? affraid  Or Russia has too much money and needs more systems to make logistics life even more funny

    They are talking about BUK-M3 which in regard to a completely new missile can be called (and obviously is) a new air defense system.


    Thank you for links and info but somehow I understood that new system is to be replacing whole Buk family i.e. - Bum - M3 as well. BTW why Buk and S-350 cannot be unified? OK different branches but still both can do similar job or I am wrong?
    From the other end of Europe, it looks as if operationally it could be useful having two different systems since it complicates the task of overcoming them by the enemy. Also two R&D teams competing is good, whilst there may not be much economies of scale in manufacturing and there would not be much saving in training due to them being in two the branches.
    avatar
    Viktor

    Posts : 5670
    Points : 6319
    Join date : 2009-08-25
    Age : 36
    Location : Croatia

    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Viktor on Sat Aug 15, 2015 3:46 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:Thank you for links and info but somehow I understood that new system is to be replacing whole Buk family i.e. - Bum - M3 as well. BTW why Buk and S-350 cannot be unified? OK different branches but still both can do similar job or I am wrong?

    Up to only recently (with the emergance of Baikal-1M command post) it was not possible to unite PVO and A-PVO under a single command chain on the operational level.

    Now situation is rapidly changing and all new command post are able to support whatever SAM given respect to its hierarchy. Still Army pVO will have different set of requirements

    than territorial PVO as those systems needs to be highly mobile, robust and have more capability to resist strong ECM and SEAD/DEAD attacks.

    Because of that we can see unification (single missile for BUK and S-350 and unified command posts) but that can go only that far. Army PVO will always have a different set of demands.

    avatar
    flamming_python

    Posts : 3203
    Points : 3317
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  flamming_python on Sat Aug 15, 2015 7:21 pm

    The Buk-M3 is more capable than the S-350. The S-350 is really an economic medium-range SAM for the Air Force, with similar ranges to the original S-300P system (but more missiles, modern electronics, better radar, etc...).

    The Buk-M3 on the other hand is the best medium-range SAM money can buy. Compared to the S-350 it has:

    • Faster set-up/tear-down times. I wouldn't be surprised if these things can even fire on the move, honestly.
    • Faster reaction times to incoming threats; the Buk TEL vehicles can simultaneously have part of their missiles in vertical mode and the other half pointing towards the probable direction of a threat.
    • Smaller, all-terrain (in its more prevalent tracked form), more nimbler vehicles; can hide more easily and won't be detected as easily on the move.
    • Greater variety of target tracking methods and amount of engagement channels; it's more jam-proof and can target more enemy aircraft/missiles at once (greater defence against swarm attacks). The Buk-M3 tracks by both Radar and Thermal means, with a backup optical system; while the S-350 is Radar-only. The Buk-M3 has 36 engagement channels, the S-350 has 16 - albeit this might just be the figure for the S-350E; the domestic S-350 could perhaps have as many as 40 channels.
    • Greater survivability of the battery as a result of greater autonomy of individual battery vehicles; a Buk battery has a mixture of TELs and TELARs whereas S-350 batteries only have TELs, the Buk TELAR's can potentially operate indepedently from the rest of the battery, albeit considerably worse.
    • A measure of ABM capability; the Buk-M3 is capable of engaging targets at Mach 9 over its whole range and altitude envelope; the S-350 might achieve half or 2/3rds of that at most. This gives the Buk-M3 the ability to engage future hypersonic missiles and many types of SRBMs.


    The S-350, compared to the Buk-M3, only has advantages over it in 2 areas (not counting cost):

    • Greater range of its main missile; the 9M96 series (+120km vs the Buk-M3's 70km).
    • Compatibility with the 9M100 short-range IR-guided missile; 4 of which can fit into a standard container - enabling the S-350 TEL to be armed with considerably more missiles ready to launch than the Buk-M3 TEL can be armed with; at the cost of these extra missiles all being very short-range. They will however allow the S-350 to handle point-defence economically, not wasting the more expensive active-radar missiles, which is something the Buk-M3 can't offer.


    I also don't know where some of you fellas have got the idea from that the S-350 is replacing the Buk. You guys must know something us mere mortals don't.
    Last time I checked, the S-350 is entering service with the AF (or the Aerospace Defence Forces, or whatever it is now). There are some Buks in the AF, along with older S-300Ps - those are the systems the S-350 will replace.
    However the Buks in the Army aren't being replaced by the S-350 as the Army isn't acquiring these systems.
    avatar
    GunshipDemocracy

    Posts : 1502
    Points : 1542
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Aug 16, 2015 10:15 am

    @flaming and @Viktor

    Thanks again so requirements for Army and ASF are so different that one set of missiles cannot do?


