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    Project 677: Lada class Submarine

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    navyfield

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  navyfield on Fri Sep 26, 2014 5:56 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    aip on lada -megafailed! fact! it didnt increase the performance of lada over kilo at all ,and added cost and complexety.
    whole Lada class production for which navy had high expectations was stopped!

    AIP on first LADA vessel can't have failed... it never had one.

    They had the first LADA boat in the water and testing before the AIP was even ready and one of the conclusions was to put both Lithium Ion batteries AND the new AIP into the two other Lada subs that have been laid down but not completed till the first Lada had been tested.

    the new batteries and the the AIP wont have a full scale test till the other two Lada vessels... likely named Lada-M or possibly renamed because of the expected new performance.

    The first Lada built will be kept in service for testing new technology and the new Ladas will likely enter service when they finish testing.

    That is becuase it *had* problems... Now that they are fixed, all they need is a paycheck or two and the work shall continue/resume. Just look at how fast the Improved-Kilos are getting built, the Lada's should be built in a similar (fast) fashion.

    Not really. The Lada is a very capable boat and a generation ahead of Kilo in any version... its sensors are comparable to SSNs, though it lacks top speed and range.

    Once the two in development are ready and have completed testing however, mass production should not be too much of a problem.
    yes it did , so they did as i predicted they added aditional battery pack +and but a  smaller aip -fuel cell , for which they have experience and technology since it was used in ussr space program since late 60s. K-OH electrolyte + h2 + o2 pumped trough graphyte bars. there is a book about it in "man in space" by komrakov and some others i remember long time ago i read about it.
    ofcourse he cant see it- its at the bottom and not visible in the model Razz
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    navyfield

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  navyfield on Fri Sep 26, 2014 6:03 pm

    hydrogen can be very explosive and hydrogen and oxygen can leak ,so they are put in tanks outside of pressure hull...
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    Stealthflanker

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  Stealthflanker on Fri Sep 26, 2014 6:07 pm

    navyfield wrote:hydrogen can be very explosive and hydrogen and oxygen can leak ,so they are put in tanks outside of pressure hull...

    I guess you have better cross sectional diagram then ? Show me.

    Or please, stop making pointless bullshit.
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    navyfield

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  navyfield on Fri Sep 26, 2014 6:16 pm

    read here
    http://korabley.net/news/novye_dizel_ehlektricheskie_podvodnye_lodki_proekta_677_klassa_lada_dlja_podvodnogo_flota_rossii/2009-11-08-419-987
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    Stealthflanker

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  Stealthflanker on Fri Sep 26, 2014 6:24 pm

    navyfield wrote:read here
    http://korabley.net/news/novye_dizel_ehlektricheskie_podvodnye_lodki_proekta_677_klassa_lada_dlja_podvodnogo_flota_rossii/2009-11-08-419-987

    And where is so called Oxygen or Hydrogen tank there ?

    What type of AIP module they installed ?

    I found your article hard to believe because Russian AIP module is like this.



    There both the oxygen and hydrogen tank is inside the pressure hull.

    My conclusion.. The article got mixed up with Optional AIP offer for export.
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    navyfield

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  navyfield on Fri Sep 26, 2014 6:31 pm

    hmmm ,nope , it is confusing , but this is amur- export model i think ,and it has AIP - as section block , as an add-on,  because its optional for customer, so customer can ask for standard amur ssk ,or amur with aip-added in as a vertical section , in case submarines are build with integrated fuel cell aip -from the start- it looks without huge oxygen tank and design is different . Wink
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    Stealthflanker

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  Stealthflanker on Fri Sep 26, 2014 6:34 pm

    navyfield wrote:hmmm ,nope , it is confusing , but this is amur- export model i think ,and it has AIP - as section block , as an add-on,  because its optional for customer, so customer can ask for standard amur ssk ,or amur with aip-added in as a vertical section , in case submarines are build with integrated fuel cell aip -from the start- it looks without huge oxygen tank and design is different . Wink

    SO you're basically lying when saying Lada's AIP failed ? When in fact it has none..

    Good..son..Very good.

