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    Future of Russian IFV/BMPT

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    TheArmenian
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    Re: Future of Russian IFV/BMPT

    Post  TheArmenian on Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:13 am

    Interesting points Garry.
    I still have my reservations about the sheer number of types of APCs and IFVs you believe may be fielded after 2015. Even the USSR did not have that many types. IMHO, there might be some consolidation somewhere just because of finances.

    Your arguments for the 57mm are convincing. How do you think an appropriate anti-tank round will perform against 21st century tanks? I doubt it will be able penetrate from the frontal arc. What do you think about shooting on the sides/rear? or should they rely solely on an outside mounted ATGM?

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    Re: Future of Russian IFV/BMPT

    Post  medo on Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:38 pm

    I agree with all that, but would add that because Russia has a relatively small population for a large country and its military forces will be relatively small in regard to the area it needs to protect, that mobility, both in terms of strategic mobility... in other words putting a couple of light and/or medium brigades in aircraft and flying them across the country at short notice will be a major requirement, and moving around within the theatre of operations will be very important too... so while these forces will be defensive they will actually also be suitable for world deployment and global domination... Smile (An added perk rather than an initial design consideration.) Smile

    I think Russians are realists and that they know they will not be able to airlift more than existing 4 VDV divisions and that other units will have to move around on roads and railroads. I'm sure this is one of the reasons, why Russia intensively build modern autoroads between European part of country and Far East and actually double trans-siberian railroad with BAM and other lines. Tracked vehicles will strategically move inside Russia by railroad, wheeled vehicles will drive on roads.

    VDV will for sure be the main quick reaction force, so it is surprising, that VDV is not getting much of new BMD-4/4M to rearm their units. They will have to hold their positions until other ground units come to take battle.

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    Re: Future of Russian IFV/BMPT

    Post  GarryB on Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:43 am

    I still have my reservations about the sheer number of types of APCs and IFVs you believe may be fielded after 2015. Even the USSR did not have that many types. IMHO, there might be some consolidation somewhere just because of finances.

    I agree the process will not be instant, but the theory is that each brigade has one chassis type so that all its vehicles share the same mobility and same parts, and similar levels of protection.

    Each Heavy brigade for example will need a lot of Armata chassis, and I think their plan for 2000 operational tanks and 4-5000 tanks in reserve will result in a force... initially of T-80s and T-90s and late model T-72s as the 2,000 operational tanks with the 4-5,000 reserve tanks mostly being upgraded T-72s. This means most of the other vehicles in support of those vehicles could be T-90 or T-72 based like the MSTA, the BTR-T, the BREM, etc etc.
    As Armata enters production they will make tanks, BMPs, artillery, air defence vehicles, armoured recovery vehicles etc etc based on the Armata chassis and when a complete brigade of vehicles is ready it will replace an old unit whose tanks can be scrapped if worn out or sent to the reserve and the oldest and most worn out vehicles there can be withdrawn or donated/sold.

    In the medium brigades they can use BMP-3s and BMP-2s and BMP-1s and BTR-80s and BTR-82s, but it is faster to produce lighter vehicles so I can see the light and medium brigades being upgraded faster. The BMPs will be replaced with the 25 ton Kurganets-25 and the BTRs will be replaced with the Kangaroo or Boomerang or whatever the wheeled replacement is called.

    The light brigades will have BRDMs and BTR-82s and similar vehicles but will be replaced by one chassis called Typhoon.

    The medium brigade "tank" would be the Sprut, but I rather suspect that they will only use Sprut for airborne forces for now and wait for the Kurganets-25, which will have better armour and optics and systems and a "tank" version will have a 125mm gun and a "tank" electronics suite. Hard to say whether they will make one or two versions as the Kangaroo or Boomerang might have a heavy gunned version too. If they adopt a 57/45mm gun for the new BMPs at all three levels it is possible the wheeled medium brigade "tank" vehicle and the wheeled light "tank" vehicle might have that weapon instead of a full power 125mm gun.

    Speed will be important for these lighter vehicles but fire power will be important too.

    Your arguments for the 57mm are convincing. How do you think an appropriate anti-tank round will perform against 21st century tanks? I doubt it will be able penetrate from the frontal arc. What do you think about shooting on the sides/rear? or should they rely solely on an outside mounted ATGM?

