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    Project 677: Lada class Submarine

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    Vladimir79

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  Vladimir79 on Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:14 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    it was morning and looks like there's no sun. In St Petersburg now at night can be 10-11 Celsius.

    It clearly wasn't night time.  According to the first picture these were taken around Navy Day which is at the end of July. On Navy Day it was rather hot at 28°C for the high and 19°C for the low.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:22 pm

    Hole wrote:Maybe the 2 vessels that will be ordered get the VLS.

    First plan was to fit the fifth sub with the AIP system, but at that time the Navy didn´t want a new class of normal diesel subs so the completion of the second (now launched) and third sub was suspended until the AIP system was ready.

    677 Lada has neither VLS nor AIP afaik
    1650  or 950 Amur (river not Amour ;-) were to be export variants of Lada  with VLS but they never really built


    Next improved Kalina model shall have AIP if VLS I dont know, but unlikely.  They are to be for defence and anti sub mostly no need for massive salvos AShM.  
    There is no Kalina in fleet planned before 2025. Perhaps something changes with program 2027


    http://bastion-opk.ru/kalina/





    Vladimir79 wrote:
    It clearly wasn't night time.  According to the first picture these were taken around Navy Day which is at the end of July.  On Navy Day it was rather hot at 28°C for the high and 19°C for the low.

    then it must have been external steam engine heating Sterling AIP Smile
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    George1

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  George1 on Fri Sep 21, 2018 1:11 am

    The submarine "Kronstadt" of the project 677

     At the JSC "Admiralteyskie Verfi" (part of the United Shipbuilding Corporation - USC) in St. Petersburg on September 20, 2018, the ceremony of launching through the launching dock of the Russian Navy being built for the Russian Navy took place. A large diesel-electric submarine B -586 "Kronstadt" (serial number 01571) - the second submarine of the project 677 (cipher "Lada").

       As reported in the press release of Admiralty Shipyards JSC, Alexander Buzakov, General Director of Admiralteiskiye Verfi, named the ship's descent as a significant event: "Today we launch the ship laid in 2005, during these years both financing and construction were suspended. But, the forced pause allowed us to take into account the experience of operating in the Northern Fleet the first ship of this project of the St. Petersburg submarine. Next year we plan to sign contracts for the fourth and fifth boats of the series, and we believe that the future of the non-nuclear submarine fleet is behind the project 677! ".

       On behalf of the Commander-in-Chief of the Navy, the participants in the solemn ceremony were greeted by the Deputy Chief of the Shipbuilding Department of the Russian Navy's Main Command, Captain I Rank Mikhail Krasnopeev: "The whole history of the Admiralty Shipyards, beginning with the Peter the Great era, shows that the company is able to build unique ships. And today's descent is a vivid confirmation of this. It is a great honor for Russian sailors to serve on such modern submarines. "

       The submarine "Kronstadt" - the second in the series of project 677 "Lada" was laid in July 2005. In 2009, under the decision of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, the construction of the order was suspended until the transfer to the pilot operation of the main order of the series of submarines "St. Petersburg". The state contract to resume the construction of the ship was signed on July 9, 2013.

       The submarine "Kronstadt" is built according to the project corrected by the results of the pilot operation of the main ship. On the ships, the shipboard technical equipment control system, the electromotive system, the navigation complex are profoundly modernized. In the long term, the submarines of the Lada project are planned to be equipped with an anaerobic air-independent plant (VNEU), created by specialists of the Central Design Bureau of the MT Rubin.

       The submarines of Project 677 Lada belong to the fourth generation of non-nuclear submarines and are now recognized as the most modern and promising domestic non-nuclear submarines, both from the point of view of combat effectiveness and other tactical and technical characteristics. JSC "Admiralteyskie Verfi" is the only shipbuilding plant of this class.

