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    Mistral News thread

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    magnumcromagnon
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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Jun 20, 2015 6:37 am

    Vladimir79 wrote:

    We didn't sign anything major this year.  France stomped us on the export front.
    The French order book is quickly approaching ours.  


    You also said that about the Rafale deal for India. Very Happy ...BTW do you honestly believe the U.S. will allow France to muscle in on it's share of the arms market of NATO states and affiliated states?

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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Jun 20, 2015 12:09 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    We didn't sign anything major this year.  France stomped us on the export front.  When a contract is signed, a large payment is forwarded or financing is arranged.  Either way they log massive numbers, not to mention it is logged on top of what they normally do.

    and what deals did France sign? neither India nor Poland did. After signature of contract a part is signed but not all of course. Unless military deals are so different from regular never 100% is prepaid something 20-30 by signing if any.

    Anyway in case you described $50bln  hit Russian accounts already.

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    The French order book is quickly approaching ours.  

    We are talking 15 vs 50. So true they are bigger then previously but not nearly close to Russia yet.

    Do they aggressively push sales ? yes they do. Everybody does, Russia inclusive. IMHO 4 big deals is not better than 20 smaller ones. Next year Poland and India unlikely will sign another  3bln deals with France.

    My point is -  you are to pessimistic, situation is not perfect but also there is no reason yet to be ¨kurdining¨ Smile Next eyar will show if France keeps so  high sales and Russia not. IMHO current trend will not stay.


    BTW as for Poland I am sure they are not that rich (well frankly they still can starve next portion  of population because, as Polish MEP Korwin-Mikke said - traditionally 10% goes to pockets of decision makers, continuously concerned by Polish security  :-)

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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sun Jun 21, 2015 3:10 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:

    You also said that about the Rafale deal for India. Very Happy ...BTW do you honestly believe the U.S. will allow France to muscle in on it's share of the arms market of NATO states and affiliated states?

    Yes, France has already edged out the US on major GCC contracts thanks to Obama's pussy policy. The F-35 is a dud and the Rafale is selling like hot cakes. NATO is broke so relying on those nations for exports is a lose-lose.


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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  sepheronx on Sun Jun 21, 2015 3:23 am

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:

    You also said that about the Rafale deal for India. Very Happy ...BTW do you honestly believe the U.S. will allow France to muscle in on it's share of the arms market of NATO states and affiliated states?

    Yes, France has already edged out the US on major GCC contracts thanks to Obama's pussy policy. The F-35 is a dud and the Rafale is selling like hot cakes.  NATO is broke so relying on those nations for exports is a lose-lose.    

    Rafale selling like hot cakes?  You sure about that?  List of countries purchasing Rafale is pretty low.  Biggest buyers are people seeking political maneuvers more than anything else.  It isn't a bad jet but over expensive for what you get.  So they may be able to reach the high values of Russian contracts, but with less actual sales of products.

    Not to mention, they sell a lot of gear to former French colonies and allied nations.  Russia just sells to whomever.

    If one looks at what France used to sell vs now, their sales are not nearly what it used to be, but that goes for pretty much everyone as well.  Russia (USSR in this case) used to give it on credit back in the day.  They still do now to some countries.

    India's contract with Russia on FGFA dwarfs Frances most deals and almost comes close to the entirety of that $15B total.

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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  par far on Mon Jun 22, 2015 6:32 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:

    Of course I might  be not correct but if I sign a contract, today, to sell 24 Su-35 with delivery  in 2020 then

    1) I add now $2 bln to a portfolio but exported nothing yet.
    2) I  get transfer for delivery in 2020 so I add $2 bln to exported results and deduct from portfolio.

    France did not export anything yet but added to portfolio $15bln.  I mean is supposed to add cause neither Indian nor Polish deals are not inked yet.

    Russia portfolio is over $50bln as Sputnik claims and last year export (ie shipments of goodies and transfers received) was on level of $15,5bln.

    Contracts close to sign by Russia? lately Egypt
    46 MiG-35 ~$2bln
    pending $1bln + S-300

    Still pending deal with iraq for $4,2bln-  

    I did not dig  anything though about deals with India wrt helos and Ils of China. Remember there is still June.

    We didn't sign anything major this year.  France stomped us on the export front.  When a contract is signed, a large payment is forwarded or financing is arranged.  Either way they log massive numbers, not to mention it is logged on top of what they normally do.


    Summing up - French are waning around about export but they sing just contrast to portfolio... comparing 15 France to 50+ Russian still looks rather dwarfey. But France 24 is lying on purpose -you know Russians are drunkards and loosers because IIWW was won by French imperial army Smile

    The French order book is quickly approaching ours.  




