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    NATO - Russia relations:

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    Walther von Oldenburg
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    Re: NATO - Russia relations:

    Post  Walther von Oldenburg on Mon Oct 12, 2015 8:12 pm

    Better learn some lessions.

    In WW1 USA destroyed the German Empire and the Russian Empire (by backing Bolsheviks) and earned an immense amount of money on exports while all other countries were lossers. During WW2 it provoked Japanese attack, defeated Japan and the Third Reich and lost the least out of all major players. Then after WW2 it dethroned the British Empire as the world's most powerful country and took control of the world's financial system without even having to fire a single shot.

    Shouldn't we (Germans, Europeans) learn from them and imitate them? There is a lot to learn in the art of geopolitics and Americans are masters of it.


    Last edited by Walther von Oldenburg on Mon Oct 12, 2015 8:13 pm; edited 1 time in total

    Werewolf
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    Re: NATO - Russia relations:

    Post  Werewolf on Mon Oct 12, 2015 8:13 pm

    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:... Of course it isn't. IF Jihadi Islamism was not a viable political ideology in the Middle East, nobody would be supporting it in the first place. There are no US-backed Protestant militias kiling Catholics (or vice versa) in Germany, are there? Shocked Laughing

    NATO itself is an alliance that has outgrown it's purpose. I have stated numerous times on this forum that a pan-European military alliance without USA would be best for Europe.

    Because Germany is a NATO bitch already. Why would US finance terrorists waving any kind of religion banner to overthrow a government that is already entirely the bitch of US? you make no sense, but that is common with islamophobes who blame terrorists on islam not on the actual warlords who create,arm, pay and send them to specified countries. You never see those "islamists" fighting against Jews in Israel, who are genociding palestinians who are muslims themselfs. They only go where ever US wants them not touched Saudi shit of Arabia, they do not touch, Qatar, Bahrain, Kuwait or any other US controlled ME bitch country.

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    Re: NATO - Russia relations:

    Post  max steel on Mon Oct 12, 2015 9:11 pm

    and Bolsheviks were kicked out of Russia.

    Walther von Oldenburg
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    Re: NATO - Russia relations:

    Post  Walther von Oldenburg on Mon Oct 12, 2015 10:42 pm

    Werewolf wrote:
    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:... Of course it isn't. IF Jihadi Islamism was not a viable political ideology in the Middle East, nobody would be supporting it in the first place. There are no US-backed Protestant militias kiling Catholics (or vice versa) in Germany, are there? Shocked Laughing

    NATO itself is an alliance that has outgrown it's purpose. I have stated numerous times on this forum that a pan-European military alliance without USA would be best for Europe.

    Because Germany is a NATO bitch already. Why would US finance terrorists waving any kind of religion banner to overthrow a government that is already entirely the bitch of US? you make no sense, but that is common with islamophobes who blame terrorists on islam not on the actual warlords who create,arm, pay and send them to specified countries. You never see those "islamists" fighting against Jews in Israel, who are genociding palestinians who are muslims themselfs. They only go where ever US wants them not touched Saudi shit of Arabia, they do not touch, Qatar, Bahrain, Kuwait or any other US controlled ME bitch country.
    I have no doubt that most of Saudi clerics hold anti-American sympathies - but what can they do? They are on the payroll of Saudi government and if any of them starts making anti-American statements, his funding will be slashed or worse, he will be assassinated by Saudi secret services. So the natural course of action is to simply sit quiet and throw fatwas as the politicaal situation dictates.

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    Re: NATO - Russia relations:

    Post  flamming_python on Tue Oct 13, 2015 1:20 am

    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:Better learn some lessions.

    In WW1 USA destroyed the German Empire and the Russian Empire (by backing Bolsheviks) and earned an immense amount of money on exports while all other countries were lossers. During WW2 it provoked Japanese attack, defeated Japan and the Third Reich and lost the least out of all major players. Then after WW2 it dethroned the British Empire as the world's most powerful country and took control of the world's financial system without even having to fire a single shot.

    Shouldn't we (Germans, Europeans) learn from them and imitate them? There is a lot to learn in the art of geopolitics and Americans are masters of it.

    They were masters of it.

    These days America is led by a bunch of spoilt, petulant, hubrid, short-sighted, amateur little imperialists who between them all can't work out how what foreign policy & diplomacy is for or how to use it.

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    Re: NATO - Russia relations:

    Post  Rodinazombie on Wed Oct 14, 2015 12:11 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:Better learn some lessions.

    In WW1 USA destroyed the German Empire and the Russian Empire (by backing Bolsheviks) and earned an immense amount of money on exports while all other countries were lossers. During WW2 it provoked Japanese attack, defeated Japan and the Third Reich and lost the least out of all major players. Then after WW2 it dethroned the British Empire as the world's most powerful country and took control of the world's financial system without even having to fire a single shot.

    Shouldn't we (Germans, Europeans) learn from them and imitate them? There is a lot to learn in the art of geopolitics and Americans are masters of it.

    They were masters of it.

    These days America is led by a bunch of spoilt, petulant, hubrid, short-sighted, amateur little imperialists who between them all can't work out how what foreign policy & diplomacy is for or how to use it.

    Couldnt have said it better myself.


