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    Project 677: Lada class Submarine

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    hoom

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  hoom on Sat Sep 22, 2018 3:40 pm

    The Germans don't have the AIP technology they are going to be using
    At first I thought he meant AIP too but turns out Permasyn is a brand of permanent magnet electric motor made by Siemens for subs https://www.industry.siemens.com/verticals/global/en/marine/submarines/propulsion/permasyn/pages/default.aspx

    I recall mention of new permanent magnet electric motors for a new ship (can't remember which?) fairly recently, not heard any mention of espionage Suspect

    So problems with AIP, electric motor & the sonar, no wonder it was considered a writeoff.

    On the topic of 1st ship, if its experimental mission has successfully brought the motor & sonar 'up to speed' and there isn't something fundamentally wrong with it (like hull construction issues causing limited dive depth) then surely it should be expected to enter regular service?
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  GarryB on Sun Sep 23, 2018 3:25 am

    On the topic of 1st ship, if its experimental mission has successfully brought the motor & sonar 'up to speed' and there isn't something fundamentally wrong with it (like hull construction issues causing limited dive depth) then surely it should be expected to enter regular service?

    I think the real problem was that expectations were very high, and while most of the issues have been fixed, in the years it has taken to get it up to scratch they have probably developed new solutions and new materials and new systems and want to step it up another level... plus all the obvious issues of replacing all the components to make sure they are all Russian made would be an issue as well.


    At first I thought he meant AIP too but turns out Permasyn is a brand of permanent magnet electric motor made by Siemens for subs

    Who knows if that is even related to the Lada class subs... all the information I have seen about their AIP using diesel as the catalyst seems to suggest it generates rather more power than pure hydrogen fuel cells, and the logistics and handling issues with diesel fuel are already sorted in pretty much any port on the planet, so with an AIP and new batteries... why would it need this new magnetic system?

    They could just as easily put a couple of the nuclear batteries they designed for space exploration for emergency power if needed...

    hoom

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  hoom on Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:21 am

    Permanent magnet electric motors are quieter, more efficient & smaller than equivalent power conventional electric motors, making them big enough for powering ships is a fairly recent thing -> a desirable generational upgrade.
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:24 am

    Will a new submarine wash away the disgrace of its predecessor
    Today's batteries r better, so even w/o the AIP it's not that bad.
    They may be back fitted with it later, as the Swedes done.

    kumbor

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  kumbor on Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:37 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:Will a new submarine wash away the disgrace of its predecessor
    Today's batteries r better, so even w/o the AIP it's not that bad.
    They may be back fitted with it later, as the Swedes done.

    According to available data, economic speed of pr/677 SSK on batteries is 650NM @3knots, which is a decent figure, not far from stirling driven swedish boats. If future russian AIP can achieve 1000NM range @, say, 6 knots it can be real step forward! It corresponds to 4x bigger energy capacity, or something like that.

    hoom

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  hoom on Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:19 am

    Reading some articles around the launch there was a comment I saw in support of St Petersburg working now, said that it has surprised more than one non-Russian sub in Russian waters, made an active ping (I know you're there mofo!) -> non-Russian sub hightailed it out.

    Maybe just someones fantasy & I wish I could find it again to get a better idea how believable it might be but very interesting if true unshaven

    An admiral at the launch asked if St Petersburg is working properly now is quoted as grinning 'and then some', which tends to support that rumor, but wouldn't be the first time an Official has said 'everythings fine' shortly before some further delay on an already delayed project dunno


    Last edited by hoom on Thu Sep 27, 2018 3:57 pm; edited 1 time in total

    Labrador

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  Labrador on Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:05 pm

    hoom wrote:Permanent magnet electric motors are quieter, more efficient & smaller than equivalent power conventional electric motors, making them big enough for powering ships is a fairly recent thing -> a desirable generational upgrade.
    Simply removes mechanical elements and friction and are less noisy in the futur others system is being studied rim-driven pump jet and shafteless-driven  suppressing all mechanical elements but a actual Virginia by ex is yet extremely silencious.

