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    Indian Su-30MKI: News

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    higurashihougi

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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  higurashihougi on Sat Aug 08, 2015 9:56 am

    Austin wrote:Thank You , How about Rafale is it better off ? IAF is purchasing atleast few squadrons of it.

    No. Rafale is even inferior to Typhoon. At least Typhoon has electronically controlled air inlet, while Rafale uses ram inlet.

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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  Austin on Sat Aug 08, 2015 10:30 am

    What about sensor fusion on Su-30 , Typhoon claims to have sensor fusion

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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  Austin on Sat Aug 08, 2015 10:35 am

    Can any one possibly join BRF and debunk some myth on Su-30

    http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6842&sid=592e39695362750a177168820dc76776&start=840


    Check the thread the reporter who broke the new of 12-0 said he stood by his report

    http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6842&start=840#p1882923
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    jhelb

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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  jhelb on Sat Aug 08, 2015 11:08 am

    Austin wrote:Can any one possibly join BRF and debunk some myth on Su-30

    http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6842&sid=592e39695362750a177168820dc76776&start=840

    Jesus Christ, the link you gave basically reflects how these guys are trying to peddle their ignorance, nothing more, nothing less.

    It seems this forum needs an work email ID to join and I am unwilling to use mine for official reasons.


    Austin wrote:Check the thread the reporter who broke the new of 12-0 said he stood by his report

    http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6842&start=840#p1882923

    Who is the reporter ?  This guy says, assuming he is the reporter.

    " I accept that there are sensitivities and yes, I was able to access more on-the-record information than many in the UK or perhaps even in some quarters of the IAF would have liked - but the information stands."

    Ok, where is his " more on-the-record information" ?


    Austin wrote:What about sensor fusion on Su-30 , Typhoon claims to have sensor fusion

    Export model Su 30s do not have sensor fusion. Data from different sources like datalinks and sensors are presented separately without data fusion. Indian Su 30s uses Israeli datalinks.


    What comes with that price? Rouble value dropped, so overall costs dropped as well.

    So what? Exports are paid in either USD or Euros. Are you saying that if the price of an export model Su 30 was say $50 million 2 years ago, it suddenly fell to $40 million or $30 million this year just because the value of the Rouble fell?

    The price of raw materials that Russia has to import to design aircraft also went up because the value of the Rouble fell.

    Does that come with spares and training?

    It comes with some spares not training.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  GarryB on Sat Aug 08, 2015 11:43 am

    60 million including a 20 million overhaul... means they actually cost 40 million each... certainly not 10 times cheaper, but you would get rather more than three Flankers for each typhoon... is one typhoon better than three flankers?

    The Flanker has a future of getting 5th gen avionics from the FFGA programme... will the west spend as much on the Typhoon and share that for free with its customers?


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    jhelb

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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  jhelb on Sat Aug 08, 2015 11:51 am

    GarryB wrote:60 million including a 20 million overhaul... means they actually cost 40 million each...

    They are referring to new Su 30MKI that cost $ 60 million. It depends on configuration. Instead of a $20 million overhaul you can go for less. They do not give details about the new configuration that costs $20 million so we do not know the details.

    Point is the cost of a new Su 30MKI that is made in India will now cost them $60 million not $40 million.

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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  Austin on Mon Aug 10, 2015 11:37 am

    jhelb wrote:Export model Su 30s do not have sensor fusion. Data from different sources like datalinks and sensors are presented separately without data fusion. Indian Su 30s uses Israeli datalinks.

    Are you sure if Russian Su-30SM or 35 has Sensor Fusion

    http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7029&start=440#p1883761

    The powerful data fusion algorithms combine and compare the data gathered by all Rafale sensors, and accurately position and identify targets. It’s much more than simple correlation as it gives the pilot an accurate and unambiguous tactical picture. One of the key advantages of the system is its ability to identify and classified the type of target/threat, by using either the Spectra suite or the TV sensor of the FSO. When all tracks are positively identified, the system automatically creates a synthetic image with all enemy and friendly tracks shown in a clear and explicit way. Off-board sensor can also contribute data to the integrated tactical air picture, via the datalink. Wingmen or AEW aircraft can feed their data to the leader’s system, thus helping target-sorting and co-operation within the formation. Multichannel target acquisition/ tracking associated with smart sensor fusion key-enabler which will radically change the face of air warfare. This combination of multisensor technology and smart data fusion significantly increases mission success rates through enhanced crew awareness and improved aircraft survivability. With its multisensor technology, its advanced data fusion management system, and its remarkable Man-Machine Interface (MMI), the Rafale clearly stands in a category of its own and no other fighter in the world has such a wide array of systems at its disposal.