    Russia's "order book" can add another $10-$12 billion if starts selling weapons to Iran(the sanctions are a hurdle but if the sanctions are lifted, you can expect Russian arms companies in Iran like bees on honey). Iran's air force needs serious modernization(well their army and navy can use upgrades as weell but the air force is the big issue). I think will probably go for the Su 30ms or Su 35s(don't know what they would go for). I think Iran can be a gold mine if Russia decides to sell them weapons.

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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  Russian Patriot on Mon Jun 22, 2015 7:24 pm

    Update on What replaces Mistral :http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/russia/2015/russia-150620-sputnik01.htm?_m=3n%2e002a%2e1449%2edd0ao031i6%2e1bx8

    Priboy and Lavin projects

    max steel
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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  max steel on Mon Jun 22, 2015 8:47 pm

    India-France rafale deal is already DEAD . They are buying only 36 or 12 jets in ready to use condition. That's it .

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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  OminousSpudd on Mon Jun 22, 2015 11:47 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    Yes, France has already edged out the US on major GCC contracts thanks to Obama's pussy policy. The F-35 is a dud and the Rafale is selling like hot cakes.  NATO is broke so relying on those nations for exports is a lose-lose.

    The countries that are buying the F-35 have already paid for them due to Lockheed Martin's marketing scheme.That money is not going to magically materialise so they can buy Rafales off of France.


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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  Rmf on Sat Jun 27, 2015 1:14 pm

    why is russia so hesitant about mistral.
    just an example , russia signed contract with iran for delivery of s-300 pmu-1 division for 800 million, received advanced payment about 20% 160 mill.

    since they didnt deliver Iran sued Russia in geneva court for 4 billion !! even after russia returned advanced payment of 160 mill.
    now iran is geting even beter antei-2500./.
    so sue France sue their ass everywhere for 10 billion. and advanced payment return.

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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Jun 27, 2015 3:44 pm

    Rmf wrote:why is russia so hesitant about mistral.
    just an example , russia signed contract with iran for delivery of s-300 pmu-1 division for 800 million, received advanced payment about 20% 160 mill.

    since they didnt deliver Iran sued Russia in geneva court for 4 billion !! even after russia returned advanced payment of 160 mill.
    now iran is geting even beter antei-2500./.
    so sue France sue their ass everywhere for 10 billion. and advanced payment return.

    so you think that any western based court would role in favor of Russia? What I can see any court would seize property or request Russia to pay France, like in Yukos case. there is no law only law of jungle. The stronger Russia is the less problems with mickey mouse tribunals or other Hague based stuff

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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  Cplnew83 on Sat Jun 27, 2015 6:49 pm

    I've flown from Brest to Marseille on Thursday, over St Nazaire (no cloud) we were still "low" and I've seen the two Russian ships. Felt sad about this aborted contract : Let's hope that finally VMF will receive the two BPC.

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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  Russian Patriot on Sun Jun 28, 2015 5:02 am

    Cplnew83 wrote:I've flown from Brest to Marseille on Thursday, over St Nazaire (no cloud) we were still "low" and I've seen the two Russian ships. Felt sad about this aborted contract : Let's hope that finally VMF will receive the two BPC.

    Unlikely by the information in post 954 the Navy has two replacement projects.

    BTW can we move the raffle conversation to Air Force section ? - Mod

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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  Rmf on Sun Jun 28, 2015 7:49 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Rmf wrote:why is russia so hesitant about mistral.
    just an example , russia signed contract with iran for delivery of s-300 pmu-1 division for 800 million, received advanced payment about 20% 160 mill.

    since they didnt deliver Iran sued Russia in geneva court for 4 billion !! even after russia returned advanced payment of 160 mill.
    now iran is geting even beter antei-2500./.
    so sue France sue their ass everywhere for 10 billion. and advanced payment return.

    so you think that any western based court would role in favor of Russia? What I can see any court would seize property or request Russia to pay France, like in Yukos case. there is no law only law of jungle. The stronger Russia is the less problems with mickey mouse tribunals or other Hague based stuff
    so>? who cares!!!
    this is open and shut case for Russia . its a good way for those courts to dicredit themselves i would sue them in every court imaginable , ... and in russian court! Wink
    after western court dismiss cases , russian court will rule in favour of russian side. Idea
    and then after win in russia , seize their property for 10 billion!

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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  JohninMK on Thu Jul 02, 2015 11:11 am

    MOSCOW (Sputnik) – Paris and Moscow have preliminarily agreed on compensation for France’s non-delivery of the Mistral-class helicopter carriers and will continue consultations in July, a source in the military technical cooperation said Thursday.

    “Russia and France were unable to agree on a preliminary compensation for the non-delivery of the Mistrals in June. ‘Preliminary’ because the decision needs to be approved now by the governments of both countries,” the source told RIA Novosti. He said that the next stage in consultations would be held in July.

