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    Project 677: Lada class Submarine

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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  GarryB on Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:54 am


    He is saying that the Oscar will tow the SSK during transit with cables which is not really good because it will need to push its engines at max and produce much more noise.

    Why do you think that it would need to operate its engines at max?

    I would say the greater problem would be when you get to where you are going... when towing a car someone in the towed car has to be there to apply the breaks for when the towing vehicle slows down for whatever reason... like a red light... with no breaks on the towed sub if the towing sub slows down it might find it gets rammed by the towed vessel...

    Of course if the towing tether has a power cable the towing sub could transfer electrical power to the towed vessel so it could operate its electrical propulsion to assist in forward speed and also to stop it when needed too... the two nuclear power plants in the SSGN could easily provide plenty of amps.
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    Isos

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  Isos on Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:22 am

    GarryB wrote:

    He is saying that the Oscar will tow the SSK during transit with cables which is not really good because it will need to push its engines at max and produce much more noise.

    Why do you think that it would need to operate its engines at max?

    I would say the greater problem would be when you get to where you are going... when towing a car someone in the towed car has to be there to apply the breaks for when the towing vehicle slows down for whatever reason... like a red light... with no breaks on the towed sub if the towing sub slows down it might find it gets rammed by the towed vessel...

    Of course if the towing tether has a power cable the towing sub could transfer electrical power to the towed vessel so it could operate its electrical propulsion to assist in forward speed and also to stop it when needed too... the two nuclear power plants in the SSGN could easily provide plenty of amps.


    Maybe not max but it will need to push them so they will produce more noise I assume.
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    runaway

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  runaway on Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:09 pm

    I cant see any reason for towing a SSK... just ridiculus.
    Btw we can read that they have resumed construction of the two remaining Lada subs, so whats the big differencess from St Petersburg? Will they have AIP? I would certainly think so, the russian navy has been 20 years behind with this...

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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:22 pm

    runaway wrote:I cant see any reason for towing a SSK... just ridiculus.
    Btw we can read that they have resumed construction of the two remaining Lada subs, so whats the big differencess from St Petersburg? Will they have AIP? I would certainly think so, the russian navy has been 20 years behind with this...


    Author is "expert" form National Interest. What would you expect? As for AIP. Well Russians wanted another way, instead of expensive German or loud Swedish approaches gone way safer and easier in terms of infrastructure.

    True that project was under financed but I'd presume AIP wlll be installed in Kalinas
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  GarryB on Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:25 am

    Will they have AIP? I would certainly think so, the russian navy has been 20 years behind with this...

    Like in every field where things are not going super fast... they are having problems because what they are trying to do is brand new and ground breaking... if speed of production was the most important thing they could have an all new fleet of brand new ships and subs that would not look out of place in 1985.

    The AIP they are developing uses diesel fuel as the catalyst.

    Big deal you say.

    Well actually it is a huge deal.

    First of all it generates more power than your average hydrogen power cell.

    Second one of the biggest problems with introducing a new technology is the cost of upgrading the infrastructure everywhere it will operate...

    Having a super new hydrogen fuel cell technology would be nice but the cost of upgrading all the Russian ports to allow them to actually use the technology is not so flash... not to mention most ports around the world wont have such facilities either so most of the time it will operate without its AIP actually working or will have to work out a way of delivering fuel at sea... a new capability that is not the same as delivering fossil based fuels.

    Just the same as developing the super new Zircon hypersonic missile... if they had done it in the 1980s it would not have been that much of a big deal because it would take a while for them to make enough new ships able to carry it.

    Today however with an AIP that uses diesel they can operate from pretty much most current domestic and international ports.

    Equally with UKSK launchers once the Zircon is in service it can be widely deployed immediately.