    It may be obvious to say it here, but if you want to look for someone to model yourself on, you dont need to look further than putin. In the art of diplomacy he is second to none, despite his ruthless reputation. He has made an art out of being nice to his enemies whilst they are screaming obscenities about him. The chinese too, they are happy to just sit back and let the money flow, they have profited from peace and not sticking their nose in everyone elses business. Though i imagine they will look to involve themselves more in the coming years.





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    Re: NATO - Russia relations:

    Post  max steel on Wed Oct 28, 2015 8:21 pm

    NATO is considering an expansion of its military presence on member-country borders with Russia


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    Re: NATO - Russia relations:

    Post  max steel on Sun Nov 22, 2015 9:54 pm

    RAF Lossiemouth fighter jets scrambled over Russian bomber Tu-160



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    Re: NATO - Russia relations:

    Post  mrtravisgood on Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:41 pm

    Rodinazombie wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:
    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:Better learn some lessions.

    In WW1 USA destroyed the German Empire and the Russian Empire (by backing Bolsheviks) and earned an immense amount of money on exports while all other countries were lossers. During WW2 it provoked Japanese attack, defeated Japan and the Third Reich and lost the least out of all major players. Then after WW2 it dethroned the British Empire as the world's most powerful country and took control of the world's financial system without even having to fire a single shot.

    Shouldn't we (Germans, Europeans) learn from them and imitate them? There is a lot to learn in the art of geopolitics and Americans are masters of it.

    They were masters of it.

    These days America is led by a bunch of spoilt, petulant, hubrid, short-sighted, amateur little imperialists who between them all can't work out how what foreign policy & diplomacy is for or how to use it.

    Couldnt have said it better myself.


    It may be obvious to say it here, but if you want to look for someone to model yourself on, you dont need to look further than putin. In the art of diplomacy he is second to none, despite his ruthless reputation. He has made an art out of being nice to his enemies whilst they are screaming obscenities about him. The chinese too, they are happy to just sit back and let the money flow, they have profited from peace and not sticking their nose in everyone elses business. Though i imagine they will look to involve themselves more in the coming years.





    I agree.  I could not have said that better myself.  China will be doing more in the not only the coming years but in the coming months.  Remember those man made islands that they say belong to them.  Well each day that passes the ruffle their feathers more and more.  So it will only be time that will dictate.  But if NO ONE does anything about Turkey shooting down a Russian plan and then the rescue choppers, than I believe that China will see that as an opportunity as well as North Korea.


    Last edited by mrtravisgood on Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:43 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Mispelled some words. :()

    max steel
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    Re: NATO - Russia relations:

    Post  max steel on Fri Nov 27, 2015 9:34 pm

    Russia Prepared for Conventional Arms Control Consultations With NATO No


    nemrod
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    War In Europe: Why The Army Is Worried

    Post  nemrod on Mon Dec 14, 2015 3:45 pm

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/lorenthompson/2015/12/11/war-in-europe-why-the-army-is-worried/




    War In Europe: Why The Army Is Worried

    Ever since Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014 and seized control of Crimea, Pentagon planners have been trying to figure out how they could cope with further land grabs by Moscow.  Their greatest concern is that Russia will move on the three small Baltic states of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania — the only former provinces of the Soviet Union that have joined the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) and that other alliance members are therefore obligated to defend.  Internal Pentagon estimates suggest Russia’s military could occupy the Baltic states in 2-3 days — well before NATO could organize a coherent response.

    More generally, the alliance’s entire eastern flank is vulnerable to invasion given the proximity of Russian forces and the absence of natural barriers to a quick advance (see map).  In the aftermath of the Ukraine invasion, Western military planners no longer think they can predict how Russian leader Vladimir Putin might react to perceived provocations or opportunities.  So the possibility of war in Europe is back on the table as a priority concern, and that means land warfare in which the U.S. Army would have to carry most of the burden.

    After talking to a number of senior military officials over the past year, the picture I get is that the U.S. Army isn’t postured to stop a quick Russian thrust westward.  In certain circumstances, Putin could defeat NATO forces and upset the fragile European political order put in place after the collapse of the Soviet Union.  That outcome would depend on the conditions in which such a campaign unfolds, and there are dozens of factors potentially influencing the course of events.  But here are the issues that come up most frequently in discussions with the Army.

    Russia would have huge geographical advantages in a European war due to its proximity, depth, and ability to control key chokepoints. (Retrieved from Wikimedia)
    Russia would have huge geographical advantages in a European war due to its proximity, depth, and ability to control key chokepoints. (Retrieved from Wikimedia)


    Preparation for high-end threats has been neglected.  Fifteen years of fighting counter-insurgency warfare in Southwest Asia has left the Army well equipped to take down irregular forces such as ISIS, but much less ready to fight an enemy armed with tanks, artillery and attack aircraft.  The number of brigade combat teams in the active-duty force has fallen from 45 to 32, and only a quarter of those are the kind of heavy armored formations that could repulse a Russian mechanized advance.  The active-duty force has also lost a quarter of its helicopters, with only modest investments being made to upgrade existing fleets or field new capabilities.  To make matters worse, the number of Army units stationed in Europe has been reduced to only two light brigades — a small fraction of what would be needed to deal with a major Russian advance.

    Russia would enjoy huge geographical advantages in a war.  Russia historically has been a land power, and the vast preponderance of its military capabilities are deployed in Europe.  It routinely conducts military exercises near the eastern borders of Estonia, Ukraine, and other nearby states it might invade.  U.S. military forces are located far from where the military action might start, and would have great difficulty responding rapidly to a Russian invasion that began with no warning.  Given the scale of conventional forces in western Russia that could quickly be brought into action, Moscow might be able to present the West with a fait accompli in places like Ukraine — especially given the internal wrangling that would precede any NATO response.  Moscow would probably time its moves to take advantage of the fact that most U.S. ground forces now rotate in and out of the area rather than being permanently based there.