    Next time i won't spent my time on you.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  GarryB on Sat Sep 27, 2014 10:24 am

    yes it did , so they did as i predicted they added aditional battery pack +and but a smaller aip -fuel cell , for which they have experience and technology

    Idiot.

    Their fuel cell technology doesn't use hydrogen... it uses diesel fuel, so making a smaller fuel cell makes no sense... on western hydrogen fuel cells it is the hydrogen and oxygen that takes up lots of room and creates the potentially lethal explosive situation.

    hydrogen can be very explosive and hydrogen and oxygen can leak ,so they are put in tanks outside of pressure hull...

    Idiot. Hydrogen needs oxygen to burn and liquid oxygen under pressure in exactly the right mix to explode. Liquid oxygen on the other hand will make anything that will burn explode... burn rate of most fuels is dependent on the rate at which you can get oxygen to the fuel...

    I found your article hard to believe because Russian AIP module is like this.

    Amur is a for export sub and that AIP is for export only too.

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    Viktor

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  Viktor on Wed Oct 01, 2014 8:36 pm

    It has started Very Happy

    Source: Russia has started production of anaerobic systems for submarines
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    Stealthflanker

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  Stealthflanker on Wed Oct 01, 2014 9:15 pm

    Viktor wrote:It has started  Very Happy

    Source: Russia has started production of anaerobic systems for submarines

    Ah so it's started and Russian AIP won't use metal hydrate hydrogen storage as Germans but using reformer instead to produce hydrogen for fuel cell.

    One consideration i see from this kind of AIP is that reformation of diesel fuel to hydrogen is expected to be more complex than other option such as methanol, another thing is that there might be concern that Carbon Dioxide or other gaseous byproduct might be produced during reformation that might be poisoning the fuel cell catalyst (Though seems unlikely because by using reformer i expect Russian fuel cell would have higher operating temperature than German cells, thus more resistant to carbon dioxide poisoning) Nonetheless those byproducts must be disposed.

    Disposal can be done through some sort of scrubber system which will diffuse CO2 with sea water, this process however may impose some penalty to the AIP's own power because it has to offset against back pressure in depth.

    The benefit is of course lighter weight and logistical easiness as the only thing need to be carefully handled is liquid oxygen.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  GarryB on Thu Oct 02, 2014 10:51 am

    The last article I read about it, the Russian AIP generates about 4 times more power than the western hydrogen based equivalent.

    The enormous advantage of using diesel as the AIP fuel source is that every port in the world is already rigged to supply diesel and store diesel and handle diesel. Very few are set up to handle hydrogen.

    This means that for export Russian subs with AIP the infrastructure to support their operation is already in place...


    That is huge....
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    GarryB

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    Lada and AIP Technology

    Post  GarryB on Tue Oct 07, 2014 12:22 am

    Viktor wrote:It has started  Very Happy

    Source: Russia has started production of anaerobic systems for submarines

    Which confirms what we said about the Lada class:

    The first boat of the project "St. Petersburg" was built with classic power plant and is currently continuing the test. Two other boats of this project are still at the stage of completion of construction, and, perhaps, they will be tested first anaerobic systems.

    The first Lada class sub did not have an AIP system but the new system the Russians have developed will be fitted into the next two Lada class subs that were laid down but not completed so they can have AIP and Lithium Ion batteries added before they are complete.

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    runaway

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  runaway on Thu Oct 09, 2014 7:46 pm

    Its very quite about Lada subs, is the remaining two back in production or scrapped? St petersburg, she doesnt bring home any prices or attention, seems a failure.
    New torpedos also seems a long way of, and the only solution seems to be to keep building 636 Kilo, cause otherwise the entire SS fleet will soon be obselete and old.
    Lucky the SSNG and SSBN fleet is modernising and highly capable.

