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    Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

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    George1

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  George1 on Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:11 pm

    Reflections on the fate of B-585


    As is known, on 22.04.2010 a large (diesel-electric) submarine (SSB) B-585 "St. Petersburg", the head ship of Prospect 677, was transferred to the Navy in experimental operation, which is known very little. From 2010 to 2013. B-585 annually took part in the parades on the Neva on Navy Day, on October 17, 2013, completed the transition to the Northern Fleet, where in 2014 she also participated in the parade (ref. 1), in 2015-2017. holidays passed without it. The only significant event received coverage in the media was the successful firing of a cruise missile [3M54 Caliber] on a sea target, made in the Barents Sea on November 17, 2016 (ref. 2).

    At the end of last year, one of the guests of my magazine, referring to a reliable source, said that the B-585 "has been going to the North for many years for the summer, and is returning to St. Petersburg for alterations for the winter." I must admit that this news surprised me a bit, because since 2014 (when I began to track events related to the ships of the main classes of the Russian Navy), I never came across photos of "St. Petersburg" in the North Sea or on the Baltic, made by NATO sailors or our shippitters , as well as reports of the arrival of B-585 to the Admiralty Shipyards, the Kronstadt Marine Plant, or to the Lomonosov 28 military plant (shipyard of the Navy).

    No traces of the mysterious boat could be detected with the help of SCAP, the automated system of the services of the captain of the Big Port of St. Petersburg, where both civil ships and warships are scrupulously recorded. Search by name in the section "Ships in the Port" (at berths and berths) (reference 3) gives 22 ships of the submarine "St. Petersburg", the end of the last of which (№214631) is dated September 19, 2013, when B-585 departed from berth in Kronstadt and went to the sea (reference 4) - the date of departure from Kronstadt corresponds to the beginning of the interflot transition to the SF by reference 1. I have no reason not to trust my guest, but the information received from him about the regular IFP "St. Petersburg" requires confirmation. Annual long-distance transfers back and forth (2x2200 miles) were unlikely to benefit the material part of the submarine of the near-sea zone, besides, there are enough SRH in the North.

    It makes sense to quote three quotes with very useful information from the interview of the general directors of the Admiralty Shipyards and the Central Design Bureau of the MT Rubin by A. Buzakov and I. Vilnita.

    Quotation 1: "If you do not remember the conditions under which the submarine" St. Petersburg "was created, then it will not be clear why ... the protracted exploitation in which the ship is now in the pipeline was delayed. At the time of construction, there was practically no rhythmic financing and real money for carrying out experimental design work, forced decisions were made to test the first samples of OCD as part of the ship, and there were a lot of them, and as a result, the boat turned out to be a kind of test ship, This equipment "(A. Buzakov - Reference 5).

    Quotation 2: "Some media reported that the submarine" St. Petersburg "could be upgraded.This so?" "Perhaps this is one of the versions of the future use of this boat." I can say that it will be carried out scheduled dock repairs, after that [ "SPb"] will continue the experimental operation, because there are a few parameters for which it has not yet been possible to obtain measurements. "And later the fleet will decide how to use the ship" (A. Buzakov, August 11, 2017 - the same link).

    Quotation 3: "Based on the results of the pilot operation [of" St. Petersburg "], and also taking into account the fact that during this time there were new radio-electronic means and other systems," Rubin "created an improved project, according to which two ships of this class are currently built" (I. Vilnit - reference 6).

    Complete the pilot operation program B-585 promised in 2014, and 2015, and 2016 gg. (ref. 8, ref. 9, ref. 11), after which the promises ceased, most likely judiciously judging that the next promise would risk permanently turning the epic from the first boat of the fourth generation into a bad performance. Meanwhile, last October it became known that the construction of those two ships of the improved project is proceeding at a rather brisk pace: sections of the first serial boat (Kronstadt) have already been docked in a single hull, pipelines and various life support systems have been installed, electrical equipment and lines have been installed shaft, the loading of drawers was carried out. On another order (Velikie Luki), the fore and aft sections of the hull are formed, hydraulic tests of both sections were made (ref. 12). "Kronstadt" is planned to be launched this year, to transfer the Navy in 2020, "Velikie Luki" - most likely, a year later (ref. 5).