    @JohninMK
    Yup this woudl make sense but I am afraid is not the reason why Smile
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16172
    Points : 16803
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  GarryB on Sun Aug 16, 2015 12:30 pm

    Would add that S-350 is likely cheaper... the missiles are smaller and are weight customised, so when targets are detected in close the smaller missile can be used, while targets detected further out can be engaged with the larger missiles.

    the S-350 will probably have more ready to fire missiles on each TEL, but like S-300P it wont have the mobility of the tracked army systems or response times because the airforce systems are optimised as shelterised systems for use on large airfields and other fixed locations, while the army systems are intended to defend forces moving cross country and either firing on the move or from a short halt.

    The Navy will likely introduce the S-350, but will also have the Shtil-1 for export and some domestic gap filler vessels (ie Russian talwars might have Shtil (BUK) or S-350).

    All three branches will be ordering and having in service enormous numbers of SAM missiles so the economies of large production batches applies even if they all have different missiles.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    TheArmenian

    Posts : 1684
    Points : 1845
    Join date : 2011-09-14

    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  TheArmenian on Sun Aug 16, 2015 1:46 pm

    GarryB wrote:Would add that S-350 is likely cheaper... the missiles are smaller and are weight customised, so when targets are detected in close the smaller missile can be used, while targets detected further out can be engaged with the larger missiles.

    the S-350 will probably have more ready to fire missiles on each TEL, but like S-300P it wont have the mobility of the tracked army systems or response times because the airforce systems are optimised as shelterised systems for use on large airfields and other fixed locations, while the army systems are intended to defend forces moving cross country and either firing on the move or from a short halt.

    The Navy will likely introduce the S-350, but will also have the Shtil-1 for export and some domestic gap filler vessels (ie Russian talwars might have Shtil (BUK) or S-350).

    All three branches will be ordering and having in service enormous numbers of SAM missiles so the economies of large production batches applies even if they all have different missiles.

    Garry,
    The S350 is actually more expensive because of the active homing. Buk is command guided.

    Also, S350 is already in use in the navy on the Steregushy class ships while Buk M3 (as Shtil-1) is on the Grigorovich frigate.
    avatar
    flamming_python

    Posts : 3203
    Points : 3317
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  flamming_python on Sun Aug 16, 2015 4:47 pm

    The S-350 is not anything really unique as such, so it makes no sense to talk about it being installed on naval ships.
    What the S-350 is, is basically the 9M96 missile familly, and the 9M100 missile.

    The Naval Redut systems are already compatible with the 9M96 series and several ships are armed with them; and I'd imagine the Reduts are compatible with the 9M100 too - albeit whether the Navy will actually equip its Reduts with 9M100s is a different question.
    avatar
    flamming_python

    Posts : 3203
    Points : 3317
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  flamming_python on Sun Aug 16, 2015 5:00 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:
    Garry,
    The S350 is actually more expensive because of the active homing. Buk is command guided.

    You mean the S-350's missiles (9M96) are more expensive than the Buk's, right?
    Because I'd be surprised if the complex itself is more expensive; by all logic the Buk battery should be the more expensive one.

    As for the missiles though, well whatever the price of the 9M96 variants, the 9M100 short-range IR missiles that the S-350 can be armed with are certainly cheaper than the Buk's missiles, and will be able to deal with certain targets a lot more economically than the Buk can.

    About the 9M96 missiles - well, I'm sure that they are more expensive than the Buk-M2's (9M317) and earlier missiles, which were all semi-active radar homing in nature.

    The Buk-M3 however uses never missiles (9M31M and/or 9M317A); which are active-radar homing much like the 9M96, can engage faster targets and probably have better manuevering/agility. The only thing the 9M96 series has got up on them is range.
    All in all I doubt that the 9M96s are more expensive than the Buk-M3s missiles.
    avatar
    flamming_python

    Posts : 3203
    Points : 3317
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  flamming_python on Sun Aug 16, 2015 5:09 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:@flaming and @Viktor

    Thanks again  so requirements for Army and ASF are so different that one set of missiles cannot do?

