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    Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

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    GarryB

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    Well Lada is going in mass production

    Post  GarryB on Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:55 am

    Since your debunking rumors, there are those who say that the Amur/Lada with VLS cruise missiles will have no room for the AIP propulsion,

    Hahahaha... funny. the AIP section is like the VLS section... look at any submarine design and point out the empty space with enough room to add vertical launch tubes for a dozen or more cruise missiles, or an entire propulsion system?

    The AIP section or VLS section can be added to the existing design... the original sub is designed with separate compartments and adding new compartments is kinda straight forward.

    and a follow up question, will the AIP engine replace or will it assist the Diesel engine sorta like a hybrid?

    An AIP section would technically be the third propulsion system in the sub... a diesel electric generally has diesel and electric motors, which run on diesel and batteries respectively. This new Russian AIP uses diesel fuel to generate electricity so in many ways it is like a battery in that it is quiet and has no moving parts. BTW western AIPs use hydrogen and basically do the same thing... generate electricity like a battery.

    I wouldn't say the best in the world, but definitely one of the best in the world, the Type214 still wins in depth, at least double that of the Lada.

    The main problem there is that Russian torpedos can hit either sub no matter how deep they go, and being hit at 400m will crush a sub like a beer can... it is rather more important to not have to surface for almost a month than it is to be able to dive deeper... there is no benefit to diving deeper any more when you can't outdive the enemies torpedoes or depth charges or mines etc.

    In many coastal areas the water is often very shallow anyway.

    although i wonder if these breakthroughs will be passed to the kilo design?

    The export model of the Kilo will likely be offered with the export model of the AIP.

    Its not good news to pursue a failed project, better cut your losses and begin with a new design.

    The fact that they are pursuing it suggests the rumours of its failure are largely exaggerated.

    The reason why russia is continuing with Kilo design is because Lada design has not come up to expectation and is decade behind service due to technical and management issue coupled with financial problems for the 90's

    Kilo is a proven design in production... just like the Russian Navy is buying Talwars as well as new ships... both are effective, though the new generation systems are a generation ahead... it is like the PAK FA and Su-35S... they are making both... and not because the PAK FA is rubbish either.

    I think the main problem is that people in the west see Lada and they think old Italian crap... the Lada class SSK are potentially very powerful subs with electronics and sonar that is several levels above those fitted to other SSKs and comparable to those fitted to SSNs... the addition of AIPs and VLS just makes them even more competitive... the main difference between the Lada-M and an Akula will likely be top speed. Endurance will be largely dependent on the amount of food stored on board rather than other limitations.


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    Austin

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    First anaerobic system for Lada non-nuclear submarines due 2016 - Navy’s Commander

    Post  Austin on Sat Jun 01, 2013 11:47 am

    First anaerobic system for Lada non-nuclear submarines due 2016 - Navy’s Commander

    "In 2016, a full-scale model of anaerobic power plant, designed at "Rubin", will be ready, and the following year, 2017, this system may be installed at the first Lada submarine project 677,” he said. “It would be a different, modernised project of submarines of the class with several different, more technological parameters.”

    "These anaerobic systems, as they are completed at "Rubin," will be used for future promising non-nuclear submarines of Lada class, which, surely, will serve also at the Northern Fleet," the admiral said.

    He continued saying the use at non-nuclear submarines of anaerobic power plants would add to their level of secrecy, would reduce further the noise, increase endurance, which "undoubtedly will have a positive impact on effectiveness of their combat missions."
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    KLEWANG

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  KLEWANG on Tue Jun 04, 2013 4:00 am

    just want to ask, Question Question
    if anyone has ever heard that killo class submarine ever purchased by the Indonesian navy ....????
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    Viktor

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Viktor on Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:34 am

    After the Navy Day first of its class will be transferred to RuAN.

    Head submarine project "Harmony" will go to the Northern Fleet after the Navy Day

    Hachimoto

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Hachimoto on Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:56 pm

    Viktor wrote:After the Navy Day first of its class will be transferred to RuAN.

