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    Project 677: Lada class Submarine

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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  Singular_Transform on Sun Oct 07, 2018 12:19 pm

    PTURBG wrote:I read that china has working AIPs in service since like 2015. Why not buy it from them. Whatever safety risks chinese AIPs carry, surely it would be better than waiting 5-10 more years for a russian version to be developed?

    The AIP doesn't means better submarine than a diesel electric one.

    The swap of lead to lithium could means active thermal management, with cooling liquid circulation.
    It require pumps and heat exhangers, means all component has to be silent, AND safe.

    In the case of AIP the situation is the same, it is quieter than a diesel during charge, but can be more noisy than a diesel during electrical mode.

    So, the challenge is not just simply swap the batteries/ diesel and so on, but to make every element of the system quiet.

    The AIP can be good for long range /deep sea deployments, IF quiet enough .
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    Vladimir79

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:44 pm

    hoom wrote:Are they not solid state already? Or just not at the scale needed for subs?

    On the one hand there's like billions of ppl walking around all day, every day with Li-ion batteries in their pockets with relatively few cases of them exploding, on the other hand with all the problems Boeing has had with airliner batteries the idea of having similar issues with a couple orders of magnitude more battery & 300m of ocean overhead is super-terrifying.

    They are not solid state, the first submarine scheduled with solid state batteries is the Australian Shortfin Barracuda.

    kumbor

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  kumbor on Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:30 pm

    Singular_Transform wrote:
    PTURBG wrote:I read that china has working AIPs in service since like 2015. Why not buy it from them. Whatever safety risks chinese AIPs carry, surely it would be better than waiting 5-10 more years for a russian version to be developed?

    The AIP doesn't means better submarine than a diesel electric one.

    The swap of lead to lithium could means active thermal management, with cooling liquid circulation.
    It require pumps and heat exhangers, means all component has to be silent, AND safe.

    In the case of AIP the situation is the same, it is quieter than a diesel during charge, but can be more noisy than a diesel during electrical mode.

    So, the challenge is not just simply swap the batteries/ diesel and so on, but to make every element of the system quiet.

    The AIP can be good for long range /deep sea deployments, IF quiet enough  .

    Both Stirling (external combustion) and MESMA (turbine) are engines with mowing parts. Only fuel cells have no mowing parts - and therefore, they are as quiet as sub on batteries.
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    George1

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  George1 on Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:11 am

    Some good quality photos of head ship from bmpd












    hoom

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  hoom on Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:11 am

    Some pics of a partly constructed hull, unclear if its recent pics of the 3rd or older pics of one of the first 2.


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    verkhoturye51

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:07 pm

    http://tass.com/defense/1032462 wrote:Russia will continue [...] the serial construction of at least 12 newest Lada-class diesel-electric subs

    Goodbye Kalina, goodbye AIP.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  miketheterrible on Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:13 pm

    verkhoturye51 wrote:
    http://tass.com/defense/1032462 wrote:Russia will continue [...] the serial construction of at least 12 newest Lada-class diesel-electric subs

    Goodbye Kalina, goodbye AIP.

    AIP is initially for Lada class. Actually, first one had a testing unit I believe. Future were supposed to get it as well. So don't just knock it yet.
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    AlfaT8

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  AlfaT8 on Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:34 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:
    verkhoturye51 wrote:
    http://tass.com/defense/1032462 wrote:Russia will continue [...] the serial construction of at least 12 newest Lada-class diesel-electric subs

    Goodbye Kalina, goodbye AIP.

    AIP is initially for Lada class.  Actually, first one had a testing unit I believe.  Future were supposed to get it as well.  So don't just knock it yet.

    What??

    No, i am pretty sure there was no testing unit when the first sub came out, the AIP was still under development back then.

    As for these new Lada subs, they don't mention whether they'll have the AIP or not, so we will have to wait and see.
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    Hole

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  Hole on Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:50 pm

    First plan was to equip the Lada class with AIP from the fifth sub. The Navy didn´t like this, that´s why the production was stopped for a few years. Either the AIP is ready now and will be fitted from the fourth sub or all twelve will be "normal" diesel subs.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:09 am


    They are newer, faster, quieter, need less crew and there will be double digit number of them so excellent news.

