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    Buk SAM system General Thread

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    medo
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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  medo on Sat Dec 28, 2013 9:43 pm

    With those caracteristics Buk-M3 will have same capabilities in range and ABM as old S-300V. Actually, this will be better for army than army version of Vityaz, because every launcher have its own engagement radar.

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Viktor on Sun Dec 29, 2013 3:08 am

    Specifications from the NIIP (BUK-M2)

    BUK-M2



    Specification on BUK-M3

    AM "Buk-M3" - further development of the complex and can be adopted in2009. as a complex military army air defense unit. To effectively countering possible threats from the air in the next 12-15 years when it is created using new technologies and developments. It is expected that the "Buk-M3" will be able to destroy air targets, operating at speeds up to 3000 m / s at a range of 2.5 -70 km and altitudes 0,015 -35 km. Antiaircraft battalion will target 36 channels.


    http://www.arms-expo.ru/055057052124057052049.html






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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  zino on Mon Dec 30, 2013 11:38 pm

    TR1 wrote:Very curious about the missiles energy characteristics.

    Indeed I'm too. However, it's me or judging by the videos Buk m-1/2 and Shtil-1 (the second one even more) are already very fast missiles, especially in acceleration?

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  collegeboy16 on Tue Dec 31, 2013 5:56 am

    Will these new build bukm3 meant for 2016 have the new arm/kur/bmr chassis?

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Viktor on Sun Feb 09, 2014 4:06 am

    BUK-M3 or modernized BUK-M2 to M3 standard who knows in the left corner

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Viktor on Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:13 pm

    Is it me or does the BUK TEL in the rear have 12 missiles  Very Happy 



    Black - 12 missile TEL

    Red - 12 missile reloader truck

    Blue - 6 missile TELAR



    LINK

    mack8
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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  mack8 on Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:11 pm

    Gold find Viktor. Very Happy 

    I went "ahhhh, i get it" seeing this...remember the Pantsir-SM shown recently, and it's configuration with 2 vehicle with 12 and 24 missiles respectively for a total of 36? Well, i believe that Buk-M3 will also be made of 2 vehicle teams (within a battery), one vehicle with the radar and 6 SAMs and the other (mysterious so far) vehicle with 12 SAMs, so that is 18 ready to fire missiles on just 2 vehicles (you need FOUR Buk-M2s now for just 16)! Am i off the mark here ? It appears (well, actually it's clear) now the russian concept of SAM operations seems to move towards repelling mass attacks, hence so many missiles in a fire unit on the newest systems (Pantsir-SM, Morfei, now apparently Buk-M3, maybe the latest Tors too, maybe others?)

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Viktor on Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:38 pm

    I dont believe that we will se Pancir-SM batteries consisting of only 2 (TEL and TELAR) vehicles. 6 vehicles per battery as previously is more likely.

    Thing is that Russian answer to modern air threats is rapid increase of:

    - missile guidance channels
    - number of missiles per battery/regiment/brigade
    - missile range in distance and altitude and more complex trajectories
    - modern command post that can perform more calculations
    - etc ....

    When you see it for the same number of vehicles the difference (increase) in number of missiles per Pancir-S1/SM battery is 34% and the same (34%) goes for BUK-M2/3 but
    note that in both cases we are comparing brand new SAM system with the most newest. If we take a look comparison of an older SAM systems
    like we have in S-300PS/T and Vityaz case than we may see numbers like 300% Very Happy

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  flamming_python on Sun Feb 09, 2014 11:44 pm

    mack8 wrote:Gold find Viktor. Very Happy 

    I went "ahhhh, i get it" seeing this...remember the Pantsir-SM shown recently, and it's configuration with 2 vehicle with 12 and 24 missiles respectively for a total of 36? Well, i believe that Buk-M3 will also be made of 2 vehicle teams (within a battery), one vehicle with the radar and 6 SAMs and the other (mysterious so far) vehicle with 12 SAMs, so that is 18 ready to fire missiles on just 2 vehicles (you need FOUR Buk-M2s now for just 16)! Am i off the mark here ? It appears  (well, actually it's clear) now the russian concept of SAM operations seems to move towards repelling mass attacks, hence so many missiles in a fire unit on the newest systems (Pantsir-SM, Morfei, now apparently Buk-M3, maybe the latest Tors too, maybe others?)

    The concentration of more missiles into less vehicles does concern me though.

    And for those 18 ready to fire missiles - there is only one radar unit

    This all makes the BUK battery more vulnerable, not less.

