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    BMPT programme

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    0nillie0

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    Re: BMPT programme

    Post  0nillie0 on Tue Mar 27, 2018 11:16 am

    The Object 781 is in many ways superior in firepower and overall design to the BMPT designed by UKBTM, which is basically the present day BMPT.  It is really an impressive machine at the core.

    The BMPT version that has recently been adopted in limited numbers simply does not match it in terms of raw firepower at least.
    Protection wise, i would like to see some more internal footage of the current BMPT before passing judgment. Since it is likely to be featured in the next Victory Parade, hopefully we will get some in depth footage soon.

    Like GarryB, my main beef with the current version is that they went with dual 2A42's, even tho they offer 0 surplus value compared to a single 2A42 with dual feed capability. As far as i have been able to figure out (and i really hope somebody can correct me on this, i really do), the 2A42's are currently both single fed, and use different types of ammo by default. At range, it is not practical to fire both weapons at the same target, as the different ammo types will have differing ballistics. So you can really only use one weapon for one target, unless you use the same ammo in both guns. But then you may not have the right round for the right target available when it counts...

    The double 2A42 to me is basically an expensive publicity stunt to make the vehicle look more badass, unless somebody can give me some references that show both guns are actually capable of dual feeding.
    Even if that is possible, the fact remains that currently the BMPT can only engage 2 sectors simultaneously. Has the battlefield changed that much since Chechnya, that this is no longer an issue?

    These are problems that did not exist for Object 781, which additionally could engage 2 separate targets simultaneously with its 30mm's , with select feed capability (!!!)...

    kopyo-21

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    Re: BMPT programme

    Post  kopyo-21 on Tue Mar 27, 2018 11:56 am

    That is correct the 2A42 gun on the current BMPT is actually single feeding and 2 guns fire in turn instead fire simultaneously. 2 guns with single feeding in reality are as powerfull as 1 gun with dual feeding.

    I think they should consider to replace 2a42 guns by 2a72 guns that is smaller and mor compact to reserve more space for 2 belted ammunitions of dual feeding being set up. The ROF of 2 2A72 gun are totally 660-900 rpm and little bit faster than 1 2A42 gun does (550-800 rpm) while better gun's survivability. 2 gun firing at the same time also cause no spinning on the turret so the firing accuracy is improved.

    The rear PKT 7.62mm gun turret of BMPT object 781
    https://topwar.ru/120167-v-rossii-vosstanovyat-dlya-muzeya-obekt-787-gadyuku.html

    PS: I wonder why they have not recovered the BMPT object 782 and displayed it in house like they do with the object 781?
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    GarryB

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    Re: BMPT programme

    Post  GarryB on Tue Mar 27, 2018 11:12 pm



    Wow.... that is so cool... waist hull gun positions...


    In the first photo, we can see clearly there are two belted ammunition feeds in the 30/40mm grenade launcher position. The first one is obviously for AGL, the second one is for 7.62mm gun that paired with AGL as described in its specification??? However if we see the second photo, where is the 7.62mm gun installed?

    There do seem to be two belt feeds for different sized ammo but there is also an extra gun position on the hull side behind the turret, so the four gun mounts (ie 2 PKT and likely two 30mm grenade launchers) are separate installations.

    The specifications of BMPT object 781. This is very different to what many sources described about the project. Crews of 7 including 5 gunners, 1 commander and 1 driver. Just wonder where was the commander's compartment? Did he seat between 2 gunners of 2A72 or 2 gunners of Ags-17 and PKT?

    I suspect looking at the image I reposted above the layout is driver front and centre with one gunner on each side of him... so three crew in front of the turret, the commander and central gunner in the turret and one further gunner operating the waist gun positions behind the turret in front of the engine... that is a total of 6 crew... so maybe the waist guns have one crewman each so two gunners behind the turret, two crew in the turret and three crew in front of the turret... two in the turret and 5 in the hull.

    Like GarryB, my main beef with the current version is that they went with dual 2A42's, even tho they offer 0 surplus value compared to a single 2A42 with dual feed capability. As far as i have been able to figure out (and i really hope somebody can correct me on this, i really do), the 2A42's are currently both single fed, and use different types of ammo by default. At range, it is not practical to fire both weapons at the same target, as the different ammo types will have differing ballistics. So you can really only use one weapon for one target, unless you use the same ammo in both guns. But then you may not have the right round for the right target available when it counts...

