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    Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

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    navyfield

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  navyfield on Tue Sep 02, 2014 6:35 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    I didn't know that! So is it sure they are going to restart the production?

    You can run as many computer simulations as you like but at the end of the day the only way to test a design is to build it and put it in the water.

    they tested the first Lada and found some problems, which they worked on and fixed... the solutions will be applied to the two Lada-M boats that were started after the first one was tested.

    the new boats will have new batteries and new AIP and might even be given a different name... but they will be completed.

    Any alternative does not exist and would need to start from a clean sheet of paper and even then there are not guarantees it will work as expected either, but will not be in service for 12-15 years...


    AIP is new marketing gimmick like stealth for aircraft ,it can be beneffitial but.... you could just use that space for extra batteries.
    And all this new equipment drains even more power- plus more crew- plus even more power neded continuosly for life support.
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    navyfield

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  navyfield on Tue Sep 02, 2014 6:40 pm

    Mike E wrote:Nobody has any thoughts on my idea? Rolling Eyes

    with increased size you do need more power and become a bigger and noisier target ,plus you already can pack enough torpedoes or missiles for their size.
    conventional subs are for coastal and sea areas and ambush tactics or some close interception to get weapons in range...
    No need for them to chase ships or nuclear subs -theyll never catch them.
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    magnumcromagnon

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Tue Sep 02, 2014 7:04 pm

    navyfield wrote:
    Mike E wrote:Nobody has any thoughts on my idea? Rolling Eyes

    with increased size you do need more power and become a bigger and noisier target ,plus you already can pack enough torpedoes or missiles for their size.
    conventional subs are for coastal and sea areas and ambush tactics or some close interception to get weapons in range...
    No need for them to chase ships or nuclear subs -theyll never catch them.

    Unless you have torpedo tube-sized mini-sub that's supersonic due to supercavitation bubble.
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    navyfield

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  navyfield on Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:51 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    navyfield wrote:
    Mike E wrote:Nobody has any thoughts on my idea? Rolling Eyes

    with increased size you do need more power and become a bigger and noisier target ,plus you already can pack enough torpedoes or missiles for their size.
    conventional subs are for coastal and sea areas and ambush tactics or some close interception to get weapons in range...
    No need for them to chase ships or nuclear subs -theyll never catch them.

    Unless you have torpedo tube-sized mini-sub that's supersonic due to supercavitation bubble.
    with very short range. tongue
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    Mike E

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Mike E on Tue Sep 02, 2014 10:11 pm

    navyfield wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    I didn't know that! So is it sure they are going to restart the production?

    You can run as many computer simulations as you like but at the end of the day the only way to test a design is to build it and put it in the water.

    they tested the first Lada and found some problems, which they worked on and fixed... the solutions will be applied to the two Lada-M boats that were started after the first one was tested.

    the new boats will have new batteries and new AIP and might even be given a different name... but they will be completed.

    Any alternative does not exist and would need to start from a clean sheet of paper and even then there are not guarantees it will work as expected either, but will not be in service for 12-15 years...


    AIP is new marketing gimmick like stealth for aircraft ,it can be beneffitial but.... you could just use that space for extra batteries.
    And all this new equipment drains even more power- plus more crew- plus even more power neded continuosly for life support.

    Oh please... AIP is anything but a gimmick, even though it isn't a game-changer.
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    Mike E

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Mike E on Tue Sep 02, 2014 10:17 pm

    navyfield wrote:
    Mike E wrote:Nobody has any thoughts on my idea? Rolling Eyes

    with increased size you do need more power and become a bigger and noisier target ,plus you already can pack enough torpedoes or missiles for their size.
    conventional subs are for coastal and sea areas and ambush tactics or some close interception to get weapons in range...
    No need for them to chase ships or nuclear subs -theyll never catch them.
    That is some bad ideology you got there... So what, make it a little bigger! Extending is the easiest possible way to enlarge the sub, it barely adds weight and the extra room could hold larger engines, more fuel etc.
    Yeah, but that is like saying carriers are only useful for sending planes to sink other carriers, just because that is what they've done in the past.
    They aren't meant for that... In case you didn't notice, nuclear cubs are louder than diesels, so they would most likely be cruising at a lower speed to limit their opponent's advantage... The idea is that the Lada-E (my name for it) can sneak up on large convoys, as their noise will be cancelled out by convoy itself, and will then continue to launch both their torpedoes and missiles at the target...
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    GarryB

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  GarryB on Wed Sep 03, 2014 6:52 am

    AIP is new marketing gimmick like stealth for aircraft ,it can be beneffitial but.... you could just use that space for extra batteries.

    An AIP is a type of battery.

    The western AIPs use stored hydrogen to create electricity to charge the batteries.

    The new Russian AIP uses diesel fuel to generate electricity to charge the batteries underwater without needing to surface...