    Kronshtadt (B-586)
    Laid down on July 28, 2005 at the Admiralty Shipyards, will be assigned to Baltic fleet. Construction resumed on July 9th, 2013.[4] Sevastopol (B-587)
    Come on, been in production for soon 10 years!
    They should really cut their losses scrapp the faulty subs and begin with new or revised 636´s
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    Mike E

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  Mike E on Thu Oct 09, 2014 8:12 pm

    runaway wrote:Its very quite about Lada subs, is the remaining two back in production or scrapped? St petersburg, she doesnt bring home any prices or attention, seems a failure.
    New torpedos also seems a long way of, and the only solution seems to be to keep building 636 Kilo, cause otherwise the entire SS fleet will soon be obselete and old.
    Lucky the SSNG and SSBN fleet is modernising and highly capable.

    Kronshtadt (B-586)
    Laid down on July 28, 2005 at the Admiralty Shipyards, will be assigned to Baltic fleet. Construction resumed on July 9th, 2013.[4] Sevastopol (B-587)
    Come on, been in production for soon 10 years!
    They should really cut their losses scrapp the faulty subs and begin with new or revised 636´s

    From what I've heard, most of the issues have been solved with the Lada. Now it is more the issue of finding both time and money, as the Russian naval industry is gettin' pretty busy. Sankt Petersburg has been in service for a short while, so you can't really call it a "failure". As for the new torpedoes, a recent report said that they are very close to reaching production. - Nothing to worry about there. They *are* building the 636, and as that design will reach obsolescence decades before the Lada, there isn't much reason in building any more. After all the production orders for the 636 have been satisfied, I assume the production rate of the Lada/Amur will increase dramatically. - Price will go done etc. 

    Once again.... Kronshtadt has just recently resumed production, it spent many years in limbo, which explains the long construction time.... As for when it will be finished, I have no clue. 
    Only a couple of years... 
    That would be a huge mistake, *they are already building the 636, and they also need to look towards the future*.
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    runaway

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  runaway on Fri Oct 10, 2014 12:46 pm

    Mike E wrote:Once again.... Kronshtadt has just recently resumed production, it spent many years in limbo, which explains the long construction time.... As for when it will be finished, I have no clue. 
    Only a couple of years... 
    That would be a huge mistake, *they are already building the 636, and they also need to look towards the future*.

    Thats what i meant, iam not so sure the future russian SS should be Lada, remeber its a totally different design then the Kilo with a mono hull.
    Perhaps a new dubble hull sub will be easier to make work with AIP and everything.
    Do anyone know if there are other modern submarines with monohull?

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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  GarryB on Fri Oct 10, 2014 1:00 pm

    Its very quite about Lada subs, is the remaining two back in production or scrapped?

    Why on Earth would they scrap them?

    New torpedos also seems a long way of, and the only solution seems to be to keep building 636 Kilo, cause otherwise the entire SS fleet will soon be obselete and old.

    Or they could build Foxtrot class subs... they would be even easier to mass produce...

    They have spent large amounts of money to create a new SSK a generation ahead of the 636, why would they scrap them now and keep making 636s?

    Do you think they should also stop development of the PAK FA and just make lots more Su-35s and MiG-35s?

    What a strange brain you have... nothing in the media = failure.

    By any chance are you a fan of twitter?

    Laid down on July 28, 2005 at the Admiralty Shipyards, will be assigned to Baltic fleet. Construction resumed on July 9th, 2013.

    Having problems reading?

    Please tell me the definition of the word resumed. For construction to have resumed... it must also have stopped. If it stopped in 2006 then construction time is 2 years.

    They should really cut their losses scrapp the faulty subs and begin with new or revised 636´s

    Except if they are not faulty. F-22 is suffocating pilots... scrap all 188 of them perhaps? Or just use your brains and work out a solution to the problem and don't be such a drama queen... you sound like a reporter.

    Thats what i meant, iam not so sure the future russian SS should be Lada, remeber its a totally different design then the Kilo with a mono hull.

    Mono hull means smaller and lighter and cheaper and more manouverable.

    Of course it is a different design to the Kilo... it is a new generation sub.

    Perhaps a new dubble hull sub will be easier to make work with AIP and everything.

    No.

    Do anyone know if there are other modern submarines with monohull?

