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    Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class submarine

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    Post  Admin Fri Jan 06, 2012 8:58 pm

    There isn't a chance Lada will be a contender for P-75I.

    Navy refused the newest submarine project "Lada"

    "St. Petersburg" will be the only boat of this project, which will be experienced and not a part of the Navy

    Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class submarine - Page 2 B-585_Sankt-Peterburg_in_2010

    "Saint Petersburg". Photo: A. Morozov

    In the Main Staff of the Navy, "Izvestiya" reported on Wednesday that the testing program of the project "Lada", from which 10 years ago there were plans to upgrade non-nuclear submarine force, had collapsed.

    - In the battle fleet, "St. Petersburg" will not be accepted. This is the final decision. The boat will remain prototypes, which will be tested separate complexes - a senior representative of the Command of the Navy.

    The main drawback of "Lada" interlocutor "Izvestia" described is crude engine, which proved unable to develop more than half of the given project power.

    In addition, the sonar system is not ready the boat for the development of which was spent 1.3 billion rubles, the combat information management system "Lithium" and torpedo "TE-2 toy" remains undeveloped.

    - Beautiful on a plan, the project was unsuccessful. In fact, we have a full-scale model of the ship. The boat is fully obsolete on a number of important areas. Its defects and the rapid aging of existing diesel submarines are forcing us to return to the tried and tested "Kilo" - summed up the representative of the Navy.

    According to him, work on two other boats of the project "Lada" - "Kronstadt" and "Sevastopol", the body which is fully ready, now frozen. Perhaps they are already tested equip engines from other projects, legacy systems and will be sold abroad.

    http://www.izvestia.ru/news/507580
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    Post  GarryB Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:43 pm

    This report has already been discussed from memory.

    It is essentially true, yet fundamentally wrong.

    The lead ship of the Lada class wlll not enter operational service and will be used for testing.

    Sounds catastrophic... but actually isn't.

    They tested it and found that certain things don't work to the level they need to work... which is not to say it is unworkable.

    For testing, normally they have to take an in service submarine from service to do operational testing... ie checking sonar signature from an external source etc etc, so using this prototype as a testbed is a good thing.

    The two vessels that have been laid can benefit from the problems found with the first boat and solutions can be applied to solve those problems and get their performance to spec.

    The Navy has ordered new Kilos in the mean time as they are proven and capable designs.


    Submarine Project 677 upgrade after 2013 - CDB "Ruby"

    24/11/2011 15:34

    MOSCOW, November 24 - RIA Novosti. Diesel-electric submarines of Project 677 "Lada" will modernize the technical refinement of the project will be completed in 2013, told RIA Novosti on Thursday, general manager of the Central Design Bureau for Marine Engineering "Rubin" (project developer), Andrew deacons.

    He was commenting on reports by some media that the test boats of this project have been frozen.

    "Ruby" is working on finalizing the technical design (subs - Ed.) According to the experience of exploitation on the tests, "St. Petersburg" (head boat series). This project will be completed in 2013, "- said Djachkov.

    He said that the submarine "Saint Petersburg" is in trial operation of the fleet. "While the ship handles tasks in the Baltic Sea," - said the CEO.

    As reported by RIA Novosti senior General Staff of the Navy of Russia, second and third boats of this project - "Kronstadt" and "Sevastopol" - will be completed taking into account the already developed modernized version based on a series of 677 after 2013.

    A series of Russian diesel-electric submarines of Project 677 is designed chief designer Yuri Kormilitsin. Feature of the series is a combination of small size and low noise level with a powerful torpedoes and torpedo-missile weapons.