    Head submarine project "Harmony" will go to the Northern Fleet after the Navy Day

    No word on the AIP system, it is supposed to be ready in 2014 i might guess all issues surrounding this new dev were solved but no official word about it
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    Viktor

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Viktor on Fri Jul 12, 2013 2:01 pm

    Hachimoto wrote:
    Viktor wrote:After the Navy Day first of its class will be transferred to RuAN.

    Head submarine project "Harmony" will go to the Northern Fleet after the Navy Day

    No word on the AIP system, it is supposed to be ready in 2014 i might guess all issues surrounding this new dev were solved but no official word about it

    Two more Lada class subs are in the production. Both will be finished by 2016 and the second one will have AIP.

    Hopefully few more will start their life in Russian shipyards by 2016.

    Hachimoto

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Hachimoto on Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:22 pm

    Mindstorm wrote:
    Ship-Shape Submarines

    Russia is ready for Project 75(I) competition
    By Vladimir ‘Vovick’ Karnozov
    FORCE September 2012


    Interesting info ,thanks Austin. always precious (my vote to you).



    “We already have a full scale specimen of such a battery. I believe that in less than two years we can get our Ion-Lithium battery installed on a submarine and be ready for mass production.”


    This is a crucial point, glad to hear that something is moving for the good lately in this department.



    so are they going to drop AIP in future?
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    GarryB

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:20 am

    No. They will not drop their AIP.

    It sounds like their AIP is rather more practical than western systems that require hydrogen to be piped into the sub at the dock.

    The Russian AIP extracts the required chemicals to make the fuel cell produce electricity directly from diesel which ports are already able to supply.

    In terms of infrastructure this means Subs with the Russian AIP system can use any dock in the world right now without any modification or infrastructure expenditure... which is enormously important.


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    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

    Hachimoto

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Hachimoto on Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:59 pm

    Yes indeed not like the U-boat which require a lot of infra.

    I got this question because i saw the news about he Ion-Lithium battery... maybe this would be for the russian navy version Lada and AIP for Amur cheers 
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    GarryB

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jul 20, 2013 10:12 am

    I got this question because i saw the news about he Ion-Lithium battery... maybe this would be for the russian navy version Lada and AIP for Amur

    At the end of the day better batteries that allow longer periods underwater plus AIP which also allows more time submerged seems to me to be a win win situation... use both technologies.

    All boats with AIP modules have at least three propulsion options... diesel, electric(using batteries), and electric (using AIP).

    The latter two are silent, but are obviously limited by battery capacity in the first case and hydrogen capacity in the second on a U boat.

    I really don't know how this new Russian AIP actually works... what is left over after it processes the diesel, but it seems to be very powerful in terms of the energy it can generate... the question remains how efficient it is at using diesel for generating electricity in comparison with diesel engines.


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    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

    Austin

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Austin on Sun Oct 06, 2013 10:17 am

    Appears to be Amur/Brahmos proposal after adding VLS Cells a slight steamlined bump is visible behind the sail ( via trishul-trident )

    Fitment of Brahmos onboard Submarine

    VLS brahmos

    Austin

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Austin on Thu Feb 06, 2014 7:19 am

    Interview with Chief Designer  CKB "Rubin" Igor Molchanov.



    Has many interesting information on Lada Submariner


    http://ria.ru/interview/20140206/993240643.html
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    George1

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  George1 on Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:15 am

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    George1

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  George1 on Thu Aug 21, 2014 9:29 pm


    Austin

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Austin on Mon Aug 25, 2014 3:46 am

    Experimental VNEU for submarines




    Research work on the creation of experimental samples airindependent power plant (VNEU) and the new lithium-ion battery for non-nuclear submarines, the fifth generation will be completed in 2014.


    This was reported by Itar-Tass chief designer CDB "Rubin" Igor Molchanov.


    "We are now at the stage of research work. In terms VNEU and lithium-ion batteries is an advanced R & D by the end of 2014, which culminate in the establishment is not quite the prototype, but the most approximate to it. This is a purely technical details, "- said the source.