    Technically they have always relied on missiles for anti tank performance, with the 73mm gun of the BMP-1 an emergency choice because of the close range gap in the AT-3 Saggers engagement envelope. Once the AT-4/-5 launcher had been retrofitted to the BMP-1 that gap was closed and the 73mm gun was simply used for its HE power... which wasn't totally amazing as its ammo was based on ammo for the SPG-9 recoilless rifle... externally it looked very similar to an RPG-7 rocket.
    The 100mm rifled gun of the BMP-3 is significantly more effective and powerful, but even when firing guided missiles its effect on frontal armour of MBTs is marginal.

    Of course the anti tank capacity of the BMP series is largely for self defence... BMP commanders should never go looking for enemy tanks.


    I think Russians are realists and that they know they will not be able to airlift more than existing 4 VDV divisions and that other units will have to move around on roads and railroads. I'm sure this is one of the reasons, why Russia intensively build modern autoroads between European part of country and Far East and actually double trans-siberian railroad with BAM and other lines. Tracked vehicles will strategically move inside Russia by railroad, wheeled vehicles will drive on roads.

    Personally I would like to see the VDV get their own aircraft as their deployment requirements mean they need to be able to be dropped pretty much anywhere, including the middle of no where.

    For moving forces between military districts then air transport makes sense, and moves to put the An-124 back into production and to produce Il-476s, AND to buy An-70s suggests to me that they want to be able to move brigades between military districts by air.

    As you point out however improvements in roads and rail infrastructure is also very important as it offers options and within military districts certainly heavy brigades will be better moved on rail than air, but light and medium forces will obviously have the best mobility.

    One would assume that each military district will have allocated the forces needed to deal with any problems that might come up in their region, but there will be some situations where more force are needed. In those extreme cases forces from outside that district will need to be moved in, and likely moved in quickly. Each district will have its own VDV forces most likely, and being elite and quick to move other VDV forces from other districts might be moved in to support them, but the whole point of the restructure is to get rid of the low readiness units that would take a month or more to mobilise and be equipped with all high readiness forces that are able to react at short notice and to move to where they are needed quickly.

    For 90% of issues the 4 military districts will have enough resources and men to deal with the problem. The ability to move resources around for that other 10% of the time and for mobility within the district means the forces will need mobility and speed... both strategic and theatre... mostly for medium and light brigades of course.

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    Re: Future of Russian IFV/BMPT

    Post  medo on Fri Oct 28, 2011 8:48 pm

    Anyone know, which vehicle will replace BRDM as light 4x4 scout vehicle? Vodnik could be good one, specially because it could swim, but I don't know if it is in production.


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    Re: Future of Russian IFV/BMPT

    Post  GarryB on Sat Oct 29, 2011 1:45 am

    Vodnik, or Tigr-M, or Volk, or even the BPM-97 are certainly options right now, and in the future a short model Typhoon could possibly do the job as well.

    Soviet practise was to include BMP-2s and Tanks in their recon units in case they got too close to the enemy, so it could pretty much include anything...

    Imagine two Tigr-Ms driving along a track just below the ridge of a hill... one Tigr-M turns off track and moves to the top to get a clear view at the plain beyond and notes a number of enemy vehicles in a convoy about 6km away and it withdraws back till only an optronic mast is visible. The second Tigr-M turns off the track and moves to the ridge and two quad launchers for Kornet-EM missiles elevate and launch two missiles etc etc...

    Or they mark the position and direction of the convoy as it approaches a bridge... just as the first vehicle reaches the end of the bridge it is hit by a Kornet-EM from 7km away, and then the top attack submunitions start falling from a Tornado battery 90km away with their aim point centred on the far side of the bridge.

    A flight of Mi-28Ns are on their way to clean up any survivors and two flights of Su-35s are operating in the airspace giving top cover for the ground forces.

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    Re: Future of Russian IFV/BMPT

    Post  TheArmenian on Sat Oct 29, 2011 3:10 pm

    Nice scenario Garry Very Happy

    As much as I like them, there is one problem with the Tigr, Volk, Vodnik et al.: They are not amphibious like the good old BRDM-2.

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    Re: Future of Russian IFV/BMPT

    Post  GarryB on Sun Oct 30, 2011 1:57 am

    The Vodnik has a water displacing hull, so it really can only ford water barriers and is powered in the water by its wheels... not really good enough for a recon vehicle.

    I guess this might be the solution:

    In Russia, developed a unified platform for armoured combat

    MOSCOW, October 26. (ARMS-TASS). In Russia, for the rearmament of the army is developing a unified platform for military wheeled armored vehicles, medium and heavy tanks, the new generation, said korr.ARMS-TASS General Director of "Military-Industrial Company" / MIC / Dmitry Galkin at "Interpolitech 2011."

