OK, I hold my bum up for smacking too – I ran off topic; actually something I am very passionate about, and got carried away in reply. Kiwis have a very strong sense of social justice and a history of supporting the underdog; we tend to go out on a limb for mates and the down-trodden. I unfortunately [or fortunately, depending on your persuasion] follow that trend.

I read recently that the Russian task force is going to conduct exercises with the Israeli navy when they get to station??? Is this a case of keep your friends close but your enemies closer??

Two questions:

Can anyone confirm this?

If it is true, what do you think might be the motive behind it??

This voyage was planned over a year ago, and they probably thought a bit of anti terrorism training practise with the Israelis would be good PR and good training.

They also train with the USN very occasionally, so I don't think it is a sign that the Russian navy might shift from Tartus to Israel.

I have not read any mention of joint exercises with the Israeli Navy, but then I have not read a detailed list of their itinerary either... either the original one or the new likely revised one, though I seem to remember that originally they were going to visit several ports on the way and not actually get to Syria till February or later.

It should be mentioned that during the cold war the Soviets actually set up mobile independent bases that were simply moorings in international waters in the Med.

A couple of support ships would basically drop anchor in the middle of the med, and any ships that needed resupply could head there and pull up along side and take on water, or fuel, or food, or ammo or combinations of all the above while getting a tan.

I also vaguely remember at one time they had a mooring off Greece somewhere too.

If there is any sub with the taskforce, it isnt Nerpa, as she is in the far east, where she had the accident.
Also her quality is inferior as she leaked, having being built from cheap chinese steel.


The Ladny would have joined the fleet of spain now, and they should be through Gibraltar any day.
I seriously doubt they will be exercising with Israel right now, as the situation is hot.

I would expect them to visit Cyprus and Egypt, as the latter is free from influence of US.
Now lets see if Moskva is joining the fleet, or if she heads home, relived.
But the K is sure to remaine in eastern Med for some time.

Happy Xmas
Late news, what do you think of this??

■Sevmash won’t be repairing CV Admiral Kuznetsov in 2012. The shipyard is prepared to build a future carrier.

I would expect them to visit Cyprus and Egypt, as the latter is free from influence of US.

Did CNN tell you that?

As far as I can tell the military pretty much removed Mubarak and kept power themselves.

Seems to me that apart from Mubarak going little has actually changed and the people in power now in Egypt are largely the same people that were there before under Mubarak.

With the military in control the US will have its greatest influence... it is US aide that goes directly to the military to control Egypt all this time.

They talk about an Arab Spring, but it is far more likely that the NSA picked up a conversation by Mubarak where he may have said he was sick of being a US stooge and being nice to the Israelis while they build new settlements and cage the Palestinians like animals... or perhaps it was considering buying Russian planes like Migs and Flankers...

A simple combination of encouraging his opponents and getting the regime to "allow" an uprising they could take over and use to get rid of Mubarak would not be hard to engineer.

Good point about the Nerpa being in the wrong ocean, but regarding Sev, that was pretty predictible as the French had to pick which Russian yard does the Russian side of production for the 4 Mistrals (20% or so for the first two, and 80% or so for the second two) and Sev makes sense for the French to pick as they are the best equipped and will need the least money and time to get up to speed to do the job.

This is probably why they are talking about fairly superficial upgrades for the two Kirovs initially, but if they keep these ships they will remain in service beyond 2030, so in the 2020s they will likely put them through a more complete and thorough upgrade.

"The Russian aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov
reached the Mediterranean through the Straits of Gibraltar. Other Russian warships military exercises with Russian warships in international waters continues. According to reports in Russian media, helicopters and ships belonging to NATO warships constantly watching "

The last i heard is that they are now heading for Malta. And the Syrian situation is stable for the moment, but now Iran rattles. They have threaten to close the strait of Hormuz if EU sanctions Irans oil industry.
That will very certainly led to clashes with US and Nato ships in the area.
Then maybe US and Israel will take the oppertunity and bomb Irans nuclear facilities.

Whatever, Kuznetsovs stay in the Med will not be boring...

I hope both sides keep a cool head as Iran is certainly no threat to the world, but it is definitely a power in the region.

If it really hated the US as much as the US seems to hate it, it could easily have allowed sophisticated weapons like MANPADS and ATGMs move from Iranian factories across the border into Iraq and Afghanistan for use against US forces there. In the case of Afghanistan that would have been critical as they rely on helicopters for relatively safe transport that avoids the threat of IEDs. Take that away and they will be in a very difficult position...

In the past the Iranian Navy has been pretty ineffectual, but recent chinese anti ship missiles are rather more capable than the old Silkworm missiles many are based upon and offer a much more serious threat. A few Iranian roll on roll off ships laying mines again doesn't bare thinking about. Let alone ballistic or cruise missile attacks against US assets in the region.

I am pretty sure that a US attack on civilian nuclear facilities in Iran would lead to an end to the reset with Russia, and Russia will likely become much more cooperative with Iran in terms of supplying weapons.