    The boats are designed to destroy submarines, surface ships and vessels of the enemy, protect naval bases, sea coast and sea lanes, conduct reconnaissance. Series is a development project 877 "halibut." Displacement of the ship is 1765 tons, the maximum depth - 350 meters, speed - 21 knots, the crew - 36 people, autonomy - 45 days, armed with torpedoes and missiles, torpedoes, and air defense systems "Igla-1M."

    source: http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20111124/496875886.html

    The article you posted is dated November 23 2011, and the article I posted above is dated November 24 2011, and is clearly in direct response to the article you posted.
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    Post  Admin Sat Jan 07, 2012 9:54 am

    With an engine working only at half power, weapon systems that do not function and obsolete systems this submarine does not reach the goals of a modern SSK. State timelines are meaningless proven time and again. Funding has not been provided for completion and won't be until it is determined a viable product. We have to wait many years for the State to come out and say a project is terminated. It is just a matter of time before they are forced to admit it.
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    Post  GarryB Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:21 am

    The stuff being developed for the Lada is all new and state of the art... that is why there are problems with it.

    The article I posted above is from the makers of the submarine, so it is hardly unbiased... but if the sub was crap they would have scrapped it and the two subs laid down and would then have had to start from scratch to design and build new conventional subs.

    The facts of the matter are that the Lada contains all their latest technology, which if it works is world leading.

    If you read the article that started this thread... German subs with their "Amazing" AIPs can operate at 4 knts for 14 days underwater, while this Lada sub can operate underwater for 16 days at 4knts on batteries alone!

    Doesn't sound obsolete to me.

    It has some problems and they are working on those problems and plan to have solved those problems by next year.

    They will apply those solutions to the already laid down hulls fo the next two vessels... and lets be realistic, it is possible that they might not finish them very quickly and also that the new solutions are not completely successful.

    The Lada is significantly better than any model Kilo on paper, so if these new Project 677M subs are only getting close to what the project 677 was supposed to be at least it is a step forward.

    If the 677 is obsolete rubbish then why keep it at all?

    Very simply what I am saying is that even if it is not as good as it is supposed to be it will be better than what they currently have.

    I think it will actually be a very good with a smaller crew and lighter displacement, but a better sonar and command and control systems and new torpedoes it should be a very capable system when it is actually ready for service.

    Problems during development are better than problems during service... it is best to sort things out now and build upgraded Kilos to fill the gap than to rush production of Ladas now and sort out the problems while they are in service/production.

    I have read an article where a Russian Navy official states that their plans are for 5 upgraded kilos to be built and 5 Lada class vessels to be built by 2020. The Kilos are already ordered and the Ladas are scheduled to start production after 2013.

    If they did have to cancel it it would be incredibly expensive to start an all new program... especially as it is unlikely that any country that has developed AIPs will share that technology.
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    Post  GarryB Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:54 am

    The Russian Navy had problems developing the new Project 677 Lada diesel-electric submarines, whereas Project 877 Paltus (Kilo class) submarines continued to age rapidly. As a result, the Navy had to order upgraded Project 636-M (Kilo class) submarines once again. In August 2010, the keel of a lead Project 636-M submarine was laid for the Black Sea Fleet.

    Over the next decade, the Navy will replace obsolete Paltus submarines with improved models, while continuing to upgrade the Lada submarine. The Navy is to operate four to five Ladas, as well as 9-12 upgraded and 5-6 obsolete Paltus submarines.

    http://en.rian.ru/analysis/20101102/161183586.html

    from November 2010, and in practical terms a motor not running to max spec performance and a Sonar system that operates well in the baltic and will likely be tested in deeper water this year needs minor fixes rather than replacement... it is a high performance set designed to detect enemy SSNs near Russian SSBNs and ports.

    Most likely the current version of Sigma C4IR system will likely be added to the 677M vessels as that system is standard on all other new surface vessels and subs.
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    Post  Austin Sat Jan 07, 2012 6:32 pm

    Vlad , do not just trust blindly what izvestia has to say , it is known for many comical news like procurement of shuttle for badminton becuase Medvedev said it improves concentration and many other.

    Izvestia is basicly crap , unless its confirmed by many source.

    Rubin director has said in an interview to Rian recently that the next 2 lada will be built to improved standard and will be based on feedback from the first boat ...so Lada will live and will get better.

    They have also tested a unique AIP for it that generated hydrogen on the fly and does not have to store and uses diesel to do it.Its very promising technology for AIP and more safer then the germans one which stores hydrogen on board.

