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    Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

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    Mindstorm

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Mindstorm on Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:08 pm


    Ship-Shape Submarines

    Russia is ready for Project 75(I) competition
    By Vladimir ‘Vovick’ Karnozov
    FORCE September 2012


    Interesting info ,thanks Austin. always precious (my vote to you).



    “We already have a full scale specimen of such a battery. I believe that in less than two years we can get our Ion-Lithium battery installed on a submarine and be ready for mass production.”


    This is a crucial point, glad to hear that something is moving for the good lately in this department.


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    Cyberspec

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    New AIP design by Rubin bureau

    Post  Cyberspec on Sat Oct 27, 2012 12:56 am

    Something interesting mentioned at "Ëuronavale 2012". Below is a translated fragment with info on a new AIP design for conventional class subs...

    Meanwhile, the idea air-independent is very attractive. It involves the use of non-rechargeable batteries and some technologies to produce electricity without the use of the diesel engines. For example, currently work is under in ways to generate power through the synthesis of hydrogen and oxygen in special reactors. This is a complex process, for which we must still carry significant reserves of hydrogen and pure oxygen.

    "Rubin" has chosen a different path .

    It developed a completely unique technology for producing hydrogen directly from diesel via the so-called *reformer / reforming device*(?). This method does not require special hydrogen storage compartment but uses existing infrastructure and fuel reserves. The process of developing the current is completely silent, which increases the subs stealth characteristics. Also increased is the length of stay in the water.

    Generating capacity of our plant - 400 kW. Best foreign analogues produce up to 180 kW. The viability of the new power plant with air-independent layout was confirmed in tests.

    Source: http://www.rg.ru/2012/10/25/salon-site.html
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    GarryB

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  GarryB on Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:34 am

    This design... if it works as advertised is a stroke of genius.

    AIPs are ideal because they produce no noise, but the requirement for hydrogen and also pure oxygen to ensure proper functioning means lots of expense of infrastructure at ports. Handling hydrogen is difficult as it can seep through many materials and is of course flammable so needs protection from heat and sparks.

    Having an AIP that works silently and can draw everything it needs to work from standard diesel is ideal because every port is equipped to handle diesel.

    Equally if the figures are right about the power it generates then that is even better!


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    George1

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  George1 on Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:45 pm

    Deepwater Trials of SSK St. Petersburg Postponed for 2013

    Being initially scheduled in late 2012, final deepwater tests of the lead Lada-class (Project 677) non-nuclear submarine St. Petersburg are postponed for 2013, director general of Rubin Design Bureau Igor Vilnit told ARMS-TASS at the 23-rd international exhibition Euronaval-2012.

    "Although the sub is ready for transfer to the north scheduled in the current year, it was decided to hold the final phase of trials in 2013", he said.

    So far, all new equipment of the submarine including new engines, radioelectronics, and other onboard systems have proved design characteristics at the trials, pointed out the Rubin's director.

    in this context, Russian Navy command decided to complete construction of other two Project 677 submarines Kronshtadt and Sevastopol laid down in 2005 and 2006 at Admiralteyskie Verfi shipyard, and is about to continue building of such subs with possible further upgrades, emphasized Vilnit.

    "We're absolutely confident upon Project 677 which is a new step in Russian submarine building", he added.

    Lada class is the fourth generation of diesel-electric submarines in the postwar period; it is an upgrade of Project 636 Varshavyanka. Lada-class submarines are designed for independent antisubmarine and antisurface warfare in limited zones; attacking of land-based targets by cruise missiles; antisubmarine defense in littoral areas, narrow and strait zones; warfare at sea lanes, etc.

    Project 677 subs are much more silent than their predecessors thanks to single-hull design and hi-tech anti-sonar coating. Submarines of this class are equipped with new sonar system Irtysh with advanced antenna system and flexible long-distance trailed antenna, have longer endurance (45 days) and increased underwater operating range (650 miles at 3 knots).

    http://rusnavy.com/news/navy/index.php?ELEMENT_ID=16288
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    Cyberspec

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Cyberspec on Tue Oct 30, 2012 12:40 am

    I found out a bit more about this AIP system on the Russian net. It's aimed for installation on the 3rd Lada class sub called "Sevastopol". Rubin is financing the project by themselves and are currently haggling with the MOD for the price. They are pushing for the Sevastopol to be included in the 2013 budget after which they promise a delivery date in 2015.