Really don't think it is worth it for the US... but that has never stopped them in the past.

Meanwhile a few thousand Russian sailor enjoy working on their tans in the med.

Athens approved Russia’s request for aeronautical exercises within the Athens FIR. The demand for the exercises was asked because the Russian aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov and its escort ships approach Eastern Mediterranean. The exercise might take place on Tuesday 80-90 miles southwest of Pylos, in the Ionian Sea. Alternative dates are – under Russian request – the 5th and 6th of January.


The Russian naval force is expected anytime now to reach the area of the Athens FIR. The aircraft carrier entered some days ago the Mediterranean through Gibraltar and heads off Syria.

So, the task force is of Grecce, and probably of Syria in a matter of days.
Since the Russian intervention with weapon and politics, the situation has cooled, and hopefully a deal with the opposition can move the country closer to democracy and avoid further bloodshed.

GarryB wrote:I hope both sides keep a cool head as Iran is certainly no threat to the world, but it is definitely a power in the region.

I am pretty sure that a US attack on civilian nuclear facilities in Iran would lead to an end to the reset with Russia, and Russia will likely become much more cooperative with Iran in terms of supplying weapons.

Really don't think it is worth it for the US... but that has never stopped them in the past.

The other hotspot, Iran is getting hotter by the minute. Now 40% of the worlds oil is at stake, if Iran close the Hormuz strait. And oil is what US interests is all about, as it is power and money. Especially money, with many politicians striving to benefit themselves and friends, just as Bush and Dick did.

Now, wouldnt it be wiser to station the Kuznetsov in BSF?
Up in the cold north, nothing is happening.

Not that i like Iran much, i just dont see the justification to sanction Iran and then bomb it back to the stone age, when other countries were allowed to get nucs. Israel, India, Pakistan, North Korea. And Israel cannot be said to be a peaceloving country by any means.

I dont see the K moving to interfere with a US-Iran naval clash, but it cannot hurt to be nearby, observing and decoding target radars.

So, any bet the K is going through Suez in a few weeks?

Now, wouldnt it be wiser to station the Kuznetsov in BSF?
Up in the cold north, nothing is happening.

It is going into refit in 2013... next year, for a major overhaul and refit so there is no point in stationing it in the Black Sea.

Not that i like Iran much, i just dont see the justification to sanction Iran and then bomb it back to the stone age, when other countries were allowed to get nucs. Israel, India, Pakistan, North Korea. And Israel cannot be said to be a peaceloving country by any means.

Irans crime was that it nationalised its national resources... something Venezuela and Cuba did too. The very concept that the Iranian or Venezuelan people should benefit from the oil under the soil in their countries instead of some already rich western oil company is blasphemy to the US. In cuba it was sugar... cubans should just be happy to earn a few dollars a day on the sugar plantations or in the casinos or as waiters delivering drinks to fat foreigners sitting on beautiful cuban beaches.

The point is that by putting sanctions on Iran the US and EU are starving them of funds because the US and EU thinks they might be breaking the rules... how exactly can they prove they aren't?

The whole point of enriching their own fuel is so they can be self sufficient in nuclear energy and the west cannot withhold fuel as leverage to force them to do stuff.

These sanctions show the Iranians they are right to want to be independent of the outside world for their power, because they know the west does not want them to grow.

I dont see the K moving to interfere with a US-Iran naval clash, but it cannot hurt to be nearby, observing and decoding target radars.

So, any bet the K is going through Suez in a few weeks?

I think the K in the med near syria will have a good effect on the US and EU... they will think twice before meddling directly.

In the Persian Gulf however I don't think the K can do any good, and if Iran wants to close the straights I doubt the Russians want their ships there at all... who knows what might happen.

What if Iran starts mining the gulf and the K hits a mine?

The Russians have nothing to gain by getting in the way there, and would not be of much help to Iran... at the moment with western sanctions on Iran pretty much all of Irans crude oil exports stop, so Iran will be happy to fire on any naval traffic in the straight as they know it wont be theirs... and if they can't ship oil then why should anyone else...

GarryB wrote:

I would expect them to visit Cyprus and Egypt, as the latter is free from influence of US.

Did CNN tell you that?

As far as I can tell the military pretty much removed Mubarak and kept power themselves.

Seems to me that apart from Mubarak going little has actually changed and the people in power now in Egypt are largely the same people that were there before under Mubarak.

With the military in control the US will have its greatest influence... it is US aide that goes directly to the military to control Egypt all this time.

They talk about an Arab Spring, but it is far more likely that the NSA picked up a conversation by Mubarak where he may have said he was sick of being a US stooge and being nice to the Israelis while they build new settlements and cage the Palestinians like animals... or perhaps it was considering buying Russian planes like Migs and Flankers...

A simple combination of encouraging his opponents and getting the regime to "allow" an uprising they could take over and use to get rid of Mubarak would not be hard to engineer.

