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    sepheronx
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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  sepheronx on Sun Aug 16, 2009 8:08 pm

    soldieroffortune wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:
    soldieroffortune wrote:
    Vladimir79 wrote:
    soldieroffortune wrote:

    Sir Grand Marshal,

    The problem is (and it is a serious one): can the Russian industry build right now a comparable vessel for its Navy? There are many indication that unfortunately it is not so. What do you think?

    Comperable... definetly not unless you have 20 years to wait. Problem with the naval industry and large ships is corruption = Sevmash. As we have seen from the Gorshkov deal, it is broken from the top down. They can't even maintain the boilers on Admiral K. Maybe there is hope in the Far East yards, but then it is the Far East, king of abuse and corruption. The most corrupt part of our forces is Navy, so quite frankly I don't trust them to do much of anything.

    That's sad; corruption is still the key problem, maybe even more than before. On the other hand, Russia cannot rely solely on other countries when it comes to the arms for her Armed Forces. Since the "furniture salesman" took over the Defense Ministry I see the tendency of favoring buying arms and supplies instead of producing them.


    Corruption is a sad part of most industries in the world. Problem with Russia's was after the fall of the USSR, there was an over supply of defense industries and no one knew where what was going, and many closed down or went bankrupt (cause Russia tried to keep them all running). Once one was left, then problems arise. If Russia decided (since a lot of these companies are still state run) to move them to private (completely), then a companies main goal is "moola" and in order to get that, is constant R&D and sales. Once the other facility is done, production can increase, thus the sales could become more frequent.

    Somehow I doubt that during WW2 there was corruption in this area ...

    Yeah, because in WW2, Soviet Union was a dictatorship with an aggressive leader who killed a lot of his own people.

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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  soldieroffortune on Sun Aug 16, 2009 8:21 pm

    sepheronx wrote:
    soldieroffortune wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:
    soldieroffortune wrote:
    Vladimir79 wrote:
    soldieroffortune wrote:

    Sir Grand Marshal,

    The problem is (and it is a serious one): can the Russian industry build right now a comparable vessel for its Navy? There are many indication that unfortunately it is not so. What do you think?

    Comperable... definetly not unless you have 20 years to wait. Problem with the naval industry and large ships is corruption = Sevmash. As we have seen from the Gorshkov deal, it is broken from the top down. They can't even maintain the boilers on Admiral K. Maybe there is hope in the Far East yards, but then it is the Far East, king of abuse and corruption. The most corrupt part of our forces is Navy, so quite frankly I don't trust them to do much of anything.

    That's sad; corruption is still the key problem, maybe even more than before. On the other hand, Russia cannot rely solely on other countries when it comes to the arms for her Armed Forces. Since the "furniture salesman" took over the Defense Ministry I see the tendency of favoring buying arms and supplies instead of producing them.


    Corruption is a sad part of most industries in the world. Problem with Russia's was after the fall of the USSR, there was an over supply of defense industries and no one knew where what was going, and many closed down or went bankrupt (cause Russia tried to keep them all running). Once one was left, then problems arise. If Russia decided (since a lot of these companies are still state run) to move them to private (completely), then a companies main goal is "moola" and in order to get that, is constant R&D and sales. Once the other facility is done, production can increase, thus the sales could become more frequent.

    Somehow I doubt that during WW2 there was corruption in this area ...

    Yeah, because in WW2, Soviet Union was a dictatorship with an aggressive leader who killed a lot of his own people.

    True he did that as well as many other crimes, however since 1991 the population of Russia shrunk by what - 15 million people?

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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  Russian Patriot on Mon Aug 17, 2009 12:21 am

    sepheronx wrote:
    soldieroffortune wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:
    soldieroffortune wrote:
    Vladimir79 wrote:
    soldieroffortune wrote:

    Sir Grand Marshal,

    The problem is (and it is a serious one): can the Russian industry build right now a comparable vessel for its Navy? There are many indication that unfortunately it is not so. What do you think?

