Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Share
    avatar
    navyfield

    Posts : 193
    Points : 148
    Join date : 2013-05-27

    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  navyfield on Thu Sep 25, 2014 4:21 pm

    Stealthflanker wrote:
    navyfield wrote:
    thats basic physics ,unfortunately your brain is too small to understand that....
    and that other guy plus you 2 have no clue ,nore disproved any of my posts with facts but with your imaginary delusonal thinking...
    australians rejected aip for collins class -fact!
    now go kill yourselves... Razz

    Yea but they accept Soryu with AIP-Fact.

    aip on lada -megafailed! fact! it didnt increase the performance of lada over kilo at all ,and added cost and complexety.
    whole Lada class production for which navy had high expectations was stopped!
    soryu import has stirling engine for aip , so you need 3 engineers for stiling engine (its not a steam nor diesel engine) for 24h coverage, plus probably 2 engineers a shift so more then 6 so it adds crew and water oxygen weight space requirement.

    - and in the exercises some time ago certain officer was quoted as saying onyx had better then 400km range ,not 500+ km....
    avatar
    Mike E

    Posts : 2760
    Points : 2806
    Join date : 2014-06-19
    Location : Bay Area, CA

    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Mike E on Thu Sep 25, 2014 8:53 pm

    navyfield wrote:
    Stealthflanker wrote:
    navyfield wrote:
    thats basic physics ,unfortunately your brain is too small to understand that....
    and that other guy plus you 2 have no clue ,nore disproved any of my posts with facts but with your imaginary delusonal thinking...
    australians rejected aip for collins class -fact!
    now go kill yourselves... Razz

    Yea but they accept Soryu with AIP-Fact.

    aip on lada -megafailed! fact! it didnt increase the performance of lada over kilo at all ,and added cost and complexety.
    whole Lada class production for which navy had high expectations was stopped!
    soryu import has stirling engine for aip , so you need 3 engineers for stiling engine (its not a steam nor diesel engine) for 24h coverage, plus probably 2 engineers a shift so more then 6 so it adds crew and water oxygen weight space requirement.

    - and in the exercises some time ago certain officer was quoted as saying onyx had better then 400km range ,not 500+ km....
    Oh, did you know that the Lada was fixed *a while ago*? Any countries first venture into the world of AIP is going to have problems, just like with submarines on general (cough...China...cough). It actually does increase performance (time under water) as that is what AIP systems are meant to do! The added cost and complexity you complain about aren't substantial, and well worth having the AIP system in the first place...

    That is becuase it *had* problems... Now that they are fixed, all they need is a paycheck or two and the work shall continue/resume. Just look at how fast the Improved-Kilos are getting built, the Lada's should be built in a similar (fast) fashion.

    Are you really that stupid? If "it requires so much maintenance" and is "a pain in the butt" than WHY did they REQUEST the system in the first place? - Because they WANTED it!


    400+ could equal 500+... I'd bet all of my money the range is over 500 km, as that is what its older brother's range was....
    avatar
    Stealthflanker

    Posts : 800
    Points : 882
    Join date : 2009-08-04
    Age : 29
    Location : Indonesia

    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Stealthflanker on Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:53 pm

    navyfield wrote:
    aip on lada -megafailed! fact! it didnt increase the performance of lada over kilo at all ,and added cost and complexety.
    whole Lada class production for which navy had high expectations was stopped!

    News link ? I'm interested.
    Because from what i read here

    http://izvestia.ru/news/507580

    It's not related to AIP.

    Addenum:
    Did our lada here even have AIP in the first place ? Can't find any mention of it except that AIP module is offered as export option.

    This is Lada model



    can you point me out where is the AIP module is ?



    soryu import has stirling engine for aip , so you need 3 engineers for stiling engine (its not a steam nor diesel engine) for 24h coverage, plus probably 2 engineers a shift so more then 6
    Any reason why specialists are really needed instead re-certify already on board engineers ? So they can handle both type of engine.



    so it adds crew and water oxygen weight space requirement.

    Please address my previous point on U-212, why that submarine, with AIP.. Can be run with only crew of 27.. That's basically half of collins and around third of Soryu.  Did you see anything so called "Increasing space, weight requirement etc blablabla"  Over any sub not equipped with AIP ?

