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    Austin
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    Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Austin on Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:47 am

    Since Russian presented the concept of BUK M3 missile 2 years back with inservice date of 2010 , any idea what happened to BUK-M3 ?

    Any specs of the system it was suppose to have new missile with ~ 70 Km range and higher speed etc .

    Any information will be useful

    Thanks

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:23 am

    On of the issues with BUK was that it was an expensive system.
    It replaced the KUB system in Soviet service and its improvements basically relate to experienc in the Middle East where the KUB got a few kills and also forced Israeli pilots to fly lower where they were under more threat from MANPADs and anti aircraft guns like the Shilka.
    The main problem with KUB was when the radar vehicle was taken out with an anti radiation missile the missile vehicles suddenly couldn't operate alone and were sitting duck targets for any light fighter with dumb bombs.
    The solution was a tracking radar on most launch vehicles for BUK and also alternative optical guidance, which as you can imagine made a BUK battery far harder to take out but also made it more expensive to buy and operate.
    There were some exports of BUK but not in the numbers of earlier model missiles.
    I haven't heard anything about a BUK upgrade, and the future missile types for the Russian armed forces don't seem to include new models of the missile.
    Having said that the Naval version might have a future in the vertical launch version.

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Austin on Fri Jul 30, 2010 4:02 pm

    They surely had BUK-M3 in the pipeline for some time now , what I am keen to know is have they inducted it.

    http://en.rian.ru/russia/20070921/80321941.html

    He said the Buk-M3, a modernized version of the Buk-M1 system (NATO reporting name SA-11 Gadfly), will be deployed in 2009. It will feature advanced electronic components and could be regarded as a completely new system.

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Viktor on Fri Jul 30, 2010 4:13 pm

    If Im not mistaken we supposed to see it in military parade this year?

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  GarryB on Sun Aug 01, 2010 8:34 am

    I assume the new system can be identified by the new radar mounted on the nose of the transporter erector launcher (TEL).
    This vehicle:

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Austin on Sun Aug 01, 2010 8:42 am

    Thats the BUK-M2 I bet

    http://warfare.ru/?catid=264&id=307&lang=&linkid=1690&video=true


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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  GarryB on Tue Aug 03, 2010 4:23 am

    The problem is that the Buk system has several upgrades, as mentioned above the original Buk was called SA-11 GADFLY, but an improved missile with better performance was developed (with shorter central wings) that got the western designation SA-17 GRIZZLY.
    This new improvement seems to focus mainly on electronics upgrades and new radars, but I have seen a computer generated video showing the SA-17 system (TELs, radar vehicles, command vehicles etc) all based on wheeled trucks.
    I would expect a family of options like Pantsir, the latters latest model seems to be replacing the Tunguska with a vehicle that looks rather the same as the original Tunguska but with an EO pod thing on top of the front of the turret and new search and tracking radar antenna.

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Austin on Wed Aug 04, 2010 12:32 pm

    Ok the speculation for BUK-M3 should end the official Almaz-Antey 2008 financial report says

    http://www.pvo.su/book/cast/k_pvo_annual2008_en.htm

    Almaz-Antey has also been working to modernize its Buk (SA-11/SA-17) series of its air defense systems. The introduction to the report by the group's director-general, Vladislav Menshikov, mentions R&D work on the project to modernize the Buk-M2E system (for a foreign customer) and to upgrade the Buk-M2 (SA-17) systems to the Buk-M3 level (for Russia's own armed forces). The report also mentions that the company has completed the installation and tuning of the 9S18M1-3 radar for Buk-M3. It has also completed comprehensive preliminary trials of the Buk-M1-2A system equipped with the 9M317A active radar homing seeker . That latter system is now awaiting state trials. The commander of the Army Air Defense, Nikolay Frolov, said in September 2007 that first deliveries of Buk-M3 to the Russian Armed Forces will be made in 2009. In addition, the 2006 annual report of the NPP Dolgoprodnenskiy company (which is part of the Almaz-Antey group) mentioned plans to complete the development of three new versions of missiles for the Buk SAM systems - 9M317A, 9M317M, and 9M317ME - by 2009. It also said the company had begun developing the 9M317MAE missile for export markets.

