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    UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News

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    Austin

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    Re: UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News

    Post  Austin on Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:48 am

    Supersonic would be useful during egress mission once Hunter drops its weapon it would want to fly high and fast back to its base rather than going subsonic. It will increase its survivability chance of it gets detected.

    Remember even B-2 used long range stand off weapons in Serbia conflict. 

    During Dog fight being supersonic will improve weapons capability in BVR missile 


    I am not sure if this bird can go supersonic or not but since it has a Nozzle and 117S engine perhaps it can ,Russia has officially acknowledged it is working on supersonic UCAV



    Russia Developing New Supersonic Attack Drone
    https://i-hls.com/archives/81761

    “Development work is currently underway on a long-range unmanned system capable of carrying out unmanned low-altitude supersonic flights, and striking both stationary and mobile targets at operational-strategic depth,” the officer explained.
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    Re: UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News

    Post  dino00 on Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:36 pm

    Impact drone "Hunter" will be able to break through the air defense together with the fifth generation fighter Su-57

    Moscow. January 26th. INTERFAX-AVN - The “Hunter” heavy drone drone is intended, inter alia, to break through the air defense when working in tandem with the fifth-generation fighter Su-57, an informed source told Interfax.
    "It is assumed that the" Hunter "will be able to work in conjunction with the Su-57 fighter. That is, one of the tasks of the drone is to break through the air defense, and then the manned aircraft enters the perimeter," the agency’s source said.
    According to him, in the future, several impact drones will work in conjunction with the fighter. “The crew of the Su-57 will be able to remotely control the“ Hunter ”so that both devices work smoothly in a single network circuit,” the source said.

    More
    http://www.militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=1&nid=500441
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    Re: UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News

    Post  Hole on Sat Jan 26, 2019 4:49 pm

    Which crew? It is one man = pilot. Until now.

    One remark to Austin: BVR means beyond visual range = long range, dog fight means close encounter = short range.
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    Re: UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News

    Post  LMFS on Sat Jan 26, 2019 6:37 pm

    GarryB wrote:Why would it be supersonic?
    That possibility was being discussed. IMHO it makes no sense with that aero design and besides it is not the point behind an unmanned strike flying wing, which is optimized for endurance and stealth to tackle high-risk missions
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    Re: UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:03 am

    Supersonic would be useful during egress mission once Hunter drops its weapon it would want to fly high and fast back to its base rather than going subsonic. It will increase its survivability chance of it gets detected.

    Going supersonic would increase its IR signature, both from engine exhaust and visible AB flame adding IR and optical signature, but also increased friction heating of the front of the aircraft as it moves at high speed.

    At most it might go mach 2... which is not really any safer against enemy missiles...

    To make it supersonic there are serious design changes that need to be made that will restrict size and wing sweep which might make it worse in a lot of other areas...

    Remember even B-2 used long range stand off weapons in Serbia conflict.

    Americans are cowards.

    During Dog fight being supersonic will improve weapons capability in BVR missile

    There is no aircraft on the planet that can dogfight at supersonic speeds... dogfight means turning manouvering combat... supersonic speeds means flying straight and level for long periods burning large amounts of fuel.

    Being able to climb and accelerate to launch a missile will improve its flight range and energy performance, but you are hardly going to go for a flying wing configuration for a dogfight aircraft.

    "It is assumed that the" Hunter "will be able to work in conjunction with the Su-57 fighter. That is, one of the tasks of the drone is to break through the air defense, and then the manned aircraft enters the perimeter," the agency’s source said.
    According to him, in the future, several impact drones will work in conjunction with the fighter. “The crew of the Su-57 will be able to remotely control the“ Hunter ”so that both devices work smoothly in a single network circuit,” the source said.

    So basically the hunter drone is sent into enemy air space first and all the things that target it and open fire on it are detected and located and likely fired apon... the Hunter will probably be armed with ARMs and also carries towed decoys and jamming equipment to attract the attention of the enemy air defences and engage them while the Su-57s monitor and engage targets too, while trying to not reveal their presence.
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    Re: UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News

    Post  ATLASCUB on Sun Jan 27, 2019 8:35 am

    Hole wrote:Which crew? It is one man = pilot. Until now.