    Comperable... definetly not unless you have 20 years to wait. Problem with the naval industry and large ships is corruption = Sevmash. As we have seen from the Gorshkov deal, it is broken from the top down. They can't even maintain the boilers on Admiral K. Maybe there is hope in the Far East yards, but then it is the Far East, king of abuse and corruption. The most corrupt part of our forces is Navy, so quite frankly I don't trust them to do much of anything.

    That's sad; corruption is still the key problem, maybe even more than before. On the other hand, Russia cannot rely solely on other countries when it comes to the arms for her Armed Forces. Since the "furniture salesman" took over the Defense Ministry I see the tendency of favoring buying arms and supplies instead of producing them.


    Corruption is a sad part of most industries in the world. Problem with Russia's was after the fall of the USSR, there was an over supply of defense industries and no one knew where what was going, and many closed down or went bankrupt (cause Russia tried to keep them all running). Once one was left, then problems arise. If Russia decided (since a lot of these companies are still state run) to move them to private (completely), then a companies main goal is "moola" and in order to get that, is constant R&D and sales. Once the other facility is done, production can increase, thus the sales could become more frequent.

    Somehow I doubt that during WW2 there was corruption in this area ...

    Yeah, because in WW2, Soviet Union was a dictatorship with an aggressive leader who killed a lot of his own people.

    okay ,even though Stalin killed my great grand parents (followers of Lenin), most of the people didn;t know this and lived happy under his leadership.

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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  Turk1 on Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:19 am

    Russian technology is so far behind the West, they don't have any choice but to buy Western. Look at the bright side, at least you won't have an obselete force.

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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  soldieroffortune on Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:55 am

    Turk1 wrote:Russian technology is so far behind the West, they don't have any choice but to buy Western. Look at the bright side, at least you won't have an obselete force.

    Not all of the Russian technology is behind the West. It is amazing that Russia/USSR managed to create its own technology, - not true for many other countries which always bought "Western technology"

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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  Vladimir79 on Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:52 am

    Turk1 wrote:Russian technology is so far behind the West, they don't have any choice but to buy Western. Look at the bright side, at least you won't have an obselete force.

    Some places it is behind, some places it is ahead. What we don't make better, we will buy and make it better. You should know all about this being from Turkiye. You buy everything under license.

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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  soldieroffortune on Mon Aug 17, 2009 6:05 am

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    Turk1 wrote:Russian technology is so far behind the West, they don't have any choice but to buy Western. Look at the bright side, at least you won't have an obselete force.

    Some places it is behind, some places it is ahead. What we don't make better, we will buy and make it better. You should know all about this being from Turkiye. You buy everything under license.

    ... including some of the Russian military hardware ... (helicopters?)

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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  sepheronx on Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:12 am

    soldieroffortune wrote:
    Vladimir79 wrote:
    Turk1 wrote:Russian technology is so far behind the West, they don't have any choice but to buy Western. Look at the bright side, at least you won't have an obselete force.

    Some places it is behind, some places it is ahead. What we don't make better, we will buy and make it better. You should know all about this being from Turkiye. You buy everything under license.

    ... including some of the Russian military hardware ... (helicopters?)

    Space based communication sats can have better technology in it then most westerns. Radar systems are usually better. Super computers used in current military units are quite advanced and far better then some western countries.

    Russia is just another competitor. Where they find weakness, they will build on it.

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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  Turk1 on Sat Aug 22, 2009 7:12 pm

    soldieroffortune wrote:
    Turk1 wrote:Russian technology is so far behind the West, they don't have any choice but to buy Western. Look at the bright side, at least you won't have an obselete force.

    Not all of the Russian technology is behind the West. It is amazing that Russia/USSR managed to create its own technology, - not true for many other countries which always bought "Western technology"

    ALL Russian technology is behind the West, especially the US. Their army is stuck in a 1970s time warp.

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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  Vladimir79 on Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:44 pm

    Russia set to purchase large French warship - top brass



    ULAN BATOR, August 26 (RIA Novosti) - Russia is planning on signing by the end of 2009 a contractual agreement with France on the purchase of a Mistral class amphibious assault ship, the chief of the Russian General Staff said on Wednesday.