    And all this new equipment drains even more power- plus more crew- plus even more power neded continuosly for life support.

    The crew size does not change with the added AIP.

    Adding new batteries would add a huge amount of extra weight which would require more power to move through the water.

    with very short range.

    The export models have short range...



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    navyfield

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  navyfield on Thu Sep 04, 2014 5:52 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    AIP is new marketing gimmick like stealth for aircraft ,it can be beneffitial but.... you could just use that space for extra batteries.

    An AIP is a type of battery.

    The western AIPs use stored hydrogen to create electricity to charge the batteries.

    The new Russian AIP uses diesel fuel to generate electricity to charge the batteries underwater without needing to surface...
    aip is not battery is a type of electricity generating system without oxygen and it is expencive complicates everything needs more space adds weight and needs more crew
    And all this new equipment drains even more power- plus more crew- plus even more power neded continuosly for life support.

    The crew size does not change with the added AIP.

    Adding new batteries would add a huge amount of extra weight which would require more power to move through the water.
    so does aip so??
    with very short range.

    The export models have short range...
    still too short compared to conventional 50-100km torpedoes
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    Mike E

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Mike E on Thu Sep 04, 2014 11:17 pm

    By "battery" he probably meant a "battery regeneration" system that charges the battery or similar. Don't forget there are different versions and types of AIP.
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    Stealthflanker

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Stealthflanker on Fri Sep 05, 2014 4:11 am

    navyfield wrote:
    aip is not battery is a type of electricity generating system without oxygen and it is expencive complicates everything needs more space adds weight and needs more crew

    That's a nuclear reactor.

    Current AIP in non-nuclear submarine system still use oxygen in shape of LOX, be it MESMA, CCD, fuel cell and stirling engine.

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    GarryB

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  GarryB on Fri Sep 05, 2014 1:14 pm

    aip is not battery is a type of electricity generating system without oxygen and it is expencive complicates everything needs more space adds weight and needs more crew


    Hahaha... just look at the terminology... AIP uses in the west a hydrogen fuel CELL. A battery in the west is also called a dry CELL.

    A battery uses a chemical reaction between acidic or other fluids or solids and metals like the lead battery in your car to generate electricity. Metals are often used because they shed electrons easily and an electric current is a free flow of electrons.

    A Hydrogen fuel cell uses a chemical reaction that converts hydrogen gas into water with the by product of heat and water... and electricity.

    Perhaps you should look up the English term "like".

    Means similar but not identical to.

    The addition of a fuel cell in the Lada-M does not change the crew size.

    Sure it is not cheap but these subs are state of the art and it is still cheaper than a nuclear power plant.

    And a hydrogen fuel cell does need stored hydrogen and stored oxygen to work... you can't make water with hydrogen alone...

    so does aip so??

    Russian AIP does not use hydrogen, it uses existing diesel supply on the boat to generate electricity to charge batteries while submerged and it isn't that heavy.

    still too short compared to conventional 50-100km torpedoes

    Domestic rocket propelled torpedoes have what range exactly?



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    navyfield

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  navyfield on Sun Sep 07, 2014 12:41 pm

    Stealthflanker wrote:
    navyfield wrote:
    aip is not battery is a type of electricity generating system without oxygen and it is expencive complicates everything needs more space adds weight and needs more crew

    That's a nuclear reactor.

    Current AIP in non-nuclear submarine system still use oxygen in shape of LOX, be it MESMA, CCD, fuel cell and stirling engine.

    i should have said air ,or precise -oxygen from the air.
    but i thought you would get it.
    but ,you didnt. Neutral
    you can call it whatever you like msekskdfcbieqwjn , the underlying physics for generating power is the important.
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    Stealthflanker

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Stealthflanker on Sun Sep 07, 2014 9:56 pm

    navyfield wrote:
    i should have said air ,or precise -oxygen from the air.
    but i thought you would get it.
    but ,you didnt. Neutral
    you can call it whatever you like msekskdfcbieqwjn , the underlying physics for generating power is the important.

    Then ? Why don't we see U-212 with its AIP system...Does it have more crew than any comparable diesel-electric boat without AIP ?

    The only AIP that add significant weight and additional manning is nuclear reactor, which exactly fit what you previously described.

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    Mike E

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Mike E on Sun Sep 07, 2014 11:44 pm

    navyfield wrote:
    Stealthflanker wrote:
    navyfield wrote:
    aip is not battery is a type of electricity generating system without oxygen and it is expencive complicates everything needs more space adds weight and needs more crew

    That's a nuclear reactor.

