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    Russian Helicopter ATGMs

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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Helicopter ATGMs

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jun 25, 2015 11:17 am

    It is important to keep in mind the platforms involved and their job.

    In the early 1980s you have the Hind operating with Su-25s in attack or with Mi-8 Hips dropping in troops.

    In the former job 5km range guided missiles is plenty for daylight only attacks on point hard targets and rockets and light cannon/HMG for area targets.

    Fitting the Hind with a 20km range guided missile would be a total waste of time.

    Today however, with their long range sensors, high speed and connection to a battle network that will include all sorts of data sourced from UAVs and recon units and satellites and finding targets deep behind enemy lines becomes much more likely.

    Of course having a range of 20km does not mean using it from 20km with every shot... most of the time it will be from less than half that, but a well protected target can be weakened from a distance so even against a very strong enemy these weapons will be useful in reducing a strong defence to the point where other assets can get closer and finish it off.

    Hermes will be very useful for Su-25 and its replacement aircraft too due to the standoff range it will confer on the aircraft making attacks much safer without compromising accuracy.


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    Cyrus the great

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    Russian ATGM missiles

    Post  Cyrus the great on Fri Jun 26, 2015 11:27 pm

    GarryB wrote:It is important to keep in mind the platforms involved and their job.

    In the early 1980s you have the Hind operating with Su-25s in attack or with Mi-8 Hips dropping in troops.

    In the former job 5km range guided missiles is plenty for daylight only attacks on point hard targets and rockets and light cannon/HMG for area targets.

    Fitting the Hind with a 20km range guided missile would be a total waste of time.

    Today however, with their long range sensors, high speed and connection to a battle network that will include all sorts of data sourced from UAVs and recon units and satellites and finding targets deep behind enemy lines becomes much more likely.

    Of course having a range of 20km does not mean using it from 20km with every shot... most of the time it will be from less than half that, but a well protected target can be weakened from a distance so even against a very strong enemy these weapons will be useful in reducing a strong defence to the point where other assets can get closer and finish it off.

    Hermes will be very useful for Su-25 and its replacement aircraft too due to the standoff range it will confer on the aircraft making attacks much safer without compromising accuracy.

    The Ka-52 would be a perfect candidate for a 20 km missile if or when the Russians feel that they need such a capability. I like the fact that the Russians are keeping close air support aircraft like the Su-25 instead of deluding themselves with the notion that an aircraft like the F-35 can take its place in CAS operations.
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    George1

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    Re: Russian Helicopter ATGMs

    Post  George1 on Sun Jun 28, 2015 10:02 am

    I have read that 9M120 Ataka missile is often confused with 9K121 Vikhr, although are 2 different systems.

    Mil Moscow Helicopter Plant favours the former, while Sukhoi and Kamov favour the latter.



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    Kyo

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    Re: Russian Helicopter ATGMs

    Post  Kyo on Fri Oct 23, 2015 2:10 pm

    Kalashnikov Delivered First Batch of Vikhr 1 Missiles to Russian Army



    Is this old, or a newcomer?
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    Militarov

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    Re: Russian Helicopter ATGMs

    Post  Militarov on Fri Oct 23, 2015 2:23 pm

    Kyo wrote:Kalashnikov Delivered First Batch of Vikhr 1 Missiles to Russian Army



    Is this old, or a newcomer?

    Interesting article coz from what i know Vikhr-1 was adopted into service in early 90s and it was ordered before too but not in significant amounts, i dont think they are first, its probably refering to "first batch of 6000 ordered".

    "August 6, 2013: Russia has ordered over 6,000 Vikhr (9K121/AT-16) laser guided missiles. The $400 million order was in part to prevent the manufacturer from going bankrupt. The 45 kg (99 pound) Vikhr is similar to the American Hellfire, but did not show up until 1990. Sales have been slow since then, in part because another Russian manufacturer had a similar missile (Ataka V). While Vikhr is similar in size and function to Hellfire, it uses a different (laser beam riding) laser guidance system. Vikhr has a max range of 10 kilometers and a 10 kg (22 pound) warhead. It is primarily used on Ka-50/52 helicopters and Su-25 ground attack aircraft. The older (and more numerous) Mi-24 helicopter uses the Ataka V."
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    sepheronx

