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    UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:56 pm

    Manned helicopters are using mostly unguided rockets because nobody wants to waste the money a ATGM costs to kill two guys with a machine gun.

    Not strictly true... what we have seen in Syria is that rockets are used to stop attacks by the enemy where you have a group that is spread out heading towards friendly troops... a good spread of HE frag rockets is the ideal solution in such a situation.

    When the target is militants in a car or a MG position it is much easier to use a Shturm or Ataka, which is a relatively cheap and simple command guided missile that is a fraction of the cost of a Hellfire or other such western missile equivalent...

    When the enemy is better armed it makes sense to fire from stand off distances and at such distances gun fire and rockets are not much use.

    But it is not about unguided rockets. Heli drones will use all kinds of weapons, including Vikhr-M or Hermes.

    But that is the thing... even to use Vikhr they will need advanced optics and sensors that can identify targets 10km away... that just is not going to happen... they will keep it simple for the drones and have a range of options from suicide drones that are intended to go into dangerous places and look... and kill one target when it is spent, through to a drone they can send in to fire gun and rocket from relatively close range... though mostly flying at 3-4km altitude and firing steeply down to maximise accuracy and minimise risk/danger. That latter drone might carry AT-2 and AT-6 and AT-9 type old missiles to use up old stocks at ranges from a few kilometres with cheap missiles against structures rather than tanks... these missiles will most likely be armed with HE Frag warheads rather than more expensive HEAT, because you don't need exotic metal liners in a HE warhead to take out a Toyota ute.

    Further back you have the Kamovs and Mils scanning for targets and passing target information to HQ and any ground forces nearby and engaging priority targets like air defence vehicles... basically to protect the drones so they last a little longer.

    1) you loose helo you replace with new one no need to replace people an train them

    The problem is the difference in performance that comes from the difference in cost.

    What you are basically saying is that in war instead of a highly trained SEAL or Spetsnaz, you just give the weapon to a skinny.... if the skinny dies then get another skinny... no training, no protective vest, no expensive night vision and communications equipment etc etc.

    What I am saying to you is that there is a significant difference between the performance on a battlefield between a modern attack helo and any drone I have ever seen.

    Getting a drone to anything like the protection level of a Havoc means it will need powerful and expensive engines and will need to be big and will need modern and expensive sensors and self defence systems like DIRCMs... if you have all that... how much are you actually saving and how expendable is it really... if you don't then it probably wont last very long so you are going to need hundreds if not thousands of them and for the troops they are supporting they wont be much use except getting the enemy to expend some ammo.

    They are going to have the helos anyway... they are making them... so why not add some drones that can support helicopter operations... some can also be helos, but most of the time a fixed wing UCAV flying at 3-5km altitude and firing downwards at targets above small arms fire and a tricky shot for ATGMs or MANPADS because of their small optical and IR signature makes a lot more sense... will last longer, yet provide information over the enemy front line.

    Obviously in WWIII you are going to need different tactics because they wont last long with a well equipped well supplied enemy, but as a part of a team they make sense.

    2) if every drone is expandable you have to assume that every Mi-28 is also expandable

    Military planners have to consider every military unit to be expendable, but some things are more expendable than others, and unmanned platforms are the most expendable most of the time.

    I´m not against manned helis. But their main task is still CAS with FFAR´s and guns. For me it is unneccessary and dangerous to use manned machines doing this job. Use sophisticated helis with stand-off weapons against high-value targets (tanks and so on) and less sophisticated drones with guns, rockets and bombs against foot soldiers/terrorists.

    I don't disagree, but with these less sophisticated drones... helo drones can land in a small spot and can hover, but most of the time the sort of support you are talking about is better delivered by a cheaper simpler fixed wing drone... the obvious analogy is to compare support from a Hind to support from an Su-25... delivering from higher altitude at higher speed in a dive makes sense in a cheaper more capable platform.

    The new more sophisticated helos will be using guns and rockets rather less simply because their short range makes the aircraft vulnerable.

    Perhaps some simple gyro stabilised rockets that adopt a more consistent flight trajectory... not guided as such but with a more repeatable and consistent flight path to make them easier to use on more distant targets and to cope better with crosswinds etc could be a cheap way of improving their performance and effective range without making them too expensive to use.
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    Post  archangelski on Sat Mar 23, 2019 4:29 pm

    UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News - Page 36 Kj6b33x
    Hole
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    Post  Hole on Sat Mar 23, 2019 5:10 pm

    Stealth suit is off! Very Happy
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:23 am

    That is a decent sized toy there.

