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    Russian Helicopter ATGMs

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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Helicopter ATGMs

    Post  GarryB on Mon Oct 24, 2016 6:29 am

    New Vikhr missiles produced for Ka-52 have 10 km range and it seems Ka-52 will be the only user of them. Considering, that Ka-52 is also meant to use longer range Hermes missiles, than there is no doubt that Ka-52 have in its big nose more capable radar and EO complex than Mi-28N.

    AFAIK the Hermes is intended for both the Havoc and Hokum.

    I have no doubt the Ka-52 has better avionics than the Mi-28N, but whether it is better than the Mi-28M is another question.

    Having missiles with a range of 10km does not mean much if you cannot reliably detect and identify targets to that range.

    The article above stated the upgraded Ataka will get a range of 8km, but it does not mention the performance of the Krisantema.
    Note the krisantema has an enlarged nose with a 150mm warhead... it would not take much to expand the body with a larger more powerful rocket motor to increase flight speed and range too.

    Of course increasing range by 2km greatly increases the volume of ground area covered by a circle... increase the radius of a circle by 1/3rd and you triple the volume of the circle... a much larger area to hide within.

    The Hokum will be tasked with finding targets while the Havoc will be tasked with attacking targets... the Hokum being the recon sniper, while the Havoc being the infantry sniper and machine gunner.


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    flamming_python

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    Re: Russian Helicopter ATGMs

    Post  flamming_python on Mon Oct 24, 2016 3:32 pm

    The improved Atakas will also more than likely be compatible with Mi-35Ms and with many other legacy systems; lot of export potential there.

    The Ataka is the AK-74 of short-range guided missiles.
    Vikhr is the AEK-571
    Khrizantema is the SVD

    All of them have their uses. Ataka is cheap, simple and capable.
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    Re: Russian Helicopter ATGMs

    Post  KiloGolf on Mon Oct 24, 2016 5:47 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:Hey see we have these Vihr missiles, they're supersonic, polyvalent and have extended range!

    Nope we're going to modernize our rust pipes, because we can.

    Yeap, I'm pretty sure it's politics-based decision. Spread the funding and keep everyone happy.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Helicopter ATGMs

    Post  GarryB on Tue Oct 25, 2016 9:53 am

    Yeap, I'm pretty sure it's politics-based decision. Spread the funding and keep everyone happy.

    I would not really call it politics.

    Mil helos have Shturm and Ataka and now Kristantema missiles as standard... they likely have tens of thousands in stock and produce them in huge numbers and use them in huge numbers...

    AFAIK there have been orders for Vikhr but it has never been produced in the numbers we are talking about here.

    These are all high speed missiles as none of them drag wires, and can pretty much do the job.

    Even the ancient Shturm with its 560mm penetration is better than Konkurs that seems to be able to penetrate Abrams tanks from all but the frontal angles... Ataka can penetrate 800mm and Krisantema 1.2m, so it is not like they are useless... they all vastly out perform most man portable models in speed and range and penetration.

    They also come in HE Frag/air to air versions which have also been produced in numbers for use against point targets at extended ranges that are not armoured.

    For trucks in a convoy a HE armed Shturm missile would be excellent, though obviously laser guided 80mm rockets in a UB rocket pod would be better.

    The makers of Vikhr on the other hand tend to work with Kamov and Sukhoi, so the Shkval EO system is found on Ka-50s and Su-25T and TM models.

    There is talk of laser systems being developed for Russian helos that enable laser beam riding and laser homing missiles to be used as standard... which would be interesting.

    There is a video on Youtube with the Ka-52... it was posted in the military video thread recently...:




    If you can speak Russian they mention the Ataka missiles and the Vikhr missiles at about 17 minutes and thirty seconds and about 18 minutes respectively.

    Anyone want to shed some light?


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    KoTeMoRe

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    Re: Russian Helicopter ATGMs

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Tue Oct 25, 2016 10:59 am

    Garry with all due respect, it is a political decision, just like picking up the Vikhr would have been one, even supported by stats.
    The MIC is a balance-based environement, it needs balanced decisions. So indeed people have been giving away money and contracts.