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    Vikhr (9K121/AT-16)

    Post  sepheronx on Fri Oct 23, 2015 7:19 pm

    There was an issue with the quality of the Vikhr's in the past. So they had to make changes. Apparently, according to TR1 over at the keypub forums that Kalashnikov plant figured out the issues and updated production of them. So there should be an updated and more quality variant of the Vikhr missile.
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    George1

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    Re: Russian Helicopter ATGMs

    Post  George1 on Fri Jan 08, 2016 12:29 am

    I think Ataka will mainly be carried by Ka-52 and the land version maybe we see it in future IFV/BMPT


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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Helicopter ATGMs

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jan 08, 2016 12:48 am

    Ataka is an evolution of Shturm... the original AT-6 Spiral.

    The current evolution of that missile is the Krisantema which has dual guidance and longer range and rather better armour penetration performance than Ataka.

    Ataka is currently the standard ATGM of the Mi-28N and late model Hinds and has been seen on the Ka-52 on an unusual three lots of twin tubes on one pylon mounting.

    With Vikhrs in production I think the Ka-52s will have the option of Atakas, Krisantema, and Vikhr with the future option of Hermes, while the Mi-28N and M models will likely use Atakas and Krisantemas and in the future get Hermes. I suspect the Hinds will continue to use Atakas and Krisantema.

    I suspect production will focus on Krisantema and stocks of Ataka will just get used up and it will only remain in production for export.

    Vikhr is a very cheap missile to produce, as will be the Krisantema while the Hermes will be the big heavy capable missile that is carried when needed.

    I rather suspect they have enormous numbers of Atakas and even perhaps some Shturm missiles which based on the performance of Konkurs should be perfectly effective for a wide range of targets for the forseeable future... while stocks last.

    I suspect the Krisantema and the Vikhr will remain in production as the cheap numbers missiles for a range of platforms (Krisantema for Mi-28N/M and Hind and Ka-52, Vikhr for Ka-52 and Su-25, as cheap but effective enough weapons and Hermes as the future heavy air to ground ATGM weapon for pretty much all anti armour aircraft including unmanned and ground based....)

    With the unification of the missiles with Pantsir-S is interesting... the Hermes is terminally guided while the Pantsir-S is command guided... I would suspect both could be used against both ground and air targets... if the threat is from the ground then a 40 tube HERMES launcher would be a potent defence but if the threat is UAVs then that 40 tube launcher could be loaded with cheap command guided missiles controlled by a nearby Pantsir-S system.

    Instead of an air defence unit to support other units it could be an air and ground defence unit... multipurpose...


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    Re: Russian Helicopter ATGMs

    Post  Werewolf on Fri Apr 15, 2016 11:22 pm

    Since Spherenox mentioned a discussion on keypub about ATGM's, i read a little bit... well what can i say i am not even surprised by so many nonsense talk and hurt feelings of some individuals taking everything personal if they are not right with their uneducated assumptions. So many funny misconceptions about Fire and Forget weapons, helicopters purposes and what not. Kind of funny to read, but my fingers itch. Smile

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    Re: Russian Helicopter ATGMs

    Post  Cyrus the great on Sat Sep 24, 2016 8:35 pm

    I can finally thank you guys (Garry and Werewolf) for so kindly taking time to answer my questions and educating me.


    Question: How does the Vikhr missile penetrate more armour than the Hellfire when it has a warhead with a smaller diameter? Now, as you know the Vikhr has a diameter of 130mm whereas the Hellfire has a diameter of 178mm.
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    Re: Russian Helicopter ATGMs

    Post  GarryB on Sun Sep 25, 2016 5:11 am

    Question: How does the Vikhr missile penetrate more armour than the Hellfire when it has a warhead with a smaller diameter? Now, as you know the Vikhr has a diameter of 130mm whereas the Hellfire has a diameter of 178mm.

    Note I said all things being equal a larger calibre will penetrate more than a smaller calibre.

    There are a lot of other variables... including but not only... the metal used in the shaped charge cone, the amount of explosive used, and of course whether tandem charges are used or not.

    Remember the most powerful HEAT 125mm tank gun round has a small precursor charge to defeat ERA and then two full calibre HEAT warheads designed to fire in order.