       It is significant that the descent of the submarine "Kronstadt" takes place in the conditions of a large-scale reconstruction of the slip-completion plant, which is carried out within the framework of the Federal Target Program "Development of the Defense Industrial Complex for the period 2011-2020". Upon its completion, the company will create a modern specialized complex of a closed cycle for the construction of non-nuclear submarines, which will optimize the production process and expand the capabilities of the Admiralty shipyards in the construction of underwater orders. The works under the reconstruction are carried out without stopping the existing production and do not affect the terms of execution of the contracts of the enterprise.

       On the bmpd side, we point out that the second large diesel-electric submarine of Project 677 (code Lada) B-586 Kronstadt (serial number 01571) was laid on JSC Admiralteyskie Verfi shipyard on July 28, 2005, but in 2009 the decision of the Ministry of Defense of Russia the construction of the ship was suspended until the transfer to the pilot operation of the head submarine project 677 B-585 "St. Petersburg". The state contract for the resumption of the construction of the B-586 Kronstadt under the adjusted technical project was signed on July 9, 2013.

       Development of a non-nuclear submarine of a new generation of Project 677 was carried out by JSC "TsKB MT" Rubin "from the beginning of the 1980s. The head submarine of project 677 B-585 "St. Petersburg" (serial number 01570) was laid on JSC "Admiralty Shipyards" on December 26, 1997. However, the construction of the boat turned into a long-term construction and it was launched only on October 28, 2004 and entered the factory road tests in 2007. On April 22, 2010, the submarine "St. Petersburg" was accepted by the Russian Navy, but up to now it is in trial operation in the Northern Fleet.

    The third submarine of the project 677 B-587 "Sevastopol" (serial number 01572) was laid on JSC "Admiralty Shipyards" on November 10, In 2009, under the decision of the Ministry of Defense of Russia, the construction of the ship was also suspended. In October 2013, the name "Sevastopol" by order of the Commander-in-Chief of the Russian Navy was abolished for this boat and handed over to the universal landing ship of the Mistral type ordered in France for the Russian Navy. The contract for the construction of the third submarine of Project 677 on a modified project was signed by the plant in late 2014. On March 19, 2015, the submarine of project 677 B-587 (serial number 01572) was reloaded at JSC Admiralteyskie Verfi shipyard under the name of Velikiye Luki.

    In July 2017, at the International Naval Exhibition IMDS-2017 in St. Petersburg, General Director of JSC "Admiralty Shipyards" Alexander Buzakov said that under the terms of state contracts, the delivery of submarines "Kronstadt" and "Velikiye Luki" of the Russian Navy is scheduled for 2020 and 2021 years respectively.











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    hoom

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  hoom on Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:57 am

    Buttload of pics
    http://bastion-karpenko.ru/kronstadt-677-180920-1/
    http://bastion-karpenko.ru/kronstadt-677-180920-2/
    http://bastion-karpenko.ru/kronstadt-677-180920-3/
    http://bastion-karpenko.ru/kronstadt-677-180920-4/

    Some videos


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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:50 am

    First two are heading to the Baltic fleet assuming they do build two more word is maybe the Nothern will get those.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:03 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:First two are heading to the Baltic fleet assuming they do build two more word is maybe the Nothern will get those.


    hmm Baltic Fleet has so far 1 Sub? I hope all 4 will end up in Baltic Fleet then

    hoom

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  hoom on Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:21 pm

    But its 3 or 5 not 4.
    There are the 2 launched, 1 more in construction & 2 more just announced.

    kumbor

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  kumbor on Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:37 pm

    hoom wrote:But its 3 or 5 not 4.
    There are the 2 launched, 1 more in construction & 2 more just announced.