    Taking into account the above, we will try to predict the future fate of B-585. It seems that the key word here is "modernization." After the dock repair and the performance of the necessary measurements, their results will be taken into account in the construction of the first serial boat (and in fact, the head of the project, 677.1). According to the experience of "Gorshkov" and "Makarov", the state tests of "Kronstadt" will continue until the victorious end (until full compliance with the TTZ) and may last for, say, a year. In this case, the surrender of the Great Onions will automatically shift to the right, at which the same modifications will be carried out as at Kronstadt. Most likely, at the same time, Rubin will carry out the modernization project of SPb in order to bring its TTX to the level of 677.1, after which the RDD will be developed and work will start to bring the B-585 to mind (to AB or to CMP). As a result, somewhere in 2025 we will have (presumably in the SF) a group of three or five (ref. 13) of the same type of 4th generation PLL (with one minus due to the absence of VNEU).

    https://navy-korabel.livejournal.com/183662.html


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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:46 pm

    the surrender of the Great Onions

    ''Transfer of Velikii Luki'' = ''surrender of the Great Onions''

    Okay we just got machine translation cockup that surpassed infamous PAK-YES lol1

    Not gonna lie, I was waiting for this for some time, it was inevitable.... Cool
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  TheArmenian on Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:55 pm

    I laughed so hard.

    First it was "company Dry" = company Sukhoi
    Then it was PAK-YES = PAK-DA
    Now this.

    Move over "Hunt for Red October" it is time for the "Surrender of the Great Onions".
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:45 pm

    Did a Russian Built SSK 'Sink' a USN SSN?
    http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/did-russian-built-stealth-submarine-sink-navy-nuclear-attack-24567
    The Virginias may not be quieter then the Kilos & Yuans, but the new Russian SSKs may be even quieter than the Kilos. They could even escort noisy Oskars. In transit, divers can hook up electric/towing cables so both can run & stay deep limited only by their food stocks!
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    Isos

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Isos on Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:30 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:Did a Russian Built SSK 'Sink' a USN SSN?
    http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/did-russian-built-stealth-submarine-sink-navy-nuclear-attack-24567
    The Virginias may not be quieter then the Kilos & Yuans, but the new Russian SSKs may be even quieter than the Kilos. They could even escort noisy Oskars. In transit, divers can hook up electric/towing cables so both can run & stay deep limited only by their food stocks!

    Old article. In shallow waters SSK are far better than SSN.

    Peŕrier

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Peŕrier on Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:52 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:Did a Russian Built SSK 'Sink' a USN SSN?
    http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/did-russian-built-stealth-submarine-sink-navy-nuclear-attack-24567
    The Virginias may not be quieter then the Kilos & Yuans, but the new Russian SSKs may be even quieter than the Kilos. They could even escort noisy Oskars. In transit, divers can hook up electric/towing cables so both can run & stay deep limited only by their food stocks!

    Those are two very interesting statements, or maybe hypothesis: that a new SSK class could possibly be less quieter the the previous, and that a SSK with its few hours endurance at medium speed could escort a SSGN with its unlimited endurance.

    Who is seriously believing or even proposing such kind of madness?
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    Isos

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Isos on Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:04 pm

    Peŕrier wrote:
    Tsavo Lion wrote:Did a Russian Built SSK 'Sink' a USN SSN?
    http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/did-russian-built-stealth-submarine-sink-navy-nuclear-attack-24567
    The Virginias may not be quieter then the Kilos & Yuans, but the new Russian SSKs may be even quieter than the Kilos. They could even escort noisy Oskars. In transit, divers can hook up electric/towing cables so both can run & stay deep limited only by their food stocks!

    Those are two very interesting statements, or maybe hypothesis: that a new SSK class could possibly be less quieter the the previous, and that a SSK with its few hours endurance at medium speed could escort a SSGN with its unlimited endurance.

    Who is seriously believing or even proposing such kind of madness?