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    Re: Russian Helicopter ATGMs

    Post  Werewolf on Mon Sep 26, 2016 11:13 am

    Cyrus the great wrote:
    Question: How does the Vikhr missile penetrate more armour than the Hellfire when it has a warhead with a smaller diameter? Now, as you know the Vikhr has a diameter of 130mm whereas the Hellfire has a diameter of 178mm.


    There are some aspects in missile design that give a increase in penetration potential based on shaped charge, explosive filler and arrangement of  interior design which functions aswell as a probe for the shaped charge to form a penetrator.

    The Vikhr's seeker and guidance system is at the back, the fuel cell and engine is at the center and the HE-F charge along the shaped charge are the front with the proximity fuze segment. The Vikhr uses only its hollow tip as a probe without much interference for the Penetrator while it is forming and moving forward towards armor/object it hit. The angle the explosive charge around the Cone is also slightly better angled than the shaped charge of the Hellfire which is bulkier for better HE effect.

    The Hellfire has its Missile seeker circuit and electronic in the front section, in front of the warhead segment which is at the middle. In contact detonation on armor the forming cone of copper while moving forward has to pass  through the soft but still objects as the entire guidance seeker head while it has not much of penetration capability. Thus its full potential is decreased by the missile design, which is not big of a deal when successfully launched in high-trajectory (Top attack), less effective when launched in low-trajectory (direct attack).

    The other point is the warhead segment of the Vikhr weights 11.5kg compared to the AGM-114K which weights 9kg. There is a bit of a difference there.

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    Re: Russian Helicopter ATGMs

    Post  Cyrus the great on Wed Oct 05, 2016 4:43 pm

    Werewolf wrote:
    There are some aspects in missile design that give a increase in penetration potential based on shaped charge, explosive filler and arrangement of  interior design which functions aswell as a probe for the shaped charge to form a penetrator.

    The Vikhr's seeker and guidance system is at the back, the fuel cell and engine is at the center and the HE-F charge along the shaped charge are the front with the proximity fuze segment. The Vikhr uses only its hollow tip as a probe without much interference for the Penetrator while it is forming and moving forward towards armor/object it hit. The angle the explosive charge around the Cone is also slightly better angled than the shaped charge of the Hellfire which is bulkier for better HE effect.

    The Hellfire has its Missile seeker circuit and electronic in the front section, in front of the warhead segment which is at the middle. In contact detonation on armor the forming cone of copper while moving forward has to pass  through the soft but still objects as the entire guidance seeker head while it has not much of penetration capability. Thus its full potential is decreased by the missile design, which is not big of a deal when successfully launched in high-trajectory (Top attack), less effective when launched in low-trajectory (direct attack).

    The other point is the warhead segment of the Vikhr weights 11.5kg compared to the AGM-114K which weights 9kg. There is a bit of a difference there.

    That's very revealing. I was trying to wrap my head around how in the world the Vikhr outperforms the Hellfire in that department but your post comprehensively sums it up. I assume that if the designers of the Hellfire had placed the electro-optical component of its targeting system at the back, it would perform better than it currently does. The Vikhr has better range, penetration and significantly higher speed than the Hellfire but it's crucially not fire-and-forget... so why isn't there a Vikhr variant with a mmw seeker and an electro-optical seeker?
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    Re: Russian Helicopter ATGMs

    Post  Werewolf on Wed Oct 05, 2016 7:11 pm

    It was never introduced to service mainly because of cost and over time cost for maintenance since it wears down gun barrels for only little additional penetration capability. APC's and IFV's main weapon to fight against anything that is a threat is still ATGM's.

    That's very revealing. I was trying to wrap my head around how in the world the Vikhr outperforms the Hellfire in that department but your post comprehensively sums it up. I assume that if the designers of the Hellfire had placed the electro-optical component of its targeting system at the back, it would perform better than it currently does. The Vikhr has better range, penetration and significantly higher speed than the Hellfire but it's crucially not fire-and-forget... so why isn't there a Vikhr variant with a mmw seeker and an electro-optical seeker?

    The hellfire would lose one of its advantages if they had moved the missile seeker to the back and made it a LBR. It would lose the ability for LOAL capability and would need it to sue manually on target, even tho this is common practice for skilled WSO's for rapid Hellfire engagements for several idling tanks like seen in some cases in iraq.