    If you're talking about what's might be increased is manning cost, not oxygen, weight and space requirement.
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16514
    Points : 17122
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  GarryB on Fri Sep 26, 2014 5:28 am

    aip on lada -megafailed! fact! it didnt increase the performance of lada over kilo at all ,and added cost and complexety.
    whole Lada class production for which navy had high expectations was stopped!

    AIP on first LADA vessel can't have failed... it never had one.

    They had the first LADA boat in the water and testing before the AIP was even ready and one of the conclusions was to put both Lithium Ion batteries AND the new AIP into the two other Lada subs that have been laid down but not completed till the first Lada had been tested.

    the new batteries and the the AIP wont have a full scale test till the other two Lada vessels... likely named Lada-M or possibly renamed because of the expected new performance.

    The first Lada built will be kept in service for testing new technology and the new Ladas will likely enter service when they finish testing.

    That is becuase it *had* problems... Now that they are fixed, all they need is a paycheck or two and the work shall continue/resume. Just look at how fast the Improved-Kilos are getting built, the Lada's should be built in a similar (fast) fashion.

    Not really. The Lada is a very capable boat and a generation ahead of Kilo in any version... its sensors are comparable to SSNs, though it lacks top speed and range.

    Once the two in development are ready and have completed testing however, mass production should not be too much of a problem.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

    Vann7

    Posts : 3472
    Points : 3584
    Join date : 2012-05-16

    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Vann7 on Fri Sep 26, 2014 5:33 am

    navyfield wrote:
    Stealthflanker wrote:
    navyfield wrote:
    thats basic physics ,unfortunately your brain is too small to understand that....
    and that other guy plus you 2 have no clue ,nore disproved any of my posts with facts but with your imaginary delusonal thinking...
    australians rejected aip for collins class -fact!
    now go kill yourselves... Razz

    Yea but they accept Soryu with AIP-Fact.

    aip on lada -megafailed! fact! it didnt increase the performance of lada over kilo at all ,and added cost and complexety.
    whole Lada class production for which navy had high expectations was stopped!
    soryu import has stirling engine for aip , so you need 3 engineers for stiling engine (its not a steam nor diesel engine) for 24h coverage, plus probably 2 engineers a shift so more then 6 so it adds crew and water oxygen weight space requirement.

    - and in the exercises some time ago certain officer was quoted as saying onyx had better then 400km range ,not 500+ km....

    P-1000 anti-ship missiles that Peter the great Kirov class have have ~700km range.. Kh-55 anti-ship misisles have
    2,500km range , what makes you think the 400km+ mark is a record for Russia.. thats nothing.. Kalibers anti-ship missiles (NATO codename "Sizzler") have 660km range . Check by yourself .

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3M-54_Klub

    The Kalibrs land version , one Russian navy commander from caspian sea told it was 3,600km range.. in other words Russia can launch attack from Crimea and they can hit any part of middle east or North africa that is from any of the latest attack submarines of Russia.




    avatar
    navyfield

    Posts : 193
    Points : 148
    Join date : 2013-05-27

    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  navyfield on Fri Sep 26, 2014 5:56 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    aip on lada -megafailed! fact! it didnt increase the performance of lada over kilo at all ,and added cost and complexety.
    whole Lada class production for which navy had high expectations was stopped!

    AIP on first LADA vessel can't have failed... it never had one.

    They had the first LADA boat in the water and testing before the AIP was even ready and one of the conclusions was to put both Lithium Ion batteries AND the new AIP into the two other Lada subs that have been laid down but not completed till the first Lada had been tested.

    the new batteries and the the AIP wont have a full scale test till the other two Lada vessels... likely named Lada-M or possibly renamed because of the expected new performance.

    The first Lada built will be kept in service for testing new technology and the new Ladas will likely enter service when they finish testing.

    That is becuase it *had* problems... Now that they are fixed, all they need is a paycheck or two and the work shall continue/resume. Just look at how fast the Improved-Kilos are getting built, the Lada's should be built in a similar (fast) fashion.

    Not really. The Lada is a very capable boat and a generation ahead of Kilo in any version... its sensors are comparable to SSNs, though it lacks top speed and range.