    Work on the new platform performs a part of the MIC Arzamas Engineering Plant. "Right now, the company's activities focus on development and design work to establish a combat wheeled platforms, ordered the Ministry of Defence - said Galkin. - This is a fighting machine the next generation."

    According to him, the new machine "is not similar to any modern APC." "This is not an APC. We call it" combat wheeled vehicle, "because at its base will be created as APCs and IFVs, and a tank or a heavy gun," - said the head of the MIC.

    He explained that under the "modernization and upgrading the Russian Armed Forces, the Defense Ministry has ordered while three types of development projects: on wheeled vehicles - the company MIC, the average caterpillar -" Kurgan "and the heavy caterpillar -" Uralvagonzavod. "At the same time the Ministry of tasked to ensure maximum unification of all three cars.

    "All of these machines can be unambiguously standardized by CICS (onboard information control system), aiming systems, communication systems, combat modules", - informed the head of the MIC. Two prototypes were wheeled vehicles to be built by 2013, he said.

    Galkin said that under the "permitted capacity", plan to use advanced foreign experience in this field. "We are now open in this respect, and where we allow the defense and national security, we use those developments that exist in the world" - he said.

    The head of the company said that implemented development projects included in the state armaments program through 2020, created a new generation of armored vehicles will be supplied to the army under the program.


    "In Russia, for the rearmament of the army is developing a unified platform for military wheeled armored vehicles, medium and heavy tanks, the new generation, said korr.ARMS-TASS General Director of "Military-Industrial Company" / MIC / Dmitry Galkin at "Interpolitech 2011."

    So that means to me that there will be a military wheeled armoured vehicle for light and medium, and 'tanks' for medium and heavy... in this case tanks simply referring to tracked vehicles.

    "According to him, the new machine "is not similar to any modern APC." "This is not an APC. We call it" combat wheeled vehicle, "because at its base will be created as APCs and IFVs, and a tank or a heavy gun," - said the head of the MIC."

    So the Kangaroo/Boomerang will not just be a 25 ton amphibious APC, it will be an APC AND IFV AND a tank of gun armed fire support vehicle... this suggests a troop carrier version (BTR) and a more heavily armed IFV version (BMP/BTR-90) like vehicle.

    This sounds a little strange as the Kurganets-25 is a 25 ton amphibious vehicle for the same units, but I think they will likely have tracked and wheeled versions of all vehicle types where possible in the medium brigades as in the middle of Siberia the ground conditions will mean the whole medium brigade will be tracked (kurganets-25 based), while in western Russia the better roads means wheeled vehicles can dominate as they are cheaper to buy and operate and are much faster when operating on roads.

    "He explained that under the "modernization and upgrading the Russian Armed Forces, the Defense Ministry has ordered while three types of development projects: on wheeled vehicles - the company MIC, the average caterpillar -" Kurgan "and the heavy caterpillar -" Uralvagonzavod. "At the same time the Ministry of tasked to ensure maximum unification of all three cars."

    So MIC will make the medium wheeled vehicles (Boomerang/Kangaroo, and also the light the Typhoon), the medium Kurganets-25 and Heavy Armata will be developed and made at UVZ.

    On another thread there was posted a board showing engines for light wheeled vehicles and it included the fact that 350-450hp engines would be used with the Typhoon light wheeled vehicles and that the lighter engines would be used on 4 wheeled Typhoons and the larger 450hp engines on a 6 wheeled Typhoon...

    Perhaps that is your answer... the Typhoons will likely be amphibious and the 4 wheel model will be the BRDM equivalent, while the 6 wheel will be the troop transport (APC/IFV), direct fire support (Tank), ATGM carrier, air defence vehicle (with 8 ready to fire MANPADS and HMGs as used in the Phoenix turret on the Vodnik?), etc etc.

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    Re: Future of Russian IFV/BMPT

    Post  GarryB on Sun Oct 30, 2011 2:34 am

    "All of these machines can be unambiguously standardized by CICS (onboard information control system), aiming systems, communication systems, combat modules", - informed the head of the MIC.

    So the Armata "tank" and the Kurganets-25 and Boomerang/Kangaroo "medium tank"/gun platform and the Typhoon gun platform will have standardised "avionics".