    "We are planning to reach an agreement [with France] this year on the production and the purchase of a Mistral class vessel," Gen. Nikolai Makarov told a news conference in the Mongolian capital, Ulan Bator.

    "We are negotiating the purchase of one ship at present, and later planning to acquire 3-4 ships [of the same class] to be jointly built in Russia," the general said.

    A Mistral class ship is capable of transporting and deploying 16 helicopters, four landing barges, up to 70 vehicles including 13 main battle tanks, and 450 soldiers. The vessel is equipped with a 69-bed hospital and could be used as an amphibious command ship.

    Makarov did not disclose the amount of the deal, but a high-ranking Russian source close to negotiations earlier said the ship could be worth between 300 and 400 million euros ($430-580 mln).

    The purchase, if successful, would be the first large-scale arms import deal concluded by Russia since the collapse of the Soviet Union.

    Russia first expressed an interest in bilateral cooperation with France in naval equipment and technology in 2008, when Navy chief Adm. Vladimir Vysotsky visited the Euronaval 2008 arms show in France.

    The admiral said at the time that the Russian Navy was interested in "joint research and also direct purchases of French naval equipment."

    According to other military sources, the possibility of buying a Mistral class amphibious assault ship was discussed at the naval show in St. Petersburg in June this year.

    Russia's current weapons procurement program through 2015 does not envision construction or purchases of large combat ships, so the possible acquisition of a French Mistral class ship is most likely to happen under the new program for the years up to 2020, which is still in the development.

    http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20090826/155931865.html

    sepheronx
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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:28 pm

    [quote="Turk1"]
    soldieroffortune wrote:
    Turk1 wrote:Russian technology is so far behind the West, they don't have any choice but to buy Western. Look at the bright side, at least you won't have an obselete force.

    Not all of the Russian technology is behind the West. It is amazing that Russia/USSR managed to create its own technology, - not true for many other countries which always bought "Western technology"

    Edit: I think I am done talking to you.

    I am not going to hold another breath for you.

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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  Turk1 on Wed Aug 26, 2009 9:48 pm

    sepheronx wrote:

    Edit: I think I am done talking to you.

    I am not going to hold another breath for you.

    I don't think I was talking to you. Is your name soldierofortune? Didn't think so.

    sepheronx
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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  sepheronx on Thu Aug 27, 2009 2:54 am

    Turk1 wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:

    Edit: I think I am done talking to you.

    I am not going to hold another breath for you.

    I don't think I was talking to you. Is your name soldierofortune? Didn't think so.

    No, but you are not really talking to anyone, all you are doing is blatantly attacking people and saying crap that isn't true for both attention and purposely starting flame wars. I think you need your head examined.

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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  Vladimir79 on Fri Aug 28, 2009 1:04 pm

    French ship Pugacheva
    28.08.2009

    The agreement to purchase French class amphibious assault ship, Mistral, and licenses it can be concluded before the end of the year. In Russia, construction license "Mistral" can do belongs to the senator Sergey Pugachev.

    Plan to buy class amphibious assault ship Mistral in France is officially recognized by the Ministry of Defense. Yesterday, in Mongolia, Chief of General Staff Nikolai Makarov, said (quoted by ITAR-TASS): "We are in negotiations to end of the year to reach the contractual obligations that will produce and purchase the ship type" Mistral ".

    Treasury officials left without comment the question of financing the purchase of the ship.

    So far, continued Makarov, this is one ship, but is expected to establish and production, to produce a series of four or five. Makarov gave assurances that the ships of this class (now they produce France and the Netherlands) proved to be positive during the service.

    Makarov also acknowledged that the Defense Ministry plans to purchase up to eight sets of equipment, an infantryman of the future "Felin French production - for testing.

