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    Russia's enemy countries

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    Ice Man
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    Re: Russia's enemy countries

    Post  Ice Man on Tue Jan 28, 2014 7:22 pm

    That is pretty simple; Sweden trust everybody else, but not Russia. It is the perception of Russia as the old enemy. I agree with the fear, mistrust, or whatever term we want to use is much older. Especially after Sweden lost Finland to Russia. The gas line now through the Baltic Sea is viewed as a threat, especially toward Gotland (the Swedish island in the Baltic Sea) It is not easy to change the perception and attitude, most of the time, it is a sign of poor knowledge and the majority of the Swedes won't listen to the rationality or rather the lack of rationality in their perception of Russia

    Historically, Sweden has been fighting much more with Denmark than Russia, but we don't view them as an enemy any longer. The Danes are weird, but not an enemy (there is a friendly banter between the Scandinavian countries)

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    Re: Russia's enemy countries

    Post  Hannibal Barca on Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:00 pm

    Let me rephrase. I do understand why you afraid Russia. You are indeed traditional enemies after all.
    I can't get why you are so convenient in sucking Germany's or England's or USA's d@@@ ? That's the big question.
    That's what I try to figure out for my country Greece as well.

    There are more notable examples yet, for an academician like you, why Germany and France are brothers in arms under the puppet-ship to the US.
    Why Japan leak their rapists USers. Why Turkey and Greece submit to the same alliance to service their master US.
    This is the true questions for a  political scientist who want to contribute something.
    Understanding this mechanisms that bridged differences when Russians where so incompetent that they even fought a war against China for f@@ing sake!

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    Re: Russia's enemy countries

    Post  Ice Man on Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:35 pm

    Hannibal Barca wrote:Let me rephrase. I do understand why you afraid Russia. You are indeed traditional enemies after all.
    I can't get why you are so convenient in sucking Germany's or England's or USA's d@@@ ? That's the big question.
    That's what I try to figure out for my country Greece as well.

    There are more notable examples yet, for an academician like you, why Germany and France are brothers in arms under the puppet-ship to the US.
    Why Japan leak their rapists USers. Why Turkey and Greece submit to the same alliance to service their master US.
    This is the true questions for a  political scientist who want to contribute something.
    Understanding this mechanisms that bridged differences when Russians where so incompetent that they even fought a war against China for f@@ing sake!

    First of all; all alliances are not based on friendship. All alliances are based on sharing interests. National states don't have friends, they share interests, most of the time economic interests, however, not always. For Sweden; the relations with Germany, the US, and GB are of an economic nature. When the national state has security issues with its neighbors it will most likely seeking protection from a stronger state. For Greece and Turkey, they shared the interest with the security, do they like each other? Not so much, but they shared the defense and foreign interest, hence the alliance. The same thing for Germany and France, they have economic ties to each other and they share interests. That doesn't mean they like each other

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    Re: Russia's enemy countries

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 28, 2014 9:49 pm


    First of all; all alliances are not based on friendship. All alliances are based on sharing interests. National states don't have friends, they share interests, most of the time economic interests, however, not always.

    That is the way the US puts it, but it is not strictly true.
    It is much easier to have friendly relations with a country with similar religion and similar culture and same language and many shared values.

    Also often interests are not so clear and obvious but still influence decisions.

    For instance if self interest was all that was considered then Russia would be offering PAK FA-K to the Chinese rather than an export Su-35.

    Obviously a long history of hostility makes things hard so Sweden and Russia might not be best buddies, but Russia has a good relationship with Germany and considering their fairly recent history that suggests any two countries can eventually become friendly in terms of economic trade.


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    Re: Russia's enemy countries

    Post  Ice Man on Tue Jan 28, 2014 10:08 pm

    GarryB wrote:

    First of all; all alliances are not based on friendship. All alliances are based on sharing interests. National states don't have friends, they share interests, most of the time economic interests, however, not always.

    That is the way the US puts it, but it is not strictly true.
    It is much easier to have friendly relations with a country with similar religion and similar culture and same language and many shared values.

    Also often interests are not so clear and obvious but still influence decisions.