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  mack8 on Sun Feb 09, 2014 11:45 pm

    Yes, i probably wasn't clear enough, didn't meant a battery being made of just two vehicles, but two vehicles (with 6+radar and 12 SAMs respectively) being the smallest "team" within a battery if you know what i mean. If it will be still 6 vehicles (plus the battery radar and associated support vehicles etc.) in a Buk-M3 battery, that would be say 3 TEL and 3 TELAR, totaling 54 ready to fire missiles, compared to just 24 in a Buk-M2 battery! Also, this can be varied too, one can have more TELARs or more TELs (for even more ready to fire missiles) etc.

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  mack8 on Sun Feb 09, 2014 11:53 pm

    The concentration of more missiles into less vehicles does concern me though.

    And for those 18 ready to fire missiles - there is only one radar unit

    This all makes the BUK battery more vulnerable, not less.

    Well, as i said above, and as Viktor explained, there would probably still be 6 vehicles in a battery, but imo in 3 two-vehicle teams (totaling 54 ready to fire missiles-at least), so there will be 3 radars instead of six, a reduction indeed, but i'm sure they thought of it all, they're obviously not planning to have the radars taken out that easily! Besides, with all this networking, i'm sure any TELAR can guide any TEL missiles within the battery etc.

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  TheArmenian on Mon Feb 10, 2014 6:19 am

    Your eyes are not deceiving you Viktor. I also see 12 missiles on a radar-less vehicle.
    The more I think about it, I am suspecting that BUK-M3 may have Active Homing version missiles as well that do not need fire control radar.
    Anyways my vote to you.

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  GarryB on Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:08 am

    Nice find Victor... but then the top photo in your other post ( Post number 80) also seems to show a vehicle with two hydraulic ram arms raising each holding up a pack of 6 launch tubes... it is very fuzzy and hard to see the front of the vehicle.

    In the BUK system there are two TELs... one with a radar on the front and one without, though the one without has a full reload of missiles on board.

    Perhaps there are two BUK-3 vehicles... one with double the missiles but no radar and the other with radar and single load of 6 missiles.


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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Viktor on Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:55 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:Your eyes are not deceiving you Viktor. I also see 12 missiles on a radar-less vehicle.
    The more I think about it, I am suspecting that BUK-M3 may have Active Homing version missiles as well that do not need fire control radar.
    Anyways my vote to you.

    Tnx TheArmenian. I think that new BUK missiles will have active guidance but nevertheless BUK-M2 TELAR already provides info and target calculations for TEL fired missile.



    GarryB wrote:Nice find Victor... but then the top photo in your other post ( Post number 80) also seems to show a vehicle with two hydraulic ram arms raising each holding up a pack of 6 launch tubes... it is very fuzzy and hard to see the front of the vehicle.

    In the BUK system there are two TELs... one with a radar on the front and one without, though the one without has a full reload of missiles on board.

    Perhaps there are two BUK-3 vehicles... one with double the missiles but no radar and the other with radar and single load of 6 missiles.

    Yup, Post No: 34 and 80 show TELAR with 10+ missiles. I dont know what to think about it. Are there two different versions of BUK-MX (one with clearly 6 missiles and one with 10+ missiles

    on TELAR) in development or whats going on. I guess we have to wait a bit longer to find out.


    Also what is interesting is that now reloader truck has its own crane so there is no need for separate truck with crane.  Very Happy 

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  xeno on Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:18 am


    M3

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  collegeboy16 on Sat Mar 15, 2014 4:18 am

    Neat, the more the merrier as they say- I wonder how will A-10s fare when one of these bad boys hit them Twisted Evil .
    flying tank my ass. If this can down a much larger tupolev recon plane anything smaller will be disintegrated.
    Also, I wonder if this can engage F-22 - you never know if you need to avenge the S-300V4, not that it will likely happen

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  TR1 on Sat Mar 15, 2014 5:45 am

    A-10 might be gone within a year or two, so no need to shoot it at all.

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  collegeboy16 on Sat Mar 15, 2014 7:01 am

    right, its gonna be replaced by F-35- stealthy yes, but impoving the Buk so that it can detect F-35 would be orders of magnitude cheaper still.

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  GarryB on Sat Mar 15, 2014 8:12 am

    AFAIK it has optical backup guidance channels, which should allow engagement of things you detect with your thermal imager...


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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Mar 15, 2014 4:58 pm

    TR1 wrote:A-10 might be gone within a year or two, so no need to shoot it at all.

    I'm not so sure about that, if the West is serious about sanctions than the cost of a F-35 may very well skyrocket even more due to Russian titanium being embargoed, unless it's like the situation with the SR-71 were the U.S. bought the titanium from the Soviet Union anyway.