    Once the two in development are ready and have completed testing however, mass production should not be too much of a problem.
    yes it did , so they did as i predicted they added aditional battery pack +and but a  smaller aip -fuel cell , for which they have experience and technology since it was used in ussr space program since late 60s. K-OH electrolyte + h2 + o2 pumped trough graphyte bars. there is a book about it in "man in space" by komrakov and some others i remember long time ago i read about it.
    ofcourse he cant see it- its at the bottom and not visible in the model Razz
    avatar
    navyfield

    Posts : 193
    Points : 148
    Join date : 2013-05-27

    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  navyfield on Fri Sep 26, 2014 6:03 pm

    hydrogen can be very explosive and hydrogen and oxygen can leak ,so they are put in tanks outside of pressure hull...
    avatar
    Stealthflanker

    Posts : 800
    Points : 882
    Join date : 2009-08-04
    Age : 29
    Location : Indonesia

    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Stealthflanker on Fri Sep 26, 2014 6:07 pm

    navyfield wrote:hydrogen can be very explosive and hydrogen and oxygen can leak ,so they are put in tanks outside of pressure hull...

    I guess you have better cross sectional diagram then ? Show me.

    Or please, stop making pointless bullshit.
    avatar
    navyfield

    Posts : 193
    Points : 148
    Join date : 2013-05-27

    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  navyfield on Fri Sep 26, 2014 6:16 pm

    avatar
    Stealthflanker

    Posts : 800
    Points : 882
    Join date : 2009-08-04
    Age : 29
    Location : Indonesia

    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Stealthflanker on Fri Sep 26, 2014 6:24 pm


    And where is so called Oxygen or Hydrogen tank there ?

    What type of AIP module they installed ?

    I found your article hard to believe because Russian AIP module is like this.



    There both the oxygen and hydrogen tank is inside the pressure hull.

    My conclusion.. The article got mixed up with Optional AIP offer for export.
    avatar
    navyfield

    Posts : 193
    Points : 148
    Join date : 2013-05-27

    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  navyfield on Fri Sep 26, 2014 6:31 pm

    hmmm ,nope , it is confusing , but this is amur- export model i think ,and it has AIP - as section block , as an add-on,  because its optional for customer, so customer can ask for standard amur ssk ,or amur with aip-added in as a vertical section , in case submarines are build with integrated fuel cell aip -from the start- it looks without huge oxygen tank and design is different . Wink
    avatar
    Stealthflanker

    Posts : 800
    Points : 882
    Join date : 2009-08-04
    Age : 29
    Location : Indonesia

    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Stealthflanker on Fri Sep 26, 2014 6:34 pm

    navyfield wrote:hmmm ,nope , it is confusing , but this is amur- export model i think ,and it has AIP - as section block , as an add-on,  because its optional for customer, so customer can ask for standard amur ssk ,or amur with aip-added in as a vertical section , in case submarines are build with integrated fuel cell aip -from the start- it looks without huge oxygen tank and design is different . Wink

    SO you're basically lying when saying Lada's AIP failed ? When in fact it has none..

    Good..son..Very good.

    Next time i won't spent my time on you.
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16514
    Points : 17122
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  GarryB on Sat Sep 27, 2014 10:24 am

    yes it did , so they did as i predicted they added aditional battery pack +and but a smaller aip -fuel cell , for which they have experience and technology

    Idiot.

    Their fuel cell technology doesn't use hydrogen... it uses diesel fuel, so making a smaller fuel cell makes no sense... on western hydrogen fuel cells it is the hydrogen and oxygen that takes up lots of room and creates the potentially lethal explosive situation.

    hydrogen can be very explosive and hydrogen and oxygen can leak ,so they are put in tanks outside of pressure hull...

    Idiot. Hydrogen needs oxygen to burn and liquid oxygen under pressure in exactly the right mix to explode. Liquid oxygen on the other hand will make anything that will burn explode... burn rate of most fuels is dependent on the rate at which you can get oxygen to the fuel...

    I found your article hard to believe because Russian AIP module is like this.

    Amur is a for export sub and that AIP is for export only too.



    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    Viktor

    Posts : 5669
    Points : 6312
    Join date : 2009-08-25
    Age : 36
    Location : Croatia

    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Viktor on Wed Oct 01, 2014 8:36 pm

    avatar
    Stealthflanker

    Posts : 800
    Points : 882
    Join date : 2009-08-04
    Age : 29
    Location : Indonesia

    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Stealthflanker on Wed Oct 01, 2014 9:15 pm


    Ah so it's started and Russian AIP won't use metal hydrate hydrogen storage as Germans but using reformer instead to produce hydrogen for fuel cell.