    These subs are the first single-hulled boats in russian navy for 50 years or more. By russian standards they are rather small so they are optimised for littorals, say Baltic and Black sea in perspective.
    Russians have been working on fuel-cell propulsion for almost 20 years. Evidently, fuel cells are still not ripe to be installed aboard submarine. In comparison to Stirling and MESMA, fuel cells are the most advanced source of energy and also the most expensive. The lead ship, Sankt Peterburg is in experimental service for almost ten years. Some kind of Permasyn motor has been copied from Germans, thanks to FSB espionage, but russian variant had problems with obtaining sufficient power. Also there were problems with sonar suite of a new model! New builds were therefore suspended until problems are solved. Launching of Kronshtadt can mean that problems are overcome... probably.
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Fri Sep 21, 2018 5:58 pm

    hoom wrote:But its 3 or 5 not 4.
    There are the 2 launched, 1 more in construction & 2 more just announced.

    The first lada is a pure test bed ship the thing was crap do not count it has a combat ship, they flat out rejected the first lada has it failed state tests. The ship did its job already it showed them what they did wrong and they corrected the problems.

    It's four not five assuming they do build two more.
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    verkhoturye51

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:35 pm

    kumbor wrote:These subs are the first single-hulled boats in russian navy for 50 years or more.

    Yasen boats are also single hull...Severodvinsk laid down in 1993
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    George1

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  George1 on Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:07 pm

    hoom wrote:But its 3 or 5 not 4.
    There are the 2 launched, 1 more in construction & 2 more just announced.

    the lead ship will be used as experimental only?
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    verkhoturye51

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:14 pm

    George1 wrote:
    hoom wrote:But its 3 or 5 not 4.
    There are the 2 launched, 1 more in construction & 2 more just announced.

    the lead ship will be used as experimental only?

    According to the source, SSK St. Petersburg will not be commissioned into the Navy and remain an experimental prototype:

    http://rusnavy.com/news/navy/index.php?ELEMENT_ID=13698
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    Isos

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  Isos on Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:32 pm

    verkhoturye51 wrote:
    kumbor wrote:These subs are the first single-hulled boats in russian navy for 50 years or more.

    Yasen boats are also single hull...Severodvinsk laid down in 1993

    The improvement of torpedos made double hull useless. Double hull used to provide very good protection but since torpedos can penetrate them they stped increasing the weight for no sugnificant advantages.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Sep 22, 2018 2:25 am


    These subs seem to be chosen replacements​ for Kilos

    While they still don't have AIP fact remains that they are new designs and that every piece of equipment on them is new (redesigned based on St. Petersburg test performance over the years)

    Navy most likely wanted to switch to new and improved model but did not want to delay whole project over one component

    This way they can get the production rolling and test all that new stuff they installed so far

    Also, in addition to having smaller crew than Kilos these new subs are also cheaper than them (according to HI Sutton)
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    Isos

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  Isos on Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:24 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    These subs seem to be chosen replacements​ for Kilos

    While they still don't have AIP fact remains that they are new designs and that every piece of equipment on them is new (redesigned based on St. Petersburg test performance over the years)

    Navy most likely wanted to switch to new and improved model but did not want to delay whole project over one component

    This way they can get the production rolling and test all that new stuff they installed so far

    Also, in addition to having smaller crew than Kilos these new subs are also cheaper than them (according to HI Sutton)

    Those are for testing AIP technology and for baltics. Kilo replacement will be Kalina with VLS and AIP so a little bit bigger than this class.

    Lada are not really new neither.

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  kumbor on Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:39 am

    Isos wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    These subs seem to be chosen replacements​ for Kilos

    While they still don't have AIP fact remains that they are new designs and that every piece of equipment on them is new (redesigned based on St. Petersburg test performance over the years)

    Navy most likely wanted to switch to new and improved model but did not want to delay whole project over one component

    This way they can get the production rolling and test all that new stuff they installed so far

    Also, in addition to having smaller crew than Kilos these new subs are also cheaper than them (according to HI Sutton)

    Those are for testing AIP technology and for baltics. Kilo replacement will be Kalina with VLS and AIP so a little bit bigger than this class.

    Lada are not really new neither.