    He explained that the actual prototype installation and batteries will be created upon completion of development work, which will begin in 2015 Meanwhile, in July, CEO of CCB "Rubin" Igor Villeneuve said that by the end of 2014 will create a prototype VNEU spring deputy director of the company Andrey Baranov said that to complete the creation of the prototype is planned in 2016, the Russian Navy expects to receive the first of NNS with airindependent installation already in 2016-2017. (We are talking about boats 4th generation - Project 677).


    According Molchanov, a new lithium-ion battery is fundamentally different from the lead. "It is completely different. She has higher capacity and security, it does not require expensive service systems. It's a completely different principle of operation, there is no electrolyte ", - explained.


    He said that these batteries will allow submarines of Project 677 (code "Lada") under water almost 1.5 times longer, even without the use of VNEU. However, under the new battery will have to redo the entire electro-energy system submarines previous projects 877 (code "Halibut") and 636.3 (code "Varshavyanka"). In size the new battery is the same, but the electrician has to be different.


    "The battery and VNEU should be used in conjunction, then it will be the expected effect. Will they be first installed on the "Lada" or on some one other project - decision in the main command of the Russian Navy. Airindependent installation and battery, we are developing as part of the work on the boat fifth generation "- said Molchanov.
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    Mike E

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Mike E on Mon Aug 25, 2014 4:05 am

    Do you know what VNEU stands for?

    Austin

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Austin on Mon Aug 25, 2014 4:17 am

    Mike E wrote:Do you know what VNEU stands for?

    AIP system a new type which uses Diesel and can generate Hydrogen on board is being developed.
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    Mike E

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    Experimental VNEU for submarines

    Post  Mike E on Mon Aug 25, 2014 4:19 am

    Ok, thanks!
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    redgiacomo

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  redgiacomo on Fri Aug 29, 2014 9:46 am

    [/quote]

    Yeah, and three have already been launched! They can really produce those things like nobodies business...

    Hopefully they can continue that with the Lada![/quote]


    Yes i hope too! But the Lada is the MIG-35 of the Russian Navy. Even better the MIG-35 is more successful.
    I fear that Lada will be bypassed. And that would be a really big pity.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  GarryB on Fri Aug 29, 2014 10:32 am

    Lada is state of the art with excellent sensors and improved propulsion and should be able to spend more than two weeks submerged and operational... an enormous step forward for SSKs.... it will be the quietest sub around.

    they have also spent a small fortune on it... now that they have worked out solutions it would be incredibly stupid to get rid of it now...


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    redgiacomo

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  redgiacomo on Fri Aug 29, 2014 10:51 am

    I didn't know that! So is it sure they are going to restart the production?
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    Mike E

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Mike E on Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:34 pm

    Yeah, construction has refused for both the later Lada class subs. - Petersburg is in the Northern Fleet, with most issues fixed.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  GarryB on Sun Aug 31, 2014 11:21 am

    I didn't know that! So is it sure they are going to restart the production?

    You can run as many computer simulations as you like but at the end of the day the only way to test a design is to build it and put it in the water.

    they tested the first Lada and found some problems, which they worked on and fixed... the solutions will be applied to the two Lada-M boats that were started after the first one was tested.

    the new boats will have new batteries and new AIP and might even be given a different name... but they will be completed.

    Any alternative does not exist and would need to start from a clean sheet of paper and even then there are not guarantees it will work as expected either, but will not be in service for 12-15 years...



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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
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    Mike E

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Mike E on Sun Aug 31, 2014 9:37 pm

    Now that they've fixed the problems with the Lada, it would really be nice to see them working on an extended (length) version. Something around the size of the Japanese Soryu-class (~3,000t surfaced, ~4,200t submerged). That extra hull length could be used to add extra missile "tubes" for the Kalibr, which would be an important asset to combating carrier convoys etc. It would also put some more stress on the US navy... Another thing to note is that it wouldn't be that much more expensive, think of it like extending a plane's fuselage. - Adding another "section" or two, of course, planes aren't even remotely close to subs, but you get the idea. Any thoughts?
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    Mike E

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Mike E on Tue Sep 02, 2014 1:10 am

    Nobody has any thoughts on my idea? Rolling Eyes


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