    One consideration i see from this kind of AIP is that reformation of diesel fuel to hydrogen is expected to be more complex than other option such as methanol, another thing is that there might be concern that Carbon Dioxide or other gaseous byproduct might be produced during reformation that might be poisoning the fuel cell catalyst (Though seems unlikely because by using reformer i expect Russian fuel cell would have higher operating temperature than German cells, thus more resistant to carbon dioxide poisoning) Nonetheless those byproducts must be disposed.

    Disposal can be done through some sort of scrubber system which will diffuse CO2 with sea water, this process however may impose some penalty to the AIP's own power because it has to offset against back pressure in depth.

    The benefit is of course lighter weight and logistical easiness as the only thing need to be carefully handled is liquid oxygen.
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16514
    Points : 17122
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  GarryB on Thu Oct 02, 2014 10:51 am

    The last article I read about it, the Russian AIP generates about 4 times more power than the western hydrogen based equivalent.

    The enormous advantage of using diesel as the AIP fuel source is that every port in the world is already rigged to supply diesel and store diesel and handle diesel. Very few are set up to handle hydrogen.

    This means that for export Russian subs with AIP the infrastructure to support their operation is already in place...


    That is huge....


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16514
    Points : 17122
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Lada and AIP Technology

    Post  GarryB on Tue Oct 07, 2014 12:22 am


    Which confirms what we said about the Lada class:

    The first boat of the project "St. Petersburg" was built with classic power plant and is currently continuing the test. Two other boats of this project are still at the stage of completion of construction, and, perhaps, they will be tested first anaerobic systems.

    The first Lada class sub did not have an AIP system but the new system the Russians have developed will be fitted into the next two Lada class subs that were laid down but not completed so they can have AIP and Lithium Ion batteries added before they are complete.



    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    runaway

    Posts : 348
    Points : 369
    Join date : 2010-11-12
    Location : Sweden

    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  runaway on Thu Oct 09, 2014 7:46 pm

    Its very quite about Lada subs, is the remaining two back in production or scrapped? St petersburg, she doesnt bring home any prices or attention, seems a failure.
    New torpedos also seems a long way of, and the only solution seems to be to keep building 636 Kilo, cause otherwise the entire SS fleet will soon be obselete and old.
    Lucky the SSNG and SSBN fleet is modernising and highly capable.

    Kronshtadt (B-586)
    Laid down on July 28, 2005 at the Admiralty Shipyards, will be assigned to Baltic fleet. Construction resumed on July 9th, 2013.[4] Sevastopol (B-587)
    Come on, been in production for soon 10 years!
    They should really cut their losses scrapp the faulty subs and begin with new or revised 636´s
    avatar
    Mike E

    Posts : 2760
    Points : 2806
    Join date : 2014-06-19
    Location : Bay Area, CA

    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Mike E on Thu Oct 09, 2014 8:12 pm

    runaway wrote:Its very quite about Lada subs, is the remaining two back in production or scrapped? St petersburg, she doesnt bring home any prices or attention, seems a failure.
    New torpedos also seems a long way of, and the only solution seems to be to keep building 636 Kilo, cause otherwise the entire SS fleet will soon be obselete and old.
    Lucky the SSNG and SSBN fleet is modernising and highly capable.

    Kronshtadt (B-586)
    Laid down on July 28, 2005 at the Admiralty Shipyards, will be assigned to Baltic fleet. Construction resumed on July 9th, 2013.[4] Sevastopol (B-587)
    Come on, been in production for soon 10 years!
    They should really cut their losses scrapp the faulty subs and begin with new or revised 636´s

    From what I've heard, most of the issues have been solved with the Lada. Now it is more the issue of finding both time and money, as the Russian naval industry is gettin' pretty busy. Sankt Petersburg has been in service for a short while, so you can't really call it a "failure". As for the new torpedoes, a recent report said that they are very close to reaching production. - Nothing to worry about there. They *are* building the 636, and as that design will reach obsolescence decades before the Lada, there isn't much reason in building any more. After all the production orders for the 636 have been satisfied, I assume the production rate of the Lada/Amur will increase dramatically. - Price will go done etc. 

    Once again.... Kronshtadt has just recently resumed production, it spent many years in limbo, which explains the long construction time.... As for when it will be finished, I have no clue. 
    Only a couple of years... 
    That would be a huge mistake, *they are already building the 636, and they also need to look towards the future*.
    avatar
    runaway

    Posts : 348
    Points : 369
    Join date : 2010-11-12
    Location : Sweden

    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  runaway on Fri Oct 10, 2014 12:46 pm

    Mike E wrote:Once again.... Kronshtadt has just recently resumed production, it spent many years in limbo, which explains the long construction time.... As for when it will be finished, I have no clue. 
    Only a couple of years... 
    That would be a huge mistake, *they are already building the 636, and they also need to look towards the future*.

