Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News

    higurashihougi
    higurashihougi

    Posts : 2243
    Points : 2336
    Join date : 2014-08-13
    Location : A small and cutie S-shaped land.

    UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News - Page 35 Empty Re: UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News

    Post  higurashihougi on Mon Feb 18, 2019 2:34 pm

    flamming_python wrote:A drone is much smaller, and much quieter, with a lower radar signature. They also have endurance, like an aircraft. It can sneak in, identify targets, and then you can choose yourself who to attack, from what angle and precisely when (for co-ordination with other drones)

    Which means they may have a relatively small niche, and a high-end one, that is surprise attack against vital targets. The target is quite a VIP one in order to be targeted by such an UAV.

    In reality, in order to hit the VIP target, months of investigations and large amount of intelligence information is needed and such targets are well covered so that hundreds or thousands kg of explosive is needed... the warhead of UAV likes Harop or Harpy is only ATGM-sized, too weak to make a dent in many occasions.

    Another niche for such kamikaze drone is that the bomb is a self-defense tool or opportunistic offensive tool, which means the UAV will only make an attack when the situation is demanding enough while most of the time they are doing other jobs, like scouting.

    GarryB wrote:Certainly it is up to the crew to decide whether to send a drone in or to pop up over the hill and have a look themselves... but a lot of enemy activity could make it a suicide mission anyway so sending in a suicide drone lets you sit back and mark detected targets on a map from a high altitude drone or even satellite scanning for radar emissions and small arms fire etc etc... lots of data could be collected as to the enemy force strength and location without risking an expensive attack helo.

    The drone does not need to carry a bomb to make a kamikaze attack... it only needs to be the eye at the frontline for the army, to replace the human scouting squad at very dangerous spots. It will provide sufficient information to guide the missiles, bombs and artillery shells safely launched from the rear.

    A suicide bomb will take up quite a number of space and weight which can be used for engine, fuel and sensors... that issue is important if we consider that in order to achieve lowest observability possible we cannot use too large UAV and the payload is limited. As far as I know, scouting-suicide UAV only have a small warhead, similar to the level of ATGM.

    Not to mention that it is more profitable to reuse the sensors and camera multiple times rather than let in destroyed in a suicide attack.

    Personally I think if the linkage between frontline eyes and rear guns is strong enough and the artillery crews are good enough in calculating the ballistic, the scouting-suicide UAV is not really needed.
    medo
    medo

    Posts : 3511
    Points : 3595
    Join date : 2010-10-24
    Location : Slovenia

    UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News - Page 35 Empty UCAV thread general

    Post  medo on Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:47 pm

    flamming_python wrote:Not very impressive considering that the Israeli equivalent can go at something like 185 km/h and has an endurance of up to 6 hours

    30 minutes is not long enough to be useful in any type of Air Force operation. This is something that would be useful for the motor-rifles, engineer battallions, etc... assuming that it can be launched from the ground without any complicated equipment and operated from something like a laptop. Would be good for reducing bunkers, fortifications, garrisoned buildings, AT guns, etc...

    Exactly. it is far smaller and cheaper than Israeli Harpy and could be used in greater numbers. It is more tactical system. With half an hour endurance it have range around 40 or 50 km. It could carry 2 kg warhead and it could be HEAT warhead. It have far longer range than any ATGM and could asearch for targets and than attack them from above. Used in large swarm they could easily make air defense ineffective as there will be to many to deal with them and as they are small and quiet, they could be observed at a quite short distance. In that case they could easily take out armor units, artillery, SAMs, etc.

    Of course, they could produce bigger kamikaze drones with longer range and endurance time, but they are also easier targets to be shot down. True, Syria lost few pantsirs, but mostly for tactical error, because they operate Pantsirs alone and not as a whole battery, where Pantsirs protect each other against swarms and in time of reloading missiles. Pantsir alone should work only in self defense, not in tactical defense.
    dino00
    dino00

    Posts : 869
    Points : 910
    Join date : 2012-10-12
    Age : 31
    Location : portugal

    UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News - Page 35 Empty Re: UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News

    Post  dino00 on Mon Feb 18, 2019 8:01 pm

    We have to remember that The Suicide Drone was presented in Abu Dhabi in a export presentation, the UAV performance should be the export varient, Russia Mod may not need a drone like this, or want better performance.
    GunshipDemocracy
    GunshipDemocracy

    Posts : 4914
    Points : 4952
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Age : 77
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News - Page 35 Empty Re: UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue Feb 19, 2019 12:11 pm

    dino00 wrote:We have to remember that The Suicide Drone was presented in Abu Dhabi in a export presentation, the UAV performance should be the export varient, Russia Mod may not need a drone like this, or want better performance.

    in Syria like conflicts? it's just great. Imagine mounted launcher n pick-up truck.
    flamming_python
    flamming_python

    Posts : 3460
    Points : 3544
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News - Page 35 Empty UAVs general thread

    Post  flamming_python on Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:32 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    A drone which are able to operate autonomously, with the scouting ability, with this and that sensors and cameras... are too much valuable to be a used only one time... except it is design to destroy a vital target which can decisively decide the outcome of the battle.