    IF you are aware either Su-30SM or Su-35 has any sensor fusion similar to Rafale ? Any literature in English about it
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    jhelb

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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  jhelb on Mon Aug 10, 2015 12:39 pm

    Austin wrote:Are you sure if Russian Su-30SM or 35 has Sensor Fusion

    Su 35 is getting the same MIRES system,AESA radar with side radars and new data-link that the PAK FA is getting.That's a very decent sensor fusion.

    One advantage that you guys in India have with your Su 30MKI is that it is a tandem seat aircraft. Ergo,the two pilots will be able to perform interleaved operations concurrently thereby reducing workload-related stress.

    Invest in some decent off-board radars like AWACS, JSTARS and ASTOR and the BVR advantage that aircraft like Eurofighter, Rafale, Super Hornet have can easily be eroded. In any case your adversaries are across the border from you, not half way round the world.  You can very easily have these off board radars fly over Indian airspace and provide the information to the Su 30MKI inside Chinese or Pakistani airspace.

    Based on the information that you have provided via those links it seems that Su 30MKI won the WVR contest while the Typhoon won the BVR contest, assuming it was a 1 vs 1 engagement.

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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  Austin on Mon Aug 10, 2015 12:46 pm

    jhelb wrote:

    Su 35 is getting the same MIRES system,AESA radar with side radars and new data-link that the PAK FA is getting.That's a very decent sensor fusion.

    Can you give some more information on Sensor Fusion works in case of Su-35 ? Any thing official brochure ?
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    medo

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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  medo on Mon Aug 10, 2015 6:01 pm

    http://www.knaapo.ru/media/eng/about/production/military/su-35/su-35_buklet_eng.pdf

    Although here it is a little difficultly writen, but yes, Su-35 have sensor fusion through FCS computer and datalink network for group operations. I'm sure Su-30SM have similar capabilities and most probably Su-30M2 and Su-27SM have a kind of sensor fusion with combining radar and IRST picture through FCS computer as well as L-150 pastel RWR, which is connected with FCS computer to program anti-radar missiles and they are also equipped with data links.

    I have no doubt, that Indian Su-30MKI have some kind of sensor fusion of radar, IRST and RWR picture through FCS computer, but I don't know, how well it is integrated as RWR is Indian made and data link is from Israel.

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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  Austin on Mon Aug 10, 2015 6:08 pm

    No where its mentioned in the link on Su-35 there is sensor fusion , I think only PAK-FA might have true sensor fusion in Russian aircraft like how Rafale or JSF has it.
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    medo

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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  medo on Mon Aug 10, 2015 6:35 pm

    http://www.sukhoi.org/eng/planes/military/Su-35/

    Depend on what you understand with "sensor fusion". Su-35 have information management system with two central digital computers, which collect all informations and show them in alphanumeric and symbolic informations on displays in cockpit. However you look, this is sensor fusion, as all informations go through central computer and show them in one collected picture. When your situation picture on display show all targets you got from radar, IRST, RWR, MAWS and data link and it doesn't matter which sensor detect which target, than it is sensor fusion.
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    Viktor

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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  Viktor on Mon Aug 10, 2015 6:49 pm

    Austin wrote:No where its mentioned in the link on Su-35 there is sensor fusion , I think only PAK-FA might have true sensor fusion in Russian aircraft like how Rafale or JSF has it.

    Where is that difference in the "sensor fusion" between Rafale and Su-30 you are talking about?

    What do you consider to be a "sensor fusion"? and you will never be able to find a american made word to promote USA fighter in the same text with the Russian fighter

    but if you use different word for example "sensor integration" you can easily get something like this.

    An information management system integrated with onboard subsystems and a new phased array radar system with long-range aerial target detection have been installed in the aircraft, which is currently undergoing preliminary testing.

    LINK

    Sensor fusion or sensor integration means integrating all your available sensor to get a clear picture about whats going on and based on that data using computer algorithms or man made

    decisions decide what to do next.

    But hey - how can US talk about sensor fusion when it lack sensors or data networking when it lack comunication means. Half of its fleet still does not have IRST one of the most

    important sensors whose data is fused. Its F-22 still lacks laser comunication and can therefore not comunicate with the rest of the fleet Very Happy

    On the other hand you have Su-35 who has Irbis/IRST/L-band radars/ECM/decoys all fused togeather forming single information picture coupled with artificial inteligence.

