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    Indian Su-30MKI: News

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    max steel
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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  max steel on Thu Aug 06, 2015 8:06 am

    higurashihougi wrote:Yeah !! russia russia

    http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/indian-air-forces-top-guns-score-wins-in-the-uk-1204336

    Indian Air Force Sukhois Dominate UK Fighter Jets in Combat Exercises

    In some of the most intense international air combat exercises ever featuring the Indian Air Force, IAF pilots flying Sukhoi Su-30 MKI fighters had a resounding 12-0 scoreline in their favour against Royal Air Force Typhoon jets in Within Visual Range (WVR) dogfighting operations.

    In subsequent Large Force Exercises (LFE) which featured combined Eurofighter Typhoon and Su-30 formations, the IAF jets were somewhat less successful but consistently held an edge over the Typhoon.


    It happened yesterday. Even India gave tough competn to.murikans F-15s in 2008 Exercise .

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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  xeno on Thu Aug 06, 2015 10:01 am

    Well some posts to this news on KP forum are interesting(or sour)...
    Some British members cannot take such a result...

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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  RTN on Thu Aug 06, 2015 10:16 am

    medo wrote:Su-30SM is more capable than export Su-30MKI/MKM in trust to weight ratio and in radar capabilities.

    Export version like the Su 30MKI do not have internal MAWS & internal jammer either.

    Austin wrote:In subsequent Large Force Exercises (LFE) which featured combined Typhoon and Su-30 formations, the IAF jets were somewhat less successful but consistently held an edge over the Typhoon.

    Naturally. In a BVR fight the Su 30MKI will not last for too long in the absence of internal MAWS & internal jammer. I suspect the Indians have realized that as well.

    http://armingindia.com/Pakistans-New-F-16s-Can-Beat-Indias-Su-30s-Rafales-Are-The-Counter=01-08-15.htm

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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  higurashihougi on Thu Aug 06, 2015 12:30 pm

    RTN wrote:Naturally. In a BVR fight the Su 30MKI will not last for too long in the absence of internal MAWS & internal jammer. I suspect the Indians have realized that as well.

    http://armingindia.com/Pakistans-New-F-16s-Can-Beat-Indias-Su-30s-Rafales-Are-The-Counter=01-08-15.htm

    Please explain.

    As far as I know Su-30's ECM is more powerful and effective than any kind of Western counterparts.

    And the article's claimed about F-16 can defeat Su-30 is totally bullshit.

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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  medo on Thu Aug 06, 2015 3:59 pm

    higurashihougi wrote:
    RTN wrote:Naturally. In a BVR fight the Su 30MKI will not last for too long in the absence of internal MAWS & internal jammer. I suspect the Indians have realized that as well.

    http://armingindia.com/Pakistans-New-F-16s-Can-Beat-Indias-Su-30s-Rafales-Are-The-Counter=01-08-15.htm

    Please explain.

    As far as I know Su-30's ECM is more powerful and effective than any kind of Western counterparts.

    And the article's claimed about F-16 can defeat Su-30 is totally bullshit.





    Indian Su-30MKI doesn't have Russian self protection equipment (ESM). Internally Indian Su-30MKI have only Indian made RWR sensors Tarang, for the rest, they are dependent on Israeli ELTA EL/M-8222 self protection jammer pod. From the picture it is quite clearly seen, that Indian Su-30MKI have empty tail fins as well as empty wing leading edge and in front of canards, except those RWR sensors in the front wing leading edge and on the tail sting.



    On the other hand Russian Su-30SM have standard L-150 Pastel RWRs on the wing leading edge and on the tail fins, where are also other sensors. It also have additional sensors on the wing leading edge and in front of canards and in tail sting in those white panels, so it have either internal jammers, either radar type MAWS or both. Considering, that Su-30SM will use wing tip jammer pods, like other Flankers and Su-34, so there is good possibility, that in those white panels are MAWS sensors.

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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  RTN on Thu Aug 06, 2015 6:55 pm

    higurashihougi wrote:Please explain.

    As far as I know Su-30's ECM is more powerful and effective than any kind of Western counterparts.

    And the article's claimed about F-16 can defeat Su-30 is totally bullshit.

    Without a MAWS the pilot of a Su 30MKI will not be able to get missile speed, distance, relative altitude and time to intercept information.

    The pilot of a Su 30 SM on the other hand would use this information from the MAWS to place the weapon "on the beam" (directly to his left or right) which forces the missile to use up its energy turning to a constantly changing intercept point. Then, as the missile closes in, the pilot would execute a max-G turn in the direction of the missile, forcing it to turn even tighter to intercept, hopefully tighter than the missile is able to turn thus falling behind the aircraft.

