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    Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

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    Austin
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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Austin on Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:50 am

    Vladimir79 wrote:There is no AIP installed on the St. Petersburg, it hasn't been tested. The Type 214 is so noisy they are being sent back to the drawing board.. India is executing the +3 option on Scorpenes and they don't want to spend more money and time converting to take different construction processes.

    The AIP is being bench tested for the past 2 years and they were suppose to be demonstrated to India.

    The additional Scorpenes is to tie over the short fall in submarine , cant wait for the new line to over the shortfall too soon as the new 2nd line of submarine for which Amur is a contender will only come like 5 years from now.
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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:24 am

    The RFP for 75I has yet to be issued. No bench test has been demonstrated to India.

    Mazagong docks says it is cheaper to build more French submarines and with the tight wads at FinMin, Marlin looks the winner.

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Austin on Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:56 am

    Vlad , the Indian Navy Plan is to build 24 Conventional submarine in a 30 year submarine development plan.

    The first was P-75 for which Scorpene design is selected , the plan was to build 6 of this class at Mazagoan , they screwd up badly and instead of delivery by 2012 , it has not shifted to late 2015.

    Since Indian submarine force is falling at a faster pace then they could be added , they are proposing to build 3 more over the 6 since its easier to use existing infrastructure and build the subs faster after 6 are already built.

    The other 6 will be of P-75I class for which RFI was issued and now RFP will be issued , the plan is to procure larger conventional submarine with AIP and even with VLS capability.

    The remaining 10-12 submarine was suppose to be of Indian design.

    It may sound stupid to build 2 conventional submarine of different design but Indian Navy has been operating submarine of 2 class like Kilo and T-209 currently.

    Its hard to say which submarine will win the P-75I deal but most certainly Amur is a top contender there , the other is German Type 212 and French modified Scorpene Design similar to S80 not the Marlin , the marlin was smaller then Scorpene
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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:38 pm

    There is no AIP installed on the St. Petersburg, it hasn't been tested.

    That is right, they don't have anything ready for service right now, but as mentioned in the first article:

    As of now, the St Petersburg is equipped with a classic battery, but in future, it will be replaced by ion-lithium, when latter gets available. It is expected that the Amur-1650 with ion-lithium batteries can get a two fold increase in underwater time – from 9 days currently up to 16, which is comparable to the current levels of German U-boats with AIP.

    So with new Lithium Ion batteries they can match the underwater performance of the German subs that use AIPs. When the Russian AIP is ready that will extend its underwater performance even further.

    They have already invested money in the new Li Ion batteries and AIP... just because the diesel and electric motors on the first Lada class are not performing to spec, there is no reason to trash all that work and effort and go back to upgraded Kilos... and spend a huge amount of money to start everything again from scratch.
    The sensible thing to do is what they are doing... lay down some upgraded Kilo class vessels as a stopgap, and fix the problems with the failing systems on the Lada class sub being tested. Freeze the other two hulls till the solutions are found and then finish those two hulls to the new 677M standard with the problems solved. They seem pretty sure they will have the solution next year (2013) but in the mean time upgraded Kilos are being built so there is no need to panic.

    If the problems with the new propulsion are fundamental and can never be fixed then a simple scaled down propulsion from the Kilo class could be substituted in the worst case scenario... the Lada is still smaller and has just over half the crew of a Kilo, and has better electronics and sensors and weapons.

    ...even if it is a complete export failure then it will do the job, but I rather suspect smaller vessels with smaller crews and perhaps cheaper downgraded for export systems might appeal to many countries... or the expensive and capable electronics might be even more interesting.

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Austin on Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:16 am

    New Submarines Improve Performance

    Russia’s Project 636 SSK, called Kilo in the West, set standards in the Cold War, but its designer—St. Petersburg-based CDB Rubin—is now playing catch-up after years of underinvestment. Rubin’s general director, Andrey Dyachkov, tells DTI that the company is completing bench-testing of a prototype AIP system.

    The system is a hydrogen fuel cell, as used by TKMS-HDW, but instead of operating on stored hydrogen, it relies on chemical re- formation of the sub’s diesel fuel, which eliminates special on-board tankage and hydrogen infrastructure on shore. According to Dyachkov, this technology has already been validated during AIP bench tests. “This allows us to use the standard diesel fuel and doesn’t require complex ground support” compared to the German variant, he explained.

    Rubin plans to install AIP in the Amur 1650, offered for the Indian navy’s tender for six conventional submarines. An export version of Russia’s Project 677 Lada class, Amur has a surface displacement of 1,765 metric tons, submerged speed of 19 kt. and a crew of 35. It is designed to strike both sea-based and fixed land-based targets. The 66-meter (217-ft.) boat carries six torpedo tubes and Klub-S (SS-N-27) missiles in 10 vertical launchers that can be fired in salvos. For the Indian tender it also will be equipped with Russo-Indian PJ-10 BrahMos supersonic missiles fired from the same launchers.

    The AIP can be installed in the Amur 1650 in a separate module along with the conventional diesel-electric propulsion system. Using the AIP, the sub’s endurance can increase by two or three more weeks from 45 days currently, based on a customer’s request. Continuous submerged time increases from the current nine days to 14-20 days.

    The first Project 677 boat, the St. Petersburg, is undergoing reliability testing with the Russian navy in the Baltic Sea. In 2012, it is expected to complete the testing of its sonar system, says Dyachkov. The Admiralty Shipyards in St. Petersburg are constructing two more, the Kronstadt and Sevastopol, but so far there are no funds for completing these with AIP.