    It is expected that in November, one of the French ships of the type "Mistral" will arrive in St. Petersburg on a visit there with him will be able to see more specialists, says the editor of the French military and strategic newsletter TTU Arnaud Kalika. French state shipyard DCNS, which build these ships, Russia is ready to transfer the license for the construction of "Mistral," says Kalika, but the first ship will be purchased in France. French Navy received two such ships, and another is in an unfinished state - the thing that will sell in Russia.

    According to the Kalika, a partner with Russia in the construction of "Mistral" is called the St. Petersburg Severnaya Verf. It is controlled by United Industrial Corporation (OPK), controlled by Tuvan senator Sergey Pugachev.

    The representative of the OPC refrained from comment. However, according to a source close to the management of the defense industry, such plans the corporation really is, now, their discussion is at a preliminary stage. Knows about such plans and defense industry source in the Defense Ministry.

    Draft of the ship may require alteration, Kalika says: it is designed without taking into account the need to adapt to the cold waters, which is based the bulk of Russia's fleet, the French have no experience of designing such ships.

    "Mistral" displacement of more than 20 000 tonnes has great autonomy, it can be based 450 Marines. On his arms are up to 16 assault helicopters, landing craft, the ship can be used as a headquarters and a hospital.

    Price "Mistral" for the French fleet - over 300 million euros, says expert at the Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies, Konstantin Makiyenko. But, continues Makienko, the cost of such a ship during construction in Russia is likely to increase - will require an investment in the development of new production and who had no analogues in Russia and the Soviet Navy project. Thus, the construction of four ships in Russia in addition to one purchased in France can be up to 1.5 billion euros.

    This amount is likely to be many times higher than the annual cost of state defense order for the construction and maintenance of preparedness is really needed for Navy surface ships of Russia (they are not disclosed in the budget). Isolation of such a huge amount likely to have a devastating impact on their construction, ascertains Makienko. With the purchase of such a huge and expensive vehicle, as the "Mistral", which value is not obvious, and military-technical policy in Russia acquires the features of politics in India and other countries - importers of weapons, where many transactions are motivated by large commissions, expert suggests.

    Purchase "Mistral" seems questionable not only because it would deny funds for Russia's navy is much more needed projects, but also because for him at Russia's navy is no problems, said a naval expert Mikhail Barabanov. In western fleets task of such ships - overseas expeditionary operations, in which Russia does not need a flag to show her enough and the existing surface ships. Certainly the fleet unable to cope with the exploitation of such a large ship, which will be very costly, warns Reels: Navy can not properly repair Russia's largest ship - the aircraft carrier "Admiral Kuznetsov". If there is a need for political reasons to buy any weapons in France, then Russia could get there in such huge sums of money as it may require much more systems and technologies, primarily for the Air Force and Army, the expert said. In the end, even in its class "Mistral" is not the best example: he has a problem with seaworthiness, the ship lost its tender CPA Australia's Dutch-Spanish rival, concludes Barabanov.

    Права на данный материал принадлежат Ведомости.

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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  Russian Patriot on Sun Sep 13, 2009 7:27 pm

    Russia to call tender for foreign helicopter carrier

    RIA Novosti

    11/09/200917:20

    KALININGRAD, September 11 (RIA Novosti) - Russia plans to hold an international tender for the purchase of a helicopter carrier, involving France, Spain and the Netherlands, the country's Navy chief said on Friday.

    "I can confirm that negotiations are being held, but there is likely to be a tender," Adm. Vladimir Vysotsky said, adding that other countries could also be involved.

    He said there were no negotiations with the United States - "for understandable reasons," adding that the U.S. authorities were "highly sensitive" about the transfer of new technology, especially dual-purpose technology.

    The admiral stressed, however, that technology transfer was a key condition for buying a helicopter carrier abroad.

    He said the Russian Navy needed a new warship to enhance its combat effectiveness.

    "Take, for example, last August, Georgia. Everything that we did in the space of 26 hours at the time, this ship will do within 40 minutes," Vysotsky said.

    He said the new warship would require appropriate port infrastructure, which had yet to be built.

    The Navy chief also denied reports that Russia had plans to buy submarines in Germany.