    The second Lada sub "Kronshtadt" will receive lithium batteries in place of the standard ones. Rubin considers this a 'small' modernization while the new AIP the 'big' modernisation. So it's up to the MOD to decide if they want it.
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    George1

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  George1 on Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:21 pm

    Russia Tests Hydrogen-Fueled Submarine

    Russian Navy is about to test submarine B-90 Sarov with first Russian-made hydrogen-fueled powerplant by the end of 2012, writes Izvestiya referring to a source in defense ministry. In prospect, such powerplants can be mounted on Project 677 Lada and Amur-1500 submarines. Similar plants are used in German submarines U-212 and U-214.

    According to the source, traditional diesel-electric subs like Varshavyanka-class ones (Project 636) use batteries supplying the electric motor. If the battery is discharged, submarine must surface and start diesel engines to charge the batteries. That makes subs vulnerable. In hydrogen-fueled engines, electric motors are supplied by hydrogen fuel cells.

    The new Russian-made engine is an air-independent powerplant. Like other engines of this type, it considerably increases submerged endurance of non-nuclear subs. In addition, it reduces noisiness level. According to the source, Russian non-nuclear submarines powered by air-independent plants would compete with German diesel subs.

    In July 2012, Russian Navy Commander-in-Chief Admiral Viktor Chirkov decided to resume construction of Project 677 diesel-electric submarines suspended by the ex-commander Vladimir Vysotsky. Earlier, the Navy was not satisfied with characteristics of the new air-independent powerplant for Project 677, it needed improvement.

    So far, Russia has built only one Project 677 submarine named St. Petersburg. She is passing trials at the time. Other two subs of this class, Kronshtadt and Sevastopol are being built. Although their construction was suspended, it can be resumed if the hydrogen powerplant is successfully tested, reports Izvestiya.

    B-90 Sarov is an experimental submarine, the only one built under Project 20120 in 2008. The sub's hull is a Project Sargan experimental submarine laid down late in 80's but not completed due to underfinancing. Sarov displaces about 4,000 tons. The submarine is used for tests of new weapons and equipment.

    http://rusnavy.com/news/navy/index.php?ELEMENT_ID=16298
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    Viktor

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Viktor on Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:24 am

    Well Lada is going in mass production Smile

    Finally things started to move.

    14/02/13 DEFENSE MINISTRY HAS MADE THE CONSTRUCTION OF A SERIES OF SUBMARINES "LADA" IN DEFENSE PROCUREMENT
    February 14 2013.

    RIA Novosti , February 13. Defense Ministry decided to build a batch of non-nuclear submarine of project 677 ("Harmony") and submitted them to the state defense order, told RIA Novosti on Wednesday, general director of "Rosoboronexport" Anatoly Isaikin.

    Earlier, Admiral Vladimir Vysotsky, then served as commander in chief of the Russian Navy, said the possibility of a non-nuclear submarine of the first Russian to airindependent power plant (VNEU) in 2014, based on the draft 677. In August last year, the Ministry of Defense, the Navy and the United Shipbuilding Corporation agreed to resume the construction of a series of submarines "Lada" in 2013, and the corporation is expected to make it to the state defense this year. Now "Admiralty Shipyards" laid two submarines of this project, which was planned to equip VNEU. Later, General Director of "Admiralty Shipyards" Alexander Buzakov reported that VNEU can only be installed on one of the boats. Develop installation specialists CDB "Ruby."

    "Today, the decision to build a batch of these submarines Russian Defense Ministry made. Financing the construction of planned state defense order, and the trial operation of submarines is in accordance with a program that succeeds," - said Isaikin.

    He noted that the boat has more than 130 samples of the latest avionics and ship equipment. "All the characteristics defined terms of reference of the Navy, in the state testing largely confirmed, with the exception of full speed underwater speed," - said the head of Rosoboronexport.

    According to him, the standard-type submarines will be installed upgraded engines, which will provide the necessary power. "Currently, the submarine Project 677 is the main base of the Baltic Fleet and is preparing to move to the Northern Fleet to complete operational testing," - concluded Isaikin.

    A series of diesel-electric submarines of Project 677 is designed chief designer Yuri Kormilitsin. Feature of the series is a combination of small size and low noise with powerful torpedoes and torpedo-missile weapons.