    The principle of kamikaze UAV is that it has to be many times cheaper than the target which is intended to be destroy.

    The system shown looks like a system shown for the Ka-52 and was designed to be carried in boxes of 4-5 UAVs that could be released in flight to scout the area ahead... having an endurance of 35 minutes would be ideal, and a suicide terminal phase would solve the problem of recovering such a UAV in the field...

    Such drones could be made relatively cheaply and mass produced in fairly large numbers... and if they accurately hit a target that could threaten a multi million dollar attack helo then they would be well worth it.

    Certainly it is up to the crew to decide whether to send a drone in or to pop up over the hill and have a look themselves... but a lot of enemy activity could make it a suicide mission anyway so sending in a suicide drone lets you sit back and mark detected targets on a map from a high altitude drone or even satellite scanning for radar emissions and small arms fire etc etc... lots of data could be collected as to the enemy force strength and location without risking an expensive attack helo.

    Not very impressive considering that the Israeli equivalent can go at something like 185 km/h and has an endurance of up to 6 hours

    I suspect it is designed to operate from aircraft like the Ka-52 in the recon mission as a tool to search ahead in enemy airspace looking for ground threats and enemy air defence systems... it would get all the small air defence systems to light up and then you could hit them with ARMs while this drone picks one target to take out...

    Collecting data on the enemy... location of positions and strengths as well as what equipment and systems are there... ie radar or SAMs or other things could be monitored by platforms further away like a modified Tu-214 or something... pretty much acting like a JSTARS... it would take a bit of small arms fire to bring down such a drone... lots of wing surface area so rifle calibre holes in it are not going to get the job done very easily....

    Thing is though, Kalashnikov Concern is hyping up this system for export. So it doesn't look like it's aimed primarily at Ka-52 use.
    dino00
    dino00

    Posts : 869
    Points : 910
    Join date : 2012-10-12
    Age : 31
    Location : portugal

    UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News - Page 35 Empty Re: UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News

    Post  dino00 on Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:36 pm

    Nibiru
    Nibiru

    Posts : 200
    Points : 202
    Join date : 2018-05-22

    UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News - Page 35 Empty Re: UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News

    Post  Nibiru on Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:55 pm

    Russian army to receive medium-range attack drones in 2019


    MOSCOW, March 11. /TASS/. The Russian Armed Forces will commission medium-range attack drones for the first time in 2019, Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu stated on Monday during a session of the Russian State Duma (lower house of parliament) Defense Committee.

    He noted that since 2012, 38 military units have been formed in the Russian army, equipped with over 2,000 military drones.
    "Starting this year, we will be receiving medium-range attack and surveillance systems," the minister said.
    Shoigu stressed that a breakthrough in drone aviation has provided new opportunities for reconnaissance and attack operations. "Thanks to drone laser illuminators, we have managed to give a second life to precision artillery weapon systems "Krasnopol", which had not been in demand before. As a result, we have decreased their expenditure - no more than two projectiles for one target - and increased their range," the minister explained.


    http://tass.com/defense/1048154
    LMFS
    LMFS

    Posts : 1398
    Points : 1392
    Join date : 2018-03-03

    UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News - Page 35 Empty Re: UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News

    Post  LMFS on Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:26 pm

    Dedicated to GarryB respekt

    Russian scientists have armed UAV automatic rifle

    https://z5h64q92x9.net/proxy_u/ru-en.ru/https/vpk.name/news/260783_rossiiskie_uchenyie_vooruzhili_bespilotnik_avtomaticheskim_karabinom.html
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 20796
    Points : 21350
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News - Page 35 Empty Re: UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News

    Post  GarryB on Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:38 am

    A good first step... I would go for a 10 gauge or 8 gauge shotgun where possible for testing and perfecting the system, but ultimately I would go for a 40mm grenade round with a fixed time fuse to detonate a forward firing fragmentation round at a distance of 20-40m or so... that way you could write the firing control code to ensure the grenade explodes in front of the target drone and blasts it directly with shrapnel at close range to ensure it is shredded with each shot, so ammo is not wasted.