    They probably can but why should they?

    They already have 2 different families of systems; the Buk/Kub familly and the S-300 familly; the former going back to the 60s and the later to the 80s.
    Since their inception these families have grown and evolved and been forked off, and as of 2015 both represent a wide range of different systems with different capabilities optimized for different roles.

    The role for Army mobile air defence is best fulfilled by the Buk-M2/Buk-M3
    The role for Army mobile ABM defence is best fulfilled by the S-300VM (S-300V4)
    The role for Air Force mobile medium-range air defence is best fulfilled by the S-350

    Why should they kill off one of these families after all the investment put into them? As GarryB mentions, both have enough orders/demand (inc. export demand) to make them economical. So if they can both be supported, they should.
    Otherwise you'd end up trying to fulfil the long-range defence role with a Buk-type vehicle, while having S-300 type chassis's trying to keep up with armour formations in the field, firing at threats on the move - and it's clear that it just won't work very well.

    You really do need both families; and since you do - then you might as well take advantage of that and pick and match the variants from either of the 2 familiies that you feel are optimal in a particular role.
    avatar
    Viktor

    Posts : 5670
    Points : 6319
    Join date : 2009-08-25
    Age : 36
    Location : Croatia

    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Viktor on Sun Aug 16, 2015 5:14 pm

    BUK-M3 and S-350 will use same type of missiles = 9M96xx

    Austin

    Posts : 6199
    Points : 6605
    Join date : 2010-05-08
    Location : India

    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Austin on Sun Sep 20, 2015 1:41 pm

    "Buk-M3" goes to series

    Preparation for mass production of a new anti-aircraft missile system of medium-range "Buk-M3" has begun in Russia.
    "The design documentation developed by now complex is already in preparation for mass production", - said Tass.

    "Buk-M3" maintains a radar-fire and the architecture of previous versions (M1 / M1-2 / m2), but uses a completely new anti-aircraft missile interceptors 9M317M, which by design is unified with the Marine version 9M317ME complex "Calm-1." The only difference is that the naval version of SAM uses SPMs and land - transport and inclined launchers, each of which can take 6-12 SAM 9M317ME thus only 6 PU SDA can take the amount of ammunition and 72 rockets (in the same complex) .

    These missiles are more perfect, equipped ARGSN, and therefore able to act according to the method of "fire and forget", their much greater flexibility is achieved by using not only the aerodynamic control surfaces, but also the gas-dynamic "zone" control (DPU), which, in all probability, will be able to ensure a rocket hit "hit-to-kil" (kinetic interception of a direct hit), 9M317M missiles can hit targets at a distance of 70 km altitude - around 40,000 meters and at speeds of up to 3000 m / s, the speed of the rocket is very close to that of C 300PMU-2 "Favorit" and is 1550 m / s.

    Complex "Buk-M3" has become "smarter" S-300PS. Considering that the surveillance radar "Dome" is working in the SM-range and can provide target designation homing missiles 9M317M, the number of target channels of the complex increased from 24 to 36 and a set way to handle the most complex list of IOS enemy and protect the ground forces of the merciless blows of tactical aviation enemy attacks missile systems of small and medium-range type ATACMSi others.

    According to fire tests of May 2015 it reported that a promising anti-aircraft missile systems "Buk-M3" is the probability of hitting the aerodynamic purposes of the order of 0.99. The new system will start to be delivered to the military air defense in late November 2015 and will be a system whose parameters are comparable with a new and expensive set of "Hero" in the long term development of the version of "Buk-M4", which is expected to reach the space frontier.
    avatar
    GunshipDemocracy

    Posts : 1502
    Points : 1542
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Sep 20, 2015 8:46 pm

    Austin wrote: "Buk-M3" goes to series


    According to fire tests of May 2015 it reported that a promising anti-aircraft missile systems "Buk-M3" is the probability of hitting the aerodynamic purposes of the order of 0.99. The new system will start to be delivered to the military air defense in late November 2015 and will be a system whose parameters are comparable with a new and expensive set of "Hero" in the long term development of the version of "Buk-M4", which is expected to reach the space frontier.

    Buk-M4 ? woow so Buks M4 can hamper democracy expansion even more than M2? In Syria no Turkish or Israeli democracy introduced so far.

    Just wondering if new system will update Sea based Buk version...

    Sponsored content

    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Mon Jul 24, 2017 10:52 am