    Rubin plans to further increase Amur 1650 endurance by replacing lead-acid batteries with lithium-ion (Li-Ion) batteries. The designers do not report about their progress in this field, but say that lithium-ion batteries will be able to increase the sub’s submerged endurance and distance by 50% at low noise patrol speed and threefold at full speed. Unlike the AIP, which is only compatible with the Amur, the new batteries can also be offered for Rubin’s Project 636 Kilo boats.

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    I think what ever happens they must pursue the Lada program and should not neglect it in favour of Kilo.

    Post  Austin on Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:44 am

    I think what ever happens they must pursue the Lada program and should not neglect it in favour of Kilo.

    Kilo design has been stretched to limit and 10 years from now it wont be competitive against modern Western SSK and that would greatly impinge its export prospects.

    Amur is a very modular design and the customer can opt for it based on its requirenment and needs and how deep his pockets are.

    Lithium-Ion cells are also very promising providing much improved performance over Lead-Acid Battery.

    AIP that generates Hydrogen from Diesel and does not need any Hydrogen to be carried is very very promising as it does not need expensive shore infrastructure , provides all benefit of Hydrogen based AIP which is the most effecient and provides much better safety factor.

    Not to mentions Single Hull Subs are less effort to maintain and can pack more punch with lesser tonnage having impact on Fuel ,Power and Engine.

    All in All Lada/Amur design is very promising and it will give them much more in financial and market returns in the next 30 year.

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  TR1 on Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:12 am

    Austin wrote:I think what ever happens they must pursue the Lada program and should not neglect it in favour of Kilo.

    Kilo design has been stretched to limit and 10 years from now it wont be competitive against modern Western SSK and that would greatly impinge its export prospects.

    Amur is a very modular design and the customer can opt for it based on its requirenment and needs and how deep his pockets are.

    Lithium-Ion cells are also very promising providing much improved performance over Lead-Acid Battery.

    AIP that generates Hydrogen from Diesel and does not need any Hydrogen to be carried is very very promising as it does not need expensive shore infrastructure , provides all benefit of Hydrogen based AIP which is the most effecient and provides much better safety factor.

    Not to mentions Single Hull Subs are less effort to maintain and can pack more punch with lesser tonnage having impact on Fuel ,Power and Engine.

    All in All Lada/Amur design is very promising and it will give them much more in financial and market returns in the next 30 year.


    Apparently the new Kilos are different from export ones, and draw from advancements from Lada. Lot's of new things, sonar, etc. Might lower dependance on Lada coming to fruition even more.
    No AIP, but apparently Navy isn't desperate for AIP.
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    Lada/Amur Submarine

    Post  GarryB on Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:32 am

    The situation is subject to the law of diminished returns.

    They could put the new batteries and the new sonar system, and new propulsion from the Lada class into the improved Kilo class, but to reap the full advantage of all the new technology it makes sense to go with a new from scratch design.

    It is a bit like the situation with the Flankers.

    You can put all the stuff you develop for the PAK FA into the Su-27 airframe, but at the end of the day it will never actually be a 5th gen stealth aircraft because some things need to be included in the design from scratch to take full advantage of them.

    The Lada class is smaller and quieter than the Kilo, so while putting the better sensors and equipment into the Kilos will certainly improve performance, it wont be as good in the end as a Lada class with the same stuff in it.

    While there is a delay for both the PAK FA and Lada class vessels it makes sense to apply the new stuff to existing platforms (Su-35S and Improved Kilo 636.3) but this is not a replacement for the new kit.

    It gives the new stuff operational experience, it enhances commonality between existing equipment and the next gen stuff that is soon to appear into service. It reduces variation amongst vessels in service and at the same time increases the performance of existing material.

    Most subs will go through several upgrades and refits during their operational lives and the better the commonality between them the easier things are to use and to support them.

    The whole purpose of AIP is to extend the time a diesel electric sub can operate between using its diesel engines to generate power to top up the batteries.
    They are actually not cheap, so if you can get the same performance just using better battery technology then the choice is pretty clear.

    Remember these are coastal subs... they don't need to operate entirely submerged for months at a time... these subs wont be creeping into NATO ports to spy, they will be looking for foreign SSNs trying to sneak into Russian ports or safe areas for Russian SSBNs.
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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Russian Patriot on Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:59 am

    Russian Navy to Drop Lada Class Subs � CinC Vysotsky

    RIA Novosti

    09:08 09/02/2012 MOSCOW, February 9 (RIA Novosti) - The Russian Navy has decided against construction of Lada class submarines (Project 677) and will instead modernize its existing boats, Navy Commander-in-Chief Adm. Vladimir Vysotsky said in an interview with RIA Novosti.

    The design of the diesel-electric Lada class was completed at the end of the 1990s, but none of the planned boats have entered service, although the lead ship in the class, the Saint Petersburg, is undergoing trials with the Baltic Fleet, Vysotsky said.

    “The Russian Navy does not need the Lada in its current form,” he said.

    Vysotsky also said the first the non-nuclear Russian submarine with anaerobic propulsion may begin trials in 2014.

    Currently all of Russia’s submarines are either nuclear or diesel-electric powered.

    “It is entirely possible we will receive a test version of an air-independent power plant in the next few years. On boats of the Lada class, two of which are already laid down. Trials may begin in 2014. That is absolutely realistic,” he said.