    In this case though, the idea is IMO to replug the missiles because for some reasons there are a boatload in storage, rather than make new ones. This is the only reason why they're going for it. From a stat and performance POV the missiles even upgraded aren't going to come nearby the Vikhr (except for the 9M123M's warhead). Which again is clearly a budget decision out of necessity. Because IMO better to work on the 9M123 than the 9M120. We're back into a AK/AEK position, one is better, even marginally, and ready, but we have boatloads of the other in stock, because we made that decision in the past, so we're stuck with certain weapons, that while not useless, are underperforming when compared with the rest of the options.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Helicopter ATGMs

    Post  GarryB on Wed Oct 26, 2016 9:50 am

    Garry with all due respect, it is a political decision, just like picking up the Vikhr would have been one, even supported by stats.
    The MIC is a balance-based environement, it needs balanced decisions. So indeed people have been giving away money and contracts.

    If anything the political decision was in regard to Vikhr.

    Production was restarted to help out Kalashnikov Concern... the Kamovs had already been seen with the laser riding version of Ataka, so there was actually no need for Vikhr.

    Hermes is on the way, why continue producing the more expensive Vikhr for its modest increase in performance...

    Of course I am happy they are producing all of them... each is a useful enough system and none of them are stupid expensive and each has a niche where it is the best tool for the job.


    In this case though, the idea is IMO to replug the missiles because for some reasons there are a boatload in storage, rather than make new ones. This is the only reason why they're going for it. From a stat and performance POV the missiles even upgraded aren't going to come nearby the Vikhr (except for the 9M123M's warhead). Which again is clearly a budget decision out of necessity. Because IMO better to work on the 9M123 than the 9M120. We're back into a AK/AEK position, one is better, even marginally, and ready, but we have boatloads of the other in stock, because we made that decision in the past, so we're stuck with certain weapons, that while not useless, are underperforming when compared with the rest of the options.

    You could argue that, but equally you could say the Shturm/Ataka/Kristantema are the standard in service weapon of Mil helicopters and they are in service and in mass production. They have reintroduced production of the Vikhrs for the Kamovs in service, but what they are saying is not that they are dropping anything... they are just saying they are improving the Atakas, and keeping the other two missiles in production.

    An Ataka-M with extended range makes rather more sense than converting Mil helos to Vikhr.


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    KoTeMoRe

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    Re: Russian Helicopter ATGMs

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Wed Oct 26, 2016 10:29 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Garry with all due respect, it is a political decision, just like picking up the Vikhr would have been one, even supported by stats.
    The MIC is a balance-based environement, it needs balanced decisions. So indeed people have been giving away money and contracts.

    If anything the political decision was in regard to Vikhr.

    Production was restarted to help out Kalashnikov Concern... the Kamovs had already been seen with the laser riding version of Ataka, so there was actually no need for Vikhr.

    Hermes is on the way, why continue producing the more expensive Vikhr for its modest increase in performance...

    Of course I am happy they are producing all of them... each is a useful enough system and none of them are stupid expensive and each has a niche where it is the best tool for the job.


    In this case though, the idea is IMO to replug the missiles because for some reasons there are a boatload in storage, rather than make new ones. This is the only reason why they're going for it. From a stat and performance POV the missiles even upgraded aren't going to come nearby the Vikhr (except for the 9M123M's warhead). Which again is clearly a budget decision out of necessity. Because IMO better to work on the 9M123 than the 9M120. We're back into a AK/AEK position, one is better, even marginally, and ready, but we have boatloads of the other in stock, because we made that decision in the past, so we're stuck with certain weapons, that while not useless, are underperforming when compared with the rest of the options.

    You could argue that, but equally you could say the Shturm/Ataka/Kristantema are the standard in service weapon of Mil helicopters and they are in service and in mass production. They have reintroduced production of the Vikhrs for the Kamovs in service, but what they are saying is not that they are dropping anything... they are just saying they are improving the Atakas, and keeping the other two missiles in production.

    An Ataka-M with extended range makes rather more sense than converting Mil helos to Vikhr.


    It's exactly what I said. The choice was made for a "simpler" variant in the past, so they're stuck with it. Now they find they need more capability. Easy.