    Keep in mind that the medium (kurganets-25 and Boomerang/Kangaroo) vehicles, at 25 tons for the standard vehicle the tank version could be 35-40 tons... remember the Armata chassis is something like 40-65 tons payload vehicles for the different versions with different roles.

    Also be aware that the 2S23 Sprut light tank/gun support vehicle was an 18 ton vehicle with a full power 125mm gun with slightly longer recoil distance to reduce recoil.

    Two prototypes were wheeled vehicles to be built by 2013, he said.

    So if you see a photo of a real Boomerang/Kangaroo before then it is BS or a mockup.

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    Re: Future of Russian IFV/BMPT

    Post  medo on Sun Oct 30, 2011 12:47 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:Nice scenario Garry Very Happy

    As much as I like them, there is one problem with the Tigr, Volk, Vodnik et al.: They are not amphibious like the good old BRDM-2.

    Actually Vodnik is amphibious, that is why I thought it could be BRDM replacement. Also Vodnik is modular design, so it could have for different tasks different equipment.

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    Re: Future of Russian IFV/BMPT

    Post  GarryB on Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:43 am

    Actually Vodnik is amphibious, that is why I thought it could be BRDM replacement. Also Vodnik is modular design, so it could have for different tasks different equipment.

    I thought the Vodnik was amphibious too, but looking up its specs it says it has a "water displacing hull", and has a fording limit of 1.4 metres.

    Considering it has a modular design, I would think an amphibious hull version equipped for the armoured recon mission would make a lot of sense, but despite mention of its modular design I have never seen a chart showing the options and set ups possible.

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    Re: Future of Russian IFV/BMPT

    Post  GarryB on Thu Nov 03, 2011 11:05 pm

    In this article:

    http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20111103/168385053.html

    Notice the photo?

    Here it is for those that can't be bothered to click the link:



    Here is a Vodnik leading a formation of TOPOL-M ICBM launch vehicles to a test launch.

    This proves the Vodnik is clearly in service with the Space forces as a patrol/convoy escort vehicle...

    Obviously there would be little need for an amphibious vehicle for such a role as there is no way a TOPOL-M launch vehicle would be able to follow an amphibious vehicle through water obstacles.

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    Re: Future of Russian IFV/BMPT

    Post  GarryB on Fri Nov 04, 2011 12:01 am

    It is important to note that despite the Kamaz Tafun armoured truck... which looks pretty cool BTW, the Typhoon we are talking about will be designed and built by MIC Arzamas Engineering Plant.

    We know from a poster Cyberspec posted of engines that the Typhoon will have a range of engines from 350-450hp and that the vehicle itself will come in two base models with 4 and 6 wheels respectively.

    BTW regarding the suggestion of a 76mm gun I thought this might be interesting:



    A BTR-60 with an 85mm gun.

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    Re: Future of Russian IFV/BMPT

    Post  GarryB on Fri Nov 04, 2011 1:41 am

    A translation from the Niistali page:

    In June, completed phase of the prototype of a new family of armored multi-purpose army, known under the code "Typhoon". The main difference between the new family of analogues, both domestic and foreign design - a stuffy high level of protection. It surpasses even those requirements that are placed in front of foreign military today with his heavy armored army vehicles for general purposes.

    Armored protection of the family "Typhoon", which was worked out by experts and research institutes created Steel, incorporated many solutions that are used for the first time. Integrated ceramic armor to protect the basic projection machines, new solutions for mine protection, including minozaschischennye chairs for the crew and troops, glazing protection from large-caliber firearms, the new brand of armor steels are still the best armored steel in the world - just some new items Protection, which were first used here.

    "It is encouraging that domestic enterprises are beginning to produce armor materials, including ceramics, in no way inferior to the best world analogues. These materials, we can safely use in the construction and protection structures, and they allow us to meet even these stringent requirements for the protection that had been raised in relation to the military machines of the family "Typhoon" - said the President of JSC "Research Institute of Steel", Director of Science, Academy of Rara, Ph.D., professor Valery Grigoryan Armenakovich.

    Unlike previous attempts at the Russian Defense Ministry to create a highly protected armored vehicle with high performance based on the chassis serial commercial vehicles, and did not continue, a new development - a family of military armored multi-purpose "Typhoon", based on a special chassis designed for those loads experienced in armored combat missions.

    source: http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.niistali.ru%2F&sl=&tl=en

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    Re: Future of Russian IFV/BMPT

    Post  medo on Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:18 pm

    Nice to see, that Vodniks are in use. Maybe they could replace the turret with more modern one, like from BTR-82 with 14,5 mm machine gun.