    In addition, all of Russia’s active strategic submarines will be armed with Liner ballistic missiles, an advanced version of the Sineva missile, Vysotsky said.

    “For now only those on combat patrol in the Pacific Ocean are equipped with them. But in future all our active strategic submarines - Delfin and Kalmar (Delta III and Delta IV) - will be armed with these missiles,” he said.

    Construction of a new aircraft carrier will begin before 2020, Vysotsky said.

    “Actual construction of the ship will begin before 2020 and will be completed after 2020. The design of the new carrier complex will be determined in the course of two years, by 2014,” he said.

    The Admiral Kuznetsov is currently the Russian Navy’s only active aircraft carrier.

    Vysotsky confirmed that the Bulava ballistic missile and the strategic nuclear submarine Yury Dolgoruky would enter service simultaneously this year.

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/russia/2012/russia-120209-rianovosti05.htm
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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  GarryB on Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:35 am

    This report is contradictory.

    It states in the title that the Russian navy will not accept Lada class subs... note the S on the end of subs?

    There is only one Lada class sub they are rejecting and that is the first sub of the new class, and they admit that it will be used for testing so it will not be scrapped.

    Later in the piece they mention AIP developments and how they will be applied to the two Lada class subs already laid down that will be tested in 2014.

    Now if the Lada class is cancelled why bother completing two Lada class subs to test AIP?

    The facts of the matter are that the Lada sub design is not new, but was very ambitious... it was a conventional sub that was to hunt SSNs, which meant it had to be very quiet and have a very powerful sonar set and efficient and powerful propulsion.

    The one Lada class sub completed has been tested in shallow water and it was found to have problems with propulsion not being as powerful as was anticipated.

    Because of this however it will not enter Russian Navy service but its powerful sonar will be tested in deep water and the sub will be used for testing other vessels, which means operational subs wont be needed to do that job.

    The problems found on the first Lada sub are being corrected and if this article is to be believed they will also test a brand new AIP design they have developed themselves.

    The two Lada class subs laid down have not been worked on and once solutions are found and a new upgrade design for Lada-M or project 677M has been finalised it will be applied to the two hulls laid down so they can enter testing and then Russian Navy service.

    The competition from German Type 214 subs also had initial problems and these problems were fixed while the subs were operational with foreign customers. The Russian AIP sounds safer and much cheaper in terms of support infrastructure. More importantly together with gains in performance with Lithium Ion batteries replacing lead acid batteries the Russian vessels will vastly out perform foreign equivalents.

    The improved Kilos are a stopgap measure till the Lada-M is ready for serial production...
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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  runaway on Fri Feb 10, 2012 8:13 am


    Switched forum,

    "(

    Clearly the Navy has another opinion.


    Look at what it says...


    The Russian Navy has decided against construction of Lada class submarines (Project 677) and will instead modernize its existing boats, Navy Commander-in-Chief Adm. Vladimir Vysotsky said in an interview with RIA Novosti.


    So it is not going to produce Project 677 class subs.

    The makers of the subs have also said as much.

    They said that the two other vessels laid down already will be upgraded and completed as Project 677M.

    SO it is a case of Lada is dead long live Lada-M.

    He then says:


    On boats of the Lada class, two of which are already laid down. Trials may begin in 2014. That is absolutely realistic,” he said.


    In other words the lead ship of the lada class is an old design from the 1990s and has not met expectations and will not be serially produced.
    The two other Lada class subs however will be completed based on the experience and solutions developed for the Lada class and will start testing in 2014... as Project 677M class vessels and likely will be accepted into Russian service alongside the upgraded Kilos they are also making to fill the gap.

    The first Lada vessel itself will be kept for use as a testing sub because the sonar it is fitted with is a very capable set that is normally fitted to much larger and more powerful SSNs rather than SSKs.

    It means it can be used to test things without taking an active sub out of service to test something.


    Interview with Navy Chief Adm. Vladimir Vysotsky


    Interesting... in this interview he seems to have discounted the original Lada because its diesel electric propulsion is WWII era stuff... ie diesel electric.

    He seems to suggest that the remaining two Ladas will be completed with AIP and a new propulsion system.")



    Well, nothing new really, the 677M will be completed in 2014 and be ready for testing with its new propulsion. This is good news, and suggest that further hulls can be laid down, as there is nothing faulty with the design as such.
    And there is nothing that says the 636.3 cant be upgraded with the new propulsion, its easy to just add a section if there aint room.



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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Austin on Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:42 pm

    Garry there is no confusion , he simply says the first of class 677 Lada does not meet the needs and it falls short of propulsion power .......he wants the existing 677 two of which is laid to have AIP propulsion and sort the issue with first lada.
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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  GarryB on Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:18 pm

    The article title says the Lada class is cancelled.

    It does not say the first Lada Class did not meet performance expectations and lessons and solutions to rectify performance will be applied to the two laid down Lada class subs, which will be called Lada M class Project 677M subs that will likely commence construction in 2013 and enter service after being tested.

    I think it is poor reporting.

    It is trying to be attention grabbing by misleading the reader into think the new Russian conventional sub design is a complete failure and a dead end.

    It is dishonest sensationalism...

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Austin on Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:58 am

    Russian non-nuclear submarine could win a tender in India - source

    The submarine "Amur-1650" with air-independent propulsion system (VNEU), along with submarines, "Scorpio" (France), Type-214 (Germany), S-80 (Spain) involved the Indian tender for the purchase of six submarines for the Navy national general worth 11.8 billion dollars. The contest was announced in September 2011.