    Boats are designed to destroy submarines, surface ships and enemy ships, protection of naval bases, sea coast and sea communications, reconnaissance. Displacement of the ship is 1.765 million tons, maximum depth -350 meters, Speed ​​- 21 knots, crew - 36 people, autonomy - 45 days, armed with torpedoes and missiles, torpedoes, air defense systems "Igla-1M".
    http://ria.ru/
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    GarryB

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  GarryB on Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:39 am

    That is a heavy sub... think they mean 1.76 thousand tons? What a Face


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    Austin

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Austin on Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:19 am

    The probably mean 1760 metric tons
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    GarryB

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  GarryB on Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:53 am

    1.76 thousand tons is the same as 1,760 tons, so yes they probably also mean that too. Smile

    Or perhaps they meant 1.76 million kgs?

    Either way, the good news is that they are clearly moving forward with the 677 class with further improvements to achieve original requirements.

    I would be very interested to see how it performs on the international market... I think if countries can get over their anti Russian prejudices that it should sell very very well... previously the west has been touting AIP as so important, well it seems that the Russians, while behind on the fuel cell technology the west uses (ie German), have their own technology that uses standard diesel fuel as a catalyst, which makes it even better than the western designs.

    (Note Hydrogen is not an easy material to handle... it evapourates and disappears rapidly of not properly contained, is flammable so it needs special handling and storage procedures to prevent fires and of course is not already in use in most harbours around the world like diesel is so that means from every port you want to operate your German AIP powered sub from you need to spend a lot of money to add infrastructure to handle hydrogen.

    In comparison the Russian AIP uses diesel, which ports already have handling and delivery systems in place to handle and store and deliver to boats on the water which is an enormous advantage. The other advantage is that carrying extra hydrogen for an AIP means it can only be used by the AIP, whereas extra diesel could be rerouted to the main engines if that was needed.

    Very useful.


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    TR1

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  TR1 on Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:48 am

    Mass production when the problems on the lead ship have not even been worked out, and the ship has not gone through trials following the latest modifications...hmm...consider me skeptical.
    Speaking of actually functional subs, the Novorossisk is going to be launched this year.
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    runaway

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  runaway on Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:56 pm

    So who´s the customers?

    "Foreign customers have shown high interest in Russia’s advanced Amur-1650 class submarine, state-run arms dealer Rosoboronexport said on Wednesday.

    "Of the nine countries that are planning to modernize or develop their submarine fleets…three have already chosen the Amur-1650 project", Rosoboronexport’s director Anatoly Isaikin said. He did not name the countries in question. "

    PLN China is one but the others? And ordering a sub that isnt working very well... I should chose 636.3 or perhaps the German 214. It can dive to 400m, which exceeds Lada´s 300m, but is not working fairly well and the customers is unhappy with the overall performance.

    No, my choise is the Swedish A26 which will be very good, but i think we still lack the Shkval type torpedo.




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    Viktor

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Viktor on Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:33 pm

    China is one of those three countries and I suspect Vietnam could be another one no matter 6 Kilo class they bought recently.

    Third might be Venezuela, they wanted those subs for quite a while now but they where not ready.
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  TheArmenian on Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:20 pm

    You may also add Algeria to the list of possible customers for the Harmonious boats (Lada).

    TR1, they may have actualy solved all the bugs and problems with the first unit (St. Petersburg). I don't see them restart construction unless they have solutions in hand.

    In my opinion, the main advantage of these low displacment (1760 T) boats over the Kilos is their low requirement for manpower. These boats go around the various missile treaties that prohibit the land deployment of long range land attack cruise missiles. With the 2000+ km range KALIBR these smallish boats (with miniscule crews) have a colossal conventional or nuclear beheading strike potential...But I will let Mindstorm elaborate on that further (I just hope he uses simpler english with shorter sentences so that we can all understand him Twisted Evil )
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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  GarryB on Fri Feb 15, 2013 8:50 am

    Mass production when the problems on the lead ship have not even been worked out, and the ship has not gone through trials following the latest modifications...hmm...consider me skeptical.

    They have already worked out all the bugs in the first boat and decided on the AIP and new propulsion to deal with the small problems they have found. The fact that they are going ahead suggest all the rumours of lots of problems were BS and that the solutions for those that were real have been found.

    I rather doubt the western alternative subs are perfect either and will have problems too.

    It can dive to 400m, which exceeds Lada´s 300m, but is not working fairly well and the customers is unhappy with the overall performance.

    Being able to operate at a deeper depth is not a huge advantage... it would be much more useful to operate for longer periods without having to surface and the Russian boat has a significant advantage there too.


