Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class submarine

2nd Lada class submarine KRONSHTADT will be launched during 2018.

http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/4324435

Buzakov also noted that the test of the air-independent power plant will not be conducted on the submarines "Kronstadt" and "Velikie Luki", as well as on the next two ships. "They will definitely be without VNEU, maybe it will be tested at some of the subsequent ships of this project," he added.

I don't get it. I thought that air-independent propulsion was main selling point of these Lada subs.

If they are not getting AIP then what is their advantage over Kilo class? Genuinely asking.

Wouldn't it make more sense to build more Kilos then?

And speaking of Kilos, how good really are they when compared to AIP subs? I know they call them Black Holes but how deserved is that name?

The project 677 submarines are more efficient than the Kilos. They are smaller and need a smaller crew. At the same time they have better sensors (sonars etc,), can go a bit faster etc. etc.

And yes, the Kilos are some of the quietest submarines in service today.

I get it, thanks!!! 

So it would mean that that massive delay in design and testing phase was due to problems with something other than propulsion?

Also now that they are ordering Ladas I assume that problems are ironed out and that they will become go-to platform for non nuclear subs like Kilo is now?

Edit: I checked complement on wiki and it says that it's down to 34 from 52 on Kilo, this is pretty damn good, great in fact!

PapaDragon wrote:

Buzakov also noted that the test of the air-independent power plant will not be conducted on the submarines "Kronstadt" and "Velikie Luki", as well as on the next two ships. "They will definitely be without VNEU, maybe it will be tested at some of the subsequent ships of this project," he added.

I don't get it. I thought that air-independent propulsion was main selling point of these Lada subs.

If they are not getting AIP then what is their advantage over Kilo class? Genuinely asking.

Wouldn't it make more sense to build more Kilos then?

And speaking of Kilos, how good really are they when compared to AIP subs? I know they call them Black Holes but how deserved is that name?

I personally dont think they should start with Ladas untill AIP is ready, beats the point. Rather build 2 more Kilos till Ladas together with AIP are available.

Militarov wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:

Buzakov also noted that the test of the air-independent power plant will not be conducted on the submarines "Kronstadt" and "Velikie Luki", as well as on the next two ships. "They will definitely be without VNEU, maybe it will be tested at some of the subsequent ships of this project," he added.

I don't get it. I thought that air-independent propulsion was main selling point of these Lada subs.

If they are not getting AIP then what is their advantage over Kilo class? Genuinely asking.

Wouldn't it make more sense to build more Kilos then?

And speaking of Kilos, how good really are they when compared to AIP subs? I know they call them Black Holes but how deserved is that name?

I personally dont think they should start with Ladas untill AIP is ready, beats the point. Rather build 2 more Kilos till Ladas together with AIP are available.

Well IF they are that much superior AND IF they can be built at similar speed THEN it would make sense

Otherwise you are right, they should stick with Kilos for a while more

PapaDragon wrote:

Militarov wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:

Buzakov also noted that the test of the air-independent power plant will not be conducted on the submarines "Kronstadt" and "Velikie Luki", as well as on the next two ships. "They will definitely be without VNEU, maybe it will be tested at some of the subsequent ships of this project," he added.

I don't get it. I thought that air-independent propulsion was main selling point of these Lada subs.

If they are not getting AIP then what is their advantage over Kilo class? Genuinely asking.

Wouldn't it make more sense to build more Kilos then?

And speaking of Kilos, how good really are they when compared to AIP subs? I know they call them Black Holes but how deserved is that name?

I personally dont think they should start with Ladas untill AIP is ready, beats the point. Rather build 2 more Kilos till Ladas together with AIP are available.

Well IF they are that much superior AND IF they can be built at similar speed THEN it would make sense

Otherwise you are right, they should stick with Kilos for a while more

Majority of that equipment can be retrofitted to Kilos, so still, rather build Kilo revision till Lada comes in full configuration.

Just my personal opinion tho, ofc.

Project 677 lead Lada-class submarine St. Petersburg passed all Russian Navy tests

The Project 677 Lada-class lead diesel-electric submarine (SSK) B-585 Saint Petersburg has passed all the main types of tests and substantiated its design characteristics. Thus, favorable conditions have been created for the domestic industry to receive additional orders from Russia’s Ministry of Defense for ships of this type and conclude contracts for the export version, Amur 1650, under military-technical cooperation, the Zvezda TV channel reported.


Project 677 was developed under the supervision of Rubin’s General Designer Yuri Kormilitsyn. The primary mission for SSKs of this type is to search and destroy enemy submarines. Having implemented a lot of new technologies and advanced design solutions, the Rubin Central Design Bureau of Marine Engineering developed a unique ship. During its trials in the Baltic Sea and later (from mid-2013 to the present) at the Northern Fleet’s testing ranges, St. Petersburg demonstrated excellent "hunter" capabilities. In dueling situations with surface ships and submarines of other projects, the boat was the first to detect a simulated enemy. This gave its commander an opportunity to occupy an advantageous attack position and unexpectedly conduct a simulated launch.