    One remark to Austin: BVR means beyond visual range = long range, dog fight means close encounter = short range.

    Fair point. Where is the 2-seater Su-57? Given the paltry numbers to be procured and no sign of the Indians signing on to the project the 2-seater Su-57 is several years off - 5 years least.

    In a one-seater configuration you're running into massive pilot overload or extremely limited capability. Doesn't make sense at all.

    As for Garry's suggestion - that's a moronic use of a tens of millions of dollars worth of a drone - sacrificial lamb kamikaze.

    The Russians are at the beginning stages of this sort of pairing and so are the Americans so things will get cleared out in time.
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    Re: UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 27, 2019 9:40 am

    Fair point. Where is the 2-seater Su-57? Given the paltry numbers to be procured and no sign of the Indians signing on to the project the 2-seater Su-57 is several years off - 5 years least.

    In a one-seater configuration you're running into massive pilot overload or extremely limited capability. Doesn't make sense at all.

    The Russians never wanted a two seater Su-57... that was a demand from India and now they have pulled out I doubt Russia will bother making one just to get India to buy some.

    This is a 5th gen fighter with AI and automation... data is supposed to be processed and converted into easy to understand forms and displayed to the pilot when relevant and largely hidden when not.

    They have mentioned several times that the Su-57 has a computer based copilot...

    As for Garry's suggestion - that's a moronic use of a tens of millions of dollars worth of a drone - sacrificial lamb kamikaze.

    Yeah, of course... drones are so valuable you would never want to risk one.... so they have no fucking point then... if they cannot be risked then they cannot be used.

    The facts of the matter is that in a serious conflict the Su-57 will need to operate in places that are very dangerous, and it makes sense to have an unmanned platform that can go into places that would be considered suicidal to send a manned platform.

    You don't intend to lose them but the risk of losing a few is actually rather high but the two alternatives are to not go there or to send a manned platform... but you think sending an unmanned platform into a highly dangerous situation is moronic... right...

    The Russians are at the beginning stages of this sort of pairing and so are the Americans so things will get cleared out in time.

    The US needs this pairing much more than the Russians do because the US is replacing all its fighters with F-35s and F-22s so the amount of missiles they can bring into a combat situation is plummeting to a pitiful level... even though they are planning to buy over 2,000 F-35s.

    It is no accident that the planned UAV for the F-35 is a C-130 sized aircraft...
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    Re: UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News

    Post  ATLASCUB on Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:45 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    The Russians never wanted a two seater Su-57... that was a demand from India and now they have pulled out I doubt Russia will bother making one just to get India to buy some.

    This is a 5th gen fighter with AI and automation... data is supposed to be processed and converted into easy to understand forms and displayed to the pilot when relevant and largely hidden when not.

    You know that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about a pilot controlling a drone (or drone swarm) while at the same time carrying the duties of a fighter pilot. In a two-seater configuration you can divide the work respectively and avoid compromising capability - needless to say lessen the workload extensively. Strike aircraft like the Su-34 and Su-30SM are examples of the concept.



    Yeah, of course... drones are so valuable you would never want to risk one.... so they have no fucking point then... if they cannot be risked then they cannot be used.


    A 20 ton UCAV ain't cheap. You don't send those to the meat grinder just because. You do make a valid point that it's better for a drone (AND NOT a manned fighter) to get the first go at contested airspace (as part of a larger strategy). But for that sort of mission you described it's better to send a significantly cheaper and more specialized drone (alone, in a pack or large swarm) instead of a top of the line 20 ton UCAV.
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    Re: UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News

    Post  Hole on Sun Jan 27, 2019 9:46 pm




    Not the Okhotnik, but the missiles in the right corner of the pic are interesting.
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    Re: UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News

    Post  medo on Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:06 pm

    Looks like small stealth gliding bombs and missiles. Russia is learning from Israel for massive attacks with small stealth bombs. They should made kamikaze drons as well to attack enemy air defense complexes.
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    Re: UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News

    Post  Isos on Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:22 pm

    medo wrote:Looks like small stealth gliding bombs and missiles. Russia is learning from Israel for massive attacks with small stealth bombs. They should made kamikaze drons as well to attack enemy air defense complexes.