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    Air support might not be available.  The Army trains to fight on the assumption that it will have continuous support from the U.S. Air Force and other allied aircraft.  However, Russian air defenses in Eastern Europe are so imposing that Army planners aren’t sure Western aircraft will be able to operate in support of ground forces.  Russian surface-to-air missiles such as the mobile SA-21 (over 150 launchers currently deployed) can reach into the air space of friendly countries to shoot down any aircraft that aren’t stealthy or supported by sophisticated jamming techniques.  For instance, most of Polish air space is potentially within range of Russian air defenses.  U.S. military planners don’t think the Russians could establish air dominance, but they could achieve sporadic air control sufficient to exclude all Western tactical air forces except for very stealthy fifth-generation fighters, leaving U.S. ground forces exposed.

    Russian conventional weapons are increasingly capable.  Air defense is not the only mission area where NATO forces might be at a disadvantage.  As the Russian military has become increasingly professionalized, it has introduced an array of advanced conventional weapons while America and its allies have under-invested in new technology.  Army officials say the Russians might outgun U.S. forces locally in long-range fires, electronic warfare, cyber skills and the ability to practice mixed regular/irregular tactics known as “hybrid warfare.”  Russian antitank weapons are also said to pose a serious threat to U.S. armored vehicles, in part because the Army has failed to move ahead with plans to equip its existing fleet with active-protection systems that deflect the force of incoming rounds.  With the exception of the Stryker SYK +0.00% wheeled troop carrier, most of the Army’s recent efforts to field more agile, survivable vehicles have faltered.

    Continued from page 1

    Moscow might be willing to use nuclear weapons.  The Russians enjoy massive local superiority in tactical nuclear weapons, and Moscow’s military doctrine gives such weapons more prominence in warfighting plans than Western thinking does.  President Putin said earlier this year that he considered putting Russian nuclear forces on alert during the Ukraine crisis in 2014 to deter Western intervention.  Moscow’s military appears to view first use of nuclear weapons as a legitimate response to conventional threats endangering the Russian homeland, so NATO military planners have to at least consider the possibility that what starts out as a war over Russian land-grabs in the Baltic region or Ukraine escalates into a nuclear exchange as the campaign progresses.  Once that threshold is breached, there is no way of knowing where it might lead, and the U.S. Army has no clear idea how to respond if and when.

    Surveying the decay in NATO capabilities for dealing with a Russian onslaught, my Lexington Institute colleague Daniel Goure recently argued, “The U.S. Army needs to redeploy multiple armored combat brigades, additional Patriot air defense battalions, attack helicopter units and advanced sensors to Europe.”  In other words, it needs to reverse the drawdown of U.S. ground forces in Europe that began when the Cold War ended and is currently enshrined in President Obama’s 2012 Strategic Planning Guidance.  I think Dr. Goure is right, because having a robust force permanently stationed in Europe would both deter aggression and give the U.S. a quick response if deterrence failed.  For all the money NATO spends on its collective defense, it doesn’t appear ready to cope with a Russian attack westward, and nobody knows what Putin might do if he thinks Washington is distracted elsewhere.



    Last edited by nemrod on Tue Dec 15, 2015 12:18 pm; edited 1 time in total

    GarryB
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    Re: NATO - Russia relations:

    Post  GarryB on Tue Dec 15, 2015 2:04 am

    max steel wrote:Russia Prepared for Conventional Arms Control Consultations With NATO   No


    Hahaha... don't worry... NATO will be less interested than Russia in conventional arms limitations in europe.

    The CFE agreement collapsed because Russia had troops in a few conflict zones including Abkhazia and South Ossetia.

    Now that the US has moved troops into eastern europe there is no way they will want to talk about removing those forces.

    I can understand Russias issues... the Soviet Union withdrew its forces from eastern Europe and various former soviet states and NATO has moved right in to replace them... no wonder Russia feels threatened.

    What Russia needs to do is be preemptive and add a capability that scares the shit out of NATO that they can then offer to dismantle in return for the US leaving europe... perhaps it is time for the INF treaty to fold... pretty much having a mobile S-500 and S-400 and S-350 as well as S-300V4 and BUK-3 means Russian forces would be largely protected from intermediate range ballistic weapons so why deny themselves such a capability?

    Having thousands of IRBMs with ranges up to 5,000km would shift the balance in favour of Russia without too much economic outlay... especially with a mix of cheap subsonic cruise missiles are added into the mix.


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    Re: NATO - Russia relations:

    Post  Firebird on Thu Dec 17, 2015 7:12 pm

    I wonder what the yanks were up to earlier in the week in Moscow.
    Pretty high profile smarm offensive. I'm surprised Nuland wasn't battered walking down the street.

    The Yanks are doing the same with Cuba. And did the same with dickhead Yeltsin. Which meant Russian assets plundered on the cheap and NATO moving to within spitting distance of some of Russia's major cities.

    I kind of feel that a "pretend climbdown" actually means more evil is being stored up, being prepared.