    "Russian submarine of Project 677E" Amur-1650 "has a good chance to win the tender because of their unique characteristics, including the time spent under water by promising AIP - more than 25 days, as well as long-range detection of underwater targets "- the spokesman said.

    In this regard, he recalled that the time spent underwater submarines of the Russian foreign counterparts is 15-20 days.

    "Our submarine will also be able to compete with foreign counterparts on cost parameters," - said the source, noting, for example, that the price of "Scorpio" is approximately $ 500 million. At the same time, he did not name the exact price of the Russian submarine.

    Earlier, Chief Naval Fleet, Admiral Vladimir Vysotsky, told RIA Novosti that the first Russian non-nuclear submarine with AIP can be created in 2014 by Project 677. Now at the "Admiralty Shipyards" laid two submarines of this project, which will be installed AIP. . The development goes faster pace VNEU specialists of the central design bureau (CDB), "Rubin."

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Austin on Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:08 am

    The new AIP under development using diesel to get Hydrogen is quite promising , considering you dont have to carry hydrogen on board plus you dont need specialised shore based infra for it.

    The submerged endurance of ~ 25 days with new AIP is also quite good , considering the Kilos without AIP cannot do a submerged endurance of more than 8 days , so the AIP increases under water endurance by atleast 3 times.

    I do not know if the 15-20 days submerged endurance of foreign AIP is true or is a marketing talk by Rubin will find out more, but from what i had read in Naval Forces for German Fuel Cell AIP using Hydrogen as fuel it needs to be maintained at a purity rate of atleast 99 % and the shore infra to maintain such a purity level is not only expensive but also difficult to maintain hence limited at few places.
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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  GarryB on Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:36 am

    Wasn't there an article posted that listed the AIP underwater time for the German sub as being 14-15 days running at 3KNTs?

    The design was supposed to do 4 Knts but everyone seems to be having problems reaching the estimated goals for the new propulsion systems.

    In that same article it mentioned the improved Kilo could match that 14-15 days at 4knts with a change of batteries to Li Ion types.

    The Lada was designed from the start to be a short range SSN hunter and has an exceptional Sonar set fitted.

    They have finished testing it in the shallow waters of the Baltic and are moving it to the Northern Fleet to test it in deep water. Unfortunately some sources seem to interpret such very normal things as being evidence of problems with the sonar... Rolling Eyes

    The fact is that it is a brand new submarine design and the only way to test everything was to built a full scale version and test it. That is what they have been doing and with the information they have collected from the testing they will apply solutions and changes to get the required performance from the next vessels in the series that they are calling Project 677M Lada-M.

    Claims they are starting from scratch are just that... claims.

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Austin on Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:18 am

    I read Rubin Designer Interview who was responsible for Lada design , he said the noise level achieved was 1/10 of Kilo Shocked

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Austin on Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:19 am

    Air Independent Propulsion Systems for Submarines

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Austin on Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:53 pm

    Commander: Russian Navy does not waive the procurement of submarines of "Lada"

    "I put it sharply on the first ship" St. Petersburg "and not about" Lada "in general" - said Vysotsky.

    It (this ship), the main problem - the power plant. Now we have already demonstrated a working model of an anaerobic (airindependent) units with access to a decent power. Of course, there are many questions still need to refine. But basically, we expect to get a working model" - he said.

    The admiral said that the bench test this unit "show encouraging results."

    "After the elimination of these shortcomings can turn out a good project. We are very clear where to go," - said Vysotsky.
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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  GarryB on Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:19 am

    "I put it sharply on the first ship" St. Petersburg "and not about" Lada "in general" - said Vysotsky.

    In other words he is saying when he said they would not order Lada he meant the first ship, not the entire class.

    "After the elimination of these shortcomings can turn out a good project. We are very clear where to go," - said Vysotsky.

    In other words, the first full scale prototype of the Lada class had problems, and we have now examined those problems and will apply the solutions to the remaining vessels of the class which will be good subs worth the Russian Navy buying.
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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Russian Patriot on Tue Mar 27, 2012 6:23 pm




    Moscow May Help India Build Closed-Cycle Submarines
    Topic: Russia-India partnership








    Russia has offered help India build air-independent (closed cycle) propulsion systems for installation in Amur 1650 class submarines and also to equip future possible joint Indian-Russian built vessels, Viktor Komardin, the deputy head of Rosoboronexport's delegation said at the Defexpo Indian defense show on Tuesday.

    The Amur 1650 is one of several contenders, including the Scorpene (France), Type 214 (Germany) and S-80 (Spain) in a tender for the Indian Navy for six subamrines with a total value of $11.8 billion.

    "Russia is currently completing tests of a new air-indepedent propulsion system, which could be installed not only on the Amur 1650 but on jointly developed boats," Komardin said. "This is a critical factor for the Indians. So our chances here are good," he added.

    Rosoboronexport, Russia's defense sales holding, has already offered India its Amur 1650 boat, which started trials with the Russian navy in 2010. The Amur has an armament of multirole torpedos and Klub anti-ship missiles, and can also strike land-targets with advanced cruise missiles, which may include the India-Russian Brahmos. "These missiles which the Indians want can only be supplied by Russia," Komardin said.