The Russian Navy is expected to receive four ships in the original diesel-electric version, and then another five boats of an improved project fitted with an air-independent propulsion (AIP) system.

Igor Vilnit, CEO of Rubin, says that the Project 677 SSK is currently the most advanced non-nuclear submarine capable of successfully competing with all existing German, French and Swedish submarines of this class. In practical terms, this statement refers primarily to the Project 75i international tender for six submarines for the Indian Navy, in which Rosoboronexport is promoting the Amur 1650. "All other tender bids are based on the ships of earlier projects and some of their improvements, whereas we are offering Indian partners to build their indigenous submarine on the basis of ours, which is most advanced today. And this is a very important point," says Vilnit.

The second involves the specific features of the future ship in the light of the Indian Navy’s mandatory requirement for it to be fitted with AIP. The bottom line is this: retrofitting diesel-electric submarines with AIP makes it possible to extend submerged endurance at low speeds (3-5 knots) by two or three times, which increases the stealth of submarines on the enemy’s sea lines of communication and near its coast. St. Petersburg does not have an AIP system, but, beginning with the fifth hull, all of the follow-on Project 677 boats will be equipped with a fuel-cell AIP system based on diesel fuel reforming.


Rubin has made significant progress over the past few years developing an AIP system for submarines. First a technology demonstrator and then a shore-based test facility were built. The tests on it have been completely completed, and the Russian Navy’s requirements have been met. Preparations are underway for the next stage of tests. Details of the program are not disclosed for reasons of security. At the same time, the developers of the domestic AIP openly state that their installation has a number of significant advantages over its Western counterparts. "The operating principle of our AIP has been recognized the most appropriate across the world, since both our German and French colleagues switched to this type, but our design bureau started this work much earlier. We have an edge here, which will be embodied in an advanced project for the Indian Navy with the help and participation of Indian enterprises," the Rubin CEO said.

The victory in India is very important for bringing the new product to the world market. Foreign contracts, added to State Defense Order, will make it possible to quickly pay back the costs incurred for research and development work, increase the size of the production series and reduce the cost per unit. Many importing countries are interested in AIP submarines, but they want to get a ready-made, proven system. If Rosoboronexport succeeds in persuading our partners in military and technical cooperation in the advantages of domestic shipbuilders’ products, then Rubin, Admiralty Shipyard and its subcontractors can count on numerous contracts. This will allow them to remain in the market and continue developing the national school of underwater shipbuilding.

The Indian military are closely following all the latest achievements of Russian sailors and shipbuilders. They are especially interested in St. Petersburg, as this ship is proposed as a prototype in the tender for Project 75i. Igor Molchanov, Chief Designer of non-nuclear submarines at Rubin, explains: "We say that the Project 677 diesel-electric submarine is a prototype for the Amur 1650. I confirm that all the main tests of the lead ship have been completed. There remained only a small scope of inspections related to the sonar system."
As is known, St. Petersburg is equipped with a prototype of the Lira sonar system developed by the Elektropribor Central Research Institute. In terms of performance, it is far superior to the series-built MGK-400 Rubicon-family sonar systems used in SSKs of previous Projects 636 and 877.

"Since a really unique sonar system is installed aboard St. Petersburg, all efforts are focused today on carrying out its comprehensive testing in completely different conditions," continues Molchanov. "The system is operable and has substantiated all its claimed characteristics. However, since hydrology is complex and changing, a large scope of work is done for a variety of hydrological conditions that may be encountered in the Oceans of the World. I emphasize that it’s not about functional demonstration of the sonar - because there is no longer any doubt about it. It’s about a set of certain statistics that will allow using this sonar system with a given effectiveness under completely different conditions."

It is the Lira, together with the small dimensions of the ship and extremely low-noise SED-1 main permanent-magnet motor (such a motor was used for the first time on the Russian submarine), that makes the Project 677 boat a "hunter" for foreign submarines. The 533mm torpedo tubes are adapted for firing the Kalibr strike cruise missiles as well. St. Petersburg conducted its first missile launches in the fall of 2016.

The submarine is capable of firing a salvo from all six tubes, while a quick loader enables the whole available weapon load (18 units) to be fired at the enemy in a matter of minutes. This makes the boat formidable for any enemy, including an aircraft carrier strike group. Among the missile versions, there are also the 3M-14 land-attack missiles, which were already used by the Project 636.3 SSK Rostov-on-Don and Krasnodar to destroy IS ground targets in Syria. Although the tests of the lead boat took a long time, their completion suggests that our Navy has got a lethal combatant unit, fully prepared for batch production, the Zvezda TV channel writes.

https://navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2017/august-2017-navy-naval-forces-defense-industry-technology-maritime-security-global-news/5473-project-677-lead-submarine-st-petersburg-passed-all-russian-navy-tests.html

Report on Lada-class subs construction progress (Krondstat and Veliki Luki)

So far looking good I think unless I misread something... Also, anyone sees VLS cells in the back or am I misinterpreting third photo? These subs seem bit longer than Kilos...

https://bmpd.livejournal.com/2934555.html

Nope, if that were the case we'd see a bulge sticking out, this one is straight and flat.