    Obummer was actually comparing Russia to ISIS etc in recent months.
    To me, once the US was killing Russian people in the Donbass and Odessa etc (because it was the US coup that allowed it all) then a huge red line was crossed.

    I also wonder whether NATO knew of risks to a Russian airliner before the Sharm attack.

    Then there was ofcourse the attempt to frame Russia for the Ukrainian Air Malaysia plane disaster.

    I really don't see how any real partnership can happen until massive compensation and a new offer is made to Russia.

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    Re: NATO - Russia relations:

    Post  higurashihougi on Fri Dec 18, 2015 6:56 am

    Well, yes, of course, why not.

    https://www.rt.com/politics/326294-cancer-tumor-of-europe-/

    ‘Cancer of Europe’ – Russian Duma speaker calls for NATO dissolution

    Europe now really needs to think seriously, should NATO really continue to exist ? And at the moment does NATO bring anything good to Europe ?

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    Re: NATO - Russia relations:

    Post  max steel on Sun Jan 17, 2016 11:50 am

    OLD NEWS

    Russian Bombers Again Circle Guam


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    Re: NATO - Russia relations:

    Post  max steel on Wed Feb 17, 2016 5:48 pm

    The Problem With NATO's Nukes

    Time to Rid Europe of Its Cold War Legacy.


    US President Barack Obama came into office promising to work toward a world free of nuclear weapons. Over the past several years, the United States has made uneven progress toward that goal. The nuclear agreement with Iran, if strictly implemented, will preclude an Iranian bomb and mitigate the risk of nuclear proliferation in the Middle East for at least the next 10–15 years. But North Korea continues to develop and test its nuclear capabilities, India and Pakistan show no signs of winding down their nuclear competition, and Russia and China have forged ahead with the modernization of their nuclear arsenals, with little prospect of either country agreeing to negotiate nuclear reductions any time soon. And in Europe, the risk of nuclear use, although low, may be increasing.

    It would certainly not be low-hanging fruit, but ridding Europe of its Cold War nuclear legacy would be a good place for the next president to achieve early progress in making the world a safer place. U.S. tactical nuclear weapons on the continent and NATO’s plans to modernize and increase the capabilities of its nuclear systems may be increasing the risk of nuclear use and undermining NATO’s conventional defense capabilities. The United States needs to take bold action to rethink NATO’s nuclear deterrent in order to reduce the dangers and strengthen the alliance. Such moves could include a freeze on tactical nuclear modernization, a phased withdrawal of all U.S. nuclear weapons from Europe, and measures to adapt and strengthen NATO’s arrangements for nuclear cooperation and consultations to reassure allies.

    The Russian nuclear threat to Europe is not new. Moscow has leaned on nuclear weapons ever since the collapse of the Soviet Union took down the Red Army and Russia’s defense industrial base. Nonetheless, until very recently, the risk of nuclear war in Europe—indeed the risk of any armed conflict between NATO and Russia—has been virtually nonexistent. Since Russia’s aggression against Ukraine in the spring of 2014, however, what is rightly perceived as increased nuclear-muscle flexing has rattled European nerves. Russian officials have issued nuclear threats against NATO countries; at the same time, Moscow has increased air patrols of nuclear-capable planes, conducted simulated military exercises with nuclear weapons, and continued to modernize its tactical nuclear weapons opposite NATO.

    There are signs, too, that Russia is officially changing its war-fighting doctrine in Europe to include the possibility of early use of limited nuclear strikes in order to bring conflicts to a halt on terms more favorable to Russia. This is a dangerous development—not so much because Russia is developing new capabilities, but because the deterioration in U.S.-Russian relations has increased the risk of an accident, mistake, or miscalculation that could trigger a conflict.
    The United States' and NATO's tactical nuclear plans are not helping matters. The United States intends to spend billions of dollars over the next decade to upgrade its tactical nuclear bombs stored in Europe—and the United States’ European allies will need to allocate hundreds of millions of euros to improve the infrastructure supporting these weapons and associated dual-capable aircraft. The more modern U.S. nuclear warheads that will replace the estimated 160–200 U.S. nuclear bombs currently in Europe will be smaller and more accurate—and Russia is reportedly making similar improvements to its tactical arsenal. According to U.S. General James Cartwright, former commander of U.S. Strategic Forces and Vice-Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff (JCS), these weapons will make limited nuclear strikes more conceivable.

    It is unclear, moreover, whether NATO’s modernized tactical nuclear weapons would actually add to the alliance’s deterrence and defense posture. Over the past two decades, the military rationale for maintaining U.S. nuclear weapons in Europe has all but disappeared. Over five years ago, when Cartwright was the vice-chairman of the JCS, he declared that U.S. tactical nukes in Europe were redundant because they fulfilled no military function that was not already being met by U.S. strategic and conventional forces. Colin Powell, when he was chairman of the JCS in the early 1990s, supported elimination of tactical nuclear weapons, and in 2008, U.S. European Command ended its support for maintaining nuclear weapons in Europe. Few today within U.S. and allied militaries would question these judgments.