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    Re: Future of Russian IFV/BMPT

    Post  GarryB on Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:34 pm

    They probably have thousands of the old turrets from older vehicles... it is probably just cheaper to use them.

    For escorting Space forces vehicles it is probably actually an FSB vehicle I guess.

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    Re: Future of Russian IFV/BMPT

    Post  TheArmenian on Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:00 am


    Vodnik has been in service for a few years with at least one unit in the Caucasus. But I don't think new ones have been ordered for a while.

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    Re: Future of Russian IFV/BMPT

    Post  medo on Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:45 pm

    How did Vodnik perform in Chechnya? There must be some reasons why army is no more interested in Vodnik.

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    Re: Future of Russian IFV/BMPT

    Post  Rpg type 7v on Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:38 pm

    5 man crew but 2 men are commanding granade launchers position?? not much advantage there. better 3 man crew with 5-6 transported troops in the rear (something ukranians did with their t-80 tank-modification). cv-90 uses 120mm gun as optional weapon.http://www.military-today.com/tanks/cv90120t_l3.jpg

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    Re: Future of Russian IFV/BMPT

    Post  GarryB on Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:04 pm

    The Israelis seem to have come to the conclusion that troops in a tank are not such a good idea in combat after all.

    It was much more useful to use that extra space for more ammo.

    For the BMPT its purpose is to support tanks in places where BMP level armoured vehicles and infantry are vulnerable.

    As such the idea of bow gunners is to create a situation where the vehicle can deal with multiple threats at once... ideally one each for the bow gunners and one for the turret.

    Personally I think it could be better executed with proper external gun positions that have a decent traverse (say 200 degrees plus to the front and sides). Grenade launchers offer good fire power and range in a fairly compact weapon, though ammo supply is limited to a minutes worth of ammo.

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    Re: Future of Russian IFV/BMPT

    Post  Rpg type 7v on Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:23 pm

    well this all started because you wanted to add anti-aircraft capability and guided shells to bmpt, i agree every fighting vehicle should be able to deal with as many battlefield situations as it can ,and as much as it can, but lets not overload it... so its still a balancing issue and thats why i said its work in progress first...and may stay like that for a long time.for example if you add small UAVs at the place of those clumsy launchers , you add a new crewmember to the mix ,to control and observe trough them ,that needs armor new internal arangements etc... so who knows.

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    Re: Future of Russian IFV/BMPT

    Post  medo on Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:58 am

    well this all started because you wanted to add anti-aircraft capability and guided shells to bmpt


    Actually the opposite is true. BMPT was created to replace anti-aircraft guns from ground combat, because they are expensive, in small numbers and with weak armor. BMPT could do air defense job in self defense, but otherwise it is build for ground fightings. But you are correct, for replacing AA guns, you build something similar to them.

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    Re: Future of Russian IFV/BMPT

    Post  GarryB on Sat Nov 12, 2011 1:22 pm

    well this all started because you wanted to add anti-aircraft capability and guided shells to bmpt,

    Not really, remember I personally have no real say in the design requirements and the design requirements included the demand for some anti aircraft self defence capability... and believe it or not on the BMPT that is actually the ATAKA missiles, because they can hit UAVs and helos to 5-6km range whereas the 30mm cannon can only be effective against aircraft out to 4km or so... plus it expends an enormous amount of 30mm rounds to hit one target, so they will most likely use ATAKA.

    As Medo points out the previous "firepower" vehicle they used were Shilkas or Tunguskas, and before that it was BTR-40s and BTR-152s with twin HMG (14.5mm) or cannon (23mm)... and before that it was direct fire artillery like the ISU-122.

    When you get to a building that is offering fierce resistance a 125mm shell will damage it, but a burst of 200 x 30mm cannon shells is devastating in one sudden burst.

    I am suggesting precision and HE power replace pure volume, so a 100mm shell from a rifled barrel is quite accurate already... a laser guided 57mm cannon shell has a lot less HE power but with laser guided shells you can put the round precisely where it will have the most effect.

    The 100mm gun from the BMP-3 is already in service and the ammo is compact and effective.

    The 57mm gun is being considered for the BMP-4 or whatever it might be called, but its shells are quite enormous as it is a high velocity round.

    A telescoped case round would make the whole round much more compact, but would be more expensive to develop from scratch.

    There is reportedly a 45mm gun in development that might even be used by CAS aircraft and on naval vessels, but a new 57mm round could be adapted the same ways too... the added shell capacity making guided rounds very attractive.