    Vikhr had a version proposal but it never gone forward due to cost for missile unit aswell since the program for mast mounted Arbalet was closed.
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    Re: Russian Helicopter ATGMs

    Post  GarryB on Thu Oct 06, 2016 9:51 am

    Fire and forget is over rated...

    I remember recently seeing video of missiles fired by Havocs missing targets in Syria and it reminded me of similar footage of Hellfires missing targets in Iraq.

    Very simply the Vikhr has an auto target tracker so the missile will be guided to impact to the target without interference from the operator.

    The difference is that the Vikhr is a much faster missile and will get to the target in a shorter period of time so the time spent lasing the target will be much shorter and also even right up until the point of impact the operator can abort the attack.

    With fire and forget you really can't tell what it will actually lock on to... a tank already hit several times still has the same MMW radar signature because a small hole in its side does not change its radar signature.

    For that matter the sun shining on a rock during the heat of the day can look like a tank with its engine running.... a heat source is a heat source.

    In comparison the Vikhr can pretty much be aimed at anything with an IR or radar signature or not. It can be aimed at the third window on the fourth floor in a 15 story building, or a log bunker... or the top of a tree.

    Vikhr is much cheaper because it is fire and forget but the launch aircraft is safer because of the missile range and speed.


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    Re: Russian Helicopter ATGMs

    Post  franco on Wed Oct 12, 2016 11:30 pm

    Prototype Mil-28NM completed it's first test flight.

    MOSCOW, October 12 -. RIA Novosti pilot batch of modernized attack helicopters "Night Hunter" Mi-28NM will go into production in 2018, told reporters on Wednesday the general director of "Helicopters of Russia" Alexander Mikheyev.

    "An experienced pilot batch will have in 2018," - he said, responding to a question.

    So far built only one prototype, which made its first flight today.

    When you create a Mi-28nm designers was taken into account the experience of the development of training and combat Mi-28UB: in the front cabin of the new helicopter has a second set of controls. On sighting the helicopter as a new-flight control and navigation system has been installed, equipped with computing means increased performance. Cabin crew reliable armored, that provides protection against armor-piercing bullets and projectiles caliber 20 mm.

    In addition, the modernization undergone cabin crew commander and pilot-operator will now receive a more complete and accessible information on the environment and the operation of all vehicle systems that facilitate collaboration and accelerate decision-making in the field.

    Also, a helicopter equipped with advanced radar nadvtulochnoy has enhanced capabilities in the use of precision weapons, including homing missiles, the use of which can significantly reduce the time spent combat helicopter in potentially hazardous situations.

    Among the advantages of the helicopter - the resistance to combat damage, which is achieved through the use of new materials and design solutions. The main rotor blades of the helicopter are made of composite materials that allows you to safely complete the flight when hit by 20-30 mm caliber shells. The design of the fuel system excludes explosion or ignition of the fuel.

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    Re: Russian Helicopter ATGMs

    Post  Cyrus the great on Fri Oct 14, 2016 5:49 pm


    Werewolf wrote:
    The hellfire would lose one of its advantages if they had moved the missile seeker to the back and made it a LBR. It would lose the ability for LOAL capability and would need it to sue manually on target, even tho this is common practice for skilled WSO's for rapid Hellfire engagements for several idling tanks like seen in some cases in iraq.

    Vikhr had a version proposal but it never gone forward due to cost for missile unit aswell since the program for mast mounted Arbalet was closed.

    Thanks, Werewolf. The Vikhr is a better missile in most instances and can be used effectively without breaking the bank, and if fire-and-forget missiles are needed the Hermes Missile is light years ahead of the Hellfire missile. The speed, range and warhead advantages this missile has over other missiles is just obscene.


    Garry B wrote:Fire and forget is over rated...

    I remember recently seeing video of missiles fired by Havocs missing targets in Syria and it reminded me of similar footage of Hellfires missing targets in Iraq.

    Very simply the Vikhr has an auto target tracker so the missile will be guided to impact to the target without interference from the operator.

    The difference is that the Vikhr is a much faster missile and will get to the target in a shorter period of time so the time spent lasing the target will be much shorter and also even right up until the point of impact the operator can abort the attack.

    With fire and forget you really can't tell what it will actually lock on to... a tank already hit several times still has the same MMW radar signature because a small hole in its side does not change its radar signature.