    The more vexing issue for the alliance is whether these weapons have any political and psychological value if they do not possess any military utility. NATO experts including former Pentagon officials Franklin Miller and Kori Schake continue to maintain that the weapons based in Europe are essential for reassuring allies of the United States’ security commitment. They also argue that basing them in several NATO countries is a valuable demonstration of the alliance’s principle of “equal risks, equal responsibilities.” It is important to preserve this principle. But reassurance and burden sharing might be better served if NATO spent more of its precious defense resources buying weapons and capabilities—such as improved C4ISR, strategic airlift, and heavy equipment for defense in Central and Eastern Europe and the Baltic states—that are relevant to the real threats the alliance faces today and will confront in the future. It isn't clear why allies would be reassured by investments in new nuclear warheads and infrastructure that offer no real increase in usable military capabilities and no added deterrence beyond what British, French, and U.S. strategic arms already provide. Nor is it clear why these allies would be reassured by more modern NATO tactical nuclear weapons that could actually lower the threshold of nuclear use on allied territory.
    The alliance, after much internal debate, gave an important nod toward revising its nuclear posture earlier in the decade. In NATO’s 2010 Strategic Concept and its 2012 Deterrence and Defense Posture Review, the alliance left the doors open to further nuclear reductions and to other means of providing reassurance and preserving burden sharing that do not require basing U.S. nuclear weapons on NATO soil, such as more rotational deployments of U.S. strategic bombers to NATO bases. Very little has been done in the past few years, however, to move in these directions. In view of Europe’s deteriorating security environment, the United States needs to restore momentum to these efforts or at least prevent backsliding.

    The United States and Russia can and should begin a new high-level dialogue on deterrence and security issues writ large, including on the impact of planned developments in strategic and tactical nuclear weapons, conventional forces, cyberweapons, and missile defenses. And nothing should be kept off the agenda, as U.S. officials have occasionally tried to do in the past with missile defenses and so-called prompt-strike conventional weapons. The alliance should also take two more immediate and meaningful steps: impose a freeze on its plans to deploy upgraded B61 bombs in Europe and announce its commitment to undertake a phased withdrawal of all U.S. nuclear weapons from the continent.


    There will be resistance to these measures. Some defense and arms control experts will argue that NATO should only change its nuclear posture if Russia takes reciprocal action through a new treaty. For example, Miller, Schake, and former NATO Secretary General and British Defense Secretary George Robertson have argued for either parity between NATO and Russia (where Moscow agrees to reduce its tactical nuclear weapons to NATO’s level) or equal percentage reductions in a legally binding treaty. This is a recipe, however, for forcing NATO to continue spending money on anachronistic nuclear weapons with little gain in deterrence, while siphoning funds from much-needed conventional defense improvements. Moreover, pressing Russia to negotiate reductions in—and especially the elimination of—its roughly 2,000 tactical nuclear weapons is a fool’s errand. Moscow sees these weapons as a counter to what it perceives as NATO’s conventional superiority and China’s growing military capabilities, as well as a symbol of its great power status. Further, the total lack of trust in Russia’s relations with the West makes it very unlikely that Moscow would agree to legally binding transparency and other confidence-building measures for its tactical nuclear weapons programs anytime soon.
    There will also be pushback within NATO. Some members of the alliance—Belgium, the Netherlands, Norway, Luxembourg, and Germany—would conceivably support nuclear risk reduction measures; however, others such as the Baltic countries, Poland, and other Eastern European members would oppose any changes in the alliance’s nuclear plans and posture. The key to bringing recalcitrant members on board is to demonstrate with concrete actions, such as the Pentagon’s new budget proposal to spend $3.4 billion in the fiscal year 2017 to bolster U.S. and NATO military capabilities in Central and Eastern European countries and the Baltic states, that greater and more sustained investments in conventional force improvements will make them safer; that allied strategic nuclear forces are and will remain the backbone of NATO’s strategic deterrent for as long as nuclear weapons exist; that NATO’s security and nuclear deterrent are not tied to the presence of nuclear bombs on alliance soil; and that both can be maintained through broader and more robust NATO involvement in nuclear cooperation, planning, and consulting arrangements.

    To borrow from the Cold War lexicon of the great nuclear strategist Herman Kahn, Russia is re-conceptualizing the ladder of escalation from conventional to nuclear conflict. NATO’s agreement to abandon plans for tactical nuclear weapons’ modernization and to eventually remove its nuclear bombs from Europe could, over time and as part of a broader strategy to re-engage Moscow on all aspects of Euro-Atlantic security, influence Russia to climb back down that ladder. And it could immediately strengthen the alliance’s defense and deterrent posture against the full range of current and emerging threats. To remain a nuclear alliance, NATO does not need to spend billions of dollars to upgrade nuclear weapons and infrastructure that it does not need and that risk lowering the nuclear threshold in Europe. The Strategic Concept and the Deterrence and Defense Posture Review left the doors open to a safer, stronger, and more affordable NATO deterrent posture. It is important for alliance leaders to pry these doors apart a little more—or at least keep them from being shut—when they meet in July at the Warsaw NATO summit.

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    Re: NATO - Russia relations:

    Post  GarryB on Thu Feb 18, 2016 10:45 am

    Since Russia’s aggression against Ukraine in the spring of 2014, however, what is rightly perceived as increased nuclear-muscle flexing has rattled European nerves.

    Hahahahaha... fuck off.

    Russia had nothing to do with the overthrow of the democratically elected government of the Ukraine, and they also had nothing to do with the armed coup or the murder of Ukrainian citizens that followed.

    That was the EU and US... they have made their bed and now they can enjoy the fruits of their labour... just the same as they can enjoy the refugee recriminations of their murderous adventures in Libya and Syria and Iraq.

    Screw em.