    They have modernized su-25 with kh-31 specially made for that role.

    Those israeli tactics are good against destroyed country/army. A big country needs thousands of kalibr instead stupid drones. The first who shot successfully its cruise missiles wins. By cruise missile I mean something with more than 1500km range. Suicide drones with range less than 100km are useless.
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    Re: UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:35 am

    ATLASCUB wrote:...In a one-seater configuration you're running into massive pilot overload or extremely limited capability. Doesn't make sense at all....


    With 5th gen aircraft computer processes the sensor data and identifies and prioritizes targets

    List is then displayed to pilot

    These drones will be tailing airplane automatically and will be getting target data from it's computer after which they will engage targets

    Pilot will have very little to do so no need for two pilot configuration
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    Re: UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News

    Post  LMFS on Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:34 am

    Yeah, in the end the pilot will be little more than the human in the loop that authorises the weapons release...
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    Re: UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:13 am

    You know that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about a pilot controlling a drone (or drone swarm) while at the same time carrying the duties of a fighter pilot. In a two-seater configuration you can divide the work respectively and avoid compromising capability - needless to say lessen the workload extensively. Strike aircraft like the Su-34 and Su-30SM are examples of the concept.

    There was a game called Outbreak where you were part of a two man team investigating what turns out to be an alien invasion.

    Anyway it was a good first person shooter, but it was a single player game... you could switch between the two players, but obviously you could never control both at the same time... so while you were one you put the other in a mode... there were several including stay here or follow me or guard this area... just as there were different setting for engagement... protect me, fire at will, hold fire etc etc.

    With a simple combination of settings like this you could actually quite effectively operate as a real team... you robot partner could pick out enemy forces much better than any human so it was actually rather valuable to have him with you rather than waiting at the last waypoint till you cleared the way ahead.

    It is likely the drone will have many of the same systems the Su-57 has so it wont be cheap but it will be much cheaper than an Su-57.

    Having an extra crewman dedicated to flying this UAV sounds like a remote controlled aircraft... it would be easier and safer to have someone no the ground doing that...

    Very simply the data collected by the UAV as it enters enemy airspace can be linked back to the Su-57 so his view is expanded rather than him seeing two separate views... the UAV will have its own weapons and could deal with some threats as they appear, but some times it might need to retreat and sometimes it will get things wrong and get shot down... but that is just a case to send in another UAV and deal with the new threats as they appear from both the UAV and the Su-57s further back as well as S-400 and S-500 systems in the region. Ground targets could be dealt with using long range missiles and stand off weapons, but the UAVs will force the defences to activate to defend themselves and reveal their positions and force strengths.

    A 20 ton UCAV ain't cheap. You don't send those to the meat grinder just because. You do make a valid point that it's better for a drone (AND NOT a manned fighter) to get the first go at contested airspace (as part of a larger strategy). But for that sort of mission you described it's better to send a significantly cheaper and more specialized drone (alone, in a pack or large swarm) instead of a top of the line 20 ton UCAV.

    At the end of the day everything is expendable and depending on the situation the cost of a few unmanned platforms is money well spent.

    Certainly there are other drones that could be used to light up defences and to activate enemy forces, but the purpose of operating with a Stealth Fighter is to extend its missile and sensor reach and reduce its exposure to enemy forces/threats.

    Looks like small stealth gliding bombs and missiles. Russia is learning from Israel for massive attacks with small stealth bombs. They should made kamikaze drons as well to attack enemy air defense complexes.

    There was talk of lots of brand new weapons getting final testing in 2019... perhaps a few of those will be new weapons for UCAVs and land and sea based robotic vehicles....
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    Re: UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News

    Post  Isos on Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:24 pm

    No one has dicussed it here about the ability of SIGINT aircraft to localize the drone operators. If they use radar or radio signal to control them, newest sigint aircraft can spot their location and send bombers or launch some Iskander on them. Most of drones operators needs to be within a certain range to operate it so they can be attacked. That's true true for smaller and medium ones.