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    TR1

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  TR1 on Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:42 am

    I would not call the problems small - the program has been stalled for years and repeatedly failed major parameters of testing.

    No solid news on the modifications working in full navy trials as of yet, so I remain skeptical.

    Mindstorm

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Mindstorm on Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:22 pm



    A lot of misconceptions and plain mistakes circulate around both Pr. 677 "Lada" class and its latest export version "Amur-1650",i think it will be useful to delete them one time for all.


    Russian MoD and Navy's Command WILL NOT accept Saint Petersburg , the lead ship of the class on two main basis : underperforming propulsion at high regimes and inconstant/somewhat insufficient energy supply to some key components (among which main sonar).

    The Saint Petersburg has been already used as a tests specimen to validate the functions and sort-out all the problems related to any other system of the Lada class (in particular Lira main sonar showing performance's parameters by a good margin superior to those of any other passive and active sonar mounted on non-nuclear submarine worldwide) but NOT those related to energy storage and propulsion.

    The reason is very simple, "Saint Petersburg" was designed and constructed MUCH BEFORE the achievement and validation of two recent technological breakthrough in those segments :
    A new generation of Lithium-ion battery with energy capacity to volume/weight ratio several times greater than the best lead-acid mounted on foreign SSKs
    An almost revolutionary AIP ,based on hydrogen reforming from common diesel fuel aboard, much more silent, compact and safe than the competitor hydrogen-store based systems and capable to produce over 400 Kw against the 180 maximum of the best foreign competitor !!!


    http://www.stoletie.ru/rossiya_i_mir/sensacii_le_burzhe_929.htm


    Those two new systems will be mounted ,respectively, on the second ship and third ships (the construction of which was purposely frozen waiting for the completion and validation tests of those two systems).
    Kronshtadt will mount the Lithium-ion batteries while Sevastopol will mount both the Lithium-ion batteries and the AIP


    Amur-1650 will integrate the export version of BOTH of those two systems ,therefore if today it already vastly surpass all its competitors in the fire power, main sonar and acoustic/magnetic signature suppression department ,within 4-5 years ,with theirs integration, it will occupy a true league of its-own in the SSK market's sector.



    I rather doubt the western alternative subs are perfect either and will have problems too.

    Absolutely true GarryB Smile Not only they will have.... them had already had problems.
    Terrible experience of the Type-214 in Hellenic and Korean Navy service anyone ?

    http://www.navyleague.org/sea_power/dec06-52.php

    http://www.seapower-digital.com/seapower/seapower_sample/?pg=52#pg52



    Austin

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Austin on Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:01 am

    I wonder how safe it is to use Lithium-Ion Batteries on board submarine considering the problem we know it had encounter with 787 Dreamliner and now A350 too decided not to go with LI batteries ?

    I would wait till the final product with new battereris and AIP make it to 3rd submarine before proclaiming it to be the best submarine in the world , They say what is already Engineered is much better then what is on paper Wink

    But the good news is Russian Naval Command has decided to pursue the Lada design and continue to develop it instead of continually pursuing the late 70 design Kilo and stretching it as it is almost end of it design imporvement life.

    If the AIP and LI Batteries make it sucessfully at the earliest , Most certainly Indian Navy will opt for the Amur design
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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  GarryB on Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:33 am

    The Navy has already stated that it will keep the Saint Petersberg as a test sub to test new weapons and systems, because it is basically fully functional except in terms of propulsion, so it means that it can be used for testing new equipment without having to bring an active sub off duty for the purposes of testing.

    Claims it is the best are no different from US claims the F-22 or B-2 are the best. Any battery option has its own risks... that is the nature of energy storage.


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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  AlfaT8 on Sat Feb 16, 2013 4:11 pm

    To Mindstorm:

    Since your debunking rumors, there are those who say that the Amur/Lada with VLS cruise missiles will have no room for the AIP propulsion, and a follow up question, will the AIP engine replace or will it assist the Diesel engine sorta like a hybrid?

    And wasn't Greece just trying to cancel the contract for the Type214 sub because of financial problems, now it's South Korea, what's wrong with that sub(Type214)?? No

    Austin wrote:I would wait till the final product with new batteries and AIP make it to 3rd submarine before proclaiming it to be the best submarine in the world , They say what is already Engineered is much better then what is on paper Wink

    But the good news is Russian Naval Command has decided to pursue the Lada design and continue to develop it instead of continually pursuing the late 70 design Kilo and stretching it as it is almost end of it design improvement life.