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    Re: NATO - Russia relations:

    Post  George1 on Fri Apr 22, 2016 2:38 am

    NATO expansion east was in focus of Russia-NATO Council meeting — diplomat

    The US has announced that it is increasing fourfold expenses on maintenance of forces in Europe

    MOSCOW, April 21. /TASS/. NATO’s building up military presence in Eastern Europe was one of the focal points at a session of the Russia-NATO Council, Russia’s NATO Ambassador Alexander Grushko told Rossiya 24 television on Thursday.

    "I will say without going deep into details that of course it was one of the main issues, as the military theme is the closest to the competences of the Russia-NATO Council and the aims it was set up for," he said, noting that the discussion had been very substantial.

    According to Grushko, the Alliance’s countries put an accent on demand for instrument of control over arms in conditions of increased military activity, urging Russia to join a dialog on modernization of these instruments, as well as spoke about the Treaty on Open Skies.

    "We said absolutely clearly that NATO is trying to ‘put the cart before the horse’. The prime cause of the worsening of the military situation is not in the lack of instruments of arms control - there is a lot of them and Russia in this sense is an intensive user of these instruments," Grushko said.

    "The problem is that from the mid-2000s, NATO started getting closer to our borders in military and military-infrastructural terms, exploring territories of new members, and after the Ukrainian crisis, or taking advantage of the Ukrainian crisis to be more exact, it moved to the policy of deterrence, which is expressed in concrete military construction measures," he went on.

    Grushko listed among them rotation of troops, setting up of headquarters and their strengthening, creation of permanent depots of American hardware on the border with Russia, deployment of an additional continent in Europe.

    "The US has announced that it is increasing fourfold expenses on maintenance of American forces in Europe," he said, noting that the level of USA presence would be brought to that of division. "All this is accompanied by repeated exercises training defense against aggression of the so-called foreign enemy. The military presence is being built up in the Black and Baltic seas," Grushko went on.

    The first in the past two years session of the Council was held in Brussels on April 20.

    "NATO and Russia have profound and persistent disagreements. Today’s meeting did not change that," North Atlantic Alliance’s Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg said after Russia-NATO Council session.

    "But we will keep channels of communication open. Especially when tensions are high, political dialogue is necessary to discuss our differences and to reduce the risk of military incidents," Stoltenberg concluded.

    Grushko, for his part, said "Russia is not against a new meeting of the Russia-NATO Council, but only when it has a real agenda".


    More:
    http://tass.ru/en/politics/871732


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    Experts warn weapons gap is shrinking between US, Russia and China

    Post  nemrod on Fri May 06, 2016 1:31 pm


    The diplomatic water downed words "gap is shrinking" should be understood as the end of US technological superiority acknowledged by US. Good outset! For us in this forum, it was an evidence for a long time ago, but for american it is not obvious!


    http://thehill.com/policy/defense/278262-experts-warn-weapons-gap-is-shrinking-between-us-and-competitors-russia-and



    Experts warn weapons gap is shrinking between US, Russia and China

    By Kristina Wong - 04/30/16 02:03 PM EDT

    Competitors like Russia and China are closing the advanced weapons gap with the United States, aiming to push the U.S. out of areas on their front doorstep.

    Experts say they're improving their ability to target U.S. aircraft and ships, pushing the U.S. military farther away from potential conflict zones and constraining its ability to use force in regions such as the Baltic Sea and the South China Sea.

    "Since the end of the Cold War, the U.S. military has never really had to fight an enemy that had its own arsenal of precision-guided weapons," said Mark Gunzinger, senior fellow at the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments.

    "It was able to use air bases and other bases located fairly close to the borders of an enemy because there wasn't that much of an air and missile threat to those bases,” he said. “That’s changing.”

    Experts say Russia and China are improving their ballistic and cruise missile technologies and hoping to create what they call “anti-access area-denial bubbles” where they can threaten U.S. air and ground operations.

    Russia is in particular presenting a challenge to the U.S. in the Baltics region, where it has recently been harassing U.S. aircraft and ships.

    ”You’ve seen some advanced air-to-air technologies that the Chinese and Russians are developing, not just in stealth technology, but in terms of the advanced aerodynamics, advanced air-to-air radars, advanced air-to-air weapons, advanced air-to-ground weapons," said Chris Harmer, senior naval analyst at the Institute for the Study of War.

    Experts say Russia and China are also making inroads into the U.S.’ undersea dominance.

    "Chinese nuclear attack submarines are just in absolute overdrive, how quick they're building and how fast the technology is developing,” Harmer said. "And we've seen a significant increase in Russian naval activity, Russian long-range naval activity, Russian ships conducting port calls to Bandar Abbas in Iran.”

    Iran, too, is making progress, experts say.

    “They still lack a precision in their offensive weapons, and they're still trying to obtain and develop more effective air missile defenses, but they're making progress and their weapons are getting more accurate and their capabilities are increasing in their range, as well as in their numbers,” Harmer said. “The Iranian navy is getting a lot bigger a lot quicker than anybody expected.”

    To keep ahead of those advances, the Pentagon is focusing on developing high-end weapons systems that can avoid detection even in close quarters, like the B-21 long-range stealth bomber.

    It is also seeking to develop the high-end capabilities of allies like the United Kingdom in order to extend its reach.

    Deputy Defense Secretary Bob Work and British Defense Procurement Minister Philip Dunne earlier this month toured U.S. military bases where the two nations are working closely together on advanced weapons systems.