    As for AIP, they designed to be equipped with it should it become available so there is no problem here.


    hoom

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  hoom on Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:51 am

    Russia will continue [...] the serial construction of at least 12 newest Lada-class diesel-electric subs
    Interesting.
    verkhoturye51 is taking use of 'diesel-electric' as 'no AIP' which may be correct implication but isn't explicitly stated.
    Certainly 12 Ladas would mean Kalina is a long way off.

    12 would presumably be 6 each for North & Baltic?
    Still leaves a gap for up to 6 for Tartus/completing BSF squadron, maybe another 6 split between North & Pacific?
    According to Wiki USSR/post-soviet Russia had 24 original 877 Kilos, anyone know how those were split?
    I have the idea they had more than 6 in North/Pacific -> less in Baltic/Black sea, probably somewhat affected by Soviets keeping a heap of older sub classes 'in service' though.

    Some pics from Balancer
    2nd or 3rd hull without sonar


    Line drawings

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    Hole

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  Hole on Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:30 am



    hoom

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  hoom on Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:25 am

    Yeah thats the current setup but its including the new 6 for BSF, only has 16 of the original 24 Kilos included.
    I'm interested in where those 8 retired Kilos were & if there was a post-soviet rebalance at some point.

    Anyway, ppl at Balancer pointed out that just before that section the quote talks about '636.3 for North' rather than Pacific.
    Either there has been a destination change or the reporter has at least partially mis-understood -> 12 Ladas may also be wrong.
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    Hole

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  Hole on Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:07 pm

    2 or 3 were scrapped.

    6 new Kilos for Black Sea Fleet.
    6 new Kilos for Pacific Fleet.

    6 new Kalinas for Baltic Fleet?
    6 new Kalinas for Nothern Fleet?

    Composition would make sense.

    Plus some old Kilos modernised to use Kalibers.

    Here the russian navy can choose what it wants. More Kilos. More Ladas. How many new Kalinas?

    kumbor

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  kumbor on Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:52 pm

    Hole wrote:2 or 3 were scrapped.

    6 new Kilos for Black Sea Fleet.
    6 new Kilos for Pacific Fleet.

    6 new Kalinas for Baltic Fleet?
    6 new Kalinas for Nothern Fleet?

    Composition would make sense.

    Plus some old Kilos modernised to use Kalibers.

    Here the russian navy can choose what it wants. More Kilos. More Ladas. How many new Kalinas?

    Kalina is still in early development stage. We cannot guess how many will be built, if any!
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    Hole

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  Hole on Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:46 pm

    This is what I wanted to say. The Navy can choose between three designs, one which proved itself (Kilo), a new one (Lada) and a future design (Kalina). If the development of Kalina needs a few more years it won´t be a problem.

    kumbor

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  kumbor on Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:15 pm

    Hole wrote:This is what I wanted to say. The Navy can choose between three designs, one which proved itself (Kilo), a new one (Lada) and a future design (Kalina). If the development of Kalina needs a few more years it won´t be a problem.

    I agree that AIP sub is not by any means and always better than DE -SSK sub. If Russians make progress with new batteries and a permasyn type motor, the difference is not so large. Sub on batteries is also very quiet. and the sole source of noise rests the motor - as is on fuel cell sub!
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  GarryB on Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:47 am

    Any progress in nuclear batteries might make AIP a non issue...

    kumbor

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  kumbor on Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:43 am

    GarryB wrote:Any progress in nuclear batteries might make AIP a non issue...

    Nuclear batteries? Such a thing exists physically at all?

    Teshub

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  Teshub on Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:51 am

    kumbor wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Any progress in nuclear batteries might make AIP a non issue...

    Nuclear batteries? Such a thing exists physically at all?
    Smile We've only had them for over a century now...

    kumbor

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  kumbor on Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:25 pm

    Teshub wrote:
    kumbor wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Any progress in nuclear batteries might make AIP a non issue...

    Nuclear batteries? Such a thing exists physically at all?
    Smile  We've only had them for over a century now...