    PAK-FA designers have integrated (sensor fused) 5 on board radar sets + IRST + decoys + ECM and are talking about smart skin and other novelities. Where are now Americans

    with their smart sensor fusion talk Very Happy

    And from the official Sukhoi page ...

    The distinctive feature of Su-35 is the employment of a new suite of onboard instruments. Its core is the information management system (IMS), which integrates functional, logical, informational and software subsystems into a single complex that ensures the interaction between the crew and equipment.

    http://www.sukhoi.org/eng/planes/military/Su-35/

    Rostec

    A new avionics set based on the digital information management system, new radar, new engines with increased thrust and swiveling thrust vector are the distinctive features of this fighter jet.

    LINK

    Remember that Russians have since the 70 begin to integrate their PVO fighter squadrons by sensor fusion well within PVO working in a coordinated manner. By the 80ies

    MiG-31 could fire its weapons based on the date received from another MiG-31 at the same time passing on data to a Baikal command posts thus indirectly coordinating SAMs

    firing in coordination to its targets.

    You dont have to fall for every western propaganda piece around Austin.

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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  Austin on Mon Aug 10, 2015 7:20 pm

    Thanks Viktor and Medo , I think the terminology used is what tricked me Laughing

    So Indian Su-30 currently lacks that capability which integrated all the data from multiple sources
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    medo

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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  medo on Mon Aug 10, 2015 9:37 pm

    Austin wrote:Thanks Viktor and Medo , I think the terminology used is what tricked me Laughing

    So Indian Su-30 currently lacks that capability which integrated all the data from multiple sources

    Don't be too quick in judging. Indian Su-30MKI definitively have a sensor fusion between Bars-M radar and OLS-30 IRST as they both work inside fire control complex. I don't know for Indian RWR. If Indian Su-30MKI could program and lock anti-radar missiles through on board RWR, than it is integrated inside fire control complex, if they need additional pod for anti-radar missiles, than they are not. Su-30MKI is a mix of Russian and western (mostly Israeli) components, so the best source is IAF, who use Su-30MKI, how well this integration is done. Malaysian and Algerian Su-30MKM and Su-30MKA have Russian L-150 Pastel RWRs and ECM pods, Malaysian Su-30MKM have western MAWS and LWR sensors and Democles targeting pod. Russian Su-30SM is actually based on Malaysian Su-30MKM, not Indian Su-30MKI, that is why it have HUD from Thales.
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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  GarryB on Tue Aug 11, 2015 12:10 pm

    Sensor fusion is just about using software to blur where the information comes from.

    the pilot wont know and wont care where the information about the target or threat comes from... they will just want to know if it is timely and accurate.

    some radar antennas in the nose that reflect waves from the walls of nose and unify the waves?

    The waves are not unified... just detected... angle and strength.


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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  Austin on Tue Aug 11, 2015 5:29 pm


    Austin

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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  Austin on Tue Aug 11, 2015 5:45 pm

    Kindly check new development for Indian Super 30 MKI program , Dual IR channel based MAWS and new Mission Computer based on Power Architecture .....pretty much awesome

    http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6842&p=1884440#p1884428

    http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6842&p=1884440#p1884436
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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  jhelb on Tue Aug 11, 2015 7:19 pm

    Austin wrote:Kindly check new development for Indian Super 30 MKI program , Dual IR channel based MAWS and  new Mission Computer based on Power Architecture .....pretty much awesome

    http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6842&p=1884440#p1884428

    http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6842&p=1884440#p1884436

    When are you guys expecting to get the first Super Su 30?
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    medo

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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  medo on Tue Aug 11, 2015 8:04 pm



    Indian Su-30MKI use additional pod to use with anti-radar missiles. There is a question, if this is because of capabilities of Indian made RWRs or problem with integration with Russian fire control complex.

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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  Austin on Thu Aug 13, 2015 3:20 pm

    jhelb wrote:
    Austin wrote:Kindly check new development for Indian Super 30 MKI program , Dual IR channel based MAWS and  new Mission Computer based on Power Architecture .....pretty much awesome

    http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6842&p=1884440#p1884428

    http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6842&p=1884440#p1884436

    When are you guys expecting to get the first Super Su 30?

    Its under negotiation , The last interview with NIIP chief mentioned IAF was not sure to go for a new AESA or Irbis like radar for BARS upgrade.

    I would rather have a Irbis like radar fleet wide then AESA or few aircraft.