    Kilo wont last for long and they know that , so they will pursue it in the long term interest of industry and for the navy , no two views on that.
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    Post  GarryB Sat Jan 07, 2012 11:47 pm

    They have also tested a unique AIP for it that generated hydrogen on the fly and does not have to store and uses diesel to do it.Its very promising technology for AIP and more safer then the germans one which stores hydrogen on board.

    The Russians have really thought about this and have invested a lot of money into the new AIP, and also they have invested a lot of money in developing Lithium Ion batteries too.

    The genius of their AIP is that because it extracts the required material from Diesel when you adopt this AIP very little has to change.
    If you buy a German sub with AIP then even if you only buy one then in every port you want that sub to operate you need to set up facilities for handling and supplying hydrogen right to the pier.

    With the Russian system the diesel handling and storage is already present.

    The other point is that a diesel electric sub already has onboard storage for large amounts of diesel fuel so apart from some pipes carrying diesel from the fuel tanks to the new AIP section and electrical cables that deliver the current generated to the batteries or direct to the propulsion motor there is little else that needs to be done to an old ship being upgraded with this new AIP.

    To install the German system you need hydrogen storage tanks as well as the AIP section.

    Obviously it isn't perfect... there are plenty of questions to be answered... AFAIK the Russian system doesn't extract hydrogen from the diesel, it actually extracts methonol or some such alcohol based fuel that is used in their fuel cell to generate electricity, so what remains of the diesel and what use is it?

    Can it still be used in the diesel engine or must it be discarded.

    Could they use different diesel with a very high methanol content and then process the diesel once underway to separate out the material they need leaving diesel they can still use as diesel?

    I don't know.
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    Post  Admin Sun Jan 08, 2012 5:54 am

    There is no AIP installed on the St. Petersburg, it hasn't been tested. The Type 214 is so noisy they are being sent back to the drawing board.. India is executing the +3 option on Scorpenes and they don't want to spend more money and time converting to take different construction processes.
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    Post  Austin Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:50 am

    Vladimir79 wrote:There is no AIP installed on the St. Petersburg, it hasn't been tested. The Type 214 is so noisy they are being sent back to the drawing board.. India is executing the +3 option on Scorpenes and they don't want to spend more money and time converting to take different construction processes.

    The AIP is being bench tested for the past 2 years and they were suppose to be demonstrated to India.

    The additional Scorpenes is to tie over the short fall in submarine , cant wait for the new line to over the shortfall too soon as the new 2nd line of submarine for which Amur is a contender will only come like 5 years from now.
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    Post  Admin Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:24 am

    The RFP for 75I has yet to be issued. No bench test has been demonstrated to India.

    Mazagong docks says it is cheaper to build more French submarines and with the tight wads at FinMin, Marlin looks the winner.
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    Post  Austin Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:56 am

    Vlad , the Indian Navy Plan is to build 24 Conventional submarine in a 30 year submarine development plan.

    The first was P-75 for which Scorpene design is selected , the plan was to build 6 of this class at Mazagoan , they screwd up badly and instead of delivery by 2012 , it has not shifted to late 2015.

    Since Indian submarine force is falling at a faster pace then they could be added , they are proposing to build 3 more over the 6 since its easier to use existing infrastructure and build the subs faster after 6 are already built.

    The other 6 will be of P-75I class for which RFI was issued and now RFP will be issued , the plan is to procure larger conventional submarine with AIP and even with VLS capability.

    The remaining 10-12 submarine was suppose to be of Indian design.

    It may sound stupid to build 2 conventional submarine of different design but Indian Navy has been operating submarine of 2 class like Kilo and T-209 currently.

    Its hard to say which submarine will win the P-75I deal but most certainly Amur is a top contender there , the other is German Type 212 and French modified Scorpene Design similar to S80 not the Marlin , the marlin was smaller then Scorpene
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    Post  GarryB Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:38 pm

    There is no AIP installed on the St. Petersburg, it hasn't been tested.