    For that matter the sun shining on a rock during the heat of the day can look like a tank with its engine running.... a heat source is a heat source.

    In comparison the Vikhr can pretty much be aimed at anything with an IR or radar signature or not. It can be aimed at the third window on the fourth floor in a 15 story building, or a log bunker... or the top of a tree.

    Vikhr is much cheaper because it is fire and forget but the launch aircraft is safer because of the missile range and speed.

    There is no doubt that the Vikhr missile is a far better missile and is significantly more cost effective -- something that is obviously of tremendous importance to any military, even wasteful militaries like that of the United States. I get what you're saying but don't dual-mode seekers solve this problem, albeit at a prohibitevly higher cost? The Vikhr missile is perfectly suitable for virtually every engagement and in the rare cases in which a fire-and-forget missile was absolutely required, the Hermes missile accomplishes that objective ten fold. I was surprised by how much more accurate the Mokopa missile is in comparison to the Hellfire missile
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    Re: Russian Helicopter ATGMs

    Post  Werewolf on Fri Oct 14, 2016 9:31 pm

    Russia has KH-25 for fire and forget purposes be it HARM guidance or TV/IIR guidance with stand-off range in comparision to any current heliborne ATGM.
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    Re: Russian Helicopter ATGMs

    Post  GarryB on Sat Oct 15, 2016 10:40 am

    Even with dual mode seekers you need to be sure of the target and of course any seeker can be defeated.

    The simplest and cheapest guidance methods are often better... if you went into combat in the NZ Army in somewhere like Iraq or Afghanistan and you had the choice of 5 Javelins for you entire tour or 200 Metis-M1s with thermal sights but missiles that are dumb command guided rounds and you start to see the difference.

    The Javelin is on paper a fire and forget weapon but in practise to get a lock it needs a clear IR target... what if the enemy have top camo for their vehicles in position... so from the side you get your lock and launch your javelin... it climbs up and then dives onto your target... but after climbing it looks for its target and sees a camo net and no target... a cloud of dust or smoke will have the same effect...

    And if you are firing the missile at the suspected location of a sniper or enemy machine gun or ATGM team position you might have nothing your IIR seeker can lock on to.

    METIS is cheap and simple and you can point it at anything.

    And you can use it in enormous numbers...

    In terms of SAMs most new Russian SAMs are simple cheap command guided missiles... Pantsir and TOR are obvious examples.

    They are also working on Morfei and have Verba and likely a MMW radar seeker for small missiles too... but so far they are too expensive to be everywhere and used in enormous numbers... unlike TOR and Pantsir.


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    Re: Russian Helicopter ATGMs

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Fri Oct 21, 2016 2:23 pm

    Hey see we have these Vihr missiles, they're supersonic, polyvalent and have extended range!

    Nope we're going to modernize our rust pipes, because we can.
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    Re: Russian Helicopter ATGMs

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Fri Oct 21, 2016 3:45 pm

    JohninMK wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:Hey see we have these Vihr missiles, they're supersonic, polyvalent and have extended range!

    Nope we're going to modernize our rust pipes, because we can.
    Yes because its cheap and cost effective.

    Just look what the US, and probably everyone else as well, will be doing given they are gearing up to 20k pa. OK the price is crazy (but BAE pays British Corporation Tax  Very Happy ) but its a very good concept.

    BAE Systems has been awarded a three-year contract from the US Navy worth up to $600 million to support deliveries of its Advanced Precision Kill Weapon System (APKWS).

    This is the first indefinite delivery, indefinite quantity (IDIQ) contract for the precision-guided weapon system, and will support a ramp-up of deliveries from 1,500-2,000 units at the current rate to 5,000 in the first year of the new arrangement.

    APKWS is a laser-guidance kit that converts 2.75in-diameter (70mm) rockets into precision-guided weapons. Some 7,000 units have been delivered to date, the company says, and rounds will be provided to all US services through the new deal with the USN.


    https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/bae-to-up-the-pace-on-apkws-production-430531/

    It's not cheap neither cost effective. You're going to upgrade Ataka's which are limited, instead of going for the Vihr that has already all requirements of your upgrade and some. It's one thing to turn dumb ordnance into "smart" one, it's another to extend the range and upgrade the guidance on your smart ordinance. In both cases it would mean new production from there on.