    Thats what i meant, iam not so sure the future russian SS should be Lada, remeber its a totally different design then the Kilo with a mono hull.
    Perhaps a new dubble hull sub will be easier to make work with AIP and everything.
    Do anyone know if there are other modern submarines with monohull?

    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16514
    Points : 17122
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  GarryB on Fri Oct 10, 2014 1:00 pm

    Its very quite about Lada subs, is the remaining two back in production or scrapped?

    Why on Earth would they scrap them?

    New torpedos also seems a long way of, and the only solution seems to be to keep building 636 Kilo, cause otherwise the entire SS fleet will soon be obselete and old.

    Or they could build Foxtrot class subs... they would be even easier to mass produce...

    They have spent large amounts of money to create a new SSK a generation ahead of the 636, why would they scrap them now and keep making 636s?

    Do you think they should also stop development of the PAK FA and just make lots more Su-35s and MiG-35s?

    What a strange brain you have... nothing in the media = failure.

    By any chance are you a fan of twitter?

    Laid down on July 28, 2005 at the Admiralty Shipyards, will be assigned to Baltic fleet. Construction resumed on July 9th, 2013.

    Having problems reading?

    Please tell me the definition of the word resumed. For construction to have resumed... it must also have stopped. If it stopped in 2006 then construction time is 2 years.

    They should really cut their losses scrapp the faulty subs and begin with new or revised 636´s

    Except if they are not faulty. F-22 is suffocating pilots... scrap all 188 of them perhaps? Or just use your brains and work out a solution to the problem and don't be such a drama queen... you sound like a reporter.

    Thats what i meant, iam not so sure the future russian SS should be Lada, remeber its a totally different design then the Kilo with a mono hull.

    Mono hull means smaller and lighter and cheaper and more manouverable.

    Of course it is a different design to the Kilo... it is a new generation sub.

    Perhaps a new dubble hull sub will be easier to make work with AIP and everything.

    No.

    Do anyone know if there are other modern submarines with monohull?

    Almost all western subs are mono hulled.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    Mike E

    Posts : 2760
    Points : 2806
    Join date : 2014-06-19
    Location : Bay Area, CA

    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Mike E on Fri Oct 10, 2014 4:31 pm

    runaway wrote:
    Mike E wrote:Once again.... Kronshtadt has just recently resumed production, it spent many years in limbo, which explains the long construction time.... As for when it will be finished, I have no clue. 
    Only a couple of years... 
    That would be a huge mistake, *they are already building the 636, and they also need to look towards the future*.

    Thats what i meant, iam not so sure the future russian SS should be Lada, remeber its a totally different design then the Kilo with a mono hull.
    Perhaps a new dubble hull sub will be easier to make work with AIP and everything.
    Do anyone know if there are other modern submarines with monohull?


    Then you answered your own question... 
    Single-hulls are easier to design and work on.
    All Western subs, as GarryB noted.
    avatar
    runaway

    Posts : 348
    Points : 369
    Join date : 2010-11-12
    Location : Sweden

    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  runaway on Sat Oct 11, 2014 7:54 pm

    GarryB wrote:  
    Why on Earth would they scrap them?

    Because the design is obviously faulty, St Petersburg will not enter service, that should be proof enough.


    Or they could build Foxtrot class subs... they would be even easier to mass produce...
    They have spent large amounts of money to create a new SSK a generation ahead of the 636, why would they scrap them now and keep making 636s?

    Or Whiskey´s..
    Remember the Project 685 Plavnik? Just built in one example, and for a reason.


    Do you think they should also stop development of the PAK FA and just make lots more Su-35s and MiG-35s?

    The PAK-FA is not a faulty design, it keeps meeting performance criterias. You reason with mockery and sarcasm, i dont like that and it doesnt add to a good discussion.


    What a strange brain you have... nothing in the media = failure.
    By any chance are you a fan of twitter?

    When a submarine has been on the staples for 10 years, one should question if its a good project. And no i dont read twitters.

    Laid down on July 28, 2005 at the Admiralty Shipyards, will be assigned to Baltic fleet. Construction resumed on July 9th, 2013.
    Having problems reading?
    Please tell me the definition of the word resumed. For construction to have resumed... it must also have stopped. If it stopped in 2006 then construction time is 2 years..