    That is right, they don't have anything ready for service right now, but as mentioned in the first article:

    As of now, the St Petersburg is equipped with a classic battery, but in future, it will be replaced by ion-lithium, when latter gets available. It is expected that the Amur-1650 with ion-lithium batteries can get a two fold increase in underwater time – from 9 days currently up to 16, which is comparable to the current levels of German U-boats with AIP.

    So with new Lithium Ion batteries they can match the underwater performance of the German subs that use AIPs. When the Russian AIP is ready that will extend its underwater performance even further.

    They have already invested money in the new Li Ion batteries and AIP... just because the diesel and electric motors on the first Lada class are not performing to spec, there is no reason to trash all that work and effort and go back to upgraded Kilos... and spend a huge amount of money to start everything again from scratch.
    The sensible thing to do is what they are doing... lay down some upgraded Kilo class vessels as a stopgap, and fix the problems with the failing systems on the Lada class sub being tested. Freeze the other two hulls till the solutions are found and then finish those two hulls to the new 677M standard with the problems solved. They seem pretty sure they will have the solution next year (2013) but in the mean time upgraded Kilos are being built so there is no need to panic.

    If the problems with the new propulsion are fundamental and can never be fixed then a simple scaled down propulsion from the Kilo class could be substituted in the worst case scenario... the Lada is still smaller and has just over half the crew of a Kilo, and has better electronics and sensors and weapons.

    ...even if it is a complete export failure then it will do the job, but I rather suspect smaller vessels with smaller crews and perhaps cheaper downgraded for export systems might appeal to many countries... or the expensive and capable electronics might be even more interesting.
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    Post  Austin Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:16 am

    New Submarines Improve Performance

    Russia’s Project 636 SSK, called Kilo in the West, set standards in the Cold War, but its designer—St. Petersburg-based CDB Rubin—is now playing catch-up after years of underinvestment. Rubin’s general director, Andrey Dyachkov, tells DTI that the company is completing bench-testing of a prototype AIP system.

    The system is a hydrogen fuel cell, as used by TKMS-HDW, but instead of operating on stored hydrogen, it relies on chemical re- formation of the sub’s diesel fuel, which eliminates special on-board tankage and hydrogen infrastructure on shore. According to Dyachkov, this technology has already been validated during AIP bench tests. “This allows us to use the standard diesel fuel and doesn’t require complex ground support” compared to the German variant, he explained.

    Rubin plans to install AIP in the Amur 1650, offered for the Indian navy’s tender for six conventional submarines. An export version of Russia’s Project 677 Lada class, Amur has a surface displacement of 1,765 metric tons, submerged speed of 19 kt. and a crew of 35. It is designed to strike both sea-based and fixed land-based targets. The 66-meter (217-ft.) boat carries six torpedo tubes and Klub-S (SS-N-27) missiles in 10 vertical launchers that can be fired in salvos. For the Indian tender it also will be equipped with Russo-Indian PJ-10 BrahMos supersonic missiles fired from the same launchers.

    The AIP can be installed in the Amur 1650 in a separate module along with the conventional diesel-electric propulsion system. Using the AIP, the sub’s endurance can increase by two or three more weeks from 45 days currently, based on a customer’s request. Continuous submerged time increases from the current nine days to 14-20 days.

    The first Project 677 boat, the St. Petersburg, is undergoing reliability testing with the Russian navy in the Baltic Sea. In 2012, it is expected to complete the testing of its sonar system, says Dyachkov. The Admiralty Shipyards in St. Petersburg are constructing two more, the Kronstadt and Sevastopol, but so far there are no funds for completing these with AIP.

    Rubin plans to further increase Amur 1650 endurance by replacing lead-acid batteries with lithium-ion (Li-Ion) batteries. The designers do not report about their progress in this field, but say that lithium-ion batteries will be able to increase the sub’s submerged endurance and distance by 50% at low noise patrol speed and threefold at full speed. Unlike the AIP, which is only compatible with the Amur, the new batteries can also be offered for Rubin’s Project 636 Kilo boats.
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    Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class submarine - Page 2 Empty I think what ever happens they must pursue the Lada program and should not neglect it in favour of Kilo.