    So BUK-M3 will have a modernised radar 9S18M1-3 and a 9M317 missile with ARH Very Happy

    Check more details on BUK system http://www.interarms.ru/arhiv/n2_2010/buk_air_defense_missile_system_old_friends_are_best/

    Other interesting statements made in the report with respect to Future of Russian AD

    This has been the first official mention of a proposal to export Antey 2500 (S-300VM) (SA-23) for several years. The document also says that in 2008, the company finished the assembly of the test samples of the modernized S-300V system, as part of the Modern-2 R&D project. The system includes a command station, a multi-channel missile guidance station, a launcher and a radar station . All that suggests that the company continues to work on improving the S-300V system and its updated Antey 2500 version.

    The R&D-related parts of the report worth a separate mention include the completion of several research project under the program of Russia's future aerospace defense strategy, including the Razvitiye-KTVD-25 and the Vozrozhdeniye research projects. Almaz-Antey has also produced schematic designs for the Triumfator-M project (which is apparently an improved version of the S-400) , Morfey (presumably referring to the ultra-short range air defense system Morfey) and Vityaz-PVO (presumably the medium-range air defense system Vityaz) . It has also completed early designs for a proposed new automated system of air force and air defense command.


    Almaz-Antey is also working on short-range air defense systems, including the Tor (SA-15) SAM system. Its Tor-M2 system equipped with the 9M311 missile passed state trials in 2008. Tor-M2 in a combination with the 9M338K missile successfully completed comprehensive preliminary trials in the same year. The company has also been developing the export version of the system, Tor-2ME. Army Air Defense commander Nikolay Frolov said in December 2007 that first deliveries of Tor-M2 to the Russian armed forces were expected in 2009. It was said that the system would be equipped with improved missiles, and its combat performance figures would more than double compared to the previous version .

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  GarryB on Thu Aug 05, 2010 4:44 am

    Now that they are spending money on equipment it means that new designs get funding.... I find it all very exciting...
    Military Parade brings out volumes outlining stuff for export and I have the 2001-2002 volume and the 2004 volume. There is a 2007 volume already out but they are talking about a 2011 volume that will cover all the new stuff that is being developed because of the added funding so I am quite looking forward to seeing that.
    Perhaps T-95s and new Kalashnikovs and even the ADS rifle for the navy special forces.
    Then there is the new 30mm ammo for the new armoured vehicles like the BTR-82A that is supposed to have a time fuse, the new armoured vehicles with 57mm guns that fire missiles as well as 57mm shells, the GPD-30 30mm grenades for the AGS-17 and AGS-30 automatic grenade launchers with a new more powerful HE round that is more aerodynamic with a range increased to 2.2km, and even the BALKAN 40mm automatic grenade launcher with rounds with no shell casings like the Soviet underbarrel 40mm rounds but larger and more powerful with a range of 2.5km.
    So much new stuff to come...

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Robert.V on Thu Aug 05, 2010 9:52 am

    GarryB wrote:On of the issues with BUK was that it was an expensive system.
    It replaced the KUB system in Soviet service and its improvements basically relate to experienc in the Middle East where the KUB got a few kills and also forced Israeli pilots to fly lower where they were under more threat from MANPADs and anti aircraft guns like the Shilka.
    The main problem with KUB was when the radar vehicle was taken out with an anti radiation missile the missile vehicles suddenly couldn't operate alone and were sitting duck targets for any light fighter with dumb bombs.
    The solution was a tracking radar on most launch vehicles for BUK and also alternative optical guidance, which as you can imagine made a BUK battery far harder to take out but also made it more expensive to buy and operate.
    There were some exports of BUK but not in the numbers of earlier model missiles.
    I haven't heard anything about a BUK upgrade, and the future missile types for the Russian armed forces don't seem to include new models of the missile.
    Having said that the Naval version might have a future in the vertical launch version.

    I believe Redut (navalized Vityaz)was choicen as the mid range SAM for upcoming ships.