    The biggest would most likely use satelittes so they can be jammed easily.

    Russia already detected from where syrian drones came when they attack hmeimim air base.

    And we know that su-57 has antennas to detect foreign signal emmissions and they should be used more than the radars. In the same time f-35 has been since the start created with the idea of controling drones. So you can see the philosophy behind the two project. Su-57 will be wolves while f-35 will be a farmer with its sheeps.
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    Re: UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News

    Post  ATLASCUB on Mon Jan 28, 2019 3:06 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    ATLASCUB wrote:...In a one-seater configuration you're running into massive pilot overload or extremely limited capability. Doesn't make sense at all....


    With 5th gen aircraft computer processes the sensor data and identifies and prioritizes targets

    List is then displayed to pilot

    These drones will be tailing airplane automatically and will be getting target data from it's computer after which they will engage targets

    Pilot will have very little to do so no need for two pilot configuration

    Serves as reply to others....
    ------------------

    Effective target discrimination and target prioritization is a big fat if without human input. This task aka its automation shouldn't be left to a drone. If a single-seater pilot is controlling more than 2 drones the workload will overwhelm him more than likely.

    What happens the moment the pilot of the controlling Su-57 becomes a target of of a SAM battery or enemy planes? Suddenly the drones hover around waiting for command? Or are we going to suggest they enter into this A.I mode where they become expert dogfighters? Please....we're not there yet, not even close. If we're suggesting satellite link to an operator at home then all the known limitations of today's drones come into play (not least, the potential for getting one or several hijacked).

    Much better for a dedicated operator in a two-seator to control the drone swarms in combat, while the pilot can focus on piloting the plane around the mission area (itself a big task - avoiding enemy planes, or SAM coverage area) + dogfighting BVR or WVR if the mission goes wary. Remote operation via sat link at "home" as a fall back fail-safe of a mission failure if the Su-57's gets taken out (to salvage as much as possible of the op.).

    Are the things you guys suggest possible? Anything is possible if you limit your scenarios to fit the argumentation. Are they practical and feasible by today's tech? Absolutely Not. I could come up with many more scenarios and question about this but suffice to say I got limited time for something I already worked up in my mind. Besides we'll know in the future what's what.
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    Re: UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News

    Post  Isos on Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:11 pm

    https://mobile.twitter.com/warsmonitoring/status/1089981685310124033

    Picture of a russian drone that launches hand grenades from a weapon bay. Was already tested. Can someone post the image here ?
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    Re: UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News

    Post  dino00 on Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:42 pm

    Isos wrote:https://mobile.twitter.com/warsmonitoring/status/1089981685310124033

    Picture of a russian drone that launches hand grenades from a weapon bay. Was already tested. Can someone post the image here ?




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    Re: UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:59 pm

    Effective target discrimination and target prioritization is a big fat if without human input. This task aka its automation shouldn't be left to a drone. If a single-seater pilot is controlling more than 2 drones the workload will overwhelm him more than likely.

    The newest ESM suites are automatic and don't require the pilot to tell it when to launch flares or chaff or to engage laser dazzlers to defeat EO sensors in incoming missiles...

    Target detection and identification don't require human input either.

    The Shkval-M system in the Ka-50 from the late 1980s could identify targets and mark them with a box for the pilot to either engage or not engage...


    What happens the moment the pilot of the controlling Su-57 becomes a target of of a SAM battery or enemy planes?

    For him to be the target I assume you mean they are scanning for his location actively... the drone equipped with ARMs would climb and accelerate in the direction of the radar signal and when in range a missile would be launched to deal with the problem...

    Enemy planes and the drones equipped with AAMs would climb and accelerate in the direction of the threat and launch missiles and then turn back to the planes they are supporting to wait for the results... any survivors and repeat until there are no more missiles or no more threats.

    Suddenly the drones hover around waiting for command? Or are we going to suggest they enter into this A.I mode where they become expert dogfighters?