    And then you read this...https://twitter.com/RSS_40/status/791197531866820608


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    Re: Russian Helicopter ATGMs

    Post  kopyo-21 on Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:17 pm

    GarryB wrote:An Ataka-M with extended range makes rather more sense than converting Mil helos to Vikhr.
    On Mi-28NM they removed the Mi-28N's black chin nose that is radio command used to guide Ataka missile. Does the N-025 mast mounted radar has a function to guide Ataka missile or they relocated the radio guidance to some where else on Mi-28NM?


    Last edited by kopyo-21 on Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:10 am; edited 1 time in total
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    flamming_python

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    Re: Russian Helicopter ATGMs

    Post  flamming_python on Sun Oct 30, 2016 3:13 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Yeap, I'm pretty sure it's politics-based decision. Spread the funding and keep everyone happy.

    I would not really call it politics.

    Mil helos have Shturm and Ataka and now Kristantema missiles as standard... they likely have tens of thousands in stock and produce them in huge numbers and use them in huge numbers...

    AFAIK there have been orders for Vikhr but it has never been produced in the numbers we are talking about here.

    These are all high speed missiles as none of them drag wires, and can pretty much do the job.

    Even the ancient Shturm with its 560mm penetration is better than Konkurs that seems to be able to penetrate Abrams tanks from all but the frontal angles... Ataka can penetrate 800mm and Krisantema 1.2m, so it is not like they are useless... they all vastly out perform most man portable models in speed and range and penetration.

    They also come in HE Frag/air to air versions which have also been produced in numbers for use against point targets at extended ranges that are not armoured.

    For trucks in a convoy a HE armed Shturm missile would be excellent, though obviously laser guided 80mm rockets in a UB rocket pod would be better.

    The makers of Vikhr on the other hand tend to work with Kamov and Sukhoi, so the Shkval EO system is found on Ka-50s and Su-25T and TM models.

    There is talk of laser systems being developed for Russian helos that enable laser beam riding and laser homing missiles to be used as standard... which would be interesting.

    There is a video on Youtube with the Ka-52... it was posted in the military video thread recently...:




    If you can speak Russian they mention the Ataka missiles and the Vikhr missiles at about 17 minutes and thirty seconds and about 18 minutes respectively.

    Anyone want to shed some light?

    All they said about the Ataka is that it's a short-range guided missile that's used against ground targets.

    They went into quite a lot more detail about the Vikhr, pointing out that it's the most powerful weapon on the Ka-52, that it's specifically an AT guided missile that's used at ranges of +6km; the vid that starts at 19:23 is implied to be a vid of its use in Syria.

    Afterwards they focused on the unguided S-5 missiles; and pointed out that experience in Afghanistan and Chechnya has shown the need for cheap rockets specifically; which is the main advantage of those unguided rockets.

    So it seems that Vikhr is the Sniper weapon, the S-5 is the AK and the Ataka is somewhere in between.

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    Re: Russian Helicopter ATGMs

    Post  kopyo-21 on Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:44 am

    I can not speak Russian so don't understand the video clip. As I know, Russia have stopped arming S-5 rockets for helicopter such as Mi-24 since long time ago due to its short range that makes them have to get closely to targets and be venerable by enemy air defense. Rather than that they use S-8 rockets that can fire from 4 km with LRF.
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    Russian Helicopter ATGMs

    Post  GarryB on Mon Oct 31, 2016 6:04 am

    S-5 is pretty much obsolete now... I suspect they meant S-8 and S-13...

    Would assume the Mi-28NM no longer needs the thimble black guidance antenna for Shturm/Ataka... the BMPT based on the T-72 does not carry one for the four externally mounted Atakas it carries either.
    suggests they are laser beam riding on the terminator, but I would suspect the Mi-28NM could use its mast mounted radar to direct the missile with a radar beam signal perhaps...

    There have been articles posted on helicopter threads about laser beam hardware incorporated into EO systems that allows much more accurate guidance of laser homing weapons and allows the use of laser guidance kits for existing weapons.