    Almost all western subs are mono hulled.
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    Mike E

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  Mike E on Fri Oct 10, 2014 4:31 pm

    runaway wrote:
    Mike E wrote:Once again.... Kronshtadt has just recently resumed production, it spent many years in limbo, which explains the long construction time.... As for when it will be finished, I have no clue. 
    Only a couple of years... 
    That would be a huge mistake, *they are already building the 636, and they also need to look towards the future*.

    Thats what i meant, iam not so sure the future russian SS should be Lada, remeber its a totally different design then the Kilo with a mono hull.
    Perhaps a new dubble hull sub will be easier to make work with AIP and everything.
    Do anyone know if there are other modern submarines with monohull?


    Then you answered your own question... 
    Single-hulls are easier to design and work on.
    All Western subs, as GarryB noted.
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    runaway

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  runaway on Sat Oct 11, 2014 7:54 pm

    GarryB wrote:  
    Why on Earth would they scrap them?

    Because the design is obviously faulty, St Petersburg will not enter service, that should be proof enough.


    Or they could build Foxtrot class subs... they would be even easier to mass produce...
    They have spent large amounts of money to create a new SSK a generation ahead of the 636, why would they scrap them now and keep making 636s?

    Or Whiskey´s..
    Remember the Project 685 Plavnik? Just built in one example, and for a reason.


    Do you think they should also stop development of the PAK FA and just make lots more Su-35s and MiG-35s?

    The PAK-FA is not a faulty design, it keeps meeting performance criterias. You reason with mockery and sarcasm, i dont like that and it doesnt add to a good discussion.


    What a strange brain you have... nothing in the media = failure.
    By any chance are you a fan of twitter?

    When a submarine has been on the staples for 10 years, one should question if its a good project. And no i dont read twitters.

    Laid down on July 28, 2005 at the Admiralty Shipyards, will be assigned to Baltic fleet. Construction resumed on July 9th, 2013.
    Having problems reading?
    Please tell me the definition of the word resumed. For construction to have resumed... it must also have stopped. If it stopped in 2006 then construction time is 2 years..

    Do you seriously think the construction time is two years?


    Except if they are not faulty. F-22 is suffocating pilots... scrap all 188 of them perhaps? Or just use your brains and work out a solution to the problem and don't be such a drama queen... you sound like a reporter.

    The F22 should have been stopped long ago, as should the M551 sheridan have been. Instead the F22 is eating billions of dollars, and the Sheridan was of no use in service.

    Lets be clear, it takes more guts to cancel a faulty project then to pour in alot of money and end up with a not good end product. Its called prestige, and we can blame much to that.

    The new 636 is a top of the line submarine, and can certainly be used as a stopgap until a new design is ready for production. Like the T-90, T-95 and finally Armata.

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    Mike E

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  Mike E on Sat Oct 11, 2014 8:26 pm

    runaway wrote:
    GarryB wrote:  
    Why on Earth would they scrap them?

    Because the design is obviously faulty, St Petersburg will not enter service, that should be proof enough.


    Or they could build Foxtrot class subs... they would be even easier to mass produce...
    They have spent large amounts of money to create a new SSK a generation ahead of the 636, why would they scrap them now and keep making 636s?

    Or Whiskey´s..
    Remember the Project 685 Plavnik? Just built in one example, and for a reason.


    Do you think they should also stop development of the PAK FA and just make lots more Su-35s and MiG-35s?

    The PAK-FA is not a faulty design, it keeps meeting performance criterias. You reason with mockery and sarcasm, i dont like that and it doesnt add to a good discussion.


    What a strange brain you have... nothing in the media = failure.
    By any chance are you a fan of twitter?

    When a submarine has been on the staples for 10 years, one should question if its a good project. And no i dont read twitters.

    Laid down on July 28, 2005 at the Admiralty Shipyards, will be assigned to Baltic fleet. Construction resumed on July 9th, 2013.
    Having problems reading?
    Please tell me the definition of the word resumed. For construction to have resumed... it must also have stopped. If it stopped in 2006 then construction time is 2 years..

    Do you seriously think the construction time is two years?