    Post  Austin Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:44 am

    I think what ever happens they must pursue the Lada program and should not neglect it in favour of Kilo.

    Kilo design has been stretched to limit and 10 years from now it wont be competitive against modern Western SSK and that would greatly impinge its export prospects.

    Amur is a very modular design and the customer can opt for it based on its requirenment and needs and how deep his pockets are.

    Lithium-Ion cells are also very promising providing much improved performance over Lead-Acid Battery.

    AIP that generates Hydrogen from Diesel and does not need any Hydrogen to be carried is very very promising as it does not need expensive shore infrastructure , provides all benefit of Hydrogen based AIP which is the most effecient and provides much better safety factor.

    Not to mentions Single Hull Subs are less effort to maintain and can pack more punch with lesser tonnage having impact on Fuel ,Power and Engine.

    All in All Lada/Amur design is very promising and it will give them much more in financial and market returns in the next 30 year.

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    Post  TR1 Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:12 am

    Austin wrote:I think what ever happens they must pursue the Lada program and should not neglect it in favour of Kilo.

    Kilo design has been stretched to limit and 10 years from now it wont be competitive against modern Western SSK and that would greatly impinge its export prospects.

    Amur is a very modular design and the customer can opt for it based on its requirenment and needs and how deep his pockets are.

    Lithium-Ion cells are also very promising providing much improved performance over Lead-Acid Battery.

    AIP that generates Hydrogen from Diesel and does not need any Hydrogen to be carried is very very promising as it does not need expensive shore infrastructure , provides all benefit of Hydrogen based AIP which is the most effecient and provides much better safety factor.

    Not to mentions Single Hull Subs are less effort to maintain and can pack more punch with lesser tonnage having impact on Fuel ,Power and Engine.

    All in All Lada/Amur design is very promising and it will give them much more in financial and market returns in the next 30 year.


    Apparently the new Kilos are different from export ones, and draw from advancements from Lada. Lot's of new things, sonar, etc. Might lower dependance on Lada coming to fruition even more.
    No AIP, but apparently Navy isn't desperate for AIP.
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    Post  GarryB Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:32 am

    The situation is subject to the law of diminished returns.

    They could put the new batteries and the new sonar system, and new propulsion from the Lada class into the improved Kilo class, but to reap the full advantage of all the new technology it makes sense to go with a new from scratch design.

    It is a bit like the situation with the Flankers.

    You can put all the stuff you develop for the PAK FA into the Su-27 airframe, but at the end of the day it will never actually be a 5th gen stealth aircraft because some things need to be included in the design from scratch to take full advantage of them.

    The Lada class is smaller and quieter than the Kilo, so while putting the better sensors and equipment into the Kilos will certainly improve performance, it wont be as good in the end as a Lada class with the same stuff in it.

    While there is a delay for both the PAK FA and Lada class vessels it makes sense to apply the new stuff to existing platforms (Su-35S and Improved Kilo 636.3) but this is not a replacement for the new kit.

    It gives the new stuff operational experience, it enhances commonality between existing equipment and the next gen stuff that is soon to appear into service. It reduces variation amongst vessels in service and at the same time increases the performance of existing material.

    Most subs will go through several upgrades and refits during their operational lives and the better the commonality between them the easier things are to use and to support them.

    The whole purpose of AIP is to extend the time a diesel electric sub can operate between using its diesel engines to generate power to top up the batteries.
    They are actually not cheap, so if you can get the same performance just using better battery technology then the choice is pretty clear.

    Remember these are coastal subs... they don't need to operate entirely submerged for months at a time... these subs wont be creeping into NATO ports to spy, they will be looking for foreign SSNs trying to sneak into Russian ports or safe areas for Russian SSBNs.
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    Post  Russian Patriot Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:59 am

    Russian Navy to Drop Lada Class Subs � CinC Vysotsky

    RIA Novosti

    09:08 09/02/2012 MOSCOW, February 9 (RIA Novosti) - The Russian Navy has decided against construction of Lada class submarines (Project 677) and will instead modernize its existing boats, Navy Commander-in-Chief Adm. Vladimir Vysotsky said in an interview with RIA Novosti.