    For instance if self interest was all that was considered then Russia would be offering PAK FA-K to the Chinese rather than an export Su-35.

    Obviously a long history of hostility makes things hard so Sweden and Russia might not be best buddies, but Russia has a good relationship with Germany and considering their fairly recent history that suggests any two countries can eventually become friendly in terms of economic trade.

    I disagree with that, it is the foundation of EU, the member states hadn't been there if they couldn't gain anything from it. When the alliance is obsolete, it disappear. If Germany can gain more from having better economic ties with France, they would sell Russia out tomorrow. International Relations are dirty and harsh, it is a harsh world and all states are playing the game of getting what they want. The water conflict between the US and Canada can explode at any time, especially when the climate change hits big time and we will see how "friendly" Canada and US are, even if they share a lot culturally.

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    Re: Russia's enemy countries

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 28, 2014 11:22 pm

    International Relations are dirty and harsh, it is a harsh world and all states are playing the game of getting what they want.

    Very true, but few countries see things in black and white like some countries like to.

    There is no reason why Germany can't have good ties with France AND Russia.

    There is no reason why Russia can't sell transport helicopters to Pakistan or trade in other ways without hurting relations with India.

    The US would portray Russian military sales to China and India as Russia playing both countries against each other, but really it is just business. There is no intent to create hostility between two of its best customers.


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    Re: Russia's enemy countries

    Post  Ice Man on Tue Jan 28, 2014 11:53 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    International Relations are dirty and harsh, it is a harsh world and all states are playing the game of getting what they want.

    Very true, but few countries see things in black and white like some countries like to.

    There is no reason why Germany can't have good ties with France AND Russia.

    There is no reason why Russia can't sell transport helicopters to Pakistan or trade in other ways without hurting relations with India.

    The US would portray Russian military sales to China and India as Russia playing both countries against each other, but really it is just business. There is no intent to create hostility between two of its best customers.

    True, but if it benefits Russia or Germany they will not stay with the agreement, it is naive to think they would. With the sell of hardware to Pakistan is only a part of the same old game going on. What the US really wants is to get the benefits from a deal and not letting Russia getting it. During the Cold War it was politically, today it is economically. Israel is somewhat different for the US, a pain in the axx, I would call it, I think we are going off topic now

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    Re: Russia's enemy countries

    Post  Indian Flanker on Tue Mar 11, 2014 5:42 pm

    Apparently the list of Russia's enemy nations is much longer than their friend list.

    Why the world(the majority of it) is against Russia, I completely fail to understand?


    PS: CIA was behind USSR's demise as much as anything, and now they are looking to circle Russia from all sides. Finalnd, Georgia, now Ukraine, Pakistan, and even Japan(they have airbases where US has deployed F-22 raptor), none of them are friendly towards Russia at the moment. The situation looks quite serious, if you are a Russian citizen, or a fan/friend of Russia.

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    Re: Russia's enemy countries

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Tue Mar 11, 2014 6:13 pm

    Indian Flanker wrote:Apparently the list of Russia's enemy nations is much longer than their friend list.

    Why the world(the majority of it) is against Russia, I completely fail to understand?


    PS: CIA was behind USSR's demise as much as anything, and now they are looking to circle Russia from all sides. Finalnd, Georgia, now Ukraine, Pakistan, and even Japan(they have airbases where US has deployed F-22 raptor), none of them are friendly towards Russia at the moment. The situation looks quite serious, if you are a Russian citizen, or a fan/friend  of Russia.

    Actually in the case of Finland, they've been playing the middle of the road, as far as Pakistan relations with Russia are steadily improving but because they like getting a petty extra billion a year to bomb their citizens (which proves how corrupt Pakistani leadership is) they'll willingly become lapdogs for the Pentagon.

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    Re: Russia's enemy countries

    Post  GarryB on Wed Mar 12, 2014 12:19 am

    The most amusing thing is that if you read the western propaganda machine and its description of Russia and its leader and its military and you will get a very good description of NATO and the US.

    The thing about a list of Russias enemies and friends is that it is largely bollocks.

    On paper New Zealand is a US/UK/West aligned country and also on paper is an enemy of Russia.