    That includes the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, a fifth-generation stealth fighter; the P-8 Poseidon, a maritime patrol aircraft designed to detect foreign submarines and ships; and the Trident Class II D5 missile, which deploy from U.S. and Royal Navy ballistic missile submarines.

    "I wouldn't say that these are specific towards any countries, but they're against high-end capabilities," Work said. "Countries like Iran are buying the most advanced air defense systems in the world … Advanced air defense systems are proliferating around the world. Submarine technology is proliferating around the world. They're becoming quieter, hard to find."

    Work said the U.S. and the U.K.’s 25-year defense plan released last year would allow the two nations to be "interoperable in these high-end fights."

    "If we ever projected power around the globe and the U.K. government said, 'We're with you,' we'd be interoperable from the top to the bottom," he said.

    Some experts say the U.S. is not spending enough on weapons research and development.

    "At the same time, the Russians and the Chinese — the Chinese more so than the Russians — are spending an awful lot of money on research and development,” Harmer said.

    And cyber theft, particularly by the Chinese, is a problem, they add.

    “Today, we're capable of losing in 10 seconds via cybercrime 10 years worth of research and development,” Harmer said. "And especially for the Chinese that's been a big help to them in closing the gap.”

    But they agree the main solution is fixing a wasteful and burdensome weapons buying system that can take decades to field a platform.

    "The main issue for us is overcoming a very sclerotic system of acquisition," said defense analyst Norman Friedman. "It's not fast enough, and it's extremely poor judgment about the costs of programs, how much they should run, lack of ruthlessness ... an ability for someone at the top for many years to stand back and say, this is stupid."

    Experts warn that in the meantime, competitors can make up in numbers what they can't make up in technology.

    "As the Russians used to say during the Cold War, quantity has a quality all of its own," Harmer said. "Because the Chinese can put so much quantity into the water in a relatively small space and small time, they can more than overwhelm our technological advantage.”

    Experts say they don't see any fixes to the shrinking technological gap anytime soon.

    Defense Secretary Ash Carter, House Armed Services Committee Chairman Mac Thornberry (R-Texas) and Senate Armed Services Committee Chairman John McCain (R-Ariz.) have introduced reforms to fix the acquisition system, but experts say it’s too early to tell if their reforms are working.

    “I find it worrisome that we can't seem to fix the procurement system but many very hard working people have tried,” Friedman said. “I mourn for what I see.”

    Harmer added: “The Department of Defense would like to move faster. Of course, change is hard. Change is slow.”



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    Re: NATO - Russia relations:

    Post  max steel on Tue May 24, 2016 6:37 am

    US spy plane flew ‘dangerously close’ to passenger jets near Russian border

    WHO IS UNPROFESSIONAL NOW ? angry

    A US defense attache has been summoned by Russia's Defense Ministry after an incident over the Sea of Japan near Russia's eastern borders, where an American spy plane was detected flying too close to civilian aircraft.

    Russia's air defense detected an RC-135 spy plane belonging to US Air Force on Sunday, the ministry said in its statement. The plane was on an air reconnaissance mission with all of its transponders having been shut off, it added.

    The US crew had not provided any information regarding its flight to air traffic controllers in the region, despite it flying at the same altitude as scheduled civil aviation flights.

    “As the result of the unprofessional actions of the American plane crew, the hazard of a collision with civil aviation planes was created," Russia's Defense Ministry said, adding that it asked the US official to take measures to prevent such incidents from happening near Russia's borders in the future.

    At least two passenger jets belonging to major European airlines were endangered by the then-unknown aircraft over the neutral waters of the Sea of Japan on Sunday, Interfax reported.

    The "unknown aircraft" was flying at the altitude of some 11,000 meters (36,000 feet) and did not respond to air traffic control, the agency said citing its source. Russian air controllers had to immediately change the flight path of a KLM Boeing-777, which was in the same region en route from Japan to Holland.

    Pilots from another airplane, operated by Swiss airlines, heading to Switzerland from Japan, even reported "visual contact with a large four-engine aircraft, which was in direct proximity to their plane" and sent no recognition signals, the source said. The flying altitude for the Swiss jet also had to be changed by the air traffic control.

    Following the episodes over the Baltic Sea, Russia's Defense Ministry released an official statement, saying US surveillance planes should either not approach the Russian borders or at least keep aerial transponders switched on. "Turn on transponders for automatic identification by our radars," the ministry said at the time.

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    Re: NATO - Russia relations:

    Post  JohninMK on Thu May 26, 2016 1:31 am

    The EU not NATO but here seemed to be the best place to put this.

    Lavrov certainly has a way with words. Mind you, not sure he is head of the MoD as well as his normal role.

    Russia has somewhat overestimated the independence of the European Union in the world arena. This was stated by the Minister of Foreign Affairs of Russia, Sergey Lavrov, during an interview with the Hungarian newspaper Magyar Nemzet.

    “Judging by everything, we have somewhat overestimated the independent role of Europeans in the world arena. It seems that the Ukrainian crisis has highlighted the high degree of dependence of the EU on the political and economic influence of Washington,” Lavrov said.

    The head of the Russian Defense Ministry also noted that Moscow “would like to deal with a strong European Union, which would build relationships with partners in the international arena on the basis putting their own interests first and foremost, and not by putting solidarity with extra-regional players at the forefront.