    The Amur 1650 has a good chance of winning the tender, Komardin claimed, thanks to its ability to remain submerged for over 25 days using its air-independent propulsion, and also its long-range weaponry. Similar foreign boats can only stay submerged for 15-20 days.

    Russia is currently evaluating the Lada class air-independent submarine, a derivative of the Amur 1650. In 2010 the Lada class submarine St Petersburg entered service with the Russian Fleet.

    The Russian Fleet Commander Admiral Vladimir Vysotsky told RIA Novosti previously that the first Russian air-independent boat, based on a similar design, the Projet 677 class, could enter service in 2014. Two such hulls are currently under construction at the Admiralteiskie Verfi shipyard in St Petersburg, which could be fitted with a closed-cycle propulsion system.

    An air-independent propulsion system is currently being rapidly developed by specialists from the Rubin submarine design bureau.

    Air-independent submarines, usually using hydrogen-orygen fuel cells, are quieter than conventional diesel-electric boats, and do not have to surface or use snorkel tubes to breathe air, which makes them vulnerable to detection by radar and other sensors.

    http://www.en.ria.ru/mlitary_news/20120327/172413803.html
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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  GarryB on Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:57 am

    Well this of course begs the question... how many non Russian subs do the Indian Navy currently operate, and do they want to cooperate with Russia and risk a Russian monopoly with their naval acquisition?

    If the Indians agree the concept of using diesel fuel with a fuel cell will have many applications... think of all the places you can buy diesel now... the infrastructure is already in place, so a fuel cell car or truck or bus that uses this sort of technology can use the existing infrastructure.

    Airships that use efficient diesel engines and readily create hydrogen when more lift is needed... or water ballast can be created along with electricity...

    Mixed power vehicles are one option too where a UAV can run an efficient diesel engine to drive a propeller to a target area where it can switch to fuel cell technology on an electric motor for stealth mode operations at low levels with almost no noise at night or in bad weather...

    You could have a small diesel generator together with the fuel cell and batteries and a large fuel tank filled with Diesel in a truck or bus. On a cold day you might want to generate some heat by running the diesel engine for a few minutes, or use both for extra power to get up hills.

    Batteries are heavy so a small diesel engine could save a lot of weight by reducing the number of batteries you carry.
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    George1
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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  George1 on Fri Jul 27, 2012 12:34 pm

    Russia to Resume Construction of Diesel Subs

    Russia will resume series production of non-nuclear Project 677 Lada-class submarines, Navy chief Vice Adm. Viktor Chirkov said on Friday.

    Construction of two Lada-class subs, the Sevastopol and the Kronshtadt, was frozen because of the project’s purported inefficiency.

    Chirkov said the technical project has been adjusted and construction of the two subs will resume shortly.

    The "fourth generation" diesel-electric submarine features quieter, new combat systems and air-independent propulsion.

    http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20120727/174805860.html

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Austin on Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:42 pm

    One of the oldest inverview on 636 and 677 class submarine by Rubin Chief but always an interesting one.

    Interview with Yury Nikolaevich Kormilitsyn, General Designer of Central Design Bureau of Marine Transport "Rubin"

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Austin on Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:57 pm

    Ship-Shape Submarines

    Russia is ready for Project 75(I) competition
    By Vladimir ‘Vovick’ Karnozov
    FORCE September 2012

    Moscow: India continues to buy a lot from overseas weapon manufacturers, but in the past few years, the focus has been shifting to license production and technology offsets. The process of selecting a specimen, which can be copied locally, is now more guarded. In such a situation, it is best for collaborators to have their products ordered by the armed forces of their home country.

    Seen from this perspective, chances of the Central Design Bureau for Marine Engineering ‘Rubin’ and its industrial partners have gone up, especially, after the Russian ministry of defence ordered quantity production of Project

    955/A nuclear-powered underwater cruisers, and Project 636.3 and Project 677 diesel-electric submarines. Export version of the Project 677, the Amur 1650, is on offer in India in the ongoing Project 75(I) competition for six units. This summer saw two more Rubin-designed ships become a reality. On 30 July 2012 Russia’s President Vladimir Putin travelled to Severodvinsk to lay down the foundation of Duke Vladimir (named after the Kievan Rus ruler whose reign extended from 978 to 1015 AD) – the first in the series of five Project 955A underwater cruisers, coming after three Project 955s which have already been built. On August 17, Russian navy commander Admiral Victor Chirkov led a similar ceremony in St. Petersburg for the Old Oskol, a third in the series of six Project 636.3 diesel-electric submarines for the Black Sea Fleet.

    Speaking to the media on these occasions, both Putin and Chirkov promised more orders for local shipbuilders. Putin said that 4.44 trillion roubles will be spent on construction of new ships for the Russian navy’s “multi-purpose groupings of general use”, adding that one-third of that sum will be provided in the next five years. Another important statement made by Putin on July 30 was: “By 2020, the navy will take delivery of 51 surface combatant and 16 multi-purpose submarines.”

    According to the Armament Program 2011-2020, during the next eight years, the Russian Navy shall receive eight Project 955/A strategic underwater cruisers; eight Project 885 fast-attack submarines; 15 frigates and 35 corvettes. This will boost the share of modern equipment in the navy’s arsenal to 30 per cent by 2016 and further to 70 per cent by 2020. Putin stressed the need to equip new ships with modern long range rocketry. “It is exactly the weaponry that always determined power and worthiness of combat ships in wartime,” he said.