    Of course New Zealand wants a free trade agreement with Russia.

    The real problem is stereotypes... there are simply no enough good stereotypes of Russia in the west... Perhaps Russia should invest in some subtle pro Russian english language movies and TV programs or computer games and just distribute them widely...

    On another thread an English reporter publishing an article about the current situation in the Crimea is talking about how the EU and the west is rather more bound economically to Russia than the west is, or than the western public seems to realise... perhaps there are two obvious solutions... one is the most fun... Putin should start acting like the US... this would be expensive and dangerous because it would involve bombing and cruise missile attacks and invasions.... but also sanctions for Kosovo and Libya and Syria etc etc. The other option is for Putin to step down and let the second most powerful party in Russia take power for a term... the communists.

    Of course the west would love that... they hate Putin because he is smart and is doing lots of good things for Russia. If the commies take over and start breaking everything the west will be overjoyed and try to move in and grab everything they can grab at reduced prices... or for free.

    Of course Putin could also take a tape recorder to interviews and replay the stupid things the west said to justify their illegal actions... the Crimea probably does have weapons of mass destruction so Russia is only going in to secure them...


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    Re: Russia's enemy countries

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed Mar 12, 2014 3:01 am

    GarryB wrote:The most amusing thing is that if you read the western propaganda machine and its description of Russia and its leader and its military and you will get a very good description of NATO and the US.

    The thing about a list of Russias enemies and friends is that it is largely bollocks.

    On paper New Zealand is a US/UK/West aligned country and also on paper is an enemy of Russia.

    Of course New Zealand wants a free trade agreement with Russia.

    The real problem is stereotypes... there are simply no enough good stereotypes of Russia in the west... Perhaps Russia should invest in some subtle pro Russian english language movies and TV programs or computer games and just distribute them widely...

    On another thread an English reporter publishing an article about the current situation in the Crimea is talking about how the EU and the west is rather more bound economically to Russia than the west is, or than the western public seems to realise... perhaps there are two obvious solutions... one is the most fun... Putin should start acting like the US... this would be expensive and dangerous because it would involve bombing and cruise missile attacks and invasions.... but also sanctions for Kosovo and Libya and Syria etc etc. The other option is for Putin to step down and let the second most powerful party in Russia take power for a term... the communists.

    Of course the west would love that... they hate Putin because he is smart and is doing lots of good things for Russia. If the commies take over and start breaking everything the west will be overjoyed and try to move in and grab everything they can grab at reduced prices... or for free.

    Of course Putin could also take a tape recorder to interviews and replay the stupid things the west said to justify their illegal actions... the Crimea probably does have weapons of mass destruction so Russia is only going in to secure them...

    Putin still has a few trump cards, one being the Chinese card essentially making Russia impossible to economically isolate, and the other is the Cuban and Algerian Card, Ukraine joining NATO means Mobile ICBM's deployed within a 1-2 weeks timespan to Cuba and Algeria arguably the two most strategically important countries in the world for the purpose of nuclear deterrence against NATO.

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    Re: Russia's enemy countries

    Post  Regular on Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:07 am

    Isn't USA trying to isolate Russia from China as we speak? It's funny because USA still too slow to impose sanctions.

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    Re: Russia's enemy countries

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:56 pm

    Regular wrote:Isn't USA trying to isolate Russia from China as we speak? It's funny because USA still too slow to impose sanctions.

    How can they? Russia is too big of an economy and China and India refuse to support such sanctions, btw I forgot to mention that another trump card the Russians have is that if serious sanctions are deployed than Russia has no reason to abide by any international weapons convention, that means either concerning WMD's or not selling to other countries with sanctions on them. That means Russia can pull out of any Nuclear treaty, arm Iran to-the-teeth, hell even help other countries develop their WMD programs.

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    Re: Russia's enemy countries

    Post  GarryB on Wed Mar 12, 2014 11:56 pm

    Real sanctions are not going to happen... because of the obvious... the west has invested a lot of money into Russia and it hasn't done it for Russias benefit... they expect to get significant returns on those investments... if they impose sanctions they can kiss all their investments goodbye... they will hurt themselves more than they hurt Russia.