    If the AIP and LI Batteries make it successfully at the earliest , Most certainly Indian Navy will opt for the Amur design

    I wouldn't say the best in the world, but definitely one of the best in the world, the Type214 still wins in depth, at least double that of the Lada. pirat

    With the prospect of the revolutionary AIP propulsion alone it will most definitely continue development, although i wonder if these breakthroughs will be passed to the kilo design? scratch

    That would depend on India's desires and time table.
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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  runaway on Sat Feb 16, 2013 6:27 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:But the good news is Russian Naval Command has decided to pursue the Lada design and continue to develop it instead of continually pursuing the late 70 design Kilo and stretching it as it is almost end of it design improvement life.
    Its not good news to pursue a failed project, better cut your losses and begin with a new design.

    If the AIP and LI Batteries make it successfully at the earliest , Most certainly Indian Navy will opt for the Amur design
    I dont think so, they will want to see a succesful submarine. And i dont see the Kilo is at the end of its design improvement life.

    I wouldn't say the best in the world, but definitely one of the best in the world, the Type214 still wins in depth, at least double that of the Lada. pirat
    The 214 isnt a succesful design, it has many flaws and design problems, many costumers are unhappy.
    The Lada´s test depth is 300m, the 214 400m, hardly double.. The big difference is 214´s doublehull against Ladas monohull. And it seems the monohull wasnt a good idea.

    With the prospect of the revolutionary AIP propulsion alone it will most definitely continue development, although i wonder if these breakthroughs will be passed to the kilo design? scratch
    Yes, most certainly

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Austin on Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:20 pm

    Kilo is being improvised but there is as much juice you can get get from a late 70's design. Kilo design served well but its dated for 21st century.

    Lada is the right move but its taking too long to come up to operational level and now the best hope for it is the next two sub and hopefully they get it right.

    Coming back to depth its not about double or single hull but the materials used , 300 m depth for conventional subs is good enough for most task its designed to perform.



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    AlfaT8

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  AlfaT8 on Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:22 pm

    runaway wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:But the good news is Russian Naval Command has decided to pursue the Lada design and continue to develop it instead of continually pursuing the late 70 design Kilo and stretching it as it is almost end of it design improvement life.
    Its not good news to pursue a failed project, better cut your losses and begin with a new design.

    If the AIP and LI Batteries make it successfully at the earliest , Most certainly Indian Navy will opt for the Amur design
    I dont think so, they will want to see a succesful submarine. And i dont see the Kilo is at the end of its design improvement life.

    By Austin not me. Neutral

    runaway wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:I wouldn't say the best in the world, but definitely one of the best in the world, the Type214 still wins in depth, at least double that of the Lada. pirat
    The 214 isnt a succesful design, it has many flaws and design problems, many costumers are unhappy.
    The Lada´s test depth is 300m, the 214 400m, hardly double.. The big difference is 214´s doublehull against Ladas monohull. And it seems the monohull wasnt a good idea.

    Thanks for the heads up, i thought the Type214 and 212 had the same max depth, i wonder why they don't?? confused
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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  AlfaT8 on Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:11 am

    Austin wrote:Kilo is being improvised but there is as much juice you can get get from a late 70's design. Kilo design served well but its dated for 21st century.

    Hmmm....Lets use the western term of battle proven/proven design, anyway if it ain't broken don't "fix" it. paratrooper

    Austin wrote:Lada is the right move but its taking too long to come up to operational level and now the best hope for it is the next two sub and hopefully they get it right.

    I believe Mindstorm already cleared that up in the earlier post. study

    Austin wrote:Coming back to depth its not about double or single hull but the materials used , 300 m depth for conventional subs is good enough for most task its designed to perform.

    I fully agree. pirat

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Austin on Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:37 am

    Kilo is a double hull sub which means it has larger wetted area needing more powerful engine and far more fuel/energy to get greater range compared to single hull submarine. Considering Fuel/Energy is a premium on conventional submarine double hull on SSK can have its own issue.

    Reason Russia moved to single hull Lada design that are smaller , ligher and can geting longer range for similar fuel as kilo.

    So the issue is its not broken lets not fix it does not arise , The reason why russia is continuing with Kilo design is because Lada design has not come up to expectation and is decade behind service due to technical and management issue coupled with financial problems for the 90's

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