    Except if they are not faulty. F-22 is suffocating pilots... scrap all 188 of them perhaps? Or just use your brains and work out a solution to the problem and don't be such a drama queen... you sound like a reporter.

    The F22 should have been stopped long ago, as should the M551 sheridan have been. Instead the F22 is eating billions of dollars, and the Sheridan was of no use in service.

    Lets be clear, it takes more guts to cancel a faulty project then to pour in alot of money and end up with a not good end product. Its called prestige, and we can blame much to that.

    The new 636 is a top of the line submarine, and can certainly be used as a stopgap until a new design is ready for production. Like the T-90, T-95 and finally Armata.

    The heck are you smoking?

    All of the so-called "faults" in the design have been resolved/fixed, this has been said enough already... If St Petersburg is never in active services, it would be because it is the lead ship, which was built without knowledge of problems for obvious reasons...

    Still haven't explained why they should only build one....

    The PAK-FA isn't flawless, then again neither is the Lada... 

    Funding was dropped for a long period of time, obviously it is going to be overlooked. Now that funding has returned, things are going steady and it will remain that way. 

    You don't get what he said... GarryB clearly meant that it has *only been in production for two years*. That being said, production time should be around two years, if not faster, because the 636 has a larger displacement. If the Kilo can be made in two years, so can the Lada, as long as everything is ready.

    The F-22 is the US Air Force's most successful project in recent times (F-35...), and most of its problems, including the oxygen related ones, have been fixed. The M551 was a great design with a crappy gun, with a 105 it would have been amazing...

    So, it takes guts to cancel a soon-to-be successful project and keep producing the older one? With new concepts come new risks, with your ideology, we'd still be living in caves!

    It is great, hence the large numbers of orders. However, it is aging and needs a replacement sooner than later (Lada!).
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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sat Oct 11, 2014 9:14 pm

    If nobody "has any idea" when the kronshtadt will be finished then there's something wrong. Ships in production usually have deadlines.
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    Mike E

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  Mike E on Sat Oct 11, 2014 9:17 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:If nobody "has any idea" when the kronshtadt will be finished then there's something wrong. Ships in production usually have deadlines.
    Not when it is a secretive project in general... I'm sure it could be found, but nobody wants to go look for it. - I'll take a couple of minutes...

    EDIT; It will be *commissioned* around the end of 2017 at the very latest.
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    runaway

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  runaway on Sat Oct 11, 2014 10:36 pm

    Mike E wrote:
    The heck are you smoking?

    All of the so-called "faults" in the design have been resolved/fixed, this has been said enough already... If St Petersburg is never in active services, it would be because it is the lead ship, which was built without knowledge of problems for obvious reasons...
    Really? So every lead ship is built without knowledge of problems, and some so grave the ship will never enter service? I agree every lead ship have Some problems, but none so bad it wont enter service, then its a much bigger problem. Design.



    The F-22 is the US Air Force's most successful project in recent times (F-35...), and most of its problems, including the oxygen related ones, have been fixed. The M551 was a great design with a crappy gun, with a 105 it would have been amazing...

    If you really think the M551 was a great design and with a 105 it would have been great, your lack of knowledge is amazing.

    (From military today and wiki)
    On March 1971, five Sheridans from the 11th ACR were lost in one day to RPG fire, all five vehicles burst into flames and were totally destroyed.[13] It became a common scene to observe melted Sheridan hulls with their sunken steel turrets sitting at odd angles with their gun tubes pointing towards the sky in various parts of the country.
    The aluminium armor was not good, it was very vulnerable and couldnt drive through trees as could the M48. Most opinions were negative,
    this was largely due to the high casualty rate of both Sheridans and their crews as mines and rocket-propelled grenades (RPGs) that would only damage an M48 Patton tank, would destroy the Sheridan and kill or wound most, if not all, of its crew

    It was a very innovative light tank design, however due to it's numerous faults the M551 Sheridans have been replaced in reconnaissance role with the M60A1 main battle tanks and later with the M3 Bradley armored reconnaissance vehicles.