    He is saying that the Oscar will tow the SSK during transit with cables which is not really good because it will need to push its engines at max and produce much more noise.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:45 pm

    Isos wrote:
    He is saying that the Oscar will tow the SSK during transit with cables which is not really good because it will need to push its engines at max and produce much more noise.


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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:34 pm

    Peŕrier wrote:
    Tsavo Lion wrote:Did a Russian Built SSK 'Sink' a USN SSN?
    http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/did-russian-built-stealth-submarine-sink-navy-nuclear-attack-24567
    The Virginias may not be quieter then the Kilos & Yuans, but the new Russian SSKs may be even quieter than the Kilos. They could even escort noisy Oskars. In transit, divers can hook up electric/towing cables so both can run & stay deep limited only by their food stocks!

    Those are two very interesting statements, or maybe hypothesis: that a new SSK class could possibly be less quieter the the previous, and that a SSK with its few hours endurance at medium speed could escort a SSGN with its unlimited endurance.
    Who is seriously believing or even proposing such kind of madness?

    Do some research before posting replies. See the underlined sentence; the Virginia class is SSN, not an SSK. If not towed by SSGNs, SSKs could go slower under their own power/snorkel & stop for recharging via an electric cable. With AIP or hybrid NP plant discussed earlier that may not even be so essencial.
    We don't know the circumstances of that "sinking"- whether it was in the littoral or deep open ocean. Some littoral areas, incl. around India, have continental shelf with deep waters starting just a few dozen miles off shore. https://www.quora.com/Why-does-the-continental-shelf-along-the-western-coast-of-India-look-broader-than-the-Eastern-continental-shelf
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    GarryB

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  GarryB on Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:54 am


    He is saying that the Oscar will tow the SSK during transit with cables which is not really good because it will need to push its engines at max and produce much more noise.

    Why do you think that it would need to operate its engines at max?

    I would say the greater problem would be when you get to where you are going... when towing a car someone in the towed car has to be there to apply the breaks for when the towing vehicle slows down for whatever reason... like a red light... with no breaks on the towed sub if the towing sub slows down it might find it gets rammed by the towed vessel...

    Of course if the towing tether has a power cable the towing sub could transfer electrical power to the towed vessel so it could operate its electrical propulsion to assist in forward speed and also to stop it when needed too... the two nuclear power plants in the SSGN could easily provide plenty of amps.


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    Isos

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Isos on Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:22 am

    GarryB wrote:

    He is saying that the Oscar will tow the SSK during transit with cables which is not really good because it will need to push its engines at max and produce much more noise.

    Why do you think that it would need to operate its engines at max?

    I would say the greater problem would be when you get to where you are going... when towing a car someone in the towed car has to be there to apply the breaks for when the towing vehicle slows down for whatever reason... like a red light... with no breaks on the towed sub if the towing sub slows down it might find it gets rammed by the towed vessel...

    Of course if the towing tether has a power cable the towing sub could transfer electrical power to the towed vessel so it could operate its electrical propulsion to assist in forward speed and also to stop it when needed too... the two nuclear power plants in the SSGN could easily provide plenty of amps.


    Maybe not max but it will need to push them so they will produce more noise I assume.
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    runaway

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  runaway on Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:09 am

    I cant see any reason for towing a SSK... just ridiculus.
    Btw we can read that they have resumed construction of the two remaining Lada subs, so whats the big differencess from St Petersburg? Will they have AIP? I would certainly think so, the russian navy has been 20 years behind with this...

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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:22 am

    runaway wrote:I cant see any reason for towing a SSK... just ridiculus.
    Btw we can read that they have resumed construction of the two remaining Lada subs, so whats the big differencess from St Petersburg? Will they have AIP? I would certainly think so, the russian navy has been 20 years behind with this...


    Author is "expert" form National Interest. What would you expect? As for AIP. Well Russians wanted another way, instead of expensive German or loud Swedish approaches gone way safer and easier in terms of infrastructure.

    True that project was under financed but I'd presume AIP wlll be installed in Kalinas
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    GarryB

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  GarryB on Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:25 pm

    Will they have AIP? I would certainly think so, the russian navy has been 20 years behind with this...