    Knowing the Russians I suspect that their Ugroza kit wont just fit to the nose of existing unguided rockets but will likely be a custom made rocket that replaces the original rocket in a standard rocket pod. the hardware upgrade of the EO system would allow more accurate use of unguided rockets with ballistic information and ranging information generating real time calculated aim points for the crew, while for actual laser guided weapons offers precision of use.


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    Now that the Mi-28NM has the full standard radar

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jan 06, 2017 4:48 am

    Now that the Mi-28NM has the full standard radar with the capability to detect and track targets automatically at long range, then it makes sense to start deploying longer range missiles and heavier weapons.

    It seems the radio command guided missiles like Ataka and radar guided Krisantema can be guided by the mast mounted antenna which has 360 degree scanning performance.

    Now that it will be able to detect ground and air targets from extended ranges then having extended range missiles becomes practical too...

    Of course for the vast majority of targets in Syria a Vikhr or Ataka or Shturm or Krisantema would already be over kill and beyond the range of return fire...

    I would expect the radar and optics systems to be linked to laser beam riding weapons can be guided as well with the potential to hand targets detected with the radar to the EO system for inspection and engagement.

    I am sure they will be testing Hermes on the Ka-52K as well as other platforms.

    The Su-34 might even be able to carry one pylons worth... a very high speed medium altitude launch would be pretty devastating to most small targets and would arrive without warning.


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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: Russian Helicopter ATGMs

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Fri Jan 06, 2017 7:03 am

    GarryB wrote:

    I am sure they will be testing Hermes on the Ka-52K as well as other platforms.

    What do you mean "will be". This mounting was shown back in 2009. If hermes-A is still not ready then there is a severe problem with the management that needs a stalin-esque purge. The time for "will" is long gone, now there is "ASAP".
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    Re: Russian Helicopter ATGMs

    Post  Militarov on Fri Jan 06, 2017 2:42 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:
    GarryB wrote:

    I am sure they will be testing Hermes on the Ka-52K as well as other platforms.

    What do you mean "will be". This mounting was shown back in 2009. If hermes-A is still not ready then there is a severe problem with the management that needs a stalin-esque purge. The time for "will" is long gone, now there is "ASAP".

    Placing empty containers on hardpoint does not equal missile development and integration on combat platform you know. Hermes is still not ready judging by recent reports and seems it wont enter service for a while, hopefully development will be finished though 2017 and IOC will start in 2018. Again, hopefully. Some firing tests were held in 2015. and 2016. that is what we know.

    Here you can gasp how far back whole project we call Hermes actually goes: http://rbase.new-factoria.ru/missile/wobb/hermes/hermes.shtml
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    Re: Russian Helicopter ATGMs

    Post  Militarov on Fri Jan 06, 2017 2:44 pm

    GarryB wrote:Now that the Mi-28NM has the full standard radar with the capability to detect and track targets automatically at long range, then it makes sense to start deploying longer range missiles and heavier weapons.

    It seems the radio command guided missiles like Ataka and radar guided Krisantema can be guided by the mast mounted antenna which has 360 degree scanning performance.

    Now that it will be able to detect ground and air targets from extended ranges then having extended range missiles becomes practical too...

    Of course for the vast majority of targets in Syria a Vikhr or Ataka or Shturm or Krisantema would already be over kill and beyond the range of return fire...

    I would expect the radar and optics systems to be linked to laser beam riding weapons can be guided as well with the potential to hand targets detected with the radar to the EO system for inspection and engagement.

    I am sure they will be testing Hermes on the Ka-52K as well as other platforms.

    The Su-34 might even be able to carry one pylons worth... a very high speed medium altitude launch would be pretty devastating to most small targets and would arrive without warning.

    If there is a will, and i hope there is, Hermes could be used on Su-34/Su-30 same way Brimstone is used on Typhoons.
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    Re: Russian Helicopter ATGMs

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Fri Jan 06, 2017 8:20 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:
    GarryB wrote:

    I am sure they will be testing Hermes on the Ka-52K as well as other platforms.

    What do you mean "will be". This mounting was shown back in 2009. If hermes-A is still not ready then there is a severe problem with the management that needs a stalin-esque purge. The time for "will" is long gone, now there is "ASAP".