    Priorities of the Russian Navy

    Chirkov stated that the naval ship-building programme 2011-2020 “will be materialized completely.” In particular, the navy expects 14-20 non-nuclear submarines, most of which will be from the stable of Project 636.3 and 677. The admiral said, “We will go forward without changing earlier decisions. Instead, we will work so as to unify ships of various types and upgrade them as necessary so as to achieve a greater degree of cross-type unification, and ensure the newly launched ships carry state-of-the-art weaponry.”

    Three years ago, the Russian Navy placed order for six Project 636.3 submarines. First of them, the Novorossiysk, was laid down at the Admiralty Shipyards in St. Petersburg in August 2010 (commissioning expected in late 2013) and the second, the Rostov-upon-Don, in November 2011. They have standard displacement of 2,350 t, underwater speed up to 20 knots, endurance of 45 days and compliment of 52.

    Compared to Project 877 and ships which are already in service of the Russian Navy such as the exportable Project 877EKM and Project 636, the new Project 636.3 “is more stealthy, with new acoustics systems and means of communications. Besides, she has a higher degree of automation and newer weaponry. The new submarine is highly capable, and can stay in service for a few dozen years. The most important thing for us about these submarines is that with them the navy can go into the next decade with state-of-the-art technologies and capabilities.” Chirkov added that the Project 636.3 has no equal among western diesel-electric submarines simply because the Russian design has a much more powerful missile system.

    With Project 636.3, Chirkov also noticed an improved comfort of the crew. “She has a good mess room, and fairly good living quarters – all this provides a sufficient level of comfort to enable the crews to carry out their tasks not only in coastal defense, but also on an a blue-water mission.”

    The Admiralty Shipyards holds contracts for construction of over 12 diesel electric submarines (including six Project 636.1 for Vietnam and six Project 636.3 for the Russian navy). Of these eight are being built.

    In the meantime, construction of the Project 677 series had been temporarily frozen after completion of the head vessel (the Saint Petersburg) and putting her into the Russian navy register in May 2010. The reason behind putting this programme on hold was to allow sufficient time for the navy to test the head vessel at sea, and the industry to allocate and fix potential design flaws.

    In July 2012, the MoD resumed funding for completion of two earlier-started hulls, the Kronstadt and the Sebastopol. These will be completed with minor changes to the baseline design. “Our (future) plans are based on the assumption that within two years all remaining issues pertaining to (indigenous) AIP (Air Independent Propulsion) will be resolved; we are planning to put the new propulsion system on the third and fourth hulls (of the Project 677),” said Chirkov.

    The Russian Navy no longer suffers from problems that affected it several years ago. “We notice a higher degree of interest among young people in joining the navy. This results in more applicants going to the military schools and institutes, and a tougher competition to pass exams and get accepted. Besides, those who serve on submarines of the Northern Fleet and those based on the Kamchatka peninsula are on a contract (not conscripts). This proves that the importance of the navy has gone up in the eyes of the public,” said Chirkov.

    Rubin’s New Leader


    The popularity of navy is good news for Central Design Bureau for Marine Engineering ‘Rubin’. Speaking to FORCE, Igor Vilnit, who took over as general director in March 2012 from Andrei Diachkov, said, “Rubin will continue to work closely with Sevmash Shipyards in Severodvinsk, which builds Rubin-designed strategic underwater cruisers. “There is a big ship-building programme in place, giving both enterprises a high workload. This requires making right decisions on time regarding submarine development and construction so that governmental orders are completed in the shortest time possible and at the lowest expense.”

    Vilnit joined Rubin in 1979 and since then has been involved in many military and civilian programmes of the company. When asked about his priorities as the new head of Rubin, he said the main one was to fulfill, efficiently and on time, the governmental orders for submarines. “There is a huge amount of work to be done. In some cases, it requires innovative approaches. Managing development and assembly of specimens for series production is a challenging task, particularly in the present environment of a market-driven economy and the post-crisis conditions.”

    Rubin holds governmental contracts for development of nuclear-powered, diesel-electric submarines and special equipment. Besides, Rubin is working on civil programmes and will expand this activity.

    Military technical co-operation with foreign countries is another area that Rubin has been involved in. “Bidding in international tenders, like those in India, gives a good chance to compete face-to-face with European rivals. It is a strong stimulus for further development and improvement,” says Vilnit. While the Russian ship-building industry now enjoys big contracts from the Kremlin, winning a foreign order brings in more money and bigger workload.

    Another important priority for Vilnit is to improve Rubin’s team and take timely measures for its support and development. He believes in worthiness of special “social programmes” (complimentary to salaries and wages), from which the company’s employees can benefit, and also the company itself, as such programmes result in a better teamwork and mutual understanding among the employees. The team, he says, is well balanced in terms of skills and age. “It has some long-standing specialists and some young university graduates. Although we have always had people seeking a job at Rubin, nonetheless, we feel a shortage of middle-aged specialists. During the times of Perestroika, less people sought jobs in the defence industry. Rubin, like many other defence enterprises, was less attractive for ambitious university graduates.”

    That said, Vilnit insists that the cadre problem is no longer acute for Rubin. “We have enough representatives of the younger generation who have amassed sufficient skills and knowledge through participation in the Project 955 and other projects, including development phase and construction of head vessels. And this secures the future for our enterprise.”