    Do you seriously think the construction time is two years?


    Except if they are not faulty. F-22 is suffocating pilots... scrap all 188 of them perhaps? Or just use your brains and work out a solution to the problem and don't be such a drama queen... you sound like a reporter.

    The F22 should have been stopped long ago, as should the M551 sheridan have been. Instead the F22 is eating billions of dollars, and the Sheridan was of no use in service.

    Lets be clear, it takes more guts to cancel a faulty project then to pour in alot of money and end up with a not good end product. Its called prestige, and we can blame much to that.

    The new 636 is a top of the line submarine, and can certainly be used as a stopgap until a new design is ready for production. Like the T-90, T-95 and finally Armata.

    avatar
    Mike E

    Posts : 2760
    Points : 2806
    Join date : 2014-06-19
    Location : Bay Area, CA

    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Mike E on Sat Oct 11, 2014 8:26 pm

    runaway wrote:
    GarryB wrote:  
    Why on Earth would they scrap them?

    Because the design is obviously faulty, St Petersburg will not enter service, that should be proof enough.


    Or they could build Foxtrot class subs... they would be even easier to mass produce...
    They have spent large amounts of money to create a new SSK a generation ahead of the 636, why would they scrap them now and keep making 636s?

    Or Whiskey´s..
    Remember the Project 685 Plavnik? Just built in one example, and for a reason.


    Do you think they should also stop development of the PAK FA and just make lots more Su-35s and MiG-35s?

    The PAK-FA is not a faulty design, it keeps meeting performance criterias. You reason with mockery and sarcasm, i dont like that and it doesnt add to a good discussion.


    What a strange brain you have... nothing in the media = failure.
    By any chance are you a fan of twitter?

    When a submarine has been on the staples for 10 years, one should question if its a good project. And no i dont read twitters.

    Laid down on July 28, 2005 at the Admiralty Shipyards, will be assigned to Baltic fleet. Construction resumed on July 9th, 2013.
    Having problems reading?
    Please tell me the definition of the word resumed. For construction to have resumed... it must also have stopped. If it stopped in 2006 then construction time is 2 years..

    Do you seriously think the construction time is two years?


    Except if they are not faulty. F-22 is suffocating pilots... scrap all 188 of them perhaps? Or just use your brains and work out a solution to the problem and don't be such a drama queen... you sound like a reporter.

    The F22 should have been stopped long ago, as should the M551 sheridan have been. Instead the F22 is eating billions of dollars, and the Sheridan was of no use in service.

    Lets be clear, it takes more guts to cancel a faulty project then to pour in alot of money and end up with a not good end product. Its called prestige, and we can blame much to that.

    The new 636 is a top of the line submarine, and can certainly be used as a stopgap until a new design is ready for production. Like the T-90, T-95 and finally Armata.

    The heck are you smoking?

    All of the so-called "faults" in the design have been resolved/fixed, this has been said enough already... If St Petersburg is never in active services, it would be because it is the lead ship, which was built without knowledge of problems for obvious reasons...

    Still haven't explained why they should only build one....

    The PAK-FA isn't flawless, then again neither is the Lada... 

    Funding was dropped for a long period of time, obviously it is going to be overlooked. Now that funding has returned, things are going steady and it will remain that way. 

    You don't get what he said... GarryB clearly meant that it has *only been in production for two years*. That being said, production time should be around two years, if not faster, because the 636 has a larger displacement. If the Kilo can be made in two years, so can the Lada, as long as everything is ready.

    The F-22 is the US Air Force's most successful project in recent times (F-35...), and most of its problems, including the oxygen related ones, have been fixed. The M551 was a great design with a crappy gun, with a 105 it would have been amazing...

    So, it takes guts to cancel a soon-to-be successful project and keep producing the older one? With new concepts come new risks, with your ideology, we'd still be living in caves!

    It is great, hence the large numbers of orders. However, it is aging and needs a replacement sooner than later (Lada!).
    avatar
    KomissarBojanchev

    Posts : 1184
    Points : 1337
    Join date : 2012-08-05
    Age : 19
    Location : Varna, Bulgaria

    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sat Oct 11, 2014 9:14 pm

    If nobody "has any idea" when the kronshtadt will be finished then there's something wrong. Ships in production usually have deadlines.

    Sponsored content

    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:29 am