    "There is no question of buying [German] submarines. Actually, the Germans do not make diesel-electric submarines," he said.

    However, he added that Russia might be interested in acquiring advanced submarine engine technology, but it was not necessarily German.


    http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/russia/2009/russia-090911-rianovosti02.htm

    but with Mistral purchase this does not make any sense

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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  Vladimir79 on Mon Sep 14, 2009 6:32 am

    Russian Patriot wrote:

    but with Mistral purchase this does not make any sense

    It must be part of the same deal opening up to competition. I want to see us buy an LHP that can function as both carrier and LPD. Juan Carlos with some deck mods would do nicely.

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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  Russian Patriot on Thu Sep 17, 2009 12:14 am

    Russia to decide on purchase of French warship by October
    RIA Novosti

    10:06 15/09/2009 MOSCOW, September 15 (RIA Novosti) - Technical discussions between Russia and France on buying a Mistral class amphibious assault ship should be completed soon, with a decision on the purchase to follow from Moscow, a source close to the negotiations said on Tuesday.

    "We are holding technical consultations, which are expected to be completed by the end of September. The results will be reported to Russia's military-industrial commission in order to determine the viability of the purchase," the source said.

    He added that a group of Russian naval officers had already inspected a Mistral class ship at a French naval base in Toulon.

    "The officers were shown the interior of the ship and provided with technical data," the official said.

    The source denied media reports that Russia was considering alternative purchases of the same type of warship from other countries, including the Netherlands and Spain.

    "These countries also build amphibious assault ships of a similar class, but we have not considered their offers so far," he said.

    A Mistral class ship is capable of transporting and deploying 16 helicopters, four landing barges, up to 70 vehicles including 13 main battle tanks, and 450 soldiers. The vessel is equipped with a 69-bed hospital and can be used as an amphibious command ship.

    The ship could cost between 300 and 400 million euros ($430-580 million).

    Gen. Nikolai Makarov, the chief of the Russian General Staff, said in August that Russia was negotiating the purchase of one ship at present, and later planning to acquire 3-4 ships of the same class to be jointly built in Russia.

    Some Russian military experts have questioned the purchase both from the financial and military standpoint.


    http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/russia/2009/russia-090915-rianovosti01.htm

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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  Jelena on Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:41 am

    Russian Patriot wrote:

    The Navy chief also denied reports that Russia had plans to buy submarines in Germany.

    "There is no question of buying [German] submarines. Actually, the Germans do not make diesel-electric submarines," he said.


    1. Germans do make those submarines!
    2. I still don't understand why Russia needs to buy Mistral class ship and rely on HATO technology, while cutting 200 billion of rubles in 2009 on "research and development"? To me there is no logic in that... dunno

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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  Vladimir79 on Thu Sep 17, 2009 8:48 am

    Jelena wrote:

    2. I still don't understand why Russia needs to buy Mistral class ship and rely on HATO technology, while cutting 200 billion of rubles in 2009 on "research and development"? To me there is no logic in that... dunno

    Cheaper to buy French ToT than develop technologies from near scratch. Why reinvent the wheel when someone will give you the tools to make it? Developing an LPD of this class would cost billions USD. We can get it at a fraction of that price and use the machines and technology to develop our own carriers. Don't forget that all our carrier construction facilities were located in Crimea so we have nothing today.

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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  Jelena on Thu Sep 17, 2009 4:08 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    Jelena wrote:

    2. I still don't understand why Russia needs to buy Mistral class ship and rely on HATO technology, while cutting 200 billion of rubles in 2009 on "research and development"? To me there is no logic in that... dunno

    Cheaper to buy French ToT than develop technologies from near scratch. Why reinvent the wheel when someone will give you the tools to make it? Developing an LPD of this class would cost billions USD. We can get it at a fraction of that price and use the machines and technology to develop our own carriers. Don't forget that all our carrier construction facilities were located in Crimea so we have nothing today.