    With also natural cooling don't use pump a bit noisy but yet exist by ex for Rubis Class but only allow a limited speed.

    kumbor wrote:
    Today's batteries r better, so even w/o the AIP it's not that bad.
    They may be back fitted with it later, as the Swedes done.

    According to available data, economic speed of pr/677 SSK on batteries is 650NM @3knots, which is a decent figure, not far from stirling driven swedish boats. If future russian AIP can achieve 1000NM range @, say, 6 knots it can be real step forward! It corresponds to 4x bigger energy capacity, or something like that.[/quote]

    Kilo are to 400 Mn/3 Kn in genral all SSK can remains submerged 3 - 4 days to low cruise speed
    All AIPs to 4 - 5 kn allow autonomy 10 days to 3 weeks dépends systems the best is the German Siemens Permasym but delicate and more dangerous

    A 677 is also silencious than a 636 ? only Soviet/Russian Sub single hull build since WWII unique

    kumbor

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  kumbor on Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:22 pm

    Labrador wrote:
    hoom wrote:Permanent magnet electric motors are quieter, more efficient & smaller than equivalent power conventional electric motors, making them big enough for powering ships is a fairly recent thing -> a desirable generational upgrade.
    Simply removes mechanical elements and friction and are less noisy in the futur others system is being studied rim-driven pump jet and shafteless-driven  suppressing all mechanical elements but a actual Virginia by ex is yet extremely silencious.

    With also natural cooling don't use pump a bit noisy but yet exist by ex for Rubis Class but only allow a limited speed.

    kumbor wrote:
    Today's batteries r better, so even w/o the AIP it's not that bad.
    They may be back fitted with it later, as the Swedes done.

    According to available data, economic speed of pr/677 SSK on batteries is 650NM @3knots, which is a decent figure, not far from stirling driven swedish boats. If future russian AIP can achieve 1000NM range @, say, 6 knots it can be real step forward! It corresponds to 4x bigger energy capacity, or something like that.

    Kilo are to 400 Mn/3 Kn in genral all SSK can remains submerged 3 - 4 days to low cruise speed
    All AIPs to 4 - 5 kn allow autonomy 10 days to 3 weeks dépends systems the best is the German Siemens Permasym but delicate and more dangerous

    A 677 is also silencious than a 636 ? only Soviet/Russian Sub single hull build since WWII unique[/quote]

    1. Permasyn is a kind of electric motor, not fuel cells.
    2. pr.677 is of 1,5 hull construction, some compartments have double hull.

    Labrador

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  Labrador on Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:33 pm

    kumbor wrote:

    2. pr.677 is of 1,5 hull construction, some compartments have double hull.

    Yasen is but acording a specialist about Soviet/Russians subs which speak Russian 677 is a single hull
    Not sure for Borey 1,5 or 2 hulls ?

    Soumarsov site

    kumbor

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  kumbor on Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:52 pm

    Labrador wrote:
    kumbor wrote:

    2. pr.677 is of 1,5 hull construction, some compartments have double hull.

    Yasen is but acording a specialist about Soviet/Russians subs which speak Russian 677 is a single hull
    Not sure for Borey 1,5 or 2 hulls ?

    Soumarsov site

    I don`t know how to post cutaway. according to longitudinal cutaway It seems to me that sub has at least 1,5 hull construction.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  GarryB on Thu Sep 27, 2018 6:08 am

    According to available data, economic speed of pr/677 SSK on batteries is 650NM @3knots, which is a decent figure, not far from stirling driven swedish boats. If future russian AIP can achieve 1000NM range @, say, 6 knots it can be real step forward! It corresponds to 4x bigger energy capacity, or something like that.

    Russian subs don't have to go anywhere, the real value in AIP is not having to surface.

    Off the top of my head I seem to remember the stats being something like the Kilo can stay underwater for 5-7 days, while the Lada with the new batteries can do more than twice that, and with the AIP it extends to 3-4 weeks underwater but not zipping round at high speed of course.

    The talk was that the new batteries plus the AIP basically made them nuke powered equivalents in terms of time underwater... but without the speed of a nuke of course.