    What needs to be kept in mind is that some UAVs can be small enough to fit in the palm of your hand and might fly vertically up to 300-500m or so and look around... things in the next door neighbours back yard or over a small rise in front of you to see what is ahead... with it being so tiny it is unlikely the enemy will even see it, but the information it gives you is invaluable and means you don't have to stumble forward blind. There might be enemy there you can't see of course, but such things are often reveal by communications chatter or when they open fire.

    Then you have 100 different classes of UAV from that palm size that might fly up in the air or might be rolled into a building to look around on the ground around corners etc, through to enormous UAVs designed to operate high up with powerful cameras to monitor an area all day and night... plus dozens or hundreds of different sizes and uses in between... some fly... some roll, and the ones that fly... some might hover and land vertically and others might land by parachute and need catapult launch systems... which are generally cheaper than a rocket launch system for repeated use.

    UAVs and UCAVs are a good idea, but they are much more useful for some things than for others...

    Flying in to enemy territory the chances of recovering a UAV is pretty low, so if carrying UAVs to sneak ahead and look for targets and threats then put a small warhead in them so when they are low on fuel you can dive them into an enemy target and take it out.
    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:08 am

    It's what Dr.GarryB ordered....Almaz Antey's UAV loaded with a Vepr-12:



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    Post  Hole on Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:41 am

    Now design a drone around this baby! Wink Very Happy

    UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News - Page 36 000136
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    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:16 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:It's what Dr.GarryB ordered....Almaz Antey's UAV loaded with a Vepr-12:




    So much precision but no radar, no camera ... probably remote controled. I have some doubts about that.

    For me it's a fake. The idea is possible but this one seems really fake.

    But more info about :

    Almaz Antei filed a patent about the drone.

    http://new.fips.ru/registers-doc-view/fips_servlet?DB=RUDE&rn=7676&DocNumber=113562&QID=504E2C67-B95A-4BFD-BBCA-385FFC46BF01&TypeFile=html
    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS on Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:31 pm

    The perfect tool for high profile assasination Shocked

    A good sight and a sniper rifle instead and this thing would be extremely difficult to defend against in open-air events where political figures participate...
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:37 pm

    LMFS wrote:The perfect tool for high profile assasination Shocked

    A good sight and a sniper rifle instead and this thing would be extremely difficult to defend against in open-air events where political figures participate...


    Or destroy f-35 parked outside of hangars.
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    Post  LMFS on Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:56 pm

    Isos wrote:Or destroy f-35 parked outside of hangars.
    Of course, better even since a 12,7 mm rifle will have even bigger range and a plane is big enough not to need extreme precision. The cost would be ridiculous and flying low until the last minute, they would be so difficult to catch... you can send 20 or 30 of them at the same time. Rocket launcher or low ballistic bigger calibre cannon would do too, with smart ammo they would lay waste to a hole airbase. These things are going to get pretty nasty real quick!
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:57 pm

    LMFS wrote:The perfect tool for high profile assasination Shocked

    A good sight and a sniper rifle instead and this thing would be extremely difficult to defend against in open-air events where political figures participate...

    Fitted with a AGS-30 it would actually be more effective weapon for that, because sniper rounds are really subject to more than a grenade round:



    ...Add some RAM coated feathers to make it look like a condor.

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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:28 am

    Hole wrote:Now design a drone around this baby!  Wink  Very Happy
    UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News - Page 36 000136


    T-800 was a drone after all thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup

    UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News - Page 36 13tw8n
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    Post  Hole on Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:58 am

    A russian company already tested a drone fitted with a RPG-22. New marketing tool: F-35 killer. Very Happy
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    Post  Isos on Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:44 am

    Hole wrote:A russian company already tested a drone fitted with a RPG-22. New marketing tool: F-35 killer. Very Happy

    A drone paralyzed an airport in UK flying above all day while no one could do anything to stop him

    Civilian drones are already able to fly in a zone without leaving it. Be that zone the airport.

    Add a camera and a software that reconizes f-35 and a grenade launcher and you have a cheap autonomous drone that can act as a strategic weapons.