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  GarryB on Thu Aug 05, 2010 12:12 pm

    The vertical launch Shtil-1 if it also has an active homing seeker should be popular for export I guess.

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Austin on Thu Aug 05, 2010 12:31 pm

    As per a head designer Almaz the Vityaz project is based on south korean KM-SAM project but it will be significantly better then KM-SAM project , Russia is assisting SK in its KM-SAM project and this includes building an interceptor missile and Phased Array Radar.

    The Redut missile is a Navalised S-400 missile which includes a 4 faces Phased Array Radar ( some say its AESA ) and 9M96 family of missile with hit to kill capability.

    It seems right now the S-400 missile is deployed with 9M96E/E1 missile and 48N6DM ( ~ 250 km ) missile essential an upgrade of S-300 PMU2 48N6E2 ( 200 km ) missile.

    The Pièce de résistance of S-400 family of missile 40N6 ( ~ 400 km ) is now in state trials and should be ready for deployment by end of this year , I can bet on my life that this has to be a 2 stage missile.

    An interesting development from the report is that a Triumf-M is under development probably they would finally develop an high altitude ( ~ 185 km ) range interceptor.

    Another interesting story from the report is that they are upgrading the S-300V/Atney-2500 missile which is an interesting piece of system for mobile IRBM defence for field battalion defence. This is a very capable though expensive system which some how got over shadowed by the success of S-300PMU series , seems Venezuela is interested in S-300/Antey-2500 missile.

    I believe they have a very comprehensive and interesting end to end SAM development and upgrades system in place and most of them barring the S-500 should be ready by 2015.

    They probably lag in one area which is AESA radar although they have advanced PESA radar deployed with S-400 , Probably they can co-develop a good AESA with India who has developed LRTR an advanced variant of Green Pine with Israel assistance.

    I am also looking forward towards a dual band ( L & X band ) AESA radar which can be very effective against LO target at the same time provide a good resolution and Firecontrol solution against small targets

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Austin on Thu Aug 05, 2010 1:06 pm

    GarryB wrote:The vertical launch Shtil-1 if it also has an active homing seeker should be popular for export I guess.

    The vertical Shtil-1 though a good missile is limited by its FC radar which cannot guide a missile over 32 km though the missile has a range of ~ 45 km plus has limited channels

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  GarryB on Thu Aug 05, 2010 1:20 pm

    The channel limit should be solved by the active terminal homing.

    Another plus is that it is related to the SA-N-7 so if they already have that in service then they could look at replacing existing arm launchers with vertical launch cells and a minor upgrade of electronics.

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Austin on Thu Aug 05, 2010 7:54 pm

    GarryB wrote:The channel limit should be solved by the active terminal homing.

    Another plus is that it is related to the SA-N-7 so if they already have that in service then they could look at replacing existing arm launchers with vertical launch cells and a minor upgrade of electronics.

    Indeed its a valid point for existing FC channel that can for 6 radar on either side can guide 12 missile at 6 target as on Talwar ( the number of radar can increase of decrease depending on need ) but cannot fire more due to channel limitation a move to ARH though expensive per missile could be a worthy upgrade.

    Probably an ARH can also increase the Pk for each missile hence doing away with the need for 2 missing per target for high probability of kill.

    Found more information on BUK-M3 http://www.arms-expo.ru/site.xp/055057052124057052049.html

    ЗРК "Бук-М3" - дальнейшее развитие комплекса и может быть принят на вооружение в 2009 г. как единый комплекс войсковой ПВО армейского звена. Для эффективного парирования вероятных угроз с воздуха в ближайшие 12-15 лет при его создании используются новые технологии и разработки. Ожидается, что "Бук-М3" будет способен поражать воздушные цели, действующие со скоростью до 3000 м/с на дальностях 2,5-70 км и высотах 0,015-35 км. Зенитный дивизион будет 36 целевых каналов.