    Earlier, the press reported that France was apparently prepared to return approximately 800 million euros to Moscow, however, Moscow has insisted on 1.1 billion euros in compensation.


    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/world/20150702/1024113744.html#ixzz3eivOi9ik

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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  George1 on Thu Jul 02, 2015 1:23 pm

    Russia to sign final document on Mistral helicopter carriers within month — official

    In the middle of June, a high-ranking official from the military and defense sphere told TASS that Russia still does not rule out the possibility that Mistral helicopter carriers will be delivered

    ST. PETERSBURG, July 2. /TASS/. Russia plans within a month to sign the final document on the destiny of the Mistral class helicopter carriers it ordered in France, Russian presidential aide for military-technical cooperation Vladimir Kozhin told TASS on Thursday.

    "Virtually all issues have already been settled. The final document will be signed in the short run," Kozhin said.

    Answering a question on when the document signing will take place, he said: "Within a month." Kozhin earlier said that Russia is working on settling the issue with returning money for Mistrals.

    The Ђ1.12-billion contract to build the Mistral amphibious assault ships for the Russian Navy was signed in June 2011. In case it is not implemented, France will have to pay Russia a penalty fee.

    The first Mistral, the Vladivostok, was floated in October 2013. It was expected to be handed over to Russia by the French side in autumn 2014, but the handover did not take place due to the situation in Ukraine. The second Mistral, the Sevastopol, was to be delivered to Russia in October 2015, but the deal was suspended as well.

    France suspended the delivery of Mistrals to Russia as part of a package of sanctions the European countries imposed on Moscow for what they claimed was its alleged role in destabilization of east Ukraine. Russia has constantly dismissed allegations that Moscow could in any way be involved in hostilities in Ukraine’s east. Russian Deputy Prime Minister Rogozin said on May 9 that France can’t make decisions on the sale of Mistral helicopter carriers without Russia’s consent as the Russian Federation has the end user certificate.

    Previous reports suggested that the French side was ready to pay compensation to Russia if the helicopter carriers are not delivered. Moscow has repeatedly said that it would be satisfied with any option - either the ships or money. In early June, Kozhin said that he hoped that the situation with the Mistral warships would be resolved during the summer. Russia wants to have all expenses related to production of the ships to be covered, he said.

    In the middle of June, a high-ranking official from the military and defense sphere told TASS that Russia still does not rule out the possibility that Mistral helicopter carriers will be delivered.


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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  JohninMK on Wed Jul 08, 2015 1:57 pm

    Looks like it is all over bar the trip to the bank.

    The two Mistral-class helicopter carriers built for the Russian Navy will not be delivered to Russia and the cancellation of the contract could cost Paris $1.3 billion, French Defense Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian said on Monday.

    Editor-in-chief of the Russian National Defense magazine Igor Korotchenko called this amount a more reasonable compensation than the ones previously voiced by French officials. Earlier, France said it was ready to pay $880 million while Moscow insisted on a compensation amounting to $1.2 billion. "The $1.3 billion compensation the French minister mentioned is better than previous French offers. The matter will be settled during the ongoing bilateral consultations," Korotchenko said, adding that this is the only viable solution since France is not independent in making key military and political decisions. "All the necessary funds [for the termination of the deal] France transfers to Russia should be used for purchasing large landing craft carries, which will be better for the Russian Navy than Mistrals," Korotchenko noted.

    Earlier in July, a source told RIA Novosti that Paris and Moscow reached a preliminarily agreement on the compensation for France's non-delivery of the Mistrals and would continue consultations in July.

    In 2011, Russia and France signed a $1.5-billion contract on the delivery of two Mistral-class helicopter carriers. Paris refused to fulfill its side of the deal accusing Moscow of meddling in the Ukrainian affairs, a claim that Russia has repeatedly denied.

    In April, French President Francois Hollande said Paris would return Moscow's payment for the warships if the contract was terminated.

    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/military/20150708/1024352339.html#ixzz3fIg2LP6J

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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed Jul 08, 2015 6:02 pm

    JohninMK wrote:Looks like it is all over bar the trip to the bank.

    The two Mistral-class helicopter carriers built for the Russian Navy will not be delivered to Russia and the cancellation of the contract could cost Paris $1.3 billion, French Defense Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian said on Monday.

    Editor-in-chief of the Russian National Defense magazine Igor Korotchenko called this amount a more reasonable compensation than the ones previously voiced by French officials. Earlier, France said it was ready to pay $880 million while Moscow insisted on a compensation amounting to $1.2 billion. "The $1.3 billion compensation the French minister mentioned is better than previous French offers. The matter will be settled during the ongoing bilateral consultations," Korotchenko said, adding that this is the only viable solution since France is not independent in making key military and political decisions. "All the necessary funds [for the termination of the deal] France transfers to Russia should be used for purchasing large landing craft carries, which will be better for the Russian Navy than Mistrals," Korotchenko noted.

