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    Russian Helicopter ATGMs

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    Cyrus the great
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    Re: Russian Helicopter ATGMs

    Post  Cyrus the great on Sun Jun 21, 2015 4:32 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    I know that the Russians have an arguably superior missile [Hermes] with far greater speeds and a whopping 100 km max range, but it weighs 110 kg.

    AFAIK only the ground launched model of Hermes will reach 100km range with a ballistic flight path.

    Couldn't the Russians either create a lighter variant of the Hermes [around 50 kg] or extend the range of the khrizantema to 15-20 km for its attack helicopters?

    the standard model Hermes for helicopter launch will have a range of about 20km, and I suspect later model helicopter launched variations of Khrisantema and Vikhr will likely persist as the cheaper lighter options.


    The 20 km range is extraordinary but the Hermes-A still weighs 110 kg. A 20 km version of the Khrizantema would be ideal for attack helicopters. I know that it would probably be needlessly expensive to develop such a variant, but hey, one can dream.

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    Re: Russian Helicopter ATGMs

    Post  Cyrus the great on Sun Jun 21, 2015 4:55 pm

    Werewolf wrote:
    Cyrus the great wrote:
    God, I love this forum... I am learning so much. I'm surprised that the Hellfire isn't nearly as capable as I was led to believe. I know that the Russians have an arguably superior missile [Hermes] with far greater speeds and a whopping 100 km max range, but it weighs 110 kg. Couldn't the Russians either create a lighter variant of the Hermes [around 50 kg] or extend the range of the khrizantema to 15-20 km for its attack helicopters?

    The comparision between Hellfire and Hermes isn't fair, they were designed in completley different times and are different kind of technology generation. If you want to compare it to a counterpart so you have to compare it with one off the US designs as next gen. heliborne ATGM. The US had several proposals, some died off, were closed some emerged into existing projects like raytheons project PAASM (Precision Attack Air-to Surface Missile) AFAIK which was canceled years ago, then there was JCM (Join Common Missile) that was a replacement for Mavericks with up to 28km range (fixed wing) that was also tested in 2005 for Apaches, the budget for that project was terminated and relocated to the JAGM project. That would be the current project be JGAM (Joint Air-to Ground Missile) which is to great deal based on Hellfire and has a range of around 15-18km,(which mainly comes as a deal between new rocket engine and non dogmatic "top attack" trajectory which burned the fuel before it even reached 2km mark) however not much information on it but is suppossed to be the introduced into active service in 2019 roughly the same timeline of Hermes, but that will take some years untill those missiles will be in sufficient numbers and take even longer to be called "main armament" far post 2025.

    http://www.lockheedmartin.com/us/products/JAGM.html


    I guess I was terribly unfair comparing recently developed missiles to those that have been in service for decades. If a top-attack trajectory is so difficult to deploy beyond reasonable range, why doesn't the US just scrap that particular requirement and get on with it? That's probably a stupid question seeing as how the top-attack trajectory is in vogue now. A 20 km variant of the Khrizantema for rotary aircraft would be a game changer. Thanks for your extensive reply.

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    Re: Russian Helicopter ATGMs

    Post  Werewolf on Sun Jun 21, 2015 5:09 pm

    Cyrus the great wrote:
    I guess I was terribly unfair comparing recently developed missiles to those that have been in service for decades. If a top-attack trajectory is so difficult to deploy beyond reasonable range, why doesn't the US just scrap that particular requirement and get on with it? That's probably a stupid question seeing as how the top-attack trajectory is in vogue now. A 20 km variant of the Khrizantema for rotary aircraft would be a game changer. Thanks for your extensive reply.

    Well the top-attack requirement isn't the issue here, the issue with the Hellfire is does not have a direct-launch profile mode. It has three missile launch profiles, low trajectory, the missile still tries to gain altitude considered Top attack even tho the missile does not hit tanks roof armor, not even close. The other profiles are mid and high, they both gain again altitude the difference with mid and low trajectory is the missile launch profile and trajectory of gaining altitude and going down on target is still rather flat, but the high trajectory was initially designed to be used behind cover so the missile will not hit trees, obstacles or nearby buildings which is the actual top attack, all other profiles do not even hit the weak roof armor, it gives them still some advantage due better angle to armor but that is essentially the case for any heliborne launched missile/rocket.