And no AIP yet... Build two Imp. Kilos instead of Lada till AIP is ready maybe then...

Militarov wrote:And no AIP yet... Build two Imp. Kilos instead of Lada till AIP is ready maybe then...

These have smaller crew than Kilos and other fancier stuff so it makes sense. I mean, crew size alone is worth it.

Plus they can install AIP during upgrade later unlike Kilos. Those subs are exquisite but they pretty much used up all upgrade potential.

Third Lada is supposed to get AIP if my memory serves me.

PapaDragon wrote:

Militarov wrote:And no AIP yet... Build two Imp. Kilos instead of Lada till AIP is ready maybe then...

These have smaller crew than Kilos and other fancier stuff so it makes sense. I mean, crew size alone is worth it.

Plus they can install AIP during upgrade later unlike Kilos. Those subs are exquisite but they pretty much used up all upgrade potential.

Third Lada is supposed to get AIP if my memory serves me.

Apparently not, 2 current and 2 yet to be signed are to get diesel-electric. And 5th.. far into future might get AIP.

It seems like they are rather pushing Lada so they dont look like they wasted time and money on the project, because to be frank without AIP, it brings nothing thats worth of logistic nightmare it will create.

Militarov wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:

Militarov wrote:And no AIP yet... Build two Imp. Kilos instead of Lada till AIP is ready maybe then...

These have smaller crew than Kilos and other fancier stuff so it makes sense. I mean, crew size alone is worth it.

Plus they can install AIP during upgrade later unlike Kilos. Those subs are exquisite but they pretty much used up all upgrade potential.

Third Lada is supposed to get AIP if my memory serves me.

Apparently not, 2 current and 2 yet to be signed are to get diesel-electric. And 5th.. far into future might get AIP.

It seems like they are rather pushing Lada so they dont look like they wasted time and money on the project, because to be frank without AIP, it brings nothing thats worth of logistic nightmare it will create.

Logistics nightmare over conventional sub? I don't think so especially when compared to actual logistics nightmares​ they got around.

Besides they are doing with these subs what they should be doing with frigates: keep building to get the numbers even if not everything is ready because in several years it will be and you better have fresh vessels available.

Last thing they need is another Gorshkov fiasco where they halted all production because some components are late (even though they will be ready soon) and dooming entire class of ships in the process.

Better fresh conventional and upgradable Lada in service than fancy AIP Lada on the drawing board. And AIP will be coming along anyway.

Kilos are actually still being built (6 more at least). They can afford to move onto new stuff in parallel. These aren't SSBNs, they are submersible equivalent of Buyans more or less...

While a Russian AIP was tested, it didn't meet what they wanted in demand. But overall, Lada class sub met all other demands. So it appears they are just going to build it till the new AIP is completed. Although, they are unsure which vessel will be lucky to test new AIP. There are doubts any current Lada will, so possibly 5th one will end up being test subject.

Isos wrote:

For shore defence kilo are very good and they have more than 80 years of experience of operating those diesel subs near their shores.

Lada AIP/Kalina can stay longer underwater and move faster with considerable speeds = stealth in both  blue and green waters scenario.

If they want to put AIP in their diesel subs they should build them bigger. Like french baracuda class they sold to australia. At least 100m long so they can carry more vls and be send further than kilos or lada.

Barracuda for Aussies? Do you mean  DAT class? Oh la la

“The most immediate and possibly the biggest risk flowing from the decision to acquire the Shortfin Barracuda — a submarine that is yet to be designed, let alone built — is the inevitable long schedule for its delivery,” the report states.

“Even on the best possible scenario where everything goes according to present plans, the first Shortfin Barracuda becomes operational only in 2033, while the Collins Class submarines are scheduled to be progressively withdrawn at the age of 30, between 2026 and 2033. Even then, under these very benign circumstances where everything goes according to plan, the Navy will have only one submarine in 2034 and perhaps four by 2040. This capability is clearly inadequate.”

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/defence/submarine-report-government-advised-to-shelve-50bn-plan-for-frenchbuilt-subs/news-story/13e0f9ff0ed99705b12ea1e1b54466d8?nk=872bb660b913e5f29796965cf6259713-1510192696

This Lada order is stopgap of a stopgap, simply to put it.

When its about logistical issues, regular maintenance of conventional sub is a nightmare on its own, disregarding major overhauls. Now when you end up with 3 types in service, 4th coming with different propulsion... oh thats going to be fun.

As i said before, 3 types of trucks we used were bad enough.