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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  JohninMK on Thu Aug 06, 2015 9:45 pm

    Austin wrote:
    http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/indian-air-forces-top-guns-score-wins-in-the-uk-1204336?pfrom=home-lateststories

    NEW DELHI:  In some of the most intense international air combat exercises ever featuring the Indian Air Force, IAF pilots flying Sukhoi 30 MKI fighters had a resounding 12-0 scoreline in their favour against Royal Air Force Typhoon jets in Within Visual Range (WVR) dogfighting operations.

    In subsequent Large Force Exercises (LFE) which featured combined Typhoon and Su-30 formations, the IAF jets were somewhat less successful but consistently held an edge over the Typhoon.

    In an exclusive interview, Group Captain Ashu Srivastav, the Contingent Commander in the exercises, told NDTV that the performance of his pilots was "exceptional." According to Group Captain Srivastav, who happens to be the IAF's most experienced Su-30 pilot, his pilots showed "flexibility and adaptability to a new environment and operating conditions and on this benchmark, I would rate them exceptional."

    A Sukhoi 30 MKI fighter jet of the Indian Air Force

    The Indians did not have home advantage either as these were exercises in UK airspace with the Su-30s flown over from India. This is a full article on their trip to the UK.

    http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/indian-air-forces-top-guns-score-wins-in-the-uk-1204336



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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  Austin on Fri Aug 07, 2015 1:32 pm

    I had this question as I was following the MKI debate on BRF

    http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6842&start=800#p1882448

    Its mentioned there "Typhoon is a similar design philosophy to the F-15C and the F-22A, i.e.. a lot of emphasis on acceleration, climb, 40,000+ feet altitudes and the turn fight..Not so much on the mid-lower altitude, close quarter dogfighting side of the envelope."

    So is it true that at 40K feel MKI would be at a disadvantage against Typhoon as the latter is optimised for high speed flight and former for subsonic low altitude ?

    Does MKI has advantage over Typhoon in BVR combat

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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  higurashihougi on Sat Aug 08, 2015 7:42 am

    Its mentioned there "Typhoon is a similar design philosophy to the F-15C and the F-22A, i.e.. a lot of emphasis on acceleration, climb, 40,000+ feet altitudes and the turn fight..Not so much on the mid-lower altitude, close quarter dogfighting side of the envelope."

    No.

    Typhoon aerodynamic design is a degenerated version of Russian Ye-8. In Ye-8, at large AoA wind can go through the gap between the wing and horizontal tail to access with the vertical stabilizer. Meanwhile, in Typhoon, at large AoA the vertical stab is blocked by the wing and the hull, and then lost its function.

    Therefore Typhoon and other EUcanard can't have large AoA and has very low maneuverability.

    Meanwhile, F-15 and F-22 has the gap between horizontal tail and wind. And they have two vertical stabs which are positioned so that they are not blocked by the hull. That configuration is learned from MiG-25/31. That means F-15 and F-22 can achieve great AoA and is good at dogfight.

    So is it true that at 40K feel MKI would be at a disadvantage against Typhoon as the latter is optimised for high speed flight and former for subsonic low altitude ?

    It is right that Typhoon max speed is slightly higher than Su-30 (M2.2 > M2) and it is right that EUcanard configuration is favorable for forward movement at high speed. But maneuverability of Typhoon is pathetic.

    Maneuverability is a distinctive characteristic for air fight, both long range and short range. It enable you to escape the incoming missiles or escape the radar vision of the enemy, etc etc. In air fight, Typhoon can't win against Su-30.

    Does MKI has advantage over Typhoon in BVR combat

    Yes.

    Su-30 radar is bigger than Typhoon, that means it has better angular resolution.

    Su-30 radar is PESA with dynamic shifted phase, that means it has advantage about the cleanliness, purity and quality of the signal, and it can quickly oscillate the radar beam like AESA.

    Su-30 has 240 degree radar vision, much larger than Typhoon.

    And as far as I know, Su-30's ECM is far superior than the West.

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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  Austin on Sat Aug 08, 2015 7:59 am

    Thank You , How about Rafale is it better off ? IAF is purchasing atleast few squadrons of it.

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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  GarryB on Sat Aug 08, 2015 8:16 am

    You can have 10 Su-30MKIs for the price of one Typhoon... Smile

    And of course if you wanted give them a MAWs upgrade they should be comparable... adding the RVV-BD missile it should have a decent range advantage too.

    Equally I would say the flight range and weapon capacity would be better in terms of the Flanker not needing external fuel tanks for most missions.


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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  Austin on Sat Aug 08, 2015 8:29 am

    GarryB wrote:You can have 10 Su-30MKIs for the price of one Typhoon...  Smile

    And of course if you wanted give them a MAWs upgrade they should be comparable... adding the RVV-BD missile it should have a decent range advantage too.