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Re: Russia's enemy countries

    Post  Viktor on Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:20 am

    Sanctions did nothing to break Iran for 35 years let alone Russia. Take a look what Russia did during the previous era of sanctions - great Soviet industralization  Very Happy 

    Because of it SU was able to repel German invasion and besides this sanction thing is all girly talk from the "west".

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    Re: Russia's enemy countries

    Post  GarryB on Thu Mar 13, 2014 1:19 am

    Sanctions haven't helped in Cuba or North Korea either...

    I was going to post this article in a Crimean thread but I think it is just as appropriate here because it really touches on the fact that Russia is begining to mature and is starting to take action the way the west takes action... clearly something the west was not prepared for... but will they get over it, and realise Russia has changed and it is up to them as to whether they either start respecting Russia more, or demonise her again... the results of the former could be real cooperation and a useful new potential partner where interests converge, or the latter where she can be their greatest enemy and rival...

    Does the West need a war against Russia?
    05.03.2014

    Does the West need a war against Russia?. 52315.jpeg

    There have been remarkable changes in the U.S. rhetoric against Russia in the last few days. They ranged from threats to isolate the Russian Federation politically and economically to the acknowledgement that Moscow has its own interests in the Crimea, and Washington is ready to help Russia in "taming the hooligans."

    The change occurred after a telephone conversation between Vladimir Putin and Barack Obama.

    On Sunday, immediately after the Council of the Federation gave Putin permission to conduct military operations on the territory of Ukraine in the event of extraordinary situations, U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry said that the U.S. and the West were "prepared to put sanctions in place, ... prepared to isolate Russia economically."

    "There are visa bans, asset freezes, isolation with respect to trade, investment," Kerry said on CBS's "Face The Nation." "American businesses may well want to start thinking twice about whether they want to do business with a country that behaves like this. These are serious implications." President Barack Obama mentioned that "there will be costs" if the troops are entered.
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    However, a day later the American rhetoric has changed dramatically. Kerry said that President Obama and his entire administration preferred to peacefully settle the conflict with Russia over Ukraine. "We're not trying to make this a battle between East and West; we're not trying to make this a Cold War," Kerry said on CBS's "Face the Nation." He said that "President Obama made it clear that we are prepared to work with Russia."

    "We are prepared to stand up against any hooligans, any thuggery, any individual efforts with Russians in order to create stability in Ukraine and allow the people of Ukraine to make their choices for the future."


    Why is this sudden turn? Likely, Vladimir Putin explained Obama that Moscow is acting strictly in the constitutional field, unlike the new Kiev authorities. There are also significant legal claims to the European allies.

    Where are they are now, the guarantors of the agreement (the document signed on February 21 between the legitimate President Yanukovych and the opposition) represented by the Ministers of Foreign Affairs of Poland, Germany and France? They were obliged to ensure its full execution, in particular with regard to the provisions on the disarmament of illegal armed groups. However, Bandera Maidan is ready to stand until the presidential elections in May, and perhaps longer, and no one asked them to leave.

    Can we expect sober decisions from the "hooligans" under these circumstances? Of course not, which is why the Russian leader has stressed that in the event of a further escalation of violence in the eastern regions of Ukraine and Crimea, Russia reserves the right to protect its interests and the Russian-speaking population residing there.

    The U.S. administration is again clearly caught off guard by Putin. Andrew C. Kuchins, a senior fellow and director of the CSIS Russia and Eurasia Program, responded to this development in a CNN article: "Yes, Crimea may already be gone. But we have to make absolutely clear - and in the most credible way possible - that Russian military intervention in other regions of Ukraine is a red line that will mean war with Ukrainian and NATO military forces if it is crossed. U.S. and NATO naval forces need to be deployed to the Black Sea in close proximity to the Ukrainian Coast. Military forces of neighboring NATO member countries, meanwhile, should be deployed closer to the Ukrainian border."

    Fiona Hill, a Brookings Institution scholar, told The Guardian: "We'll talk about sanctions. We'll talk about red lines. We'll basically drive ourselves into a frenzy. And he'll stand back and just watch it. He just knows that none of the rest of us want a war."