    They could make millions of rounds that could also be used against ground targets... perhaps one with a twisting time fuse so you can set the rounds for say 40m for use in intercepting UAVs from this UAV, so the fire control system would fire grenades when the target was 50-60m away and the closing speed would mean the grenades would explode 5-10m away from the target and shower it with fragments to efficiently destroy it with one or two shots. Or you could twist it out to a much longer time fuse so the UAV could fly at 1,000m up, so it is pretty much a very difficult target for small arms fire but could fire grenades down at ground targets and shower the ground with fragments with air burst grenades exploding in the air... a few metres up.

    It is probably the most cost effective way to deal with terrorist simple Ucavs that are attacking bases... the price of fuel and a few 40mm grenades is cheap and sustainable and there would probably be fights over who gets to fly it in manual mode... the ultimate computer game...

    In comparison using Kornet missiles or Pantsir missiles is not super expensive but not cheap either...

    Note starting with a 10 gauge or 8 gauge shotgun would enable low cost development and testing to get the UAV manouverable enough and the fire control system accurate enough for the job, but needing to close within 20m of the target to ensure a kill would be harder than using a 40mm grenade which would have a much bigger kill zone.

    Of course getting a 40mm grenade designed and built to spec wont be cheap initially either but once they are in production it should become more efficient.

    A standard 40mm grenade launcher like Balkan has a range of 2.5km so a shoulder fired anti UCAV weapon with an advanced fuse could be an option in an emergency situation... ie Putin making a speech in public and in flies a UAV... they will have jammers and all sorts of other things but this weapon might be useful too.
    Hole
    Hole

    Posts : 2081
    Points : 2081
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 43
    Location : Merkelland

    UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News - Page 35 Empty Re: UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News

    Post  Hole on Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:18 am

    There is a bunch of helicopter drones in development, the heaviest one will weight some 7 tons (close to the weight of the Eurocopter Tiger). They will be able to carry the standard weapons fit of the manned attack helicopters = guns and unguided rockets.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 20796
    Points : 21350
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News - Page 35 Empty Re: UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News

    Post  GarryB on Wed Mar 20, 2019 12:06 am

    I prefer manned helicopters, and think a better solution would be cheap light laser guided rockets to allow accurate powerful attacks from safer stand off distances... a drone helicopter is simply going to get hammered by small arms fire and RPGs and likely wont last very long at all in combat.

    It might be OK for police to distract or locate shooters for ground based snipers can take them down...

    A simple fixed wing UAV with a gun armament would allow it to be used as a fighter aircraft of WWI or WWII, and use speed to move around the place fairly rapidly and shoot down these nuisance drones that can drop hand grenade like payloads and do some damage... it would also be useful against enemy suicide drones too.

    Otherwise you would need to use a more expensive product to deal with the threat like MANPADS or other light SAM like Pantsir or TOR...
    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 7964
    Points : 8052
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News - Page 35 Empty Re: UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:38 am


    UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News - Page 35 D19BC01X0AEip0E?format=jpg&name=medium
    Hole
    Hole

    Posts : 2081
    Points : 2081
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 43
    Location : Merkelland

    UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News - Page 35 Empty Re: UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News

    Post  Hole on Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:47 am

    GarryB wrote:I prefer manned helicopters, and think a better solution would be cheap light laser guided rockets to allow accurate powerful attacks from safer stand off distances... a drone helicopter is simply going to get hammered by small arms fire and RPGs and likely wont last very long at all in combat.

    It might be OK for police to distract or locate shooters for ground based snipers can take them down...

    A simple fixed wing UAV with a gun armament would allow it to be used as a fighter aircraft of WWI or WWII, and use speed to move around the place fairly rapidly and shoot down these nuisance drones that can drop hand grenade like payloads and do some damage... it would also be useful against enemy suicide drones too.

    Otherwise you would need to use a more expensive product to deal with the threat like MANPADS or other light SAM like Pantsir or TOR...

    So a 10 ton manned heli is good but a 7 ton unmanned heli not? unshaven
    GunshipDemocracy
    GunshipDemocracy

    Posts : 4914
    Points : 4952
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Age : 77
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News - Page 35 Empty Re: UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:23 pm

    Hole wrote:

    So a 10 ton manned heli is good but a 7 ton unmanned heli not? unshaven

    because in 80s there were no drones you know thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup
    Hole
    Hole

    Posts : 2081
    Points : 2081
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 43
    Location : Merkelland

    UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News - Page 35 Empty Re: UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News

    Post  Hole on Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:26 pm

    And? What has this to do with the usage of guns, cannons and unguided rockets from medium and large size helicopter drones?
    GunshipDemocracy
    GunshipDemocracy

    Posts : 4914
    Points : 4952
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Age : 77
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News - Page 35 Empty Re: UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:49 pm

    Hole wrote:And? What has this to do with the usage of guns, cannons and unguided rockets from medium and large size helicopter drones?

    in 8o0 there were no drone helos you know Very Happy
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 20796
    Points : 21350
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News - Page 35 Empty Re: UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News

    Post  GarryB on Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:50 am

    Because a drone helicopter is a sitting duck... look at the drones that have been shot down in the past... totally unaware and vulnerable flying level and straight and boom.