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    jhelb

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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  jhelb on Thu Aug 13, 2015 6:17 pm

    Austin wrote:Its under negotiation , The last interview with NIIP chief mentioned IAF was not sure to go for a new AESA or Irbis like radar for BARS upgrade.

    Look, I do not have the details about the Super Su 30 modernization program however if the Super Su 30 gets avionics/sensors that allows it to carry out terrain-hugging flight I suspect you guys can say goodbye to the Rafale because I feel that is the only thing that the Rafale can do that the Su 30MKI can't.

    Austin wrote:I would rather have a Irbis like radar fleet wide then AESA or few aircraft.

    Irbis is a great PESA radar, however if you are getting Tikhomirov's AESA radar as part of the Super 30 upgrade then take it by all means. An AESA antenna element can change its frequency of operation around 1000's of times per second. As a result, the radar beam does not operate at a single frequency, but rather, it is a very wide band signal. As the radar energy is now spread over a huge band, instead of a precise single frequency, the enemy thinks that this signal is simply background noise and ignores it.

    The only roadblock that I see is that  unlike the RuAF , the Indian AF will buy avionics from a number of Israeli, French maybe even US vendors. So compatibility of Tikhomirov's AESA radar with those avionics, fire control system can become an issue.

    All that said if your post in that Indian forum related to the delivery dates of the PAK FA to India are true then in all likelihood the Super 30 program will be cancelled. Su 30MKI will still be upgraded but the deep scale Super 30 program probably will be called off.



    http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6811&start=800

    In a way this makes sense, because after spending $5 billion + on Rafales it is natural that the Indian MoD will not have the budget for the Super Su 30 program.

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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  Austin on Fri Aug 14, 2015 12:46 pm

    Can some one tell me the advantage of getting Source Code of Radar that India Defence also insist upon ?

    One advantage which I always knew was getting source code would allow integration of Indian Weapons into the aircraft without having to rely on OEM to integrate it , For eg India recently tested its BVR Astra on Su-30MKI as India has BARS source code.

    What is the other advantage in getting source code of radar ?

    Thank You
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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  medo on Fri Aug 14, 2015 2:17 pm

    Austin wrote:Can some one tell me the advantage of getting Source Code of Radar that India Defence also insist upon ?

    One advantage which I always knew was getting source code would allow integration of Indian Weapons into the aircraft without having to rely on OEM to integrate it , For eg India recently tested its BVR Astra on Su-30MKI as India has BARS source code.

    What is the other advantage in getting source code of radar ?

    Thank You

    I don't think anyone is ready to give Source Codes for radars as then radar electronics and operational software is than compromised, specially if source codes are lost or comes to the wrong hands. Also if Indian user is doing his own changes in radar software to integrate foreign missile and than radar doesn't work properly, who will India blame? Most probably will NIIP have to repair damage and there will be big halo in medias, how Russian radars have defects in their software. That is why Indian Su-30MKI have two central computers, one is Russian made and one is Indian made, that India could integrate Indian and Israeli components in it. All other Su-30 have both central computers made in Russia.

    This is also the reason, why Tejas after 30 years of development is still not finished although India buy all components in the West, which are all for decades in use and well proven, that they work. Problem is, that India all those components from US, France and Israel could not integrate in one working complex, because no one want to compromise their products. If India did decades ago decide to use only Israeli components, than it would be operational for a decade now, but than the share of Israel in the plane will be around 80%. In that case it would be cheaper and better to simply buy a license to produce Israeli Lavi fighter.
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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  jhelb on Sat Aug 15, 2015 10:50 am

    Austin wrote:Can some one tell me the advantage of getting Source Code of Radar that India Defence also insist upon ?

    One advantage which I always knew was getting source code would allow integration of Indian Weapons into the aircraft without having to rely on OEM to integrate it , For eg India recently tested its BVR Astra on Su-30MKI as India has BARS source code.

    What is the other advantage in getting source code of radar ?

    Thank You


    The US has come up with an alternative solution by coming up with the Universal Armament Interface(UAI).

    UAI was designed to break the cycle of improved weapons carriage coming with scucessive software blocks because the complexity of integrating the weapon, then upgrading the software block meant that you could only do 1 economically at a time.

    If you design or upgrade your weapon to be UAI compatible, all you need to do is perform store separation and establish the physical launch envelope, there is no mission-system integration work. The Weapon talks to the UAI interface onboard the weapon that then converts the information/data to something the mission computers can comprehend.


    https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=2adb16f9cdff938f709a5da8e5708dc9&tab=core&_cview=1

    http://papers.sae.org/2012-01-2136/

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