    The U.S. Sixth Fleet headquartered in Naples may enter the Black Sea, but it has to pass through the Dardanelles and the Bosphorus, a move that Turkey that must authorize the passage of warships considers highly undesirable. Any decision on the land deployment of the U.S. forces or NATO near the borders of Ukraine is also hard to imagine. The West simply has neither resources nor desire to do this. All latest NATO's military operations were air bombings.

    Risky ground operations are out of the question, as the U.S. will not be able to explain them to the American voters who are already exhausted by 12 -years of war in Iraq and Afghanistan. In Europe, Germany is generally averse to military actions, and is reluctant about getting involved even in peacekeeping operations. Paris is involved in Africa, and Francois Hollande has the lowest approval rating in the history of France - 18 percent. Great Britain will not get involved either. This means that there will be no direct military confrontation between the West and Russia over Ukraine. Diplomatic and political measures could be employed, with an escalation to the Cold War. The West could kick Russia out from the "G 8," condemn its actions in the UN Security Council without the adoption of a resolution, ban visas, but for Russia these are not real sanctions.

    Russia may well look to the allies within BRICS, Turkey, and Iran. "The format of the G8 is actually the only one in which we in the West can speak directly with Russia," German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier told the public broadcaster ARD. "Should we really give up this unique format?" This is a very wise thought. As for the economic and financial leverage, they may have a negative impact on Russia only if Europe is involved, but for the latter Russia is a reliable trading partner, especially for Germany.

    "I would not jump to conclusions regarding the future of the relations with the West. One thing is clear though, the West will not choose the Cold War or a sharp deterioration of the relations with Russia," told Pravda.Ru Pavel Podlesnyy, head of the Russian-US Relations at the Institute of USA and Canada, head of the Institute of European processes. "None of the NATO countries will launch a war with Russia. This is completely ruled out. Now the West is considering possible sanctions against Russia. It is very important that at the Security Council meeting held recently it was clear that so far the West has not proposed any serious resolutions. The UK or Canada might introduce lists similar to the Magnitsky list, for example. I do not think that France or Germany would do it. Incidentally, Italy remains silent."

    "The Crimean crisis is a good reason not to start the Cold War. It is tempting for the West to declare Russia a fiend, to cancel visas, to create blacklists, to deny investment. But we understand that in today's world this is a game of destructing each other. We have serious economic ties with Europe, and who needs to ruin them?" said Konstantin Simonov, Head of the Department of Applied Politics at the Finance University under the Government of the Russian Federation. "I think the Crimean crisis is a reason to sit down and consider that the current formula of solving international conflicts is not working, the UN is not working.

    Russia, by and large, acted the same way the U.S. always acted in such situations. Another thing is that it was surprising for them. Apparently, they believe that they are entitled to do whatever they want, and we have to passively watch from the sidelines. The interests of our citizens were threatened, and we chose not to wait for the UN Security Council sanctions. We acted the same way the Americans have always acted. Russia has simply become a strong country and began to use the same tools the United States has been using. It was surprising to them, but this is the reality, and if we want to make the world safer, then let's sit down and think about the way it will look in the future."

    Lyuba Lulko

    http://english.pravda.ru/world/americas/05-03-2014/127023-west_russia_war-0/


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Re: Russia's enemy countries

    Post  Lombard on Mon Mar 24, 2014 12:12 am

    George1 wrote:Which countries u consider hostile towards Russia? (except USA)

    I say Poland, Turkey, Japan and Georgia

    I know it looksbad on us, I am from Poland. But what tou see on TV this is mainly our government.
    You see in poland most people on the internet and discussion foruns understand pres. Putin and most of us feel fed up with condoning what the us does vs russia's actions. However our current govt. After 98a has been very pro right wing, they hate anything to to do with the socialist era and watsaw pact so they do everything oposite as well as picking allies.

    Many of u liked our old warsaw pact allience, oh i would forget that katyn thing-the wwII era, when soviet soldiers killed whatever number of thousands of our officers, yeah they often talk about this.

    Other than that we know it was the past and we cannot judge sons for what their fathers did. Also we have been allies for many dekades in the past and it was not bad (unless from our side).