    Placing empty containers on hardpoint does not equal missile development and integration on combat platform you know. Hermes is still not ready judging by recent reports and seems it wont enter service for a while, hopefully development will be finished though 2017 and IOC will start in 2018. Again, hopefully. Some firing tests were held in 2015. and 2016. that is what we know.

    Here you can gasp how far back whole project we call Hermes actually goes: http://rbase.new-factoria.ru/missile/wobb/hermes/hermes.shtml
    So you're saying the situation is even more effed up since the development is going for 13 FUCKING YEARS already? Tanks are developed and put into service faster.
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    Re: Russian Helicopter ATGMs

    Post  Militarov on Fri Jan 06, 2017 9:00 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:
    GarryB wrote:

    I am sure they will be testing Hermes on the Ka-52K as well as other platforms.

    What do you mean "will be". This mounting was shown back in 2009. If hermes-A is still not ready then there is a severe problem with the management that needs a stalin-esque purge. The time for "will" is long gone, now there is "ASAP".

    Placing empty containers on hardpoint does not equal missile development and integration on combat platform you know. Hermes is still not ready judging by recent reports and seems it wont enter service for a while, hopefully development will be finished though 2017 and IOC will start in 2018. Again, hopefully. Some firing tests were held in 2015. and 2016. that is what we know.

    Here you can gasp how far back whole project we call Hermes actually goes: http://rbase.new-factoria.ru/missile/wobb/hermes/hermes.shtml
    So you're saying the situation is even more effed up since the development is going for 13 FUCKING YEARS already? Tanks are developed and put into service faster.

    Actually Hermes-A was first time mentioned in 1995. in magazine "Авиация - Kосмонавтикa".
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    Re: Russian Helicopter ATGMs

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Fri Jan 06, 2017 9:18 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:
    GarryB wrote:

    I am sure they will be testing Hermes on the Ka-52K as well as other platforms.

    What do you mean "will be". This mounting was shown back in 2009. If hermes-A is still not ready then there is a severe problem with the management that needs a stalin-esque purge. The time for "will" is long gone, now there is "ASAP".

    Placing empty containers on hardpoint does not equal missile development and integration on combat platform you know. Hermes is still not ready judging by recent reports and seems it wont enter service for a while, hopefully development will be finished though 2017 and IOC will start in 2018. Again, hopefully. Some firing tests were held in 2015. and 2016. that is what we know.

    Here you can gasp how far back whole project we call Hermes actually goes: http://rbase.new-factoria.ru/missile/wobb/hermes/hermes.shtml
    So you're saying the situation is even more effed up since the development is going for 13 FUCKING YEARS already? Tanks are developed and put into service faster.

    Actually Hermes-A was first time mentioned in 1995. in magazine "Авиация - Kосмонавтикa".

    A heavy ATGM that is developed for 23 years. Simply unreal. I wont be surprised if plasma cannons exist by the time the Hermes A enters service.
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    Re: Russian Helicopter ATGMs

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jan 07, 2017 11:24 am

    What do you mean "will be". This mounting was shown back in 2009. If hermes-A is still not ready then there is a severe problem with the management that needs a stalin-esque purge. The time for "will" is long gone, now there is "ASAP".

    Hahaha... I have a book from KPB tula from 2001 with mockups of the Hermes missile... do you think that means anything?

    If there is a will, and i hope there is, Hermes could be used on Su-34/Su-30 same way Brimstone is used on Typhoons.

    Would be interesting if they developed a smaller free fall model without the rocket booster to be released from high altitude from UCAVs... with a glider wing package or something.

    So you're saying the situation is even more effed up since the development is going for 13 FUCKING YEARS already? Tanks are developed and put into service faster.

    Grow up child.

    WTF is the point of putting into service a missile with a range of 20km when the in service attack helos that would carry it can't detect targets at more than 8-10km at best?

    Right now the Mi-28NM is getting near production and its mast mounted radar should be able to detect larger targets at 20-25km (ie buildings and bridges etc as well as tanks and IFVs). So now it starts to become useful... but even if it was ready right no in service aircraft could even use its capabilities... Vikhr is in service and much cheaper... as is Krisantema and Ataka.