    The cost of upgrade will always bee greater than the cost of building new systems that can be upgraded later. You're just delaying the inevitable. When looking at the T72B3 upgrade and then looking at the T90, one can understand that the Upgrade can't cut it as well as the real deal.
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    Re: Russian Helicopter ATGMs

    Post  GarryB on Sat Oct 22, 2016 11:06 am

    The cost of upgrade will always bee greater than the cost of building new systems that can be upgraded later. You're just delaying the inevitable. When looking at the T72B3 upgrade and then looking at the T90, one can understand that the Upgrade can't cut it as well as the real deal.

    Not true.

    They clearly said they were going to upgrade both the ATAKA and the Krisantema.

    First of all they wont use Vikhr for the same reason the MiG-29 does not use Al-31s.

    The Mil design bureau has a relationship with the company that makes Ataka. That same company made Shturm in the 1980s and now they make the improved Ataka model that has pretty much been in mass production for decades and is very cheap and simple.

    It has a cheap command guidance channel and has enough range and penetration performance to be lethal enough.

    Now the Mi-28NM has better sensors and the enemy has better weapons so adding 2km to its range would be very very simple... just extend the body by 10-20cm and put in some more fuel... the electronics can probably be compressed quite a bit allowing space for a bigger warhead too if needed. It is command guided so its 450m/s flight speed is not amazing but much better than any wire dragger.

    As a cheap missile it is rather better than any available alternative and the range extension further adds to its usefulness without adding stupid costs like making it fire and forget.

    For harder targets there is the Kristantema which has more expensive beam riding guidance and also radar command guidance... more expensive but not actually expensive... still rather cheaper than a Javelin for example.

    The Vikhr is an impressive missile with a 1.2m armour penetration performance and a 610m/s speed and an 8km flight range but the Krisantema can equal it in all areas except for speed and is much smaller allowing it to be carried in packs of 8 per pylon instead of the Vikhrs limit on helos of 6 per pylon.

    Where the target is not armoured, an upgraded Ataka would be much cheaper and could be carried in much larger numbers.



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    Re: Russian Helicopter ATGMs

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Sat Oct 22, 2016 11:33 am

    [quote="GarryB"]
    The cost of upgrade will always bee greater than the cost of building new systems that can be upgraded later. You're just delaying the inevitable. When looking at the T72B3 upgrade and then looking at the T90, one can understand that the Upgrade can't cut it as well as the real deal.

    Not true.

    They clearly said they were going to upgrade both the ATAKA and the Krisantema.

    First of all they wont use Vikhr for the same reason the MiG-29 does not use Al-31s.

    The Mil design bureau has a relationship with the company that makes Ataka. That same company made Shturm in the 1980s and now they make the improved Ataka model that has pretty much been in mass production for decades and is very cheap and simple.


    The Vikhr is not Expensive either. But it is cheaper when the performance factor is taken to account.


    It has a cheap command guidance channel and has enough range and penetration performance to be lethal enough.

    Both systems are neck and neck price wise when the effectiveness is taken to account. You need

    Now the Mi-28NM has better sensors and the enemy has better weapons so adding 2km to its range would be very very simple... just extend the body by 10-20cm and put in some more fuel... the electronics can probably be compressed quite a bit allowing space for a bigger warhead too if needed. It is command guided so its 450m/s flight speed is not amazing but much better than any wire dragger.
    Extending the body will mean newly produced containers, newly produced missiles with as many basic parts as possible. A plaster on a wooden leg. We're into Izhmash/Zid shenanigans again.

    As a cheap missile it is rather better than any available alternative and the range extension further adds to its usefulness without adding stupid costs like making it fire and forget.
    The Vikhr is not Hellfire material. The price is neck and neck.

    For harder targets there is the Kristantema which has more expensive beam riding guidance and also radar command guidance... more expensive but not actually expensive... still rather cheaper than a Javelin for example.

    9M123 falls short of a couple of miles when compared to Vikhr with the only upside being warhead that has been reviewed recently/

    The Vikhr is an impressive missile with a 1.2m armour penetration performance and a 610m/s speed and an 8km flight range but the Krisantema can equal it in all areas except for speed and is much smaller allowing it to be carried in packs of 8 per pylon instead of the Vikhrs limit on helos of 6 per pylon.