    So just wanted all you to know, its not the people of Poland who you see in the media talking against russia because most of the country doesn't agree with Tusk.
    Paka!



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    Re: Russia's enemy countries

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:12 am

    Lombard wrote:
    George1 wrote:Which countries u consider hostile towards Russia? (except USA)

    I say Poland, Turkey, Japan and Georgia

    I know it looksbad on us, I am from Poland. But what tou see on TV this is mainly our government.
    You see in poland most people on the internet and discussion foruns understand pres. Putin and most of us feel fed up with condoning what the us does vs russia's actions. However our current govt. After 98a has been very pro right wing, they hate anything to to do with the socialist era and watsaw pact so they do everything oposite as well as picking allies.

    Many of u liked our old warsaw pact allience,  oh i would forget that katyn thing-the wwII era, when soviet soldiers killed whatever number of thousands of our officers, yeah they often talk about this.

    Other than that we know it was the past and we cannot judge sons for what their fathers did. Also we have been allies for many dekades in the past and it was not bad (unless from our side).

    So just wanted all you to know, its not the people of Poland who you see in the media talking against russia because most of the country doesn't agree with Tusk.
    Paka!



    And the Germans killed even more Poles, and put them in concentration camps which makes you wonder why Polish leadership isn't more independent from Brussels, Germany, etc.

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    Re: Russia's enemy countries

    Post  GarryB on Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:34 am

    Many of u liked our old warsaw pact allience, oh i would forget that katyn thing-the wwII era, when soviet soldiers killed whatever number of thousands of our officers, yeah they often talk about this.

    I don't think even stalin supporters liked what he did with his NKVD in Katyn... not a good way to make friends...  Embarassed 

    So just wanted all you to know, its not the people of Poland who you see in the media talking against russia because most of the country doesn't agree with Tusk.

    Nice to have you here... it will be interesting to hear your view on things.. Smile

    BTW it is a forum rule that new members post an introduction in the rules and introductions section first to introduce themselves. You don't need to delete existing posts you have already made but please take the time to go to the intro and rules section and give the rules a quick read and post an introduction thread of your own.

    thanks in advance.



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    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Re: Russia's enemy countries

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:02 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Many of u liked our old warsaw pact allience, oh i would forget that katyn thing-the wwII era, when soviet soldiers killed whatever number of thousands of our officers, yeah they often talk about this.

    I don't think even stalin supporters liked what he did with his NKVD in Katyn... not a good way to make friends...   Embarassed 

    So just wanted all you to know, its not the people of Poland who you see in the media talking against russia because most of the country doesn't agree with Tusk.

    Nice to have you here... it will be interesting to hear your view on things.. Smile

    BTW it is a forum rule that new members post an introduction in the rules and introductions section first to introduce themselves. You don't need to delete existing posts you have already made but please take the time to go to the intro and rules section and give the rules a quick read and post an introduction thread of your own.

    thanks in advance.

    But katyn was done by the nazis, keep in mind it was only goebbels first that announced that katyn was done by the soviets and we all know the nazis werent very truthful fellows. What really happened was that the alleged polish POWs wre put into work camps by the soviets first by forcing them to build roads in the BSSR. Of course they weren't treated very humanely, but they weren't exterminated. During barbarossa however the soviets in their rapid retreat left the polish prisoners to be found by the germans and in turn to be put to hard labor but this time for their mudrer which happenened somewhere around late 1941/42. There were numerous accounts from local villagers who saw german trucks loading dead bodies coming from the katyn forest, they heard gunshots and one man testified that when the nazis announced what they had "found" at katyn they forced him by torture to report as a supposed witness of the made up soviet deed. But the antirussian polish generals(like Anders) of the exiled government in the UK cought on to that story. Actually during the antinazi trials after the end of WW2 the despicable act of the Katyn massacre was proclaimed to be done by the nazis, but the cold war started shortly after and the highly influential west clung up to the anti-soviet version, in this case the nazi one.

    It has been proven by the forensics expert Edouard Molokov that the supposed documents proving Katyn were faked by yeltsin's goons as a means of scoring points with anticommunist factions.