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    Re: Russian Helicopter ATGMs

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sat Jan 07, 2017 7:59 pm

    At least khrisantema is in service...
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    Re: Russian Helicopter ATGMs

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:04 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    What do you mean "will be". This mounting was shown back in 2009. If hermes-A is still not ready then there is a severe problem with the management that needs a stalin-esque purge. The time for "will" is long gone, now there is "ASAP".

    Hahaha... I have a book from KPB tula from 2001 with mockups of the Hermes missile... do you think that means anything?

    If there is a will, and i hope there is, Hermes could be used on Su-34/Su-30 same way Brimstone is used on Typhoons.

    Would be interesting if they developed a smaller free fall model without the rocket booster to be released from high altitude from UCAVs... with a glider wing package or something.

    So you're saying the situation is even more effed up since the development is going for 13 FUCKING YEARS already? Tanks are developed and put into service faster.

    Grow up child.

    WTF is the point of putting into service a missile with a range of 20km when the in service attack helos that would carry it can't detect targets at more than 8-10km at best?

    Right now the Mi-28NM is getting near production and its mast mounted radar should be able to detect larger targets at 20-25km (ie buildings and bridges etc as well as tanks and IFVs). So now it starts to become useful... but even if it was ready right no in service aircraft could even use its capabilities... Vikhr is in service and much cheaper... as is Krisantema and Ataka.

    They could've put it into service on the Su-25SM3, Su-30MK,, or on truck mounted launchers while being guided by UAVs.
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    Re: Russian Helicopter ATGMs

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:08 am

    You do understand the difference between a mockup and a functional operational weapon right?

    Right now MiG can talk about the MiG-41 all they want... it can do everything and be everything the air force needs and more... but without funding it remains talk and mockups.

    If the air force actually decides it wants it it does not matter when MiG started talking about it... whether it was 1988 or 2016 when the funds start flowing the development goes beyond the prototype stage and the weapon ends its theory stage and starts development into being a system... from the weapon itself and all the electronics and systems needed to all the support and even training equipment and systems.

    The hermes is evolved from the SA-22 SAM missile so the airframe and launch tube are already developed but there is plenty to add... like about 5 different terminal guidance options that they promised. The final system will likely have multi sensors like mmw radar guidance, IIR guidance, GLONASS guidance, laser target homing.

    then they have to add them to the different platforms and test them on those.

    An Su-25TM might be able to use these missiles in terms of detection range and capability but I would think an Su-25SM3 would probably need something like a SAPSAN targeting pod to engage targets with HERMES.

    I would expect if guided rockets are to be used on the Frogfoot then it is more likely to be the S-25 with a laser homing warhead. 150kgs of HE on target would be rather devastating enough and probably cheaper too.


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    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
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    Flanky

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    Re: Russian Helicopter ATGMs

    Post  Flanky on Sat Jan 21, 2017 12:28 pm

    I was also very keen to know Hermes project status. Because all i hear is talk and talk... But i have seen Brimstone capabilities: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXyYXqX4Beo&t=49s
    If i were a person responsible for Hermes project development i would wait for Brimstone to be fielded and see its actual real capabilities and then finish Hermes development with equal if not better capabilities. I suspect this is probably what is happening. They are waiting to see how Brimstone will turn up to be and will adjust Hermes capabilities based on that?
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Helicopter ATGMs

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:56 am

    I don't think so.

    Hermes is being developed for a customer... the Russian military.

    I very much doubt the Russian military will be saying to KBP that whatever they make of Hermes it has to be better than Brimstone...

    the russian military will have a fairly specific set of requirements in terms of speed, guidance options, range and effect on various types of target types... and they will all be unrelated to Brimstone.



    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

    ult

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    Re: Russian Helicopter ATGMs

    Post  ult on Fri Mar 03, 2017 2:30 pm

    Vikhr-1 combat debut in Syria. Some footage of launches from 8 km.

    https://youtu.be/4vQbtHK1Dsg?t=2m28s

    УР-В means Guided Missile - Vikhr


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    Re: Russian Helicopter ATGMs

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