    Would work even easier against awacs and refuel tankers. Which would hurt nato more than losing f-35s.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:23 am

    Yeah, nobody else freaked out by that drone flying around with a live 12g shotgun like that?

    If that was in the west there would be no one within 5km of the place and it would be conducted with everyone in a military bunker and the two drones and balloon outside behind metres of concrete.

    Regarding its performance... a simple normal camera could be used for aiming.... I mean as long as you get close enough and use buckshot or a heavier pellet load like 1s or 2s, that should be plenty to burst balloons and to destroy other plastic aircraft UAVs easily enough...

    I think they chose a very poor design because the nose angles up in flight... would be more effective in my opinion if it was angled down slightly so you could dive on the targets... most UAVs are interested in the ground so the best direction to attack one would be from behind so the closing speed is not so high and from above.

    Clearly they want a system that can be located around a base ready to take off vertically and attack a target and then land again for rearm and refuel.

    A bigger UAV would be a more stable weapons platform too.

    That 23mm gatling can be mounted on the unmanned ground vehicle with a couple of thousand rounds of ready to use ammo and water cooling for the barrels... it is not a gatling if you can fire 6,000 rounds per burst.... Smile
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    Post  flamming_python on Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:53 am

    It's just a prototype

    Hence no sensors/optics. They aren't performing firing tests, but testing the controls, landing/takeoff and aerodynamics. They put the weapon in as a placeholder for now, to test it's effect on flight and control.

    It's obvious it's an attempt at an ultra-cheap drone. There's barely any integration between the airframe and the weapon. Once the magazine is finished that's it. But then that should be enough, the endurance of the UAV is probably no more than half an hour anyway. Once it's out of ammo it's just a short trip back to swap the magazine and change batteries. And the advantage is that it's completely modular this way; many different types of assault rifles and shotguns can be mounted.

    The finished version, if it gets to that stage, would probably have a camera and computer/targeting system that can be synced quickly to the weapon's characteristics.

    Could come in handy for the police or for perimeter defense of NPPs, prisons and other secure objects.
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    Post  flamming_python on Mon Apr 01, 2019 1:41 am

    Hole wrote:Now design a drone around this baby!  Wink  Very Happy

    UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News - Page 36 000136
    UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News - Page 36 000233
    GarryB wrote:Yeah, nobody else freaked out by that drone flying around with a live 12g shotgun like that?

    If that was in the west there would be no one within 5km of the place and it would be conducted with everyone in a military bunker and the two drones and balloon outside behind metres of concrete.

    Regarding its performance... a simple normal camera could be used for aiming.... I mean as long as you get close enough and use buckshot or a heavier pellet load like 1s or 2s, that should be plenty to burst balloons and to destroy other plastic aircraft UAVs easily enough...

    I think they chose a very poor design because the nose angles up in flight... would be more effective in my opinion if it was angled down slightly so you could dive on the targets... most UAVs are interested in the ground so the best direction to attack one would be from behind so the closing speed is not so high and from above.

    Clearly they want a system that can be located around a base ready to take off vertically and attack a target and then land again for rearm and refuel.

    A bigger UAV would be a more stable weapons platform too.

    That 23mm gatling can be mounted on the unmanned ground vehicle with a couple of thousand rounds of ready to use ammo and water cooling for the barrels... it is not a gatling if you can fire 6,000 rounds per burst.... Smile

    Something like this, perhaps? Very Happy 

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    Post  LMFS on Mon Apr 01, 2019 2:15 am

    flamming_python wrote:Something like this, perhaps? Very Happy 
    Hahaha, what is this madness? They have finished off the whole US military in ten minutes with two guys lol1 lol1
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    Post  Hole on Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:04 am

    If an murican company had produced this video some pundits on Fox or CNBC would say that this will be the reality in 5 years. Maybe 6. Very Happy
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:46 am

    Yeah... now all they have to do is build it, and then get the enemy to base all their assets together in one barely protected base with shit air defence.