    Other evidences against the claim that evil commies did Katyn was the that the bullet hole in the heads of the bodies corresponed with 9mm cartridges not used by the NKVD at that time. The prisoners were shot with their boots on while during all soviet executions the convict is shot with his shoes off.

    Lets hope that in a less historically revisionist age without massive right wing reactionary political and media influence this cold war Nazi propaganda spawned ministry myth with wither away.

    TR1
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    Re: Russia's enemy countries

    Post  TR1 on Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:26 pm

    Oh come on, Katyn denial at this point?

    There are Soviet documents talking about the necessity to destroy the evidence that they did it.
    Yes they shot them. This is a regime that summarily executed hundreds of thousands of its own citizens from all strata of society. Was that Nazi propaganda too?
    Shooting several thousand Poles is nothing surprising.

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    Re: Russia's enemy countries

    Post  GarryB on Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:45 am

    The nazis were scum and did a lot of very bad things, but they shouldn't be blamed for things they actually didn't do.

    We know Stalin was ruthless in getting rid of political enemies or threats to his control and clearly at the time these officers were seen as threats.

    The facts were that when speaking to the Germans Stalin got an offer to join the Germans in taking Poland while getting agreement that Germany will not attack the Soviet Union.

    Given that offer Stalin contacted the British and the Polish to work out what they could offer... the Brits sent some idiot who basically said the Soviets need to work it out with the Poles and the Poles said they don't trust the Soviets and would rather trust the Germans.

    When the choice is sign a non aggression pact with Germany and keep the Germans a few extra hundred kms from Moscow or don't sign and have the German troops right on the Polish border it is pretty clear Stalin got the message from Poland that they are not allies and also from Germany that they are not allies... the Poles wouldn't sign any agreement and you don't need a non aggression agreement with an ally.


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    Re: Russia's enemy countries

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sat Mar 29, 2014 10:29 pm

    TR1 wrote:Oh come on, Katyn denial at this point?
    Where did I say that i deny the officers were killed?

    There are Soviet documents talking about the necessity to destroy the evidence that they did it.
    No it didn't order that. But does it matter? The 3 three "smoking gun" documents have already been proved forged.
    http://msuweb.montclair.edu/~furrg/pol/truthaboutkatyn.htmlHere are very detailed personal accounts and analysis on how katyn was covered up to put blame only on the soviets.
    Yes they shot them. This is a regime that summarily executed hundreds of thousands of its own citizens from all strata of society. Was that Nazi propaganda too?
    Shooting several thousand Poles is nothing surprising.
    You're putting red herring. So did all other superpowers of the time. In continuation of decades. It doesn't matter how "surprising" it is, what matters is the evidence. And it highly leans to the hypothesis that the nazis were responsible for the large part of the shootings. For example, 2 officers supposedly shot at in Katyn were found in a mass grave near Novograd Volynsky along with women and children, and the evidence overwhelmingly shows it was a nazi deed.
    http://www.greanvillepost.com/2013/12/02/history-revisited-the-official-version-of-the-katyn-massacre-disproven/

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    Re: Russia's enemy countries

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sat Mar 29, 2014 10:38 pm

    GarryB wrote:T

    We know Stalin was ruthless in getting rid of political enemies or threats to his control and clearly at the time these officers were seen as threats.

    They were POWs at that point doing hard labor heavily gaurded. They had zero political influence in the USSR's decisions nor were in the ability to raise dissent in the areas they were imprisoned. If stalin felt politically threatened he would've done it the usual way: prosecute a large portion of high ranking political and military members in the government: which he also didn't do at that time. He was hardly so stupid to think that executing some polish captives in the BSSR would've reinforced his popularity and loyalty in the party.

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    Re: Russia's enemy countries

    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 30, 2014 9:57 am

    He was hardly so stupid to think that executing some polish captives in the BSSR would've reinforced his popularity and loyalty in the party.

    When he approached the Polish and British neither was interested in an alliance with the Soviet Union. Poland was not an ally of the Soviets and at the time of the killing weren't likely to be friends now that the Soviets had "liberated" half of Poland from German rule.

    At the end of the day Poland was a non friendly country that Stalin took by force to keep the German troops further from Moscow.


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