    The Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Russian Federation, Sergey Lavrov, is currently (May 25th) on a visit in Hungary. Earlier on Wednesday, he met the prime minister of the country, Viktor Orban, in Budapest and then with his the Hungarian foreign minister Peter Siarto. The politicians discussed bilateral relations, the EU’s anti-Russian sanctions, as well as cooperation between Russia and NATO.


    http://www.fort-russ.com/2016/05/lavrov-to-hungary-russia-has.html

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    Re: NATO - Russia relations:

    Post  sepheronx on Tue May 31, 2016 4:29 am

    Russian NATO envoy says Black Sea will never be "NATO’s lake" More: http://tass.ru/en/politics/879042

    Really good article and pretty sober of how Russian authorities actually feel (well, just Grushko, but he cannot just say things out of the blue of course).

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    Re: NATO - Russia relations:

    Post  JohninMK on Fri Jun 10, 2016 12:21 pm

    A Russian naval expedition to the Gulf of Mexico coming up perhaps? Laughing

    According to the head of the Russian Foreign Ministry's European Cooperation Department the entry of US vessels into the Black Sea will trigger response measures from Russia.

    MOSCOW (Sputnik) – The entry of US vessels into the Black Sea will trigger response measures from Russia, the head of the Russian Foreign Ministry's European Cooperation Department said Friday.

    "From time to time, US vessels enter the Black Sea. Obviously, we do not appreciate it and, undoubtedly, this will lead to retaliatory measures," Andrei Kelin told RIA Novosti.

    Earlier this week, the US Nimitz-class aircraft carrier Harry S. Truman entered the Mediterranean Sea. The move was described by Kelin as a "show of power" ahead of the NATO summit in Warsaw, Poland.


    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/world/20160610/1041111937/russia-us-black-sea.html#ixzz4BAd4mbOt

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    Re: NATO - Russia relations:

    Post  KiloGolf on Fri Jun 10, 2016 12:33 pm

    JohninMK wrote:A Russian naval expedition to the Gulf of Mexico coming up perhaps?  Laughing

    According to the head of the Russian Foreign Ministry's European Cooperation Department the entry of US vessels into the Black Sea will trigger response measures from Russia.

    MOSCOW (Sputnik) – The entry of US vessels into the Black Sea will trigger response measures from Russia, the head of the Russian Foreign Ministry's European Cooperation Department said Friday.

    "From time to time, US vessels enter the Black Sea. Obviously, we do not appreciate it and, undoubtedly, this will lead to retaliatory measures," Andrei Kelin told RIA Novosti.

    Earlier this week, the US Nimitz-class aircraft carrier Harry S. Truman entered the Mediterranean Sea. The move was described by Kelin as a "show of power" ahead of the NATO summit in Warsaw, Poland.


    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/world/20160610/1041111937/russia-us-black-sea.html#ixzz4BAd4mbOt

    Even in that case, the two sides wouldn't be on par with each other. The US has NATO (and non-NATO) allies in the Black Sea and the straits are under a NATO member's control. In addition the US vessels operate in the Black Sea under full cover of SM-3 based in Develesu, Romania (new blocks covers everything), various airbases filled with friendly jets and enjoys submarine cover in that sea. Furthermore USN doesn't accompany their ships with permanent group of tug boats.

    On the other hand a Russian destroyer in the Gulf of Mexico will have no NATO-like allies around, no air cover, no SM-3 equivalents based in Cuba and not many friendly jets or subs around. It will be a big fat target, far away from home.

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    Re: NATO - Russia relations:

    Post  JohninMK on Fri Jun 10, 2016 12:58 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    JohninMK wrote:A Russian naval expedition to the Gulf of Mexico coming up perhaps?  Laughing

    According to the head of the Russian Foreign Ministry's European Cooperation Department the entry of US vessels into the Black Sea will trigger response measures from Russia.

    MOSCOW (Sputnik) – The entry of US vessels into the Black Sea will trigger response measures from Russia, the head of the Russian Foreign Ministry's European Cooperation Department said Friday.

    "From time to time, US vessels enter the Black Sea. Obviously, we do not appreciate it and, undoubtedly, this will lead to retaliatory measures," Andrei Kelin told RIA Novosti.

    Earlier this week, the US Nimitz-class aircraft carrier Harry S. Truman entered the Mediterranean Sea. The move was described by Kelin as a "show of power" ahead of the NATO summit in Warsaw, Poland.


    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/world/20160610/1041111937/russia-us-black-sea.html#ixzz4BAd4mbOt

    Even in that case, the two sides wouldn't be on par with each other. The US has NATO (and non-NATO) allies in the Black Sea and the straits are under a NATO member's control. In addition the US vessels operate in the Black Sea under full cover of SM-3 based in Develesu, Romania (new blocks covers everything), various airbases filled with friendly jets and enjoys submarine cover in that sea. Furthermore USN doesn't accompany their ships with permanent group of tug boats.

    On the other hand a Russian destroyer in the Gulf of Mexico will have no NATO-like allies around, no air cover, no SM-3 equivalents based in Cuba and not many friendly jets or subs around. It will be a big fat target, far away from home.
    Think you are missing the point. What you say is correct from a military standpoint but a Russian ship or two in the Gulf is hardly a target unless you want WW3 to start. Incidently, were WW3 in the offing, the Black Sea is probably the last place you would expect to see a US warship as it would be certain death.

    My suggestion is much more a public poke at the US, a naval version of the Bear trips down the Californian coast.

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