    I think the biggest problem will be to develop that special gatling gun... I have seen a lot of gatling guns but apart from the hand cranked ones I have never seen one fire so slowly, yet with such great accuracy... every shot seemed to hit a different target with a round powerful enough to take the target out with one shot... just develop that gatling gun and you would be set.
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    Post  Hole on Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:28 am

    The original Gatling gun fired even slower. Very Happy

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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:41 pm

    I hope they will not allow this


    https://aviation21.ru/rossijskomu-proizvoditelyu-bpla-predlozhili-pereexat-v-ssha/

    Russian manufacturer of UAVs offered to move to the USA


    The authorities of the US state of New York offered the Russian company ADA Aerospace about $ 200 million of investment, real estate and benefits for employees to manufacture its UAVs in the USA, the first agreements have already been signed, reports RIA News with reference to a source in the company.

    "The New York State Department of Economic Development offers ADA Aerospace to build a TRIADA project for producing convertible plans in the US and is ready to provide comprehensive support with investment for business development," said an ADA Aerospace spokesman.

    According to him, the state of New York offers the company a space to organize a plant - up to 4 thousand square meters in the first stage, real estate for employees, benefits, grants and subsidies for relocation and adaptation in the USA, as well as initial business development investments of 200 million dollars - for this the department has its own venture capital fund and a pool of investors. "It takes an average of two to four months to transfer business and employees to New York," the company added.

    "We have already signed a number of agreements with the New York State Department of Economic Development. The proposed conditions can be called ideal: a comfortable tax regime, a ready infrastructure, access to professional staff, cooperation with the strongest specialized universities, and also the most favorable conditions for living and working in innovation state ecosystem ", - said the founder and head of the board of directors of ADA Aerospace Alexander Milevsky.

    “And, of course, a wide range of financial instruments - from benefits and grants to venture investments. Such prospects look more than tempting,” he added



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    Post  kvs on Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:23 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:I hope they will not allow this


    https://aviation21.ru/rossijskomu-proizvoditelyu-bpla-predlozhili-pereexat-v-ssha/

    Russian manufacturer of UAVs offered to move to the USA


    The authorities of the US state of New York offered the Russian company ADA Aerospace about $ 200 million of investment, real estate and benefits for employees to manufacture its UAVs in the USA, the first agreements have already been signed, reports RIA News with reference to a source in the company.

    "The New York State Department of Economic Development offers ADA Aerospace to build a TRIADA project for producing convertible plans in the US and is ready to provide comprehensive support with investment for business development," said an ADA Aerospace spokesman.

    According to him, the state of New York offers the company a space to organize a plant - up to 4 thousand square meters in the first stage, real estate for employees, benefits, grants and subsidies for relocation and adaptation in the USA, as well as initial business development investments of 200 million dollars - for this the department has its own venture capital fund and a pool of investors. "It takes an average of two to four months to transfer business and employees to New York," the company added.

    "We have already signed a number of agreements with the New York State Department of Economic Development. The proposed conditions can be called ideal: a comfortable tax regime, a ready infrastructure, access to professional staff, cooperation with the strongest specialized universities, and also the most favorable conditions for living and working in innovation state ecosystem ", - said the founder and head of the board of directors of ADA Aerospace Alexander Milevsky.

    “And, of course, a wide range of financial instruments - from benefits and grants to venture investments. Such prospects look more than tempting,” he added




    Looks like Milevsky is a liberast sell-out. There is no way that operating costs in the USA would be cheaper than in Russia. At the same time, the US market already has enough UAV makers so any upstart will have a massive entry barrier. It is true that venture capital is more easily available in the USA. But that is neither here nor there unless Milevsky intends to supply the Russian UAV market from the USA. Given the war climate between the USA and Russia this is not going to happen.

    This is the USA using sanctions pressure to poach Russian intellectual property via useful idiots and sellouts like Milevsky. Putin needs to crush this at all costs. Milevsky can then go and run to his NATO utopia but without Russian capital and talent.

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    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Apr 02, 2019 5:34 pm

    I hope they will not allow this


    https://aviation21.ru/rossijskomu-proizvoditelyu-bpla-predlozhili-pereexat-v-ssha/

    Russian manufacturer of UAVs offered to move to the USA...

    What's the problem?

    I don't see Russia offering investment, real estate and tax breaks so clearly they don't need these products. USA does.

    They don't have reason not to move.
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    Post  bolshevik345 on Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:01 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    I hope they will not allow this




    Russian manufacturer of UAVs offered to move to the USA...

    What's the problem?

    I don't see Russia offering investment, real estate and tax breaks so clearly they don't need these products. USA does.

    They don't have reason not to move.
    Why would the USA need russian UAVs?

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