    Pr.877/636 Kilo class is now almost 40 years old - counting from the year of putting in service the lead SSK! Pr.677 Lada is the first new SSK project after the dissolution of USSR and following "wild nineties "smuta" when only a few already laid down 877/636 hulls were completed. So, in comparison with succesful Kilos, they are new, although maybe "temporary" project while Kalina with AIP is developed. I don`t consider newbuilt 636.6 for Black sea fleet a failure, as they have improved propulsion, new electronics and effective Kalibr-PL aboard. B-871 Alrosa also has experimental pump-jet propulsor. Kilos were not revolutionary design, but they were modern, first russian SSK to boast all-electric propulsion (where DG are used only for charging batteries), and they are very quiet (dubbed "black holes" in the West), but they are manpower intensive. As Russians are the "champions" of submarine construction, every new project is welcome!

    hoom

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  hoom on Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:27 am

    the lead ship will be used as experimental only?
    Yeah if thats the case then a group of 4 would make some sense.

    These subs seem to be chosen replacements​ for Kilos
    Well that was certainly the original plan but more recently its been to just finish off the 2 partly built hulls & be done with it till the Kalinas.

    I guess of they're building more Ladas they've either got the important bits working well enough (at least to be better than more Kilos) or Kalinas are still a long way away, maybe both.

    https://flotprom.ru/2018/%D0%A0%D1%83%D0%B1%D0%B8%D0%BD1/ has at least some brave talk about systems now being up to par
    Google Translate wrote:According to the director of "Rubin", now "St. Petersburg" successfully completes the pilot operation in the Northern Fleet: the boat not only confirmed the specified characteristics, but also surpassed them. Vilnit added that "Kronstadt" implemented not only the solutions already tested, but also those scientific and technological achievements that have yet to be approved. The designers are confident in the successful application of new solutions, the general director of "Rubin" said.

    I was pretty intrigued about this pic of St Petersburg in construction

    Thats a pretty big sonar & I believe a conformal array which is the new fangled thing.
    Probably explains a lot about development troubles aside from the AIP & if software/computing power was problematic could explain why now (with possibly newer processors/years of extra coding time) it could be beating the specs.

    Compare with 636 sonar


    Also Marching Girls were present Very Happy
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    verkhoturye51

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:37 am

    Kalina was supposed to be replacement project for Kilo and Lada. Only 2 years ago, Admiralty shipyard announced the construction would commence in 2018. But than arrived new order for 6 Kilos for Pacific fleet and now 2 Ladas. The point of Kalina is AIP, that was supposed to be ready in 2021-2022, according to the United shipbuilding corporation. So I think there are some problems on this front. Otherwise, we should know at least the design and specifications by now.
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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Sep 22, 2018 11:32 am

    Isos wrote:

    Those are for testing AIP technology and for baltics. Kilo replacement will be Kalina with VLS and AIP so a little bit bigger than this class.

    Lada are not really new neither.

    I really doubt that they got VLS, unless usage of Zircon will get a must. 6 torpedo tubes if just fine for small salvo of Kalibrs/mini Brahmos and VLS make sub bulkier and more expensive.

    @Papa @kumbor
    I just wonder if next AIP subs will have also "ocean going" variant. Then bigger size would matter

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  kumbor on Sat Sep 22, 2018 11:37 am

    hoom wrote:
    the lead ship will be used as experimental only?
    Yeah if thats the case then a group of 4 would make some sense.

    These subs seem to be chosen replacements​ for Kilos
    Well that was certainly the original plan but more recently its been to just finish off the 2 partly built hulls & be done with it till the Kalinas.

    I guess of they're building more Ladas they've either got the important bits working well enough (at least to be better than more Kilos) or Kalinas are still a long way away, maybe both.

    https://flotprom.ru/2018/%D0%A0%D1%83%D0%B1%D0%B8%D0%BD1/ has at least some brave talk about systems now being up to par
    Google Translate wrote:According to the director of "Rubin", now "St. Petersburg" successfully completes the pilot operation in the Northern Fleet: the boat not only confirmed the specified characteristics, but also surpassed them. Vilnit added that "Kronstadt" implemented not only the solutions already tested, but also those scientific and technological achievements that have yet to be approved. The designers are confident in the successful application of new solutions, the general director of "Rubin" said.