    I understand that part but still believe that it's not a solution. Maybe on a short run it's more economical (although it's going to cost much more then 300-400 mill.)but on the long run it doesn't pay.
    You said that there is no appropriate combat support for that kind of ship so they need to think about it! Also, Russia will wait for that ship at least 3+ years so it's not an instant solution.Where they're going to repair such a ship?At the end it will cost a billions!Is that ship so much needed?
    What worries me most is that they cut the budget on research and development!That "department" should have more money and not to be limited with budget all the time!You don't want your capital to be used to boost economy of someone else country but your own.

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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  Vladimir79 on Thu Sep 24, 2009 5:29 am

    Jelena wrote:

    I understand that part but still believe that it's not a solution. Maybe on a short run it's more economical (although it's going to cost much more then 300-400 mill.)but on the long run it doesn't pay.
    You said that there is no appropriate combat support for that kind of ship so they need to think about it! Also, Russia will wait for that ship at least 3+ years so it's not an instant solution.Where they're going to repair such a ship?At the end it will cost a billions!Is that ship so much needed?
    What worries me most is that they cut the budget on research and development!That "department" should have more money and not to be limited with budget all the time!You don't want your capital to be used to boost economy of someone else country but your own.

    I think building a major naval power has always been a waste of money, especially carriers. MoD doesn't see it that way and they want new carriers in the next ten years. Getting the French to build us docks will cut down development and procurement delays by three times. Our navy is so corrupt they cannot be trusted to do it themselves or it would never get done. It would just be throwing money down the toilet if we did it ourselves. Hopefully Medvedev's anti-corruption policies will be successful, but it will take years to decades for us to be as efficient in large ship building as the French without their help. Sevmash is just a total failure of a company and turning to France only proves it.

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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  Vladimir79 on Fri Oct 02, 2009 8:18 am

    Seemingly only a few months ago, only a hypothetical possibility of making use of Russia's foreign-built ships the Navy can now be considered real, not very distant prospect. From recent very unambiguous statements of the first of Russia's military establishment, particularly the Chief of General Staff and Chief of arms, it is clear that Russia is negotiating the acquisition of overseas amphibious assault ship, Helicopter. The most likely candidate for the replenishment of Russia's navy ship class is French Mistral.


    In society, and many experts on the recent decisions of the Ministry of Defense procurement of foreign models of weapons and equipment have caused confusion and some discouragement. Like, still alive, the once all-powerful military industrial complex is no longer able to provide its own army. But the situation should not be dramatized. Modern military technology is so complex that even the most developed countries are not always able to single-handedly provide all the needs of its armed forces.

    Meanwhile, a direct order to produce samples of weapons abroad, or purchase in the same licenses for their manufacture by domestic companies occurred in the pre-revolutionary era and the USSR as in the prewar and the postwar years. Legendary revolver Nagan, "gun" Maxim ", the cruiser" Varangian ", the most massive pre-war Soviet tanks of the family of BT and T-26 trainer aircraft L-39 - all of these samples weapons or manufactured abroad, or are an extension of the licensed designs. If a more detailed appeal to the naval theme, it is worth noting that in the late 30-ies of the USSR in Italy ordered the construction of destroyer leader Tashkent. After the war, the shipyards of Poland and Germany for the Soviet Navy large series built landing and small antisubmarine ships.

    The reasons for the purchase of foreign weapons in most cases the same: domestic designers were unable to quickly create a compliant military and suitable for mass production samples.

    In other words, the mere acquisition of samples of weapons and equipment for the Armed Forces should not be regarded as something shameful and unacceptable. In modern conditions it is rather a normal process. If the ship of this class, as the French Mistral, really needed by our Navy, the attempt to build its own forces would almost certainly result in another long-term construction.