    Earlier in July, a source told RIA Novosti that Paris and Moscow reached a preliminarily agreement on the compensation for France's non-delivery of the Mistrals and would continue consultations in July.

    In 2011, Russia and France signed a $1.5-billion contract on the delivery of two Mistral-class helicopter carriers. Paris refused to fulfill its side of the deal accusing Moscow of meddling in the Ukrainian affairs, a claim that Russia has repeatedly denied.

    In April, French President Francois Hollande said Paris would return Moscow's payment for the warships if the contract was terminated.

    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/military/20150708/1024352339.html#ixzz3fIg2LP6J

    What a sickening joke, Paris purposely neglected to mention they have a massive penalty to pay for not delivering! Those EscarGauls think they're slicker than a can of oil lol... lol1

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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  medo on Wed Jul 08, 2015 7:49 pm

    Russia need to prolong those negotiations and not accept any agreement for two years. After that time Marine Le Pen will become new president and her government will deliver ships to Russia and maybe even pay some penalties for good relations. Hollande will not be reelected, he made too much damage to France.

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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  Werewolf on Wed Jul 08, 2015 8:36 pm

    medo wrote:Russia need to prolong those negotiations and not accept any agreement for two years. After that time Marine Le Pen will become new president and her government will deliver ships to Russia and maybe even pay some penalties for good relations. Hollande will not be reelected, he made too much damage to France.

    I hope you are right about Le Pen, but i have no trust in this dictatorship and their vassals, they will select who they want, there won't be an election.

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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  Cplnew83 on Wed Jul 08, 2015 9:07 pm

    medo wrote:Russia need to prolong those negotiations and not accept any agreement for two years. After that time Marine Le Pen will become new president and her government will deliver ships to Russia and maybe even pay some penalties for good relations. Hollande will not be reelected, he made too much damage to France.

    Amen !

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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  ExBeobachter1987 on Wed Jul 08, 2015 9:50 pm

    medo wrote:Russia need to prolong those negotiations and not accept any agreement for two years. After that time Marine Le Pen will become new president and her government will deliver ships to Russia and maybe even pay some penalties for good relations. Hollande will not be reelected, he made too much damage to France.

    The ships are not worth two years additional drama.

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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  medo on Wed Jul 08, 2015 10:08 pm

    ExBeobachter1987 wrote:
    medo wrote:Russia need to prolong those negotiations and not accept any agreement for two years. After that time Marine Le Pen will become new president and her government will deliver ships to Russia and maybe even pay some penalties for good relations. Hollande will not be reelected, he made too much damage to France.

    The ships are not worth two years additional drama.

    It's not about ships, it's about princips and politics and yes, they are worth of it. Here is far more in the game than those two ships. Receiving them after two years of waiting is just a bonus. With a change in France, Germany will follow and US will lost its influence in Europe. Those two ships are just one of the tools to help Le Pen to replace Hollande and to change the course.

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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  JohninMK on Thu Jul 09, 2015 12:42 am

    medo wrote:
    ExBeobachter1987 wrote:
    medo wrote:Russia need to prolong those negotiations and not accept any agreement for two years. After that time Marine Le Pen will become new president and her government will deliver ships to Russia and maybe even pay some penalties for good relations. Hollande will not be reelected, he made too much damage to France.

    The ships are not worth two years additional drama.

    It's not about ships, it's about princips and politics and yes, they are worth of it. Here is far more in the game than those two ships. Receiving them after two years of waiting is just a bonus. With a change in France, Germany will follow and US will lost its influence in Europe. Those two ships are just one of the tools to help Le Pen to replace Hollande and to change the course.
    As I see it the Russian Navy needs those two ships like a hole in the head. Much better to have the money back, especially as the $ are worth far more once converted to roubles than when Russia converted its roubles into $ to pay for them. Then it will spend that larger number of roubles in Russia on things, not necessarily ships, that it needs now. In some ways it has turned into a brilliant financial deal. That will please the US no end.

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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  franco on Tue Jul 14, 2015 12:13 am

    Tentative deal reached apparently, just need Putin and Holland to sign off;
    http://www.businessinsider.com/france-and-russia-reached-deal-over-mistral-ship-2015-7?ref=yfp

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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:42 am

    franco wrote:Tentative deal reached apparently, just need Putin and Holland to sign off;
    http://www.businessinsider.com/france-and-russia-reached-deal-over-mistral-ship-2015-7?ref=yfp

    For future reference, no one should ever cite business insider and it's 'Red Scare' Joseph McCarthy style agit-prop themed articles.

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