    The problem for the Russian Navy is that they have two new driving design paradymes... modularity, which should allow for the full standardisation of their new and upgraded ships and subs, and multirole, which means instead of building 15 anti ship destroyers and 15 anti sub destroyers, they can make 25 vessels able to perform either or both roles... roles they can change when it comes time to load the UKSK bins.

    hoom

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  hoom on Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:33 am

    T-44 want bad tank either  so why Soviet MoD did not produce thousands of it?
    Not sure how it applies to Lada but arguably they did.
    The problem with T-44 is that it only had an 85mm gun & that wasn't enough by the end of WWII when it was coming into service (several hundred were in service prior to Berlin but not sent to the front due to not wanting to complicate logistics).
    They tried upgrading to 100mm gun but wasn't satisfactory because the tank was just not big enough -> bigger version specifically sized for 100mm was the T-54/T-55 the most produced tank ever.


    The AIP they are developing uses diesel fuel as the catalyst.
    Diesel as fuel not as catalyst.
    Diesel as fuel has the logistic advantages you cite yes but is harder to develop.

    Hydrogen fuel cell reaction is 2* H2 + catalyst + O2 -> 2* H2O + electricity + heat + catalyst.
    You can rely on both the H2 & O2 to be very high purity due to the nature of fuel production.

    For diesel its something like C12H24 + catalyst + 24* O2 -> 12* H2O + 12* CO2 + electricity + heat + catalyst.
    But diesel isn't pure C12H24, its a range of different lengths & includes various contaminants like Sulfur that will complicate the reaction, leave behind bits of crap &/or react with the catalyst in bad ways.
    So its not a surprise they are having a hard time making it practical for powering a sub.
    If they get it to work really well it'll be a big breakthrough though.
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    runaway

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  runaway on Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:36 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Author is "expert" form National Interest. What would you expect? As for AIP. Well Russians wanted another way, instead of expensive German or loud Swedish approaches gone way safer and easier in terms of infrastructure.

    True that project was under financed  but I'd presume AIP wlll be installed in Kalinas

    Loud Swedish approach?

    Sweden’s submarine force is relatively tiny, just five boats make up the entire inventory, but those five vessels are extremely stealthy and lethal, especially their three Gotland Class diesel-electric submarines. Entering service in the mid 1990s, the 1600 ton displacement Gotland Class was the first operational Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) submarines in the world, which gave them the previously unprecedented operational ability (for non-nuclear submarines at least) to stay submerged for weeks at a time.

    Oh, and Kockums’ AIP system is virtually silent, even in comparison to multi-billion dollar nuclear powered boats that still have to pump high-volumes coolant to their reactors.

    Sweden Has A Sub That's So Deadly The US Navy Hired It To Play Bad Guy and the Gotland managed to sneak in and "sink" the CV several times.

    So DONT call the swedish AIP loud!


    hoom

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  hoom on Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:12 pm

    Loud Swedish approach?
    I think its a belief that the Stirling Engine is loud.
    I'm not sure it is.
    It burns fuel outside the cylinder constantly & probably very quietly, the cylinder going back & forward is going to be a source of noise but less so than an internal combustion engine since its fairly low pressure & doesn't have an explosion at one end of the cycle.
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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:18 pm

    hoom wrote:
    Loud Swedish approach?
    I think its a belief that the Stirling Engine is loud.
    I'm not sure it is.
    It burns fuel outside the cylinder constantly & probably very quietly, the cylinder going back & forward is going to be a source of noise but less so than an internal combustion engine since its fairly low pressure & doesn't have an explosion at one end of the cycle.
    There is no combustion with a sterling engine, it only works with pressure differentials, therefore making it noiseless.
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    Militarov

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  Militarov on Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:37 pm

    Stirling engines are extremly quiet. Not sure who and where told you its loud. Very crude stirling engines built basically in highschool workshops developed 59 decibels of noise at 1m of distance. Compared to diesels that is like vacoom Very Happy
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:47 am

    The French SSKs have MESMA AIP (DCNS models) & DRDO PAFC Fuel Cell AIP:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorp%C3%A8ne-class_submarine

    How do both compare with Stirling engines?
    The Japanese SSKs also use them, but Australia won't buy them:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C5%8Dry%C5%AB-class_submarine

    https://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/inquirer/french-barracuda-submarine-the-most-complex-artefact-in-australia/news-story/6fcfe2d0e1c5f68b17e5df4b18501a7d

    Peŕrier

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  Peŕrier on Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:17 am

    The swedish approach through the Sterling engine doesn't suffer fron noise levels.