    Equally I would say the flight range and weapon capacity would be better in terms of the Flanker not needing external fuel tanks for most missions.

    I am not sure if that is true , Recently Indian MOD quoted price of Su-30MKI at $60 million

    http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/analysis-india39s-fighters-battle-for-relevance-408269/


    The air force received its first overhauled Su-30MKI (SB 027) from HAL in January. The overhaul facility at HAL Nashik is the first to be set up for the type globally. HAL chairman RK Tyagi says the airframer will now act as “a single window original equipment manufacturer for supporting the Su-30MKI fleet”.

    “We are confident of improving the serviceability and ramping up capacity,” he adds.

    New Su-30MKI’s delivered by HAL are estimated to cost $60 million each, with a comprehensive 14 year/1,500h overhaul costing the operator just under $20 million. With a second overhauled fighter now due for delivery, HAL says it can overhaul 15 aircraft annually at Nashik. Presently the total technical life of an Su-30MKI is 6,000h/25 years, and time between overhaul for its NPO Saturn AL31FP engines is 1,000h, with a total technical life of 2,000h. The time between overhaul and total technical life for the thrust vector nozzle is half of that of the engine.


    Last edited by Austin on Sat Aug 08, 2015 8:38 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  sepheronx on Sat Aug 08, 2015 8:30 am

    Austin wrote:
    GarryB wrote:You can have 10 Su-30MKIs for the price of one Typhoon...  Smile

    And of course if you wanted give them a MAWs upgrade they should be comparable... adding the RVV-BD missile it should have a decent range advantage too.

    Equally I would say the flight range and weapon capacity would be better in terms of the Flanker not needing external fuel tanks for most missions.

    I am not sure if that is true , Recently Indian MOD quoted price of Su-30MKI at $60 million

    What comes with that price? Rouble value dropped, so overall costs dropped as well. Does that come with spares and training? Su-35S is had for much cheaper as an example.

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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  higurashihougi on Sat Aug 08, 2015 9:56 am

    Austin wrote:Thank You , How about Rafale is it better off ? IAF is purchasing atleast few squadrons of it.

    No. Rafale is even inferior to Typhoon. At least Typhoon has electronically controlled air inlet, while Rafale uses ram inlet.

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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  Austin on Sat Aug 08, 2015 10:30 am

    What about sensor fusion on Su-30 , Typhoon claims to have sensor fusion

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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  Austin on Sat Aug 08, 2015 10:35 am

    Can any one possibly join BRF and debunk some myth on Su-30

    http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6842&sid=592e39695362750a177168820dc76776&start=840


    Check the thread the reporter who broke the new of 12-0 said he stood by his report

    http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6842&start=840#p1882923

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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  jhelb on Sat Aug 08, 2015 11:08 am

    Austin wrote:Can any one possibly join BRF and debunk some myth on Su-30

    http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6842&sid=592e39695362750a177168820dc76776&start=840

    Jesus Christ, the link you gave basically reflects how these guys are trying to peddle their ignorance, nothing more, nothing less.

    It seems this forum needs an work email ID to join and I am unwilling to use mine for official reasons.


    Austin wrote:Check the thread the reporter who broke the new of 12-0 said he stood by his report

    http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6842&start=840#p1882923

    Who is the reporter ?  This guy says, assuming he is the reporter.

    " I accept that there are sensitivities and yes, I was able to access more on-the-record information than many in the UK or perhaps even in some quarters of the IAF would have liked - but the information stands."

    Ok, where is his " more on-the-record information" ?


    Austin wrote:What about sensor fusion on Su-30 , Typhoon claims to have sensor fusion

    Export model Su 30s do not have sensor fusion. Data from different sources like datalinks and sensors are presented separately without data fusion. Indian Su 30s uses Israeli datalinks.


    What comes with that price? Rouble value dropped, so overall costs dropped as well.

    So what? Exports are paid in either USD or Euros. Are you saying that if the price of an export model Su 30 was say $50 million 2 years ago, it suddenly fell to $40 million or $30 million this year just because the value of the Rouble fell?

    The price of raw materials that Russia has to import to design aircraft also went up because the value of the Rouble fell.

    Does that come with spares and training?

    It comes with some spares not training.

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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  GarryB on Sat Aug 08, 2015 11:43 am

    60 million including a 20 million overhaul... means they actually cost 40 million each... certainly not 10 times cheaper, but you would get rather more than three Flankers for each typhoon... is one typhoon better than three flankers?

    The Flanker has a future of getting 5th gen avionics from the FFGA programme... will the west spend as much on the Typhoon and share that for free with its customers?


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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  jhelb on Sat Aug 08, 2015 11:51 am

    GarryB wrote:60 million including a 20 million overhaul... means they actually cost 40 million each...