    Like in every field where things are not going super fast... they are having problems because what they are trying to do is brand new and ground breaking... if speed of production was the most important thing they could have an all new fleet of brand new ships and subs that would not look out of place in 1985.

    The AIP they are developing uses diesel fuel as the catalyst.

    Big deal you say.

    Well actually it is a huge deal.

    First of all it generates more power than your average hydrogen power cell.

    Second one of the biggest problems with introducing a new technology is the cost of upgrading the infrastructure everywhere it will operate...

    Having a super new hydrogen fuel cell technology would be nice but the cost of upgrading all the Russian ports to allow them to actually use the technology is not so flash... not to mention most ports around the world wont have such facilities either so most of the time it will operate without its AIP actually working or will have to work out a way of delivering fuel at sea... a new capability that is not the same as delivering fossil based fuels.

    Just the same as developing the super new Zircon hypersonic missile... if they had done it in the 1980s it would not have been that much of a big deal because it would take a while for them to make enough new ships able to carry it.

    Today however with an AIP that uses diesel they can operate from pretty much most current domestic and international ports.

    Equally with UKSK launchers once the Zircon is in service it can be widely deployed immediately.

    The problem for the Russian Navy is that they have two new driving design paradymes... modularity, which should allow for the full standardisation of their new and upgraded ships and subs, and multirole, which means instead of building 15 anti ship destroyers and 15 anti sub destroyers, they can make 25 vessels able to perform either or both roles... roles they can change when it comes time to load the UKSK bins.


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    hoom

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  hoom on Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:33 pm

    T-44 want bad tank either  so why Soviet MoD did not produce thousands of it?
    Not sure how it applies to Lada but arguably they did.
    The problem with T-44 is that it only had an 85mm gun & that wasn't enough by the end of WWII when it was coming into service (several hundred were in service prior to Berlin but not sent to the front due to not wanting to complicate logistics).
    They tried upgrading to 100mm gun but wasn't satisfactory because the tank was just not big enough -> bigger version specifically sized for 100mm was the T-54/T-55 the most produced tank ever.


    The AIP they are developing uses diesel fuel as the catalyst.
    Diesel as fuel not as catalyst.
    Diesel as fuel has the logistic advantages you cite yes but is harder to develop.

    Hydrogen fuel cell reaction is 2* H2 + catalyst + O2 -> 2* H2O + electricity + heat + catalyst.
    You can rely on both the H2 & O2 to be very high purity due to the nature of fuel production.

    For diesel its something like C12H24 + catalyst + 24* O2 -> 12* H2O + 12* CO2 + electricity + heat + catalyst.
    But diesel isn't pure C12H24, its a range of different lengths & includes various contaminants like Sulfur that will complicate the reaction, leave behind bits of crap &/or react with the catalyst in bad ways.
    So its not a surprise they are having a hard time making it practical for powering a sub.
    If they get it to work really well it'll be a big breakthrough though.
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    runaway

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  runaway on Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:36 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Author is "expert" form National Interest. What would you expect? As for AIP. Well Russians wanted another way, instead of expensive German or loud Swedish approaches gone way safer and easier in terms of infrastructure.

    True that project was under financed  but I'd presume AIP wlll be installed in Kalinas

    Loud Swedish approach?

    Sweden’s submarine force is relatively tiny, just five boats make up the entire inventory, but those five vessels are extremely stealthy and lethal, especially their three Gotland Class diesel-electric submarines. Entering service in the mid 1990s, the 1600 ton displacement Gotland Class was the first operational Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) submarines in the world, which gave them the previously unprecedented operational ability (for non-nuclear submarines at least) to stay submerged for weeks at a time.

    Oh, and Kockums’ AIP system is virtually silent, even in comparison to multi-billion dollar nuclear powered boats that still have to pump high-volumes coolant to their reactors.

    Sweden Has A Sub That's So Deadly The US Navy Hired It To Play Bad Guy and the Gotland managed to sneak in and "sink" the CV several times.