    Translated


    SAM Buk-M3 "- further development of the complex and can be commissioned in 2009 as a single set of army air defense army staff. In order to effectively ward off possible threats from the air in the next 12-15 years when it is created using new technologies and developments. It is expected that the Buk-M3 will be able to destroy air targets operating at speeds up to 3000 m / sec at distances 2,5-70 km and altitudes 0,015-35 km. The anti-aircraft division would be 36 targeted channels.

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Austin on Thu Aug 05, 2010 7:58 pm

    So a target corresponding to a speed of 3000 m/sec for BUK-M3 would mean a BM corresponding to a range of 1000 - 1500 km Smile

    Here is something on Antey-2500 http://milparade.udm.ru/25/030.htm

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  GarryB on Fri Aug 06, 2010 3:39 am

    Another thing, if it does have an active radar seeker (there is plenty of room for one, these are big missiles) then they could also adapt the guidance to track via missile technology which should overcome problems with radar horizon if the target drops below the horizon level during the engagement.
    Much like an AMRAAM or R-77 the missile can be fired to a projected intercept point in space and then use its own seeker to find and engage the target.
    This means that even if you only track the target initially the missile still has a chance of an engagement and the launching vessel is emitting a lot less energy during the engagement too. (Though normally it should periodically check the target to ensure it hasn't changed its course or speed etc, and if it has it can calculate a new intercept box and send course corrections to the missile on its way so that it can make those course corrections.)

    The improvement in performance is welcome too, the SA-11 had range specs of 3km up to 35km and altitude limits of 15m up to 22km and no capability against ballistic missiles, while the SA-17 has ranges of 3km out to 42km, and altitudes of 15m to 25km and was designed specifically to engage the LANCE II system. Target speed has also changed from 830m/s to 1,200m/s respectively, and target g load from 10 to 12g respectively.

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  SerbNationalist on Thu Sep 09, 2010 12:17 am

    Does someone know the price of Buk-M3 battery (6 launchers with guidance radars, 1 acquisition radar and support vehicles)?

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  IronsightSniper on Tue Sep 28, 2010 10:51 am

    More or better, I am curious to it's ECCW capabilities.

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  GarryB on Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:16 am

    Its new radars seem to be phased arrays so these are much harder to deal with for ARMs of all sorts with the added factor that these missiles can probably deal with ARMs and their launch platform too.

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Stealthflanker on Sun Oct 03, 2010 6:48 pm

    GarryB wrote:Its new radars seem to be phased arrays so these are much harder to deal with for ARMs of all sorts with the added factor that these missiles can probably deal with ARMs and their launch platform too.

    well i will agree for the ARM.. for the launch platform however hmm may likely employ their ARM far beyond the lethal range of the missile

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  GarryB on Mon Oct 04, 2010 2:22 am

    well i will agree for the ARM.. for the launch platform however hmm may likely employ their ARM far beyond the lethal range of the missile

    I am sure they will want to launch their ARMs from a safe distance, but the mobile nature of new variants of Russian SAMs suggests that this might not be possible.

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    Buk/Buk-M2 General thread:

    Post  TR1 on Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:38 am

    Lots of photos of the first Buk-M2 unit in Russia.

    https://picasaweb.google.com/117990383296131038585/BUKM2

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Austin on Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:52 am

    Nice , I am keen to see BUK-3 now its been a long time we heard about it.

    Though I am a bit worried when AW&ST says that Israel new generation Jammer then Jam these SAM ...... I just wonder how capable BUK-2 and its radar will operate under intense jamming.

    BUK-2ME is also in competition for Indian Army medium range SAM requirement

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    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:16 pm

    What else would Israel say?

    And for every system there are countermeasures... the question is will they work?

    An over confident Israel saw SA-6 SAMs deployed and assumed they were just some more missiles like SA-2 and SA-3 that they thought they could deal with.

    In real combat they found they had no effective counter to continuous wave illumination SAMs even though they had plenty of experience of using such systems (like HAWK).

    A clever enemy will always find ways to reduce or eliminate the effectiveness of an enemies weapons, but that goes both ways.

    Modern Russian SAMs are not designed to be operated without a challenge, and ECCM is part of the design... including passive optical guidance modes.

    Nice pics BTW.

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