    Current AIP in non-nuclear submarine system still use oxygen in shape of LOX, be it MESMA, CCD, fuel cell and stirling engine.

    i should have said air ,or precise -oxygen from the air.
    but i thought you would get it.
    but ,you didnt. Neutral
    you can call it whatever you like msekskdfcbieqwjn , the underlying physics for generating power is the important.
    GarryB said it the best... Go read his reply again.
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    navyfield

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  navyfield on Tue Sep 09, 2014 11:01 pm

    Stealthflanker wrote:
    navyfield wrote:
    i should have said air ,or precise -oxygen from the air.
    but i thought you would get it.
    but ,you didnt. Neutral
    you can call it whatever you like msekskdfcbieqwjn , the underlying physics for generating power is the important.

    Then ? Why don't we see U-212 with its AIP system...Does it have more crew than any comparable diesel-electric boat without AIP ?

    The only AIP that add significant weight and additional manning is nuclear reactor, which exactly fit what you previously described.

    no its not but i cant help you limited mind...
    you need oxygen too for fuel cell. you can pump hydrogen all day and will never get the power, you need oxygen liquid or compressed form.
    you should know australians thought about ading aip to ocean going colins class ssk ,and deemed it not worth enough, with 30min of snorkeling they could recharge batteries and aip was not needed ,once you deplete aip its dead weight carried around, aip is not some magic and its usefulnes is arguable.
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    Mike E

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Mike E on Wed Sep 10, 2014 1:08 am

    navyfield wrote:
    Stealthflanker wrote:
    navyfield wrote:
    i should have said air ,or precise -oxygen from the air.
    but i thought you would get it.
    but ,you didnt. Neutral
    you can call it whatever you like msekskdfcbieqwjn , the underlying physics for generating power is the important.

    Then ? Why don't we see U-212 with its AIP system...Does it have more crew than any comparable diesel-electric boat without AIP ?

    The only AIP that add significant weight and additional manning is nuclear reactor, which exactly fit what you previously described.

    no its not but i cant help you limited mind...
    you need oxygen too for fuel cell. you can pump hydrogen all day and will never get the power, you need oxygen liquid or compressed form.
    you should know australians thought about ading aip to ocean going colins class ssk ,and deemed it not worth enough, with 30min of snorkeling they could recharge batteries and aip was not needed ,once you deplete aip its dead weight carried around, aip is not some magic and its usefulnes is arguable.
    You're kidding.... RIGHT? 
     - Ever heard of Desalination? Submarines "desal" units should produce enough O2 for the fuel cell, and fuel cells don't need oxygen, they need an oxidizer. 
     - Probably has to do with the fact that the Collins-class is absolutely terrible (honesty), and is getting old. - It isn't worth it, and Australia's newest sub will have AIP.
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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Stealthflanker on Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:28 pm

    navyfield wrote:
    no its not but i cant help you limited mind...
    you need oxygen too for fuel cell. you can pump hydrogen all day and will never get the power, you need oxygen liquid or compressed form.
    you should know australians thought about ading aip to ocean going colins class ssk ,and deemed it not worth enough, with 30min of snorkeling they could recharge batteries and aip was not needed ,once you deplete aip its dead weight carried around, aip is not some magic and its usefulnes is arguable.

    Bullshit. Australians strongly considered Soryu class and that sub comes in with AIP by default.

    And i wonder if you're already out of steam ? First you're spitting shit about AIP increase manning requirements which makes it your #1Bullshit and now you're spitting your #2bullshit about AIP is not useful.

    Go read some news my dear.

    Mike E wrote:
    - Ever heard of Desalination? Submarines "desal" units should produce enough O2 for the fuel cell, and fuel cells don't need oxygen, they need an oxidizer.

    This is a misconception.

    Producing Oxygen out of water requires enormous power, impractical for diesel powered submarine. Currently such oxygen generator is only available in nuclear submarine who can provide necessary power for it.


    Diesel submarine with AIP however stores Oxygen for its AIP in Liquid oxygen, that's what essentially all submarine with AIP do. There are other options such as using oxygen candle but dangerous as it's flammable and not practiced.

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Mike E on Thu Sep 18, 2014 7:28 pm

    Stealthflanker wrote:
    Mike E wrote:
    - Ever heard of Desalination? Submarines "desal" units should produce enough O2 for the fuel cell, and fuel cells don't need oxygen, they need an oxidizer.

    This is a misconception.

    Producing Oxygen out of water requires enormous power, impractical for diesel powered submarine. Currently such oxygen generator is only available in nuclear submarine who can provide necessary power for it.


    Diesel submarine with AIP however stores Oxygen for its AIP in Liquid oxygen, that's what essentially all submarine with AIP do. There are other options such as using oxygen candle but dangerous as it's flammable and not practiced.


    True, but they do come with smaller units don't they? 

    They could possibly use other kinds of oxidizers (more dense?) at the cost of safety (depends).
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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Stealthflanker on Thu Sep 18, 2014 7:50 pm

    Mike E wrote:

    True, but they do come with smaller units don't they? 

    They could possibly use other kinds of oxidizers (more dense?) at the cost of safety (depends).