    @Teshub, @ Garry B, By my opinion nuclear batteries are batteries working on nuclear - atomic fission. The atom was first fissioned by Rutherford in 1935, or I am an idiot? First nuclear reactor was made for purpose of Manhattan project in early 40s. So, what are nuclear batteries to produce electricity by nuclear fission, without primary circle to heat water and without need to heat water in secondary circle and power turbine by steam. Turbine than runs E-generators. Fuel cells are not nuclear batteries. dunno
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    chinggis

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  chinggis on Wed Nov 28, 2018 2:58 pm

    kumbor wrote:
    Teshub wrote:
    kumbor wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Any progress in nuclear batteries might make AIP a non issue...

    Nuclear batteries? Such a thing exists physically at all?
    Smile  We've only had them for over a century now...

    @Teshub, @ Garry B, By my opinion nuclear batteries are batteries working on nuclear - atomic fission. The atom was first fissioned by Rutherford in 1935, or I am an idiot? First nuclear reactor was made for purpose of Manhattan project in early 40s. So, what are nuclear batteries to produce electricity by nuclear fission, without primary circle to heat water and without need to heat water in secondary circle and power turbine by steam. Turbine than runs E-generators. Fuel cells are not nuclear batteries. dunno

    Soviet Union is advanced in RTG generators, they made some of them for space use and put it in spacecraft, some of them are made for use in lighthouses on northern passage and for radio relay stations without human crew, if my memory is well, I think they put it on a Voyager II. After brake of SU, and in times of warm period with USA, Russian send one mock up of RTG to USA and never get it back Smile, because Senate is forbidden exporting nuclear technology in SU or Russia Smile (funny isn't it). One of key problems with them is low power output, and SU and now Russian are looking in how to make more powerful RTG setup. Most of this work is not public and information what we know are decade old. And RTG is one of possibility's what are opened by radioisotopes decay, there is other options how to use radioisotopes for producing electricity but output is low and not economical but for special purpose is acceptable.
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  Big_Gazza on Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:31 pm

    chinggis wrote:Soviet Union is advanced in RTG generators, they made some of them for space use and put it in spacecraft, some of them are made for use in lighthouses on northern passage and for radio relay stations without human crew, if my memory is well, I think they put it on a Voyager II. After brake of SU, and in times of warm period with USA, Russian send one mock up of RTG to USA and never get it back Smile, because Senate is forbidden exporting nuclear technology in SU or Russia Smile (funny isn't it). One of key problems with them is low power output, and SU and now Russian are looking in how to make more powerful RTG setup. Most of this work is not public and information what we know are decade old. And RTG is one of possibility's what are opened by radioisotopes decay, there is other options how to use radioisotopes for producing electricity but output is low and not economical but for special purpose is acceptable.    

    The phrase "nuclear battery" is used for RTGs, but they are low-power devices, usually with an output of a few kW at most. They are basically a large number of thermocouples wrapped around a hot core of fuel, usually Pu238. They can run for decades without refuelling, with power levels dropping exponentially as fuel decays (the Voyager probes launched by NASA in 1977 are still functioning today after >40 years).

    RTGs are great for robotic space probes, and could be applied to small ultra-long duration UUVs, but they are useless for propulsion for any practical manned vehicles or water craft.
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    George1

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  George1 on Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:21 am

    Plans to build at least 12 submarines of the project 677 for Russian Navy

    In 2019, the Navy plans to accept the Prince Vladimir and Kazan nuclear submarines built at the Sevmash enterprise in Severodvinsk. The construction of a series of diesel-electric submarines of project 636.3 for the submarine forces of the Northern Fleet will continue, as well as serial construction for the Navy of at least 12 units of the latest diesel-electric submarines of the Lada type.

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3430481.html

    hoom

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  hoom on Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:18 am

    6 new Kilos for Black Sea Fleet.
    6 new Kilos for Pacific Fleet.

    6 new Kalinas for Baltic Fleet?
    6 new Kalinas for Nothern Fleet?
    Ladas not Kalina.

    My interest in the historical split is because recent history prior to the BSF 6 they had most in North & Pacific, presumably guarding SSBNs? -> may want to repeat that rather than even groups of 6.

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