    Several attempts to improve or replace the Sheridan have been made over the years since it was introduced. Several experimental versions of the Sheridan mounting a new turret carrying the NATO-standard 105mm gun were made, but the resulting recoil was so great as to make the vehicle almost unusable.



    And i still question if Lada will be a succes, i hope so, certainly. But maybe it would have been wiser to do a "Mike", or T-95. Cancel and Continue with the next step in evolution.


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    Mike E

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  Mike E on Sun Oct 12, 2014 12:26 am

    runaway wrote:
    Mike E wrote:
    The heck are you smoking?

    All of the so-called "faults" in the design have been resolved/fixed, this has been said enough already... If St Petersburg is never in active services, it would be because it is the lead ship, which was built without knowledge of problems for obvious reasons...
    Really? So every lead ship is built without knowledge of problems, and some so grave the ship will never enter service? I agree every lead ship have Some problems, but none so bad it wont enter service, then its a much bigger problem. Design.



    The F-22 is the US Air Force's most successful project in recent times (F-35...), and most of its problems, including the oxygen related ones, have been fixed. The M551 was a great design with a crappy gun, with a 105 it would have been amazing...

    If you really think the M551 was a great design and with a 105 it would have been great, your lack of knowledge is amazing.

    (From military today and wiki)
    On March 1971, five Sheridans from the 11th ACR were lost in one day to RPG fire, all five vehicles burst into flames and were totally destroyed.[13] It became a common scene to observe melted Sheridan hulls with their sunken steel turrets sitting at odd angles with their gun tubes pointing towards the sky in various parts of the country.
    The aluminium armor was not good, it was very vulnerable and couldnt drive through trees as could the M48. Most opinions were negative,
    this was largely due to the high casualty rate of both Sheridans and their crews as mines and rocket-propelled grenades (RPGs) that would only damage an M48 Patton tank, would destroy the Sheridan and kill or wound most, if not all, of its crew

    It was a very innovative light tank design, however due to it's numerous faults the M551 Sheridans have been replaced in reconnaissance role with the M60A1 main battle tanks and later with the M3 Bradley armored reconnaissance vehicles.


    Several attempts to improve or replace the Sheridan have been made over the years since it was introduced. Several experimental versions of the Sheridan mounting a new turret carrying the NATO-standard 105mm gun were made, but the resulting recoil was so great as to make the vehicle almost unusable.



    And i still question if Lada will be a succes, i hope so, certainly. But maybe it would have been wiser to do a "Mike", or T-95. Cancel and Continue with the next step in evolution.


    Not necessarily, but the Lada brings a lot of untested technology into the Russian diesel sub market.

    Maybe not amazing, but the ideology behind it was genius! - Light weight, lots of firepower, quick, air-drop capable... Its execution wasn't perfect, but what vehicle is? As for the 105, it should have been a low-recoil gun... They are widely available.

    Why question? Think of it as an improved 636!
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  GarryB on Sun Oct 12, 2014 11:11 am

    Because the design is obviously faulty, St Petersburg will not enter service, that should be proof enough.

    If it is obviously faulty then why are they keeping the original in service as a testing platform for new systems, and continuing to build the other two vessels laid down?

    When planning and developing a new complex system you have design objectives that you have no idea whether they can be met. with new systems you have to estimate and calculate but until the thing is actually built and tested you may never know its real world performance.

    There were requirements and specifications for the Lada sub and when the sub was finally built it was found it did not meet requirements in a couple of areas. Before the other two were built they were able to test the first and decide on new systems and parameters and solve the problems.

    the two new subs will get more powerful Lithium ion batteries and an indigenous AIP system to greatly improve performance... almost to SSN level in fact and your expert opinion is it is a failure?

    Remember the Project 685 Plavnik? Just built in one example, and for a reason.

    It was an operational test bed designed to test a range of new technologies... it was expensive to build, so when it was lost most of the new technologies were tested on other new sub designs and its design was cancelled as too ambitious.

    The Lada didn't sink, so information about what worked and what didn't and what needed improving and what was performing fine was collected and applied to the other two vessels in the class.