    The design of the diesel-electric Lada class was completed at the end of the 1990s, but none of the planned boats have entered service, although the lead ship in the class, the Saint Petersburg, is undergoing trials with the Baltic Fleet, Vysotsky said.

    “The Russian Navy does not need the Lada in its current form,” he said.

    Vysotsky also said the first the non-nuclear Russian submarine with anaerobic propulsion may begin trials in 2014.

    Currently all of Russia’s submarines are either nuclear or diesel-electric powered.

    “It is entirely possible we will receive a test version of an air-independent power plant in the next few years. On boats of the Lada class, two of which are already laid down. Trials may begin in 2014. That is absolutely realistic,” he said.

    In addition, all of Russia’s active strategic submarines will be armed with Liner ballistic missiles, an advanced version of the Sineva missile, Vysotsky said.

    “For now only those on combat patrol in the Pacific Ocean are equipped with them. But in future all our active strategic submarines - Delfin and Kalmar (Delta III and Delta IV) - will be armed with these missiles,” he said.

    Construction of a new aircraft carrier will begin before 2020, Vysotsky said.

    “Actual construction of the ship will begin before 2020 and will be completed after 2020. The design of the new carrier complex will be determined in the course of two years, by 2014,” he said.

    The Admiral Kuznetsov is currently the Russian Navy’s only active aircraft carrier.

    Vysotsky confirmed that the Bulava ballistic missile and the strategic nuclear submarine Yury Dolgoruky would enter service simultaneously this year.

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/russia/2012/russia-120209-rianovosti05.htm
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    Post  GarryB Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:35 am

    This report is contradictory.

    It states in the title that the Russian navy will not accept Lada class subs... note the S on the end of subs?

    There is only one Lada class sub they are rejecting and that is the first sub of the new class, and they admit that it will be used for testing so it will not be scrapped.

    Later in the piece they mention AIP developments and how they will be applied to the two Lada class subs already laid down that will be tested in 2014.

    Now if the Lada class is cancelled why bother completing two Lada class subs to test AIP?

    The facts of the matter are that the Lada sub design is not new, but was very ambitious... it was a conventional sub that was to hunt SSNs, which meant it had to be very quiet and have a very powerful sonar set and efficient and powerful propulsion.

    The one Lada class sub completed has been tested in shallow water and it was found to have problems with propulsion not being as powerful as was anticipated.

    Because of this however it will not enter Russian Navy service but its powerful sonar will be tested in deep water and the sub will be used for testing other vessels, which means operational subs wont be needed to do that job.

    The problems found on the first Lada sub are being corrected and if this article is to be believed they will also test a brand new AIP design they have developed themselves.

    The two Lada class subs laid down have not been worked on and once solutions are found and a new upgrade design for Lada-M or project 677M has been finalised it will be applied to the two hulls laid down so they can enter testing and then Russian Navy service.

    The competition from German Type 214 subs also had initial problems and these problems were fixed while the subs were operational with foreign customers. The Russian AIP sounds safer and much cheaper in terms of support infrastructure. More importantly together with gains in performance with Lithium Ion batteries replacing lead acid batteries the Russian vessels will vastly out perform foreign equivalents.

    The improved Kilos are a stopgap measure till the Lada-M is ready for serial production...
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    Post  runaway Fri Feb 10, 2012 8:13 am


    Switched forum,

    "(

    Clearly the Navy has another opinion.


    Look at what it says...


    The Russian Navy has decided against construction of Lada class submarines (Project 677) and will instead modernize its existing boats, Navy Commander-in-Chief Adm. Vladimir Vysotsky said in an interview with RIA Novosti.


    So it is not going to produce Project 677 class subs.

    The makers of the subs have also said as much.

    They said that the two other vessels laid down already will be upgraded and completed as Project 677M.

    SO it is a case of Lada is dead long live Lada-M.