    The UAVs shown are flying wings so will have nothing to do with turning dogfights... they are sensors and weapon trucks... they will climb and scan and launch missiles at high speed and high altitude to give their missiles max energy and then they will turn back and return to the pack supporting their aircraft.

    They will pretty much be fuel, weapons, sensors and decoys/jammers. They will have rather more fuel than the Su-57s because a lot of their time will be spent climbing and accelerating to launch weapons at max range.

    Please....we're not there yet, not even close. If we're suggesting satellite link to an operator at home then all the known limitations of today's drones come into play (not least, the potential for getting one or several hijacked).

    The purpose of AI is to prevent that... current simple UAVs have had their communications cut and simply landed as a standard protocol... a more intelligent AI would know not to land on enemy territory and to keep aware of friend and foe using its IFF systems.

    AI systems likely wont be better than humans, but wont be dumb drones either.

    Much better for a dedicated operator in a two-seator to control the drone swarms in combat, while the pilot can focus on piloting the plane around the mission area (itself a big task - avoiding enemy planes, or SAM coverage area) + dogfighting BVR or WVR if the mission goes wary. Remote operation via sat link at "home" as a fall back fail-safe of a mission failure if the Su-57's gets taken out (to salvage as much as possible of the op.).

    So you are claiming a satellite link is easy to hijack, but a local link is safe? You also think having both links would be best?

    Sure is Russian?

    The grenades are Russian... look like RGD-5...
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    Re: UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:16 am

    Well.... Duh... silly me... read the text on the picture...

    There are three sections... the top says basically standard grenades, the second is anti armour weapons and the third anti personel munitions.
    The standard grenades are VOG-25P and VOG-25... which are 40mm underbarrel grenade launcher grenades... I assume they are mounted in their own launchers for the purpose in this case, the RGO and RGN which are new Soviet hand grenades developed from experience in Afghanistan... they have a time fuse but also an impact fuse so they wont bounce off rocks back to the person throwing it... if you loft it right you could get an air burst when the timed fuse set the grenade off too...

    RGD-5 and F-1 are the popular lemon type grenades (RGD-5 is smooth, while the F-1 looks segmented like a pineapple grenade).

    Zara-2 is a stun/flash grenade... could be used to break up riots without killing people...

    The second section is the PTAB-2.5 HEAT submunitions used in artillery (gun and rocket) as well as cluster bombs/warheads for bombs and various missile types.

    The third is AO-2.5T which are HE Frag submunitions for anti personel use.
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    Re: UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News

    Post  ATLASCUB on Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:31 am

    GarryB wrote:

    So you are claiming a satellite link is easy to hijack, but a local link is safe? You also think having both links would be best?


    A local link (usually limited by range) emanating from the controlling aircraft/drone might be safer. I think the goal and objective should be having both links simultaneously working together. One obviously being more secured than the other, both hedging each other and complementing each other for the operational workload.

    I think the discussion is interesting but in the end making guesses about capabilities is like arguing in thin air. These technical areas are not my forte either, only working here with whatever logical conclusions I can make from gathered knowledge - which means I could be wrong on a great many many things. We'll see what's in store in the not so near future - what the tech is, what the tech allows in theory, what the tech allows in practice and the strategies that go along with it, as well as the limitations. As always engaging in healthy skepticism should be undertaken when talking about new wunderwaffe.
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    Re: UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News

    Post  ATLASCUB on Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:56 am

    dino00 wrote:
    Isos wrote:https://mobile.twitter.com/warsmonitoring/status/1089981685310124033

    Picture of a russian drone that launches hand grenades from a weapon bay. Was already tested. Can someone post the image here ?




    This made me laugh....

    "Grenade!!!!!!!!"
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    Re: UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News

    Post  miketheterrible on Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:04 am

    Others do the same thing. So a small drone to drop on units gathered, isn't that bad of an idea.  But I don't see much need for it.

    I can see comments are just retarded people, not knowing that all these drones are from different companies.
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    Re: UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News

    Post  Hole on Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:20 am

    This drone is called Karnivora.
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    Re: UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News

    Post  ATLASCUB on Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:23 pm

    Hole wrote:This drone is called Karnivora.

    Nice. Cool

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