    Their sensors and equipment including land attack cruise missiles and the like also make them nuke like in performance... but as mentioned the first in the series did not meet expectations to start with... they found and fixed the problems and now they are finishing number two and three and likely making one or two more.

    Will a new submarine wash away the disgrace of its predecessor
    Today's batteries r better, so even w/o the AIP it's not that bad.
    They may be back fitted with it later, as the Swedes done.

    What disgrace?

    The Lada design was a very challenging and ambitious design well beyond the performance of the previous model and it took longer than expected to sort out.

    From what I have read the problems are pretty much all sorted so it should be a very very good submarine for the future...

    BTW removed posts regarding off topic stuff has been moved to here:

    Topic

    Labrador

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  Labrador on Thu Sep 27, 2018 2:40 pm

    GarryB wrote:

    The improvement of torpedos made double hull useless. Double hull used to provide very good protection but since torpedos can penetrate them they stped increasing the weight for no sugnificant advantages.

    Not true, the Oscar class sub could really only be reliably sunk by an internal explosion of most of its torpedoes as an example... there was 3m filled with water between its inner and outer hull, which is full of equipment and water ballast... unpressurised and excellent protection for the inner hull.


    No, Subs with double hull are more difficult to destroy if i can say a 2nd shield avoid more a critical hit in the pressure hull inside but you forget Oscar is special with 24 enormeous SS-N-19 there … Wink
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  GarryB on Fri Sep 28, 2018 7:28 am

    So what you are saying is that the M1A2 Abrams is useless... separating the ammo from the crew is a waste of time and that you should keep weapons inside the crew compartment because it is OK?

    Torpedoes either tend to hit the centre of the target, or the noise making part... ie the engine or the middle depending on the direction it is coming from.

    Widely spaced hull compartments means the intervening areas can be filled with water or noise reduction material... so no noise comes from that section...

    You are also assuming that the Oscar will be hit with its missiles still on board...

    hoom

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  hoom on Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:50 am

    This is apparently St Petersburg from presumably shortly after launching.


    Its in the same spot as Kronshtadt was moored after launch -> this comparison

    hoom

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  hoom on Wed Oct 03, 2018 11:39 am

    Couple of recentish (one is 2017 Jan 2018) pics of the AIP fuel-cell module BTE-50K-E http://charly015.blogspot.com/2018/09/la-planta-vneu-aip-rusa-en-pruebas.html


    Presumably actual installation would be multiple of these units to produce the desired power output.

    Bit weirded out by the claimed power output 240-450kW which seems like an excessively wide range, possibly related to the issue of it actually producing only about 1/2 the intended output in early tests?
    But also the 2018 Flotprom one starts by saying capacity will increase from 50 to 100kW then later states 250-450kW number as well scratch

    I feel that the major problem may be the insistence on making a Diesel fuel-cell, it gives simple logistics dock-side but means it has to deal with all sorts of extra reactions/contaminants compared to more simple fuel-cells.
    If they can really get it to work properly it'll be a Real Big Deal though.

    hoom

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  hoom on Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:34 pm

    Couple more of Kronshtadt

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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  GarryB on Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:39 am


    I feel that the major problem may be the insistence on making a Diesel fuel-cell, it gives simple logistics dock-side but means it has to deal with all sorts of extra reactions/contaminants compared to more simple fuel-cells.
    If they can really get it to work properly it'll be a Real Big Deal though.

    I would say simplifying the design to require pure hydrogen might make development quicker and easier, but being able to use diesel means every port on the planet designed to support ships will be able to support your sub without modification or upgrade...

    In terms of infrastructure that is very important... especially when all that expensive and complicated H2 delivery equipment wont be very useful for any other platform... who else will use hydrogen?