    Several reasons. First, there is no corresponding project, which would require some time. There is, of course, never realized in the Soviet time the project 11780 "Nevsky" PCB, developed as the national equivalent of U.S. amphibious assault ship class "Tarawa". However, according to experts, today it is already outdated and implement it in some form should be refreshed only as a last resort. Secondly, given the fact that updating the general-purpose maritime forces us while still financed on a residual basis, and modernization of the maritime component of the SNF, encountered a number of known problems, the construction of Russia's Helicopter will be carried out at least five years and, consequently, the lead ship Navy will not until the end of the next decade. In such a situation is really better to order the construction of the lead ship abroad with a condition subsequent license production of several similar Helicopter in Russian shipyards. In that case, the fleet will receive the first amphibious assault ship in 2-3 years. Another thing is that the very situation that has arisen around the potential purchase of these vessels, causing some serious issues.

    The most important - on which procedure is going to Russia to buy foreign ships. Originally from the statements of representatives of the military authorities gave the impression that it was a straight purchase. However, in early September, the Navy Commander Vladimir Vysotsky said that the acquisition of Helicopter landing ship-dock (DVKD) will be on a competitive basis. From the words of Admiral Vladimir Vysotsky, apart from French companies DCN and ALSTOM, which carry out the construction of ships like Mistral, the competition will be attended by the Netherlands shipyard Damen Schelde and the Spanish Navantia. The latter two involved the construction of similar DVKD developed by the Dutch and Spanish engineers together. This class of ship Rotterdam (The Netherlands, built two units) and Galicia (Spain, also built two ships). Compared with DVKD Mistral Dutch-Spanish project has a smaller size (total displacement of about 12 500 tonnes against 21 300 tonnes from Mistral) and hence cheaper, but the functionality it below.

    On the flight deck of the Dutch and Spanish ships can simultaneously operate only two helicopters, while on the flight deck DVKD class Mistral placed six rotary-wing aircraft. Moreover, in the finalization of the French project - equipping the flight deck springboard - the ship turns into a light carrier. And yet, despite all the benefits that promise to ship the purchase of foreign Project and the subsequent construction of its sistershipov in Russia with the development of advanced European technology, the competition for DVKD for the Navy of Russia should be involved and domestic shipbuilders, especially Nevskoye PKB.

    In any case, the situation with the purchase of foreign ships for Russia's Navy must be transparent and comprehensible to the interested part of society and the expert community. Apparently, its position on the purchase of a foreign ship, given its unprecedented nature in the modern history of Russia, should make the head of the USC Vladimir Pakhomov, deputy prime minister Igor Sechin, who is chairman of the board of USC, his colleague in the government, Sergei Ivanov, the chairman of the Government, Vladimir Putin and President Dmitry Medvedev. It would make sense to devote the discussion of such a contract is one of the next meetings of the Security Council.

    Regarding the conditions of the contract for the purchase of foreign DVKD, then with Russia by mandatory paragraph should specify the amount of technology transfer and the establishment of licensed production of a series of similar vessels in Russia. Fundamentally nothing new and the impossible in such a requirement is not: it is for this scheme is the selection of foreign partners to implement the program of short-medium range airliners new generation of MS-21.

    What Western technology interest of Russia in the case of construction license DVKD? First of all modern western standards of naval systems, electronic control of the ship and its aggregates. One of the challenges that will confront DVKD in Russia's Navy - the headquarters ship. In this context, for Russia it would be important to obtain Western technology control land, sea and air forces, "electronic battlefield". Perhaps it all. Equip DVKD artillery and antiaircraft weapons in the state of Russia itself. Helicopters for DVKD also, of course, must be the national development. The most likely candidates for the deck look DVKD transport-combat Ka-29 attack and Mi-28N. During the air show MAKS-2009 "Air Force Commander Alexander Zelin mention that the" Night Hunter "will be interesting not only military, but Navy. Apparently, the possibility of basing the helicopter at DVKD had in mind.

    Another important aspect of a possible contract for the purchase and license production of foreign DVKD. Given the realities of Russia, yes, indeed, global practice, too, should be eliminated or at least minimize corruption component of the potential transaction. People who lobby the interests of foreign shipbuilders should be taken in the operational development of the FSB. It would be monitored over the next 5-7 years, their financial status, and income of close relatives.