    Imagine for example replacing the 30mm gun turrets on naval vessels with 57mm gun turrets firing streams of laser guided shells at incoming threats... a burst of 4-8 rounds per target for a very high kill probability...

    Plus the larger calibre will be more use in other roles including against land, sea and air targets.

    thats why i said its work in progress first...and may stay like that for a long time.

    I completely agree there... I rather think they are not really sure exactly what they want.

    I would think the cheapest and simplest way to improve what they have at the moment is to replace the bow gun positions with proper turrets with decent arcs of fire and elevation to make them more independent of where the vehicle is facing.
    Base it on the BMO vehicle as it has more internal space.
    I like the low profile turret with the turret crew below the turret ring for protection, but I would replace the two 2A42 cannon with a single GSh-30K as used on the Hind... it has longer barrels than the gun used on the Su-25 and a lower rate of fire (2,000rpm high and 350rpm low vs 3,000 for the GSh-30) and the longer barrels give it the higher muzzle velocity of 940m/s with standard rounds.
    The extra weight of 126kgs shouldn't be too important as the 2A42 weighs 115kg each.

    I would think updating the missiles would be a good move... take off the 4 ATAKAs and perhaps go for 8 Kornet-EM missiles.

    Round it all off by adding a turret mounted 40mm auto grenade launcher Balkan and make the hull mounted turret weapons a PKT and Balkan so the bow gunners can fire either a 7.62mm MG round or a 40mm grenade at the target.

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    Re: Future of Russian IFV/BMPT

    Post  GarryB on Sat Nov 12, 2011 1:29 pm

    I would also point out that the BMPT will likely also be used to protect convoys... something they often used Shilkas and Tunguskas for and also simply ZU-23 towed anti aircraft guns on the back of trucks were found to be effective in dealing with attacks on convoys.

    For such a role lots of MGs and grenade launchers and a twin barrel 30mm cannon would be ideal fire power to beat off an attack.

    The other role is to protect tanks in "bad" tank country... urban environments is one, but hedgerows, or places where enemy infantry can get close to your tanks.

    Tanks have excellent long range visibility and fire power but up close their view is poor and their armament is even worse because of its limited ability to elevate both the main gun and the coaxial MG.

    Note some French tanks tried to solve that problem and the problem of enemy attack helos by putting 20mm cannons next to the main gun in a special mount that allowed them to elevate higher and lower than the main gun.

    They didn't continue the tradition with Leclerc.

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    Re: Future of Russian IFV/BMPT

    Post  Rpg type 7v on Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:19 pm

    medo wrote:
    well this all started because you wanted to add anti-aircraft capability and guided shells to bmpt


    Actually the opposite is true. BMPT was created to replace anti-aircraft guns from ground combat, because they are expensive, in small numbers and with weak armor. BMPT could do air defense job in self defense, but otherwise it is build for ground fightings. But you are correct, for replacing AA guns, you build something similar to them.
    oh but i though russian land army already had plenty of those?! They seem to invest alot into it.
    Then ok you can put top turret from tunguska on t-72 modification with additional armour, frontal engine ,and rear infantry compartment.

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    Re: Future of Russian IFV/BMPT

    Post  GarryB on Wed Nov 16, 2011 1:24 am

    Then ok you can put top turret from tunguska on t-72 modification with additional armour, frontal engine ,and rear infantry compartment.

    In a way that is what the BMPT is.

    It is the 30mm cannon firepower of two BMP-2s but with protection levels of a tank.

    It can go where tanks go but can engage targets that tanks can't elevate their main guns to engage.

    Giving it 2,500rpm 2A38M twin barrel guns of the Tunguska will mean they will need much more ammo storage and the difference on ground targets between 10-12 shells per second and 30-40 shells per second is not really that great in terms of effect on target.

    In terms of rate of ammo usage however the difference is significant.

    My suggestion of replacing the two 2A42 cannons with a single twin barrel GSh-30K would allow a 2,000rpm rate of fire if needed, but its low rate of 300-400rpm would be useful against most ordinary ground targets with a lighter weapon (126kgs vs 115kgx2) would not be a huge change, though i do admit that adding a 100mm 2A70 rifled medium pressure gun in an external mount is a more significant step... I just think 100mm HE shells are cheaper than missiles and would offer good accuracy and a heavy punch to target in awkward locations... like an ATGM position half way up a building in an urban area.

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    Re: Future of Russian IFV/BMPT

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