    He then says:


    On boats of the Lada class, two of which are already laid down. Trials may begin in 2014. That is absolutely realistic,” he said.


    In other words the lead ship of the lada class is an old design from the 1990s and has not met expectations and will not be serially produced.
    The two other Lada class subs however will be completed based on the experience and solutions developed for the Lada class and will start testing in 2014... as Project 677M class vessels and likely will be accepted into Russian service alongside the upgraded Kilos they are also making to fill the gap.

    The first Lada vessel itself will be kept for use as a testing sub because the sonar it is fitted with is a very capable set that is normally fitted to much larger and more powerful SSNs rather than SSKs.

    It means it can be used to test things without taking an active sub out of service to test something.


    Interview with Navy Chief Adm. Vladimir Vysotsky


    Interesting... in this interview he seems to have discounted the original Lada because its diesel electric propulsion is WWII era stuff... ie diesel electric.

    He seems to suggest that the remaining two Ladas will be completed with AIP and a new propulsion system.")



    Well, nothing new really, the 677M will be completed in 2014 and be ready for testing with its new propulsion. This is good news, and suggest that further hulls can be laid down, as there is nothing faulty with the design as such.
    And there is nothing that says the 636.3 cant be upgraded with the new propulsion, its easy to just add a section if there aint room.


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    Post  Austin Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:42 pm

    Garry there is no confusion , he simply says the first of class 677 Lada does not meet the needs and it falls short of propulsion power .......he wants the existing 677 two of which is laid to have AIP propulsion and sort the issue with first lada.
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    Post  GarryB Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:18 pm

    The article title says the Lada class is cancelled.

    It does not say the first Lada Class did not meet performance expectations and lessons and solutions to rectify performance will be applied to the two laid down Lada class subs, which will be called Lada M class Project 677M subs that will likely commence construction in 2013 and enter service after being tested.

    I think it is poor reporting.

    It is trying to be attention grabbing by misleading the reader into think the new Russian conventional sub design is a complete failure and a dead end.

    It is dishonest sensationalism...
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    Post  Austin Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:53 pm

    Commander: Russian Navy does not waive the procurement of submarines of "Lada"

    "I put it sharply on the first ship" St. Petersburg "and not about" Lada "in general" - said Vysotsky.

    It (this ship), the main problem - the power plant. Now we have already demonstrated a working model of an anaerobic (airindependent) units with access to a decent power. Of course, there are many questions still need to refine. But basically, we expect to get a working model" - he said.

    The admiral said that the bench test this unit "show encouraging results."

    "After the elimination of these shortcomings can turn out a good project. We are very clear where to go," - said Vysotsky.
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    Post  GarryB Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:19 am

    "I put it sharply on the first ship" St. Petersburg "and not about" Lada "in general" - said Vysotsky.

    In other words he is saying when he said they would not order Lada he meant the first ship, not the entire class.

    "After the elimination of these shortcomings can turn out a good project. We are very clear where to go," - said Vysotsky.

    In other words, the first full scale prototype of the Lada class had problems, and we have now examined those problems and will apply the solutions to the remaining vessels of the class which will be good subs worth the Russian Navy buying.
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    Post  George1 Fri Jul 27, 2012 12:34 pm

    Russia to Resume Construction of Diesel Subs

    Russia will resume series production of non-nuclear Project 677 Lada-class submarines, Navy chief Vice Adm. Viktor Chirkov said on Friday.

    Construction of two Lada-class subs, the Sevastopol and the Kronshtadt, was frozen because of the project’s purported inefficiency.

    Chirkov said the technical project has been adjusted and construction of the two subs will resume shortly.

    The "fourth generation" diesel-electric submarine features quieter, new combat systems and air-independent propulsion.

    http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20120727/174805860.html
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    Post  Austin Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:42 pm

    One of the oldest inverview on 636 and 677 class submarine by Rubin Chief but always an interesting one.

    Interview with Yury Nikolaevich Kormilitsyn, General Designer of Central Design Bureau of Marine Transport "Rubin"

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