    Tech-Savvy


    Rubin continues to master computer-aided design technologies. Although the process started 20 years ago, it was a big challenge, and still is. On certain projects the entire documentation package issued by Rubin is completely computerized. “These technologies are not new to us, but we are still mastering and perfecting them.” One of the challenges is to provide ‘a completely digital’ documentation package covering design and development of a vessel, manufacturing, delivery to the customer and a developer’s and manufacturer’s support throughout. This necessitates application of CAD/CAM/CAE, lean manufacturing and logistic support.

    The Rubin team has tried many innovative technologies on maritime platforms, a purely civilian activity being developed in addition to the core business. The company started working on it in early 1990s, when military orders ran low. Although the situation has changed, Rubin is not going to give it up. “We started this activity 20 years ago, and have achieved considerable results. Good relations have been established with customers for maritime platforms, as well as overseas and local suppliers of major components. Today, Rubin is the leading company on maritime platforms in Russia,” says Vilnit.

    Platforms are a very complex sea objects. “It is very hard to find your niche in a highly competitive environment, and easy to lose it. To stay competitive, you must improve all the time; the market-driven economy requires you to make efforts. It is as though the market is always asking you same old question, ‘are you going to give up’? Rubin shall never give up!” asserts Vilnit.

    The company has developed a number of various platforms, and is now shaping one for rotorcraft operations. The work goes under respective contracts from RAO Gazprom fossil fuel giant and is in the course of Russian government’s federal programes for development of advanced civil technologies. The platforms in question may have different applications. For instance, they can facilitate transportation of workers to and from drilling platforms or oil rigs in the open sea. Rubin is also developing a platform with helicopter deck measuring 100x100 metres, which will be able to serve several helicopters at a time and withstand engine-out landings.

    Next Generation


    As of 2012, the Russian ship-building industry has brought out a fourth generation of submarines (long after after World War II). The line is formed by the Project 955/A strategic underwater cruiser, Project 885 fast-attack and the Project 677 diesel-electric submarines. Lead vessels of all the three classes have been built; now they will undergo sea trials.

    So, what comes next? Will Russia work on the fifth generation submarine? Vilnit’s answer is in the affirmative. He notes that the life cycle of a concurrent submarine is normally over 50 years, starting from research and development, and going all the way through construction, operational service and withdrawal of last ship in a series. “In our industry, life cycles are very long, and therefore, from the start we have to think properly of a new design.”

    The process of conceiving a next generation warship must be an unbroken chain of small steps forward. Formulating requirements and putting together specification for a next generation warship is “a constant, ever-going process”. It starts with collection and thorough analysis of comments and reports on in-service ships of the current generation, especially lead vessels in a series. “Following this approach, we have been collecting and analyzing data coming from the head ships which belong to the fourth generation, in order to formulate requirements and specifications for the fifth generation,” says Vilnit.

    In Russia this work (perfecting components) is being done not only at Rubin and other design houses, shipyards and their vendors, but also by dedicated MoD establishments. In co-operation with the industry and scientific institutes, the MoD runs various R&D programmes aimed at shaping the next generation. This persistent effort helps ship designers create a futuristic image of a ship. “Our design house is always in search of new, advanced solutions. Our industrial partners and vendors are companies specializing in acoustics, radio electronics and weaponry”.

    On being asked whether this rather new idea of making silos (vertical launchers) on submarines which are able to fire both ballistic and cruise missiles, will have applications on future submarines of the Russian navy, Vilnit said that weaponry is the main thing about strategic underwater cruisers. Any new quality that the human brain works out must be tried by the designers. Their goal is to blend this new quality into design of the ship so as to ensure that during crisis such as wartime, the strategic cruiser will be able to accomplish her mission effectively. Rubin team works “tirelessly and without breaks” on making its submarines more efficient and combat-capable.

    Unification of weapons systems is a trend in modern ship-building. “We have been following this trend,” says Vilnit. In technical terms, unification has some firm footing. “Having understood this, we also need to understand that any given missile cannot be launched from any given silo, not without some preparatory work.” Unification between launch systems is possible through a number of design solutions applicable to various missile types. Unification of components is a direction that Russian submarine designers have been paying attention to.

    The former Soviet Union, and now Russia, have produced a number of titanium-hulled submarines. Today, most of Russian titanium output goes to aircraft manufacturers, notably Boeing and Airbus. Do Russian metallurgists produce high-quality titanium in sufficient numbers for the ship-building industry to continue building such ships?

    Rubin uses titanium in submarine’s structures. As a construction material, titanium features some very special qualities — it is strong and yet lighter than steel. This metal is harder to work with, and requires welding to be conducted in an artificial atmosphere whereas steel can be welded in the open. Making a submarine involves a lot of welding. Using titanium instead of steel makes the submarine more expensive but gives better performance. “The key question is to reduce manufacturing expenses. This can be achieved through advanced technologies applicable to structures made of titanium,” says Vilnit.

    Rubin was responsible for development of the Project 685 deep-water fast-attack submarine. One such vessel, the K-278 Komsomolets, was built at Sevmash and served with the Soviet navy from 1984-’89. Having spent 450 days at sea, she demonstrated her ability to operate at a depth of 1,000 metres and more. “Rubin continues to work on the theme of titanium application in ship-building. We seek for new solutions that would be implemented in future ship designs. This is because the titanium has some good qualities that would give our future ships some advantage,” says Vilnit.