    Where the target is not armoured, an upgraded Ataka would be much cheaper and could be carried in much larger numbers.


    Which isn't the real issue here as the ATGM's are being upgraded because they are needed against hardened targets. Range and sensors mean that the missiles need to be fired from longer ranges and more precisely.

    It looks to me like the perfect match. For Vikhr...
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Helicopter ATGMs

    Post  GarryB on Sun Oct 23, 2016 10:34 am

    The Vikhr is not Expensive either. But it is cheaper when the performance factor is taken to account.

    No it isn't. But also no it isn't.

    Vikhr is not expensive for what it is but you could probably get 3-4 Atakas for the price of one Vikhr.

    When the target is a MBT then a Vikhr makes the most sense, but of all the armoured targets on the battlefield the MBT is a minority as there are an enormous number of other types of targets including bunkers, rooms in buildings, and other vehicles.

    The fact is that the Vikhr was developed with the SHkval EO system in mind... a system carried by the Ka-50 and Ka-52 series helos and Su-25T/TM series CAS aircraft.

    The Mi-28 range are not fitted with that EO system.

    The thimble nose of the Mi-28 is designed for the Shturm/Ataka/Krisantema range of ATGMs and is a cheap simple command guidance setup that is proven and there are plenty of such missiles in stocks already... even naval Ka-52s have been seen with such missiles.

    Both systems are neck and neck price wise when the effectiveness is taken to account. You need

    But one system is in mass production and has been for quite some time.

    The option for laser beam riding and radar guidance means Krisantema is actually superior in some conditions, while the ATAKA is cheaper and still "weather resistant" in terms of guidance.

    Extending the body will mean newly produced containers, newly produced missiles with as many basic parts as possible. A plaster on a wooden leg. We're into Izhmash/Zid shenanigans again.

    Indeed it would but that would mean old missiles will remain compatible with the launch systems already in service.

    Changing to Vikhr for the Havoc would mean changing the guidance systems and new rail mounts.

    For targets spotted less than 6km away an old model missile will be fine.

    The Vikhr is not Hellfire material. The price is neck and neck.

    Vikhr is relatively cheap and is excellent value for money considering its performance, but for many targets it is rather more missile than is needed.

    Besides you are ignoring the facts... Mil works with the companies that make the Shturm/ataka/krisantema range of missiles... why would they change "teams"?

    They already have Shturm and Ataka in stocks... why change to a totally different weapon for only a fairly modest improvement in speed?

    The Vikhr has an 8km range and 610m/s flight speed and a 1,200mm armour penetration performance with laser beam riding guidance. Krisantema is smaller and lighter and is carried in packs of 8 instead of packs of 6 like the Vikhr and will have an 8km range and a 410m/s flight speed and a 1,200mm armour penetration performance but will have dual laser beam riding and radar command guidance options.

    9M123 falls short of a couple of miles when compared to Vikhr with the only upside being warhead that has been reviewed recently/

    If they are extending the range of Ataka to 8km one would expect they would do the same for Krisantema...


    Which isn't the real issue here as the ATGM's are being upgraded because they are needed against hardened targets. Range and sensors mean that the missiles need to be fired from longer ranges and more precisely.

    It looks to me like the perfect match. For Vikhr...

    Perfect match for current Vikhr or upgraded Ataka and upgraded krisantema.

    As the Mi-28NM is not compatible with Vlkhr it makes rather more sense to upgrade the missile rather than upgrade the aircraft.

    The view we have seen of the new Mi-28NM lacked the thimble nose antenna for sending guidance commands to the Shturm/Ataka missiles... perhaps they will also change them to laser beam riding guidance too?

    Or perhaps the main radar can send the same guidance commands and so with the mast mounted radar the antenna under the thimble nose becomes redundant...


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    medo

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    Re: Russian Helicopter ATGMs

    Post  medo on Sun Oct 23, 2016 11:17 am

    New Vikhr missiles produced for Ka-52 have 10 km range and it seems Ka-52 will be the only user of them. Considering, that Ka-52 is also meant to use longer range Hermes missiles, than there is no doubt that Ka-52 have in its big nose more capable radar and EO complex than Mi-28N.

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    Re: Russian Helicopter ATGMs

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