    So DONT call the swedish AIP loud!


    hoom

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  hoom on Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:12 am

    Loud Swedish approach?
    I think its a belief that the Stirling Engine is loud.
    I'm not sure it is.
    It burns fuel outside the cylinder constantly & probably very quietly, the cylinder going back & forward is going to be a source of noise but less so than an internal combustion engine since its fairly low pressure & doesn't have an explosion at one end of the cycle.
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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Fri Feb 23, 2018 1:18 pm

    hoom wrote:
    Loud Swedish approach?
    I think its a belief that the Stirling Engine is loud.
    I'm not sure it is.
    It burns fuel outside the cylinder constantly & probably very quietly, the cylinder going back & forward is going to be a source of noise but less so than an internal combustion engine since its fairly low pressure & doesn't have an explosion at one end of the cycle.
    There is no combustion with a sterling engine, it only works with pressure differentials, therefore making it noiseless.
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    Militarov

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Militarov on Fri Feb 23, 2018 2:37 pm

    Stirling engines are extremly quiet. Not sure who and where told you its loud. Very crude stirling engines built basically in highschool workshops developed 59 decibels of noise at 1m of distance. Compared to diesels that is like vacoom Very Happy
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:47 pm

    The French SSKs have MESMA AIP (DCNS models) & DRDO PAFC Fuel Cell AIP:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorp%C3%A8ne-class_submarine

    How do both compare with Stirling engines?
    The Japanese SSKs also use them, but Australia won't buy them:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C5%8Dry%C5%AB-class_submarine

    https://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/inquirer/french-barracuda-submarine-the-most-complex-artefact-in-australia/news-story/6fcfe2d0e1c5f68b17e5df4b18501a7d

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Peŕrier on Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:17 pm

    The swedish approach through the Sterling engine doesn't suffer fron noise levels.

    It's main problem is thermal dissipation, followed by chemical waste into the seawater.

    Both are minor issues, but still the fuel cells do not suffer such problems, and they are today the most discrete solution available.

    It could be worth noting that amongst MPAs is getting popular to have UV scanner, to monitor and identify pollution's spots amidst the sea.

    It could be too early to infere that an ASW patrol aircraft could spot and track down the chemical trail leaved behind by a running Sterling engine, still it could become a reality in the future, maybe a near future.

    Until a Sterling engine equipped SSK operates in friendly waters it should not be a big issue, but whenever it would be tasked to operate in contested or hostile waters, it could prove itself a weak point.

    hoom

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  hoom on Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:21 pm

    There is no combustion with a sterling engine, it only works with pressure differentials, therefore making it noiseless.
    Standard version of a stirling engine you have an external flame heating one end.
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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Feb 24, 2018 4:59 pm

    Peŕrier wrote:The swedish approach through the Sterling engine doesn't suffer fron noise levels.

    It's main problem is thermal dissipation, followed by chemical waste into the seawater.


    a) Stirling engines still have to be warmed by external source - and warming up form batteries makes no sense since you got to feed electric motors. Thus you need actual chemical heaters (you burn something - if hydrogen then it can blow)

    b) You still have moving parts in engine itself (not only electrical ones) so it is not that silent.

    c) toque / power output regulation is fairly cumbersome and sudden speeding up slowing is problematic

    last but not least

    d) did anybody see Stirling powered AIP sub working on more than 200 meters? I did some research and in case of stirling AIP for olielr they say 50-100m max, national interest 160-200 m


    For some strange reason Japanese Navy replaced Stirlings in last batch of Soryuo subs by Li-on batteries. Isnt it?


    Peŕrier wrote:
    the fuel cells do not suffer such problems, and they are today the most discrete solution available


    Hmm you need to have
    a) port infrastructure with liquid oxygen hydrogen storage

    b) you carry hydrogen on sub...




    Russian AIP is meant to be: expensive infrastructure independent (you need only to tank diesel fuel) . It has on board diesel fuel reformer . I.e. an installation to "on fly" modify diesel into hydrogen for cells. Littel risk of explosion and much cheaper if implemented. We need to wait untill it will be properly financed though.
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    Militarov

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Militarov on Sat Feb 24, 2018 5:17 pm

    Maximum depths are about 200m. Test depth for most subs using stirling engines is 150m. Pressure is the limiting factor.

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