    It's main problem is thermal dissipation, followed by chemical waste into the seawater.

    Both are minor issues, but still the fuel cells do not suffer such problems, and they are today the most discrete solution available.

    It could be worth noting that amongst MPAs is getting popular to have UV scanner, to monitor and identify pollution's spots amidst the sea.

    It could be too early to infere that an ASW patrol aircraft could spot and track down the chemical trail leaved behind by a running Sterling engine, still it could become a reality in the future, maybe a near future.

    Until a Sterling engine equipped SSK operates in friendly waters it should not be a big issue, but whenever it would be tasked to operate in contested or hostile waters, it could prove itself a weak point.

    hoom

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  hoom on Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:21 am

    There is no combustion with a sterling engine, it only works with pressure differentials, therefore making it noiseless.
    Standard version of a stirling engine you have an external flame heating one end.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:59 pm

    Peŕrier wrote:The swedish approach through the Sterling engine doesn't suffer fron noise levels.

    It's main problem is thermal dissipation, followed by chemical waste into the seawater.


    a) Stirling engines still have to be warmed by external source - and warming up form batteries makes no sense since you got to feed electric motors. Thus you need actual chemical heaters (you burn something - if hydrogen then it can blow)

    b) You still have moving parts in engine itself (not only electrical ones) so it is not that silent.

    c) toque / power output regulation is fairly cumbersome and sudden speeding up slowing is problematic

    last but not least

    d) did anybody see Stirling powered AIP sub working on more than 200 meters? I did some research and in case of stirling AIP for olielr they say 50-100m max, national interest 160-200 m


    For some strange reason Japanese Navy replaced Stirlings in last batch of Soryuo subs by Li-on batteries. Isnt it?


    Peŕrier wrote:
    the fuel cells do not suffer such problems, and they are today the most discrete solution available


    Hmm you need to have
    a) port infrastructure with liquid oxygen hydrogen storage

    b) you carry hydrogen on sub...




    Russian AIP is meant to be: expensive infrastructure independent (you need only to tank diesel fuel) . It has on board diesel fuel reformer . I.e. an installation to "on fly" modify diesel into hydrogen for cells. Littel risk of explosion and much cheaper if implemented. We need to wait untill it will be properly financed though.
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    Militarov

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  Militarov on Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:17 am

    Maximum depths are about 200m. Test depth for most subs using stirling engines is 150m. Pressure is the limiting factor.
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    runaway

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  runaway on Thu May 03, 2018 3:28 pm

    News or perhaps rumors regarding Lada class. From the National Interest


    "Though some reports claim new propulsion tech is already well under development, a Russian officer in naval construction stated that a new AIP drive is only likely to come around in 2021–22.

    Russian designers have also spoken about developing lithium-ion-battery-powered submarines as an alternate means of extending underwater endurance. However, currently only Japan and South Korea are at all close to implementing this technology on operational submarines.

    Ultimately, construction finally did resume on the Lada-class boats, with the Kronstadt and Veliye Luki expected to launch in 2019 and 2021 respectively — without AIP propulsion. After an announcement that production of the series would end after these two boats in 2016, Adm. Vladimir Korolev announced in July 2017 that a fourth and fifth Lada boat would follow — possibly equipped with AIP-powered propulsion, if it were available."

    Why not just scrap the hulks and begin all over.. maybe scrap the AIP as it seems russia is unable to develop its "diesel" variant. Better go lithium-ion

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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu May 03, 2018 4:17 pm

    runaway wrote:News or perhaps rumors regarding Lada class. From the National Interest

    Why not just scrap the hulks and begin all over.. maybe scrap the AIP as it seems russia is unable to develop its "diesel" variant. Better go  lithium-ion


    Not sure if NI is best source to learn about Russian Fleet. They claimed that Kinzhal is not hypersonic :-))) As for AIP - this is clear example of under investment. Looks like diesel-electrical subs will be produced in 2020 (636.3) so why to hurry?

    As for lithium batteries - they are ok but not sure if better not to use AIP. With  diesel makes AIP cheaper in maintenance and safer than hydrogen one.