    They are referring to new Su 30MKI that cost $ 60 million. It depends on configuration. Instead of a $20 million overhaul you can go for less. They do not give details about the new configuration that costs $20 million so we do not know the details.

    Point is the cost of a new Su 30MKI that is made in India will now cost them $60 million not $40 million.

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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  Austin on Mon Aug 10, 2015 11:37 am

    jhelb wrote:Export model Su 30s do not have sensor fusion. Data from different sources like datalinks and sensors are presented separately without data fusion. Indian Su 30s uses Israeli datalinks.

    Are you sure if Russian Su-30SM or 35 has Sensor Fusion

    http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7029&start=440#p1883761

    The powerful data fusion algorithms combine and compare the data gathered by all Rafale sensors, and accurately position and identify targets. It’s much more than simple correlation as it gives the pilot an accurate and unambiguous tactical picture. One of the key advantages of the system is its ability to identify and classified the type of target/threat, by using either the Spectra suite or the TV sensor of the FSO. When all tracks are positively identified, the system automatically creates a synthetic image with all enemy and friendly tracks shown in a clear and explicit way. Off-board sensor can also contribute data to the integrated tactical air picture, via the datalink. Wingmen or AEW aircraft can feed their data to the leader’s system, thus helping target-sorting and co-operation within the formation. Multichannel target acquisition/ tracking associated with smart sensor fusion key-enabler which will radically change the face of air warfare. This combination of multisensor technology and smart data fusion significantly increases mission success rates through enhanced crew awareness and improved aircraft survivability. With its multisensor technology, its advanced data fusion management system, and its remarkable Man-Machine Interface (MMI), the Rafale clearly stands in a category of its own and no other fighter in the world has such a wide array of systems at its disposal.


    IF you are aware either Su-30SM or Su-35 has any sensor fusion similar to Rafale ? Any literature in English about it

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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  jhelb on Mon Aug 10, 2015 12:39 pm

    Austin wrote:Are you sure if Russian Su-30SM or 35 has Sensor Fusion

    Su 35 is getting the same MIRES system,AESA radar with side radars and new data-link that the PAK FA is getting.That's a very decent sensor fusion.

    One advantage that you guys in India have with your Su 30MKI is that it is a tandem seat aircraft. Ergo,the two pilots will be able to perform interleaved operations concurrently thereby reducing workload-related stress.

    Invest in some decent off-board radars like AWACS, JSTARS and ASTOR and the BVR advantage that aircraft like Eurofighter, Rafale, Super Hornet have can easily be eroded. In any case your adversaries are across the border from you, not half way round the world.  You can very easily have these off board radars fly over Indian airspace and provide the information to the Su 30MKI inside Chinese or Pakistani airspace.

    Based on the information that you have provided via those links it seems that Su 30MKI won the WVR contest while the Typhoon won the BVR contest, assuming it was a 1 vs 1 engagement.

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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  Austin on Mon Aug 10, 2015 12:46 pm

    jhelb wrote:

    Su 35 is getting the same MIRES system,AESA radar with side radars and new data-link that the PAK FA is getting.That's a very decent sensor fusion.

    Can you give some more information on Sensor Fusion works in case of Su-35 ? Any thing official brochure ?

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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  medo on Mon Aug 10, 2015 6:01 pm

    http://www.knaapo.ru/media/eng/about/production/military/su-35/su-35_buklet_eng.pdf

    Although here it is a little difficultly writen, but yes, Su-35 have sensor fusion through FCS computer and datalink network for group operations. I'm sure Su-30SM have similar capabilities and most probably Su-30M2 and Su-27SM have a kind of sensor fusion with combining radar and IRST picture through FCS computer as well as L-150 pastel RWR, which is connected with FCS computer to program anti-radar missiles and they are also equipped with data links.

    I have no doubt, that Indian Su-30MKI have some kind of sensor fusion of radar, IRST and RWR picture through FCS computer, but I don't know, how well it is integrated as RWR is Indian made and data link is from Israel.

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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  Austin on Mon Aug 10, 2015 6:08 pm

    No where its mentioned in the link on Su-35 there is sensor fusion , I think only PAK-FA might have true sensor fusion in Russian aircraft like how Rafale or JSF has it.

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    Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News

    Post  medo on Mon Aug 10, 2015 6:35 pm

    http://www.sukhoi.org/eng/planes/military/Su-35/

    Depend on what you understand with "sensor fusion". Su-35 have information management system with two central digital computers, which collect all informations and show them in alphanumeric and symbolic informations on displays in cockpit. However you look, this is sensor fusion, as all informations go through central computer and show them in one collected picture. When your situation picture on display show all targets you got from radar, IRST, RWR, MAWS and data link and it doesn't matter which sensor detect which target, than it is sensor fusion.

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