    Worst case scenario you could have a few liquid hydrogen bottles on board for an emergency...

    hoom

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  hoom on Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:35 pm

    An article with various interesting details including a variant of St Petersburg detecting foreign subs in Russian waters https://spbvedomosti.ru/news/gorod/esli_nakhmuritsya_lada/

    “In terms of all technical parameters, Kronstadt is superior to previous ships ,” said Igor Vilnit, general director of the enterprise-developer of CKB MT Rubin JSC. - In addition, we took into account all the necessary improvements that had to be done on the lead ship. "Kronstadt" received most of the serial equipment, which passed all the tests and meets the declared characteristics.

    In the trials of the lead ship on the Baltic and on the ranges of the Northern Fleet, St. Petersburg demonstrated the excellent qualities of the “hunter”. In training dueling situations with surface ships and submarines, he invariably first found the "enemy", occupied a position advantageous for the attack, and, not detected, "opened fire." There was an episode when the “Lada” was the only one from afar to notice the NATO submarine, which decided to watch the training and test “battle” of the Russians.

    “No one sees“ Lada ”in the sea, including our submarines of the previous generation ,” explained Yury Kormilitsin, the chief designer of both projects, earlier. - Compared with “Varshavyanka”, “Lada” has several times more powerful underwater acoustics, which no one else in the world has yet (SJC “Lira”). She sees the Varshavyanka several kilometers away, and other nuclear-powered ships, including foreign ones, dozens of kilometers away.


    Last edited by hoom on Sat Oct 06, 2018 3:44 am; edited 1 time in total
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Oct 06, 2018 12:25 am


    ^^^ This is what i was saying. AIP may not be ready yet but everything else on this sub is next gen compared to Kilos which adds up to significant improvement in performance

    So instead of waiting for AIP, Navy decided to switch to new class bit earlier and capitalize on all that fresh hardware

    hoom

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  hoom on Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:07 am

    Semi-OT but since Li-ion batteries have been discussed: https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3366556.html
    Japan launched the first Li-ion battery equipped sub


    Says it gets about the same underwater endurance as AIP but unlike AIP can recharge with the diesels (& quicker charge than lead-acid batteries).
    Costs about $100mil more than the conventional version.
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    Vladimir79

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:52 am

    hoom wrote:Semi-OT but since Li-ion batteries have been discussed: https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3366556.html
    Japan launched the first Li-ion battery equipped sub

    Says it gets about the same underwater endurance as AIP but unlike AIP can recharge with the diesels (& quicker charge than lead-acid batteries).
    Costs about $100mil more than the conventional version.

    Li-Ion are obviously superior to lead acid batteries in performance but they are not safe until they make them solid state.

    hoom

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  hoom on Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:51 am

    Are they not solid state already? Or just not at the scale needed for subs?

    On the one hand there's like billions of ppl walking around all day, every day with Li-ion batteries in their pockets with relatively few cases of them exploding, on the other hand with all the problems Boeing has had with airliner batteries the idea of having similar issues with a couple orders of magnitude more battery & 300m of ocean overhead is super-terrifying.
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  Singular_Transform on Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:10 pm

    hoom wrote:Are they not solid state already? Or just not at the scale needed for subs?

    On the one hand there's like billions of ppl walking around all day, every day with Li-ion batteries in their pockets with relatively few cases of them exploding, on the other hand with all the problems Boeing has had with airliner batteries the idea of having similar issues with a couple orders of magnitude more battery & 300m of ocean overhead is super-terrifying.

    The Lithium batteries can not be charged around freezing point.

    Trying to charge it at low temperature lead to hydrogen built up.

    The lead-acid is more flexible and can work in wider operating environment.

    So, it is not that simple just to swap the batteries, they need good thermal management.

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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  GarryB on Sun Oct 07, 2018 12:05 am

    Not having freezing temperatures would probably be really good for the crew too...

    You do read a lot of stories about new batteries exploding either randomly or while charging... but then there have always been issues with batteries in submarines... starting fires or creating poison gas when sea water hits them...

    PTURBG

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  PTURBG on Sun Oct 07, 2018 5:16 am

    I read that china has working AIPs in service since like 2015. Why not buy it from them. Whatever safety risks chinese AIPs carry, surely it would be better than waiting 5-10 more years for a russian version to be developed?

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