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  TR1 on Sat Mar 15, 2014 8:20 pm

    A-10's early retirement is to cut savings, not due to F-35 replacement. It was due to be axed, but not this soon.
    The argument is the F-16 can do most of its duties.

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Vann7 on Sun Mar 16, 2014 3:14 am

    Viktor wrote:I dont believe that we will se Pancir-SM batteries consisting of only 2 (TEL and TELAR) vehicles. 6 vehicles per battery as previously is more likely.

    Thing is that Russian answer to modern air threats is rapid increase of:

    - missile guidance channels
    - number of missiles per battery/regiment/brigade
    - missile range in distance and altitude and more complex trajectories
    - modern command post that can perform more calculations
    - etc ....

    When you see it for the same number of vehicles the difference (increase) in number of missiles per Pancir-S1/SM battery is 34% and the same (34%) goes for BUK-M2/3 but
    note that in both cases we are comparing brand new SAM system with the most newest. If we take a look comparison of an older SAM systems
    like we have in S-300PS/T and Vityaz case than we may see numbers like 300% Very Happy


    The Buk-M3 are nice , have no doubt the west have nothing as effective/Mobile like them.
    Can't wait Russia to start being armed with many of them.. the more the better.
    The problem however will continue to be .. Offense > defense.
    Anyone that believe that in any conventional attack against Russia (or ally) will be just 10-15 planes and once you defeat them the conflict will be over are not really connected with reality. If anyone dare to Attack Russia conventionally it will be carefully planned. Not only how to attack..what to use ,but also carefully studied any possible retaliation scenarios of Russia fully explored. So if for example NATO arm Ukraine ,Georgia or Saudi Arabia ,it will be very limited the retaliation they can do.. either because they are close to Russia or because they are third world countries with nothing much to lose.

    When you take into account of the hundreds if not thousands of attack drones that NATO have. And that they can sell them to countries hostile to Russia.. ie Ukraine new gov,Poland ,Saudi Arabia or even Georgia. Russia then will need a system of defense that could counter X drones * y numbers of missiles.  So if Ukraine facist government is provided with 50 drones and each carry 5 missiles ,then Russia will need a defense that can counter 250 missiles +50 drones. That is a system of defense that could intercept at the same time at least 300 targets. In terms of Buks ,that could be 60 Buks defenses all active in crimea alone and 60 buks in Sochi against any attack of Georgia .

     This is why Russia rightly is worried about NATO ABM system .. because can be used offensively and in no time Russia could end with a thousand of nuclear missiles facing Moscow and very close to their borders. i think for Russia will be more practical and less expensive if they combine static defenses with mobile ones.. Have a valley near the borders of any hostile country ,with hundreds Buks-M3 of S-300 /S400s missiles underground in mini Silos, ready to use all of them at same time..just in case they receive a massive attack to their naval base Crimea and hundreds more in every very important facility or economical region they have like Sochi stadiums for example. and combine the static defenses with Mobile ones. They will save a ton of money if crew operation ,and the static sams will use the earth as launcher not an expensive tank. Combining static and mobile defenses i think will be much more efficient way to defense their airspace near important facilities or military bases. at the moment i think Russia have static defenses but they are against nuclear attacks ,not conventional ones.

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  TheArmenian on Sun Mar 16, 2014 6:45 am




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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 16, 2014 7:05 am

    The problem is that the effective drones that are not easy to shoot down simply don't exist yet... you can talk about thousands of programmed attack drones and giving them to third parties to use against Russia but honestly a fully armed Su-27 with 10 AAMs and a 30mm cannon could be assured of taking down at least 12 enemy drones on its own due to the fact that they don't defend themselves and can't really manouver.

    Once they have started their attack of course that is it because Russia can not only keep sending up fighters... even an Su-25 armed with R-60MKs would be capable of dealing with 10+ attack drones each... it would truly be a turkey shoot... and once the origin of the threat is determined the Russians can start live testing their Kh-555s and Kh-101s till the problem is dealt with.

    This is why Russia rightly is worried about NATO ABM system .. because can be used offensively and in no time Russia could end with a thousand of nuclear missiles facing Moscow and very close to their borders.

    The solution to thousands of enemy nukes is not thousands of SAMs... that would be ridiculously expensive... the solution to thousands of enemy nukes is thousands of medium range missiles with your own nuke and conventional warheads that can be based deep inside Russian territory yet still reach anywhere in Europe and Asia... ie the end of the INF treaty.


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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Viktor on Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:14 pm

    It would be interesting to see all those existing BUK-MX variants being modernized to BUK-M3 standard together with the new ones that will roll out of factories - huuuge increase in firepower

    and capability.

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