    The Russian metallurgists are ready to supply titanium to local ship-builders in quantities sufficient to make submarines. “We meet regularly and talk,” said Vilnit, cautioning that one should not generalise and keep in mind that titanium alloys for aviation and those for shipbuilding are ‘world apart in their qualities’.

    Diesel-Electric Submarines

    Major demand for Russian diesel-electric submarines helped the Admiralty Shipyards to streamline their production. So far, 55 Rubin-designed Kilo-class submarines (Project 877/E/EKM/636) have been completed, and more are under construction. Normally, construction cycle for a Project 636 is three years.

    In addition to 23 Kilo-class ships built for the Soviet navy, the local customer has recently placed order for six more, in customized version Project 636.3. This improved design has incorporated many innovations, some of which have been tried on exportable examples built for China, Algeria and Vietnam. Besides, the navy ordered a considerable number of new or improved onboard systems. The main reason behind the Russian navy’s decision to order six Project 636.3 ships was the high reliability of the baseline submarine. That apart, it has low acquisition costs and requires little maintenance.

    These factors may influence certain overseas customers, including India, to decide in favour of buying an additional quantity of improved Project 636 hulls. This may provide a worthwhile ‘stop-gap’ solution before next generation submarines become available in sufficient numbers.

    The Project 677 and its export derivative Amur 1650 are meant to supersede the Kilo class. Alexander Arsentiev leads this work in the capacity of chief designer; he reports to Igor Molchanov, recently appointed the head of Rubin’s Diesel-electric group.

    Vilnit is thankful to Admiral Chirkov for his strong support to the Project 677. First, he approved of the improved design which takes account of sea testing already made on the head vessel. Second, the Admiral has made important statements recently about the Russian navy resuming funding for construction of series hulls. After these statements were made, “certain overseas customers approached us again,” said Vilnit. Today, Rosoboronexport and the Federal Service for Military Technical Cooperation along with foreign countries are interacting with these customers.

    Meanwhile, lead vessel, the Saint Petersburg, continues her sea trials so that design flaws and manufacturing deficiencies, if any, can be discovered on time and fixed before series production begins. “Any new piece of advanced machinery requires careful attention in the beginning,” says Vilnit. At the time we spoke, the Saint Petersburg was at Baltic Fleet base in Baltyisk, undergoing preparations to depart for the Arctic waters where additional testing in oceanic environment shall take place.

    Vilnit told FORCE that the Admiralty Shipyards resumed work on the Kronstadt and the Sebastopol. “They will be completed according to the improved design already available from Rubin.”

    The Amur 1650 is on offer in India with AIP based on fuel cells and electrochemical generator employing reformation of diesel fuel to produce hydrogen. “Adding an AIP results in longer duration of underwater patrol. From a builder’s perspective, this requires relatively short amount of additional work to be done on a submarine, as an additional section (containing AIP) is inserted into her hull.” Vilnit says that both versions, the baseline with no AIP and the newer one with it, are on offer. “We will keep both versions on offer, to give our customers a choice. Difference in performance comes at a price.”

    Rubin continues working on the Ion-Lithium battery for submarine applications. Such batteries are already used widely on the consumer market, but are not yet ready for naval service. Manufacturers are yet to achieve certain parameters — including electric capacity and specified parameters of the electrical current in discharge mode. The Ion-Lithium battery promises an increase in time of underwater low-speed patrol by 50 per cent, and in duration of full speed underwater cruise by three times.

    The Russian Navy commander has recently confirmed his interest in speeding up this work and promised more funds to complete it. Rubin specialists have made “good progress recently”. Vilnit adds, “We already have a full scale specimen of such a battery. I believe that in less than two years we can get our Ion-Lithium battery installed on a submarine and be ready for mass production.”

    The Indian Connection


    One of the success stories of Indo-Russian co-operation is building 10 Project 877EKM submarines for the Indian navy (Sindhughost class) and then keeping them up-to-date and seaworthy. Last in this series, the S65 Sindhushastra, was built as per an improved design, with the Club-S missile system (at that time even the Russian navy did not have it).

    Starting in 2000, two Indian submarines underwent modernisation at the Admiralty Shipyards and four at Zvezdochka in Severodvinsk, during which they were equipped with the Club-S. In June 2012, the last of the submarines to be upgraded in Russia, the S63 Sindurakshak, was launched on water after repairs. She is due to rejoin the Indian Navy by the year-end. Three more Sindhughost class submarines are planned to undergo modernisation at Visakhapatnam under the supervision of Rubin and Zvezdochka advisors.

    Russia is offering a second refit and modernisation programme. It can add from five-seven to 10 years of lifetime to these ageing submarines. The INS Vargi of Rubin’s Project 641 served for 36 years until being finally de-commissioned in 2011. Should the Indian side accept this offer, it may prove a timely and cost-effective measure to bridge the gap until induction of next generation submarines.

    Defense procurement procedures require collaborators from foreign countries to work closely with the domestic manufacturers through massive offset programmes. In the case of Project 75(I), offset is said to be over 30 per cent of contract value. Meeting this requirement is quite a challenge. And yet, the Russian bidder — the Amur 1650 is officially offered by Rosoboronexport state arms vendor — is optimistic about it.

    Vilnit is also optimistic. “I believe we can make it. We have been talking to both government organisations and privately-held companies so that we can use Indian-made components. As far as Rubin is concerned, we can also offer something in offset to our Indian partners. India is interested in latest technologies in design and development of modern naval and maritime equipment. We can offer something in this sphere,” he says.

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