    I was pretty intrigued about this pic of St Petersburg in construction

    Thats a pretty big sonar & I believe a conformal array which is the new fangled thing.
    Probably explains a lot about development troubles aside from the AIP & if software/computing power was problematic could explain why now (with possibly newer processors/years of extra coding time) it could be beating the specs.

    Compare with 636 sonar


    Also Marching Girls were present Very Happy

    I think that big bow mounted sonar is "Irtish-Amfora" model ?
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Sep 22, 2018 11:38 am

    verkhoturye51 wrote:Kalina was supposed to be replacement project for Kilo and Lada. Only 2 years ago, Admiralty shipyard announced the construction would commence in 2018. But than arrived new order for 6 Kilos for Pacific fleet and now 2 Ladas. The point of Kalina is AIP, that was supposed to be ready in 2021-2022, according to the United shipbuilding corporation. So I think there are some problems on this front. Otherwise, we should know at least the design and specifications by now.

    https://flotprom.ru/2018/%D0%9E%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BA%D0%B0372/

    They say it is ongoing. Perhaps not only technical problems but also money. Anyway theres no money for Kalinasnow. BTW Kilos 636 werent ordered 3x6? North, Pacific, Black sea fleets?
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    verkhoturye51

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:01 pm

    Kilo 2x6 - Black sea and Pacific fleets

    I don't know man, the design shouldn't be so costly. We know the design of top secret Husky class, design buros make several proposed designs for CVNs probably few decades in advance, so what's the problem here? Perhaps coordination between Navy needs, Ministry budget and shipyard capabilities. Which is going slow due to lower importance of this project, in comparison to Husky and CVNs.

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  hoom on Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:53 pm

    So this pic is actually much older than July Embarassed

    Its here in August 2017 & possibly older than that https://bmpd.livejournal.com/2781767.html

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  kumbor on Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:12 pm

    verkhoturye51 wrote:
    kumbor wrote:These subs are the first single-hulled boats in russian navy for 50 years or more.

    Yasen boats are also single hull...Severodvinsk laid down in 1993

    Both pr.677 and pr.885 have partial double hull construction - along some compartments there is double hull. Watch the longitudinal section!
    Also, concerning survivability of double hull construction, pr.941 Akula - NATO Typhoon were specially designed to survive at least one, possibly even two hits of Mk-48 torpedo when dived. Except for missile containers abreast of tower, pr.949 Antey - NATO Oscar were also projected to survive Mk-48 hit.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  GarryB on Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:20 pm

    Some kind of Permasyn motor has been copied from Germans, thanks to FSB espionage, but russian variant had problems with obtaining sufficient power.

    The Germans don't have the AIP technology they are going to be using... the Germans have hydrogen fuel cell technology, the AIP technology they are using uses diesel fuel instead of Hydrogen...

    According to the source, SSK St. Petersburg will not be commissioned into the Navy and remain an experimental prototype:

    The first Lada vessel will be used for testing new technologies and equipment so subs from the fleet don't need to be taken from service for the role.

    The improvement of torpedos made double hull useless. Double hull used to provide very good protection but since torpedos can penetrate them they stped increasing the weight for no sugnificant advantages.

    Not true, the Oscar class sub could really only be reliably sunk by an internal explosion of most of its torpedoes as an example... there was 3m filled with water between its inner and outer hull, which is full of equipment and water ballast... unpressurised and excellent protection for the inner hull.

    As Russians are the "champions" of submarine construction, every new project is welcome!

    Indeed, the Lada class have rather better sonar sensors of rather better performance, and are much better in almost every parameter than the subs that came before them.

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