    The PAK-FA is not a faulty design, it keeps meeting performance criterias. You reason with mockery and sarcasm, i dont like that and it doesnt add to a good discussion.

    One PAK FA lost an engine and could not be displayed, and another caught fire... Cancel it immediately!


    When a submarine has been on the staples for 10 years, one should question if its a good project. And no i dont read twitters.

    I have never been to twitter, but it seems to be a website for insecure people who want to talk to anyone about their mundane lives. Is it because you have not heard constant updates about Lada that you think it is a failure?

    They have tested its AIP and it will be fitted to the other two Lada hulls... does that suggest they are failures?

    Do you seriously think the construction time is two years?

    Why not? You were happy to think it was 10 years... they aren't finished yet... if they enter service in 2017 that would mean 5 years construction, does that sound excessive?

    Its called prestige, and we can blame much to that.

    We certainly can, but cancelling a project when you spent all that money to actually make it work would be stupid if the final product is a generation ahead of everything else you have and you have a need for it.

    The new 636 is a top of the line submarine, and can certainly be used as a stopgap until a new design is ready for production. Like the T-90, T-95 and finally Armata.

    The problem there is that the T-95 was a cold war dead end, while Armata is a family of vehicles of a new concept.

    If they cancelled the Lada now and started from scratch developing a new sub using all new technologies they would develop... a Lada... it already uses new technologies and does everything they want it to do.

    It would be like having the T-90s in service and developing the Armata and then cancel the armata and make more T-90s for 10 years while you throw out the Armata design and come up with... an armata design that could be called Armata-M.

    The M551 was a great design with a crappy gun, with a 105 it would have been amazing...

    Ignoring the gun, which was a colossal waste of money and time, the Sheridan is basically what you get if you want an airborne armoured vehicle... for airborne forces given the choice of armour or walking I think the advantages of some armour protection and much better mobility is clear.

    It is pretty funny when the Discovery channel does a programme on the worlds best tanks and includes the Sheridan... Sprut is far superior...

    EDIT; It will be *commissioned* around the end of 2017 at the very latest.

    Boy, my guess above was pretty accurate.

    They are adding new batteries and a new AIP so the production time for the next vessels in the class should be quicker to make.

    Really? So every lead ship is built without knowledge of problems, and some so grave the ship will never enter service? I agree every lead ship have Some problems, but none so bad it wont enter service, then its a much bigger problem. Design.

    Look at the Kiev class ships... especially near the take off ramp... they spent a fortune trying to fix the air flow there with ramps and walls on all the vessels of that class, the last in the class had so many changes they wanted to call it Improved Kiev in the west.

    there are so many complex interactions in a modern vessel that problems will be expected... the question is, what sort of solutions are there and how easy are they to impliment... especially without creating new problems.

    It became a common scene to observe melted Sheridan hulls with their sunken steel turrets sitting at odd angles with their gun tubes pointing towards the sky in various parts of the country.

    The Sheridans gun used combustable propellent stubs made of cardboard that were an enormous fire risk. Storing ammo in the crew compartment any penetration showered the ammo with sparks leading to immediate ignition of the propellent... T-64 and T-80 have the same problem.

    Change to 105 would fix that.

    The aluminium armor was not good, it was very vulnerable and couldnt drive through trees as could the M48.

    Delivered by parachute the Sheridan is a useful light vehicle with a crap gun. the M48 would be a hole in the ground.


    Several attempts to improve or replace the Sheridan have been made over the years since it was introduced. Several experimental versions of the Sheridan mounting a new turret carrying the NATO-standard 105mm gun were made, but the resulting recoil was so great as to make the vehicle almost unusable.

    Even a 90mm gun would be an improvement over the 152mm gun it carried.

    Cancel and Continue with the next step in evolution.

    The Lada-M with LI Ion batteries and AIP IS THE NEXT STEP.


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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sun Oct 12, 2014 11:23 am

    5 years is exccessive for( by your definitions) a puny non strategic sub, especially if its not a lead ship. That's the time it should take a to build an entirely new class leader ballistic sub.

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    Re: Project 677: Lada class Submarine

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