    They did not see it as a big problem because it is not a big problem, most engagements of Apaches vs tanks are done between 30-700m at such altitudes the operators can't even see nor designate targets further away than 3-4km and that is the case for all Helicopters, they all have a similiar requirement to deploy to battlefield with high valued targets like MBT's with NoE (Nap over Earth) flights, because it is crucial for helicopters to stay undetected with very good intel of enemy forces for succesful and effective use of helicopters. Russians, Chinese, US and any other country try to reduce the chances of being spotted or targeted by MANPADS by flying low to their targets and they usually remain lower than 1km altitude for many reasons, not being spotted, it is far more effecient with combat load to fly at lower altitudes due better and denser air which gives better flight performance and fuel effecient flight. They usually tend to gain altitude 2-3km away from tanks and then launch their ATGM's, but that is not always the case and will not be always the case due the increasing capability of defense suites and when non isolated targets appear, where a full strike against a variety of targets is necessary, the US has adopted the same thing the Soviets/Russians did and still do with Hinds, which provides the highest and most effecient way of dealing with quite often occuring targets of different value in formation or fortification.

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    Re: Russian Helicopter ATGMs

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jun 23, 2015 1:00 am

    The main feature of the Hermes is speed.

    Getting to the target area quickly is critical especially against a moving target that, if it is a tank, will be accelerating from cover to cover looking for targets.

    Having a range of 20km is great, but smoke and dust and the general difficulty of detecting and properly identifying targets at that range mean most actual shots will be taken at rather shorter range.

    Krisantema will not likely ever get a range of 20km... 8-10km is rather more sensible, as there are plenty of battlefield targets that don't require a Hermes sized weapon to kill them... a smaller, lighter, shorter range weapon that is also cheaper makes a lot of sense... and in this situation I would be in favour of the Ka-52 keeping its Vikhr missiles as well, though Hermes will be the primary long range weapon for helos and light aircraft...


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    Re: Russian Helicopter ATGMs

    Post  Cyrus the great on Wed Jun 24, 2015 1:16 pm

    Werewolf wrote:
    Cyrus the great wrote:
    I guess I was terribly unfair comparing recently developed missiles to those that have been in service for decades. If a top-attack trajectory is so difficult to deploy beyond reasonable range, why doesn't the US just scrap that particular requirement and get on with it? That's probably a stupid question seeing as how the top-attack trajectory is in vogue now. A 20 km variant of the Khrizantema for rotary aircraft would be a game changer. Thanks for your extensive reply.

    Well the top-attack requirement isn't the issue here, the issue with the Hellfire is does not have a direct-launch profile mode. It has three missile launch profiles, low trajectory, the missile still tries to gain altitude considered Top attack even tho the missile does not hit tanks roof armor, not even close. The other profiles are mid and high, they both gain again altitude the difference with mid and low trajectory is the missile launch profile and trajectory of gaining altitude and going down on target is still rather flat, but the high trajectory was initially designed to be used behind cover so the missile will not hit trees, obstacles or nearby buildings which is the actual top attack, all other profiles do not even hit the weak roof armor, it gives them still some advantage due better angle to armor but that is essentially the case for any heliborne launched missile/rocket.

    They did not see it as a big problem because it is not a big problem, most engagements of Apaches vs tanks are done between 30-700m at such altitudes the operators can't even see nor designate targets further away than 3-4km and that is the case for all Helicopters, they all have a similiar requirement to deploy to battlefield with high valued targets like MBT's with NoE (Nap over Earth) flights, because it is crucial for helicopters to stay undetected with very good intel of enemy forces for succesful and effective use of helicopters. Russians, Chinese, US and any other country try to reduce the chances of being spotted or targeted by MANPADS by flying low to their targets and they usually remain lower than 1km altitude for many reasons, not being spotted, it is far more effecient with combat load to fly at lower altitudes due better and denser air which gives better flight performance and fuel effecient flight. They usually tend to gain altitude 2-3km away from tanks and then launch their ATGM's, but that is not always the case and will not be always the case due the increasing capability of defense suites and when non isolated targets appear, where a full strike against a variety of targets is necessary, the US has adopted the same thing the Soviets/Russians did and still do with Hinds, which provides the highest and most effecient way of dealing with quite often occuring targets of different value in formation or fortification.

    I really cannot add much to this, other than to say thank you. When you lay it out like that [with facts] it makes it untenable for me to continue arguing for a 20 km missile in a theatre replete with sophisticated air defence systems like the Russian Pantsir. I will have to read up on deployment doctrines and the constraints that the environment impose on them instead of being fixated on weapon (s) performance stats.

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    Re: Russian Helicopter ATGMs

    Post  Cyrus the great on Wed Jun 24, 2015 1:47 pm

    GarryB wrote:The main feature of the Hermes is speed.

    Getting to the target area quickly is critical especially against a moving target that, if it is a tank, will be accelerating from cover to cover looking for targets.

    Having a range of 20km is great, but smoke and dust and the general difficulty of detecting and properly identifying targets at that range mean most actual shots will be taken at rather shorter range.

    Krisantema will not likely ever get a range of 20km... 8-10km is rather more sensible, as there are plenty of battlefield targets that don't require a Hermes sized weapon to kill them... a smaller, lighter, shorter range weapon that is also cheaper makes a lot of sense... and in this situation I would be in favour of the Ka-52 keeping its Vikhr missiles as well, though Hermes will be the primary long range weapon for helos and light aircraft...