    Well the constraint is power that required to break up the oxygen from water, not the size of the device. So far however no other alternative except that electrolyzer.

    So the Liquid oxygen storage will remain the most efficient solution for foreseeable future.
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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  navyfield on Sun Sep 21, 2014 9:40 pm

    Mike E wrote:By "smaller" I meant less power consuming.
    thats basic physics ,unfortunately your brain is too small to understand that....
    and that other guy plus you 2 have no clue ,nore disproved any of my posts with facts but with your imaginary delusonal thinking...
    australians rejected aip for collins class -fact!
    now go kill yourselves... Razz
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    Mike E

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Mike E on Sun Sep 21, 2014 11:14 pm

    navyfield wrote:
    Mike E wrote:By "smaller" I meant less power consuming.
    thats basic physics ,unfortunately your brain is too small to understand that....
    and that other guy plus you 2 have no clue ,nore disproved any of my posts with facts but with your imaginary delusonal thinking...
    australians rejected aip for collins class -fact!
    now go kill yourselves... Razz
    You're a pain, do you know that? How in the name of Earth does this discussion have anything to do with physics?

    Look in the mirror....

    Yes, because the Collins is a crappy sub that would not benefit from AIP. More important though, Australia's future subs will be equipped with AIP!

    Right back at you... Twisted Evil
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    GarryB

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  GarryB on Tue Sep 23, 2014 10:13 am


    australians rejected aip for collins class -fact

    Australia is a minor regional power with no rivals possessing any significant anti SSK capability to require expensive AIP technology being added to a sub already roundly criticised as being rather a dog.

    the fact they weren't interested in spending good money after bad is meaningless to any of your points.


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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Stealthflanker on Tue Sep 23, 2014 9:39 pm

    navyfield wrote:
    thats basic physics ,unfortunately your brain is too small to understand that....
    and that other guy plus you 2 have no clue ,nore disproved any of my posts with facts but with your imaginary delusonal thinking...
    australians rejected aip for collins class -fact!
    now go kill yourselves... Razz

    Yea but they accept Soryu with AIP-Fact.

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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  navyfield on Thu Sep 25, 2014 5:21 pm

    Stealthflanker wrote:
    navyfield wrote:
    thats basic physics ,unfortunately your brain is too small to understand that....
    and that other guy plus you 2 have no clue ,nore disproved any of my posts with facts but with your imaginary delusonal thinking...
    australians rejected aip for collins class -fact!
    now go kill yourselves... Razz

    Yea but they accept Soryu with AIP-Fact.

    aip on lada -megafailed! fact! it didnt increase the performance of lada over kilo at all ,and added cost and complexety.
    whole Lada class production for which navy had high expectations was stopped!
    soryu import has stirling engine for aip , so you need 3 engineers for stiling engine (its not a steam nor diesel engine) for 24h coverage, plus probably 2 engineers a shift so more then 6 so it adds crew and water oxygen weight space requirement.

    - and in the exercises some time ago certain officer was quoted as saying onyx had better then 400km range ,not 500+ km....
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    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Mike E on Thu Sep 25, 2014 9:53 pm

    navyfield wrote:
    Stealthflanker wrote:
    navyfield wrote:
    thats basic physics ,unfortunately your brain is too small to understand that....
    and that other guy plus you 2 have no clue ,nore disproved any of my posts with facts but with your imaginary delusonal thinking...
    australians rejected aip for collins class -fact!
    now go kill yourselves... Razz

    Yea but they accept Soryu with AIP-Fact.

    aip on lada -megafailed! fact! it didnt increase the performance of lada over kilo at all ,and added cost and complexety.
    whole Lada class production for which navy had high expectations was stopped!
    soryu import has stirling engine for aip , so you need 3 engineers for stiling engine (its not a steam nor diesel engine) for 24h coverage, plus probably 2 engineers a shift so more then 6 so it adds crew and water oxygen weight space requirement.

    - and in the exercises some time ago certain officer was quoted as saying onyx had better then 400km range ,not 500+ km....
    Oh, did you know that the Lada was fixed *a while ago*? Any countries first venture into the world of AIP is going to have problems, just like with submarines on general (cough...China...cough). It actually does increase performance (time under water) as that is what AIP systems are meant to do! The added cost and complexity you complain about aren't substantial, and well worth having the AIP system in the first place...

    That is becuase it *had* problems... Now that they are fixed, all they need is a paycheck or two and the work shall continue/resume. Just look at how fast the Improved-Kilos are getting built, the Lada's should be built in a similar (fast) fashion.

    Are you really that stupid? If "it requires so much maintenance" and is "a pain in the butt" than WHY did they REQUEST the system in the first place? - Because they WANTED it!


    400+ could equal 500+... I'd bet all of my money the range is over 500 km, as that is what its older brother's range was....

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