    Last edited by GunshipDemocracy on Thu May 03, 2018 11:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu May 03, 2018 11:09 pm

    Is it possible to add AIP on them later? The Swedes done it on 1 French & their sub:
    In the mid-1980s Kockums installed Stirling engines and a liquid oxygen (LOX) system from AGA Cryo aboard the French 500 ton civilian research submarine Saga. The Saga has an operating depth of 600 meters and is fitted with a diving system for work at depths as deep as 450 meters.
    Intense R&D and the experiences gained from the Saga project paved way for the installation of a Stirling engine in the Royal Swedish Navy submarine HMS Näcken in 1988. The submarine was placed in dry-dock and cut in two. A fully outfitted eight-meter AIP section was then inserted. The years of practical sea-trials that followed were extremely satisfactory and resulted in the installation of Stirling AIP systems in the new Swedish Gotland Class submarines.
    https://saab.com/naval/submarines-and-warships/technologies/the-stirling-engine/
    They need more SSKs anyway so even w/o AIP they can patrol/deploy to coastal areas/closed seas with not much less mission capability being reduced. Later, some of them may be backfitted with AIP &/or sold "as is", like the original & improved Kilos were:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilo-class_submarine#Operators
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    Militarov

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  Militarov on Thu May 03, 2018 11:14 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:Is it possible to add AIP on them later? The Swedes done it on 1 French & their sub:
    In the mid-1980s Kockums installed Stirling engines and a liquid oxygen (LOX) system from AGA Cryo aboard the French 500 ton civilian research submarine Saga. The Saga has an operating depth of 600 meters and is fitted with a diving system for work at depths as deep as 450 meters.
    Intense R&D and the experiences gained from the Saga project paved way for the installation of a Stirling engine in the Royal Swedish Navy submarine HMS Näcken in 1988. The submarine was placed in dry-dock and cut in two. A fully outfitted eight-meter AIP section was then inserted. The years of practical sea-trials that followed were extremely satisfactory and resulted in the installation of Stirling AIP systems in the new Swedish Gotland Class submarines.
    https://saab.com/naval/submarines-and-warships/technologies/the-stirling-engine/
    They need more SSKs anyway so even w/o AIP they can patrol/deploy to coastal areas/closed seas with not much less mission capability being reduced. Later, some of them may be backfitted with AIP &/or sold "as is", like the original & improved Kilos were:
     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilo-class_submarine#Operators

    You can always add additional capabilities via the hull cutting or splitting sub as they did however its expencive as Hell feat.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  GarryB on Sat May 05, 2018 7:26 am

    Don't scrap them, because although they did not live up to expectations they are still rather better boats than any currently in service.

    It would be certainly in Americas interests if Russia just scrapped all its submarines it is making now and developing in the near future...

    Not really in Russian interests though.

    As for lithium batteries - they are ok but not sure if better not to use AIP. With diesel makes AIP cheaper in maintenance and safer than hydrogen one.

    Actually they are already working on both anyway and likely will end up using both lithium ion batteries AND diesel based AIP systems.

    Is it possible to add AIP on them later?

    Almost certain that they will.

    They were originally expected to have AIPs so no doubt they will perhaps allow for that in the design.
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sun May 06, 2018 3:20 am

    What we refer to as "AIP" is the method of generating the electrical power, it doesn't restrict in anyway the battery technology used to store the energy. Choice of battery affects the charger technology, but this is a relatively simple issue, and power generation & storage can be developed and trialed independently.
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    George1

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  George1 on Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:03 pm

    Б-585 "Санкт-Петербург"

    https://navy-korabel.livejournal.com/192933.html

    hoom

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  hoom on Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:28 pm

    2nd boat Kronstadt to be launched 20th Sept Shocked https://flotprom.ru/2018/%D0%90%D0%B4%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BB%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%B9%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B5%D0%92%D0%B5%D1%80%D1%84%D0%B810/
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:47 pm

    hoom wrote:2nd boat Kronstadt to be launched 20th Sept Shocked

    why shock ? whis is actually good. Second new sub for Baltic Fleet.

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  hoom on Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:37 pm

    The fact that there is any news at all, has nothing for a long time.
    Also apparently in March Deputy Minister of Defense said it wouldn't be launched until 2019...

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