    A manned helicopter will operate within a team with proper support and will be rather more cautious and with better protection and redundancy in its design will more likely make it home after battle damage.

    I don't think a guy in a van playing a helicopter game... no matter how amazing the graphics are... can yet replace a real aircraft with a real pilot... and it seems to me that most countries still buying attack helos with people in them agree.
    GunshipDemocracy
    GunshipDemocracy

    Posts : 4914
    Points : 4952
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Age : 77
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News - Page 35 Empty Re: UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:42 am

    GarryB wrote:

    A manned helicopter will operate within a team with proper support and will be rather more cautious and with better protection and redundancy in its design will more likely make it home after battle damage.

    I don't think a guy in a van playing a helicopter game... no matter how amazing the graphics are... can yet replace a real aircraft with a real pilot... and it seems to me that most countries still buying attack helos with people in them agree.


    you of course can believe in anything but you clearly are not aware about drone progress including autonomous ones
    Hole
    Hole

    Posts : 2081
    Points : 2081
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 43
    Location : Merkelland

    UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News - Page 35 Empty Re: UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News

    Post  Hole on Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:50 am

    Why is a unmanned heli a sitting duck but not an manned one?

    And I´m not talking about a 200g quadcopter. All important parts of the new 3 ton or heavier heli drones will be armored and even with unguided rockets it will stay out of the reach of assault rifles and even RPG´s.
    Hole
    Hole

    Posts : 2081
    Points : 2081
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 43
    Location : Merkelland

    UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News - Page 35 Empty Re: UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News

    Post  Hole on Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:37 pm

    Random pics!

    UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News - Page 35 Orion-10
    UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News - Page 35 Orion-11
    Orion
    Hole
    Hole

    Posts : 2081
    Points : 2081
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 43
    Location : Merkelland

    UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News - Page 35 Empty Re: UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News

    Post  Hole on Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:38 pm

    UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News - Page 35 20180511
    Korsar
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 20796
    Points : 21350
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News - Page 35 Empty Re: UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News

    Post  GarryB on Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:56 am

    Why is a unmanned heli a sitting duck but not an manned one?

    And I´m not talking about a 200g quadcopter. All important parts of the new 3 ton or heavier heli drones will be armored and even with unguided rockets it will stay out of the reach of assault rifles and even RPG´s.

    If they are using unguided rockets then they wont be out of reach of assault rifles or ATGMs... Kornet-EM can hit a helo at 10km range remember...

    Plus who is going to put a multi million dollar radar and EO suite on an unmanned helo...

    If the Mi-28NM will have a 25km plus range air to ground missile why would you need a drone?

    Standoff range and long range sensors in the helo make rather more sense than making expendable drones.

    From memory that description of the 25km+ range missile seemed to suggest it used optical guidance with a datalink showing the missile view to impact likely allowing the operator to see it hit the target and presumably steer it in himself if he wanted... such a weapon would be awesome for a HALE or MALE UCAV...
    Hole
    Hole

    Posts : 2081
    Points : 2081
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 43
    Location : Merkelland

    UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News - Page 35 Empty Re: UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News

    Post  Hole on Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:05 am

    Manned helicopters are using mostly unguided rockets because nobody wants to waste the money a ATGM costs to kill two guys with a machine gun.

    But it is not about unguided rockets. Heli drones will use all kinds of weapons, including Vikhr-M or Hermes.
    GunshipDemocracy
    GunshipDemocracy

    Posts : 4914
    Points : 4952
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Age : 77
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News - Page 35 Empty Re: UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:49 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    If the Mi-28NM will have a 25km plus range air to ground missile why would you need a drone?

    Standoff range and long range sensors in the helo make rather more sense than making expendable drones.

    1) you loose helo you replace with new one no need to replace people an train them

    2) if every drone is expandable you have to assume that every Mi-28 is also expandable
    Hole
    Hole

    Posts : 2081
    Points : 2081
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 43
    Location : Merkelland

    UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News - Page 35 Empty Re: UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News

    Post  Hole on Fri Mar 22, 2019 4:26 pm

    I´m not against manned helis. But their main task is still CAS with FFAR´s and guns. For me it is unneccessary and dangerous to use manned machines doing this job. Use sophisticated helis with stand-off weapons against high-value targets (tanks and so on) and less sophisticated drones with guns, rockets and bombs against foot soldiers/terrorists.

    Sponsored content

    UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News - Page 35 Empty Re: UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:49 am