    We also note that without waiting for completion of the acquisition DVKD, now must begin to explore the question of basing of ships of this type - that is, if Russia gets naval ship class Mistral, he will be the third in size after TAKR "Admiral Kuznetsov" and heavy atomic cruisers Project 1144. Need to develop tactics of DVKD, pick candidates for the naval group, within which will act Helicopter. In other words, until the issues associated with the new ship, more than answers to them. But in any case, the acquisition of a ship of this class will be a huge leap forward for Russia's navy.



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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  Russian Patriot on Sun Oct 04, 2009 12:54 am

    France Considers Selling Warship to Russia

    By Peter Fedynsky
    Moscow
    01 October 2009

    France is considering the sale of a helicopter carrier ship to Russia that could provide Moscow with added offensive capabilities at sea.

    Speaking in Moscow, French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner and Defense Minister Herve Morin confirmed speculation that France is considering the sale of a helicopter carrier to Russia. Both sides, however, noted no deal has been signed. Kouchner said there are a number of French administrative and political principles governing arms sales, particularly a ship as expensive as a helicopter carrier.

    Russian Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov indicated the two countries are now just consulting about the matter.

    The defense chief says Russia has a whole set of questions it has put to the French, and is waiting for answers before it makes specific decisions. Serdyukov adds that Russia is not interested in one ship, but several.

    The carrier under consideration belongs to the so-called Mistral Class of amphibious assault, command and projection ships. The 199-meter vessel can carry 16 helicopters and 450 troops for up to six months or about 700 for shorter periods.

    Russian news media recently quoted naval commander Vladimir Vysotsky as saying the French warship would greatly increase the speed of Russian operations. He said a Mistral Class carrier would have accomplished certain tasks in 40 minutes that took Russia's Black Sea Fleet 26 hours during last year's conflict with Georgia.

    Independent Russian military analyst Pavel Felgenhauer told VOA that France will likely need to consult with allies to go ahead with the sale.

    Felgenhauer says that almost every country that produces modern weapons uses some patents or know-how from the United States. He says France will, therefore, consult with NATO and above all with Washington whether to sell or not to Russia and to what extent.

    Moscow has indicated it may purchase one helicopter carrier and acquire licenses to build several more in Russian shipyards. Each ship costs an estimated $1 billion.

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2009/10/mil-091001-voa07.htm

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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  Russian Patriot on Sun Oct 04, 2009 12:56 am

    Russia's purchase of French warship requires 'political decision'

    RIA Novosti

    11:02 01/10/2009 MOSCOW, October 1 (RIA Novosti) - France will sell Russia a warship it wants to buy if the two countries reach a political agreement, the French foreign minister said on Thursday.

    Russia confirmed in mid-September that it was in talks with France to buy a Mistral-class helicopter carrier.

    "Negotiations on the purchase of the Mistral carrier are going on between our countries. It is a great ship. However, there is political procedure that needs to be followed. If a political accord is reached, I believe you will be able to buy this ship," Bernard Kouchner said in an interview with Ekho Moskvy radio.

    He did not elaborate on what kind of political accord or agreement was involved.

    Russian Deputy Defense Minister Vladimir Popovkin said on September 19 that in buying the ship Russia was seeking technology to boost its shipbuilding industry.

    He added that Russian shipbuilders strongly oppose the deal and that the government had yet to make a decision on whether Russia needs to build costly aircraft carriers.

    A Mistral-class ship is capable of transporting and deploying 16 helicopters, four landing barges, up to 70 vehicles including 13 battle tanks, and 450 soldiers. The vessel is equipped with a 69-bed hospital and can be used as an amphibious command ship.

    The ship could cost between 300 and 400 million euros ($430-580 million).

    Gen. Nikolai Makarov, the chief of the Russian General Staff, said in August that Russia had plans to buy three or four ships of the same class to be jointly built in Russia.


    http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/russia/2009/russia-091001-rianovosti01.htm

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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sun Oct 04, 2009 11:56 am

    So does it cost $1 billion or $580 million, that makes a big difference to me.

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