    Yeah, I couldn't believe my eyes when I first saw the speed of the Hermes missile. You're right, a 20 km missile would be difficult to deploy, and even then, it could only be conceivably deployable against third world insurgents with last generation MANPADS. I like the fact that you and Werewolf have been really patient with me. Thanks, Garry

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    Re: Russian Helicopter ATGMs

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jun 25, 2015 11:17 am

    It is important to keep in mind the platforms involved and their job.

    In the early 1980s you have the Hind operating with Su-25s in attack or with Mi-8 Hips dropping in troops.

    In the former job 5km range guided missiles is plenty for daylight only attacks on point hard targets and rockets and light cannon/HMG for area targets.

    Fitting the Hind with a 20km range guided missile would be a total waste of time.

    Today however, with their long range sensors, high speed and connection to a battle network that will include all sorts of data sourced from UAVs and recon units and satellites and finding targets deep behind enemy lines becomes much more likely.

    Of course having a range of 20km does not mean using it from 20km with every shot... most of the time it will be from less than half that, but a well protected target can be weakened from a distance so even against a very strong enemy these weapons will be useful in reducing a strong defence to the point where other assets can get closer and finish it off.

    Hermes will be very useful for Su-25 and its replacement aircraft too due to the standoff range it will confer on the aircraft making attacks much safer without compromising accuracy.


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    Russian ATGM missiles

    Post  Cyrus the great on Fri Jun 26, 2015 11:27 pm

    GarryB wrote:It is important to keep in mind the platforms involved and their job.

    In the early 1980s you have the Hind operating with Su-25s in attack or with Mi-8 Hips dropping in troops.

    In the former job 5km range guided missiles is plenty for daylight only attacks on point hard targets and rockets and light cannon/HMG for area targets.

    Fitting the Hind with a 20km range guided missile would be a total waste of time.

    Today however, with their long range sensors, high speed and connection to a battle network that will include all sorts of data sourced from UAVs and recon units and satellites and finding targets deep behind enemy lines becomes much more likely.

    Of course having a range of 20km does not mean using it from 20km with every shot... most of the time it will be from less than half that, but a well protected target can be weakened from a distance so even against a very strong enemy these weapons will be useful in reducing a strong defence to the point where other assets can get closer and finish it off.

    Hermes will be very useful for Su-25 and its replacement aircraft too due to the standoff range it will confer on the aircraft making attacks much safer without compromising accuracy.

    The Ka-52 would be a perfect candidate for a 20 km missile if or when the Russians feel that they need such a capability. I like the fact that the Russians are keeping close air support aircraft like the Su-25 instead of deluding themselves with the notion that an aircraft like the F-35 can take its place in CAS operations.

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    Re: Russian Helicopter ATGMs

    Post  George1 on Sun Jun 28, 2015 10:02 am

    I have read that 9M120 Ataka missile is often confused with 9K121 Vikhr, although are 2 different systems.

    Mil Moscow Helicopter Plant favours the former, while Sukhoi and Kamov favour the latter.



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    Re: Russian Helicopter ATGMs

    Post  Kyo on Fri Oct 23, 2015 2:10 pm

    Kalashnikov Delivered First Batch of Vikhr 1 Missiles to Russian Army



    Is this old, or a newcomer?

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    Re: Russian Helicopter ATGMs

    Post  Militarov on Fri Oct 23, 2015 2:23 pm

    Kyo wrote:Kalashnikov Delivered First Batch of Vikhr 1 Missiles to Russian Army



    Is this old, or a newcomer?

    Interesting article coz from what i know Vikhr-1 was adopted into service in early 90s and it was ordered before too but not in significant amounts, i dont think they are first, its probably refering to "first batch of 6000 ordered".

    "August 6, 2013: Russia has ordered over 6,000 Vikhr (9K121/AT-16) laser guided missiles. The $400 million order was in part to prevent the manufacturer from going bankrupt. The 45 kg (99 pound) Vikhr is similar to the American Hellfire, but did not show up until 1990. Sales have been slow since then, in part because another Russian manufacturer had a similar missile (Ataka V). While Vikhr is similar in size and function to Hellfire, it uses a different (laser beam riding) laser guidance system. Vikhr has a max range of 10 kilometers and a 10 kg (22 pound) warhead. It is primarily used on Ka-50/52 helicopters and Su-25 ground attack aircraft. The older (and more numerous) Mi-24 helicopter uses the Ataka V."

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    Vikhr (9K121/AT-16)

    Post  sepheronx on Fri Oct 23, 2015 7:19 pm

    There was an issue with the quality of the Vikhr's in the past. So they had to make changes. Apparently, according to TR1 over at the keypub forums that Kalashnikov plant figured out the issues and updated production of them. So there should be an updated and more quality variant of the Vikhr missile.

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