Good point about the Nerpa being in the wrong ocean, but regarding Sev, that was pretty predictible as the French had to pick which Russian yard does the Russian side of production for the 4 Mistrals (20% or so for the first two, and 80% or so for the second two) and Sev makes sense for the French to pick as they are the best equipped and will need the least money and time to get up to speed to do the job.

This is probably why they are talking about fairly superficial upgrades for the two Kirovs initially, but if they keep these ships they will remain in service beyond 2030, so in the 2020s they will likely put them through a more complete and thorough upgrade.

Garry , U.S didn't control Egyptian army, I explained that in the U.S drone thread .

ahmedfire wrote:Garry , U.S didn't control Egyptian army, I explained that in the U.S drone threat .

So, where does Egypt stand now, close to US-Israel or are you moving away from that?
Any chance of Kuznetsov visiting Egypt, as a sign of changing interests zone?

GarryB wrote:It is going into refit in 2013... next year, for a major overhaul and refit so there is no point in stationing it in the Black Sea.

Is it? I thought the overhaul wast postponed and had to be minor, as the verf will be busy with building the two Mistrals?

In the Persian Gulf however I don't think the K can do any good, and if Iran wants to close the straights I doubt the Russians want their ships there at all... who knows what might happen.
What if Iran starts mining the gulf and the K hits a mine?
The Russians have nothing to gain by getting in the way there.

Right, but they would want a spyship to monitor, or perhaps they can fly patrols over and whatch with Bears.
A modern naval clash would be very interesting to watch closey, and analyse radar and weapons signatures, as the last modern naval clash was Argentina- UK 1982.

runaway wrote:

ahmedfire wrote:Garry , U.S didn't control Egyptian army, I explained that in the U.S drone threat .

So, where does Egypt stand now, close to US-Israel or are you moving away from that?
Any chance of Kuznetsov visiting Egypt, as a sign of changing interests zone?

Having agood relations with someone doesn't mean you are aslave for him, after Soviet Union fall, We found only world one power , so you can deal smartly with her or go to hell ,

From decades ,Egypt has good relations with all countries depends on benefits , having good relations with U.S doesn't mean bad relations with russia ,, We have very very good relations with russia in all fields economy,military, and wait some months we will give russia ( not U.S )the nuclear contracts to establish many nuclear reactors in egypt,

But we have Sovereignty on our land, so we refuse to establish any foreign military bases in egypt ,

I don't see reasons that obstacle making anavy maneuvers with russia if she demand that !

Garry , U.S didn't control Egyptian army, I explained that in the U.S drone threat .

No, they clearly don't, but lets face it, if the US wanted Mubarak to stay in power they could have ensured that.

I am pretty sure the successful uprisings were only successful because either the US supported them or didn't care.

Note the uprisings in Bharain where Saudi Arabia sent troops to help the government and crush the people didn't get a whisper in the western media because Bharain does as it is told so there is "no need for regime change there".

Mubarak clearly didn't behave so the CIA supported the coup in Egypt.

Is it? I thought the overhaul wast postponed and had to be minor, as the verf will be busy with building the two Mistrals?

AFAIK the two being made in Russia will not start till 2014-5 and will end up in the Northern Fleet.
The overhaul of the Kirovs was going to be minor, the Kuz is going to get its Granits removed to expand the hangar deck, and is likely to get a fairly extensive electronics and radar upgrade and nuclear propulsion, with EM cats most likely.

Right, but they would want a spyship to monitor, or perhaps they can fly patrols over and whatch with Bears.
A modern naval clash would be very interesting to watch closey, and analyse radar and weapons signatures, as the last modern naval clash was Argentina- UK 1982.

Considering the location of the Persian Gulf I rather suspect they will do what they did for the Falklands war and send up a satellite to monitor what was happening.

With the Persian Gulf so close to the equator however that means geostationary orbit satellites with continuous coverage.

Not really safe sending aircraft or surface vessels into potential war zones.

Well, so much for a "visite to syria is not planned". Also the submarine theory is proven right, i would guess a couple of Akulas 971.

Russian Navy's flotilla headed by aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov has already moored at Syrian port Tartus, report news agencies of Damascus. According to local media, the call of Russian carrier group is carried out in solidarity with Syria which is Moscow's close ally.

The 6-day visit of the Russian naval flotilla is called to strengthen stance of Syrian government which is currently under pressure of the Western and Arab countries as a result of sanguinary repression of protest actions.

"The port call is aimed at bringing the two countries closer together and strengthening their ties of friendship", reports SANA citing the Russian Navy's spokesman Vladimir A. Yakushev. According to the news agency, Russian warships will call at Tartus by rotation to demonstrate solidarity with Syrian people.

The governor of Tartus province, Atef al-Nadaf, paid tribute to the "honourable position adopted by Russia which has stood by the Syrian people". Private but para-governmental Syrian newspaper Al-Watan reported last week that aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov with an escort group including submarines was heading for Syria.

Now, how long will they stay in the Med, and where do they go from Tartus?