    AFAIK they do have armour piercing ammo and ballistics matched HEI ammo... the problem is that the AP ammo is not their most potent type... it is weight and velocity limited to match the HEI ammo so both rounds hit the same target with the same aim point.

    The only advantage of mounting two 2A42 cannon is increased rate of fire and if you are going to fire them together then you are limited to the lower performing AP ammo to keep all the rounds on target.

    If that is the case then obviously a much better solution is to have one belt of ammo with mixed round types in a single feed setup with a GSh-30K as fitted to the model Hind with the fixed twin 30mm cannon mounted on its side.... much higher rate of fire (you don't have to fire continuously... set bursts are fine... 5-10-20-30 or whatever round bursts depending on the target).

    Ironically the twin 30mm gun is actually lighter than two 2A42s as well, though I suspect the 2A42 might be more resistant to dust and more reliable.

    The double 2A42 to me is basically an expensive publicity stunt to make the vehicle look more badass, unless somebody can give me some references that show both guns are actually capable of dual feeding.

    I rather suspect commonality and reliability and cost won out over anything more exotic... weight is not really an issue here.

    The ROF of 2 2A72 gun are totally 660-900 rpm and little bit faster than 1 2A42 gun does (550-800 rpm) while better gun's survivability. 2 gun firing at the same time also cause no spinning on the turret so the firing accuracy is improved.

    I think they went for ROF so that is probably why they went for two 2A42s... I don't think they intend for this vehicle to ever fire one gun only, and even if they did they are near the centre, so any rotational forces are too much of a tangent to the actual rotational axis of the turret to make any difference.

    Note with the improved more powerful 2A80 100mm rounds they had problems with the BMP-3... the new 7km ranged 100mm HE rounds increased the stress on the turret because it was asymmetric, but that was fixed too... basically it wasn't designed for that sort of recoil force, but modifications allowed it to be used that way.

    kopyo-21

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    Re: BMPT programme

    Post  kopyo-21 on Tue Mar 27, 2018 11:31 pm



    Hi Garry,

    Looking at this photo, I suspect the seating layout should be in 4 layers. The driver seats on the first, 2 AGL/PKT gunners and commander seat on the second, 2 2A72 gunners seat on the third and the rear PKT machine gunner seats on the last.
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    0nillie0

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    Re: BMPT programme

    Post  0nillie0 on Wed Mar 28, 2018 8:35 am

    GarryB wrote:

    commonality and reliability and cost.


    That is probably the best description of the BMPT i have read so far.

    I cant help but wonder what could be, if they looked at some of the cannons in use with the Air Force. IMHO there is much potential there for such a type of vehicle  :

    - compact weapons = easier to integrate multiple weapons = engage more threats simultaneously. More suitable for engaging at higher elevations also due to smaller dimensions.
    - high volume of fire = longer combat endurance, better suppression against infantry, more effective against air targets such as UAV's or loitering munitions.

    It can be noted that high rate of fire weapons, though typically fired in bursts, are probably more prone to malfunctions during prolonged usage....

    IMHO : If they are going to build many BMPT's, than the vehicle as it is now makes perfect sense. If they are going to use only limited numbers, i feel they could have gone a different path.
    On the other hand, with the Armata family around the corner, i don't see that much future for the current BMPT, and it probably does not make much sense to spend a lot of money or complicate logistics on a limited number of vehicles
    either.

    Looking at the image below, it would be logical to develop armement modules which are placed at the location of the ATGM launchers. Probably we will see Kornet Anti tank modules instead of ATAKA



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    Hole

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    Re: BMPT programme

    Post  Hole on Wed Mar 28, 2018 1:54 pm

    The Army rejects Air Force weapons, because they are more complex. The YakB-12,7 was quiet unreliabale in Afghanistan. That´s why the Mi-28 and Ka-52 use Army weapons.
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    GarryB

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    Re: BMPT programme

    Post  GarryB on Thu Mar 29, 2018 1:08 am

    I cant help but wonder what could be, if they looked at some of the cannons in use with the Air Force. IMHO there is much potential there for such a type of vehicle :

    - compact weapons = easier to integrate multiple weapons = engage more threats simultaneously. More suitable for engaging at higher elevations also due to smaller dimensions.
    - high volume of fire = longer combat endurance, better suppression against infantry, more effective against air targets such as UAV's or loitering munitions.

    One of the reasons I never believed the western mantra that the Soviets only copied and had no talent of their own... just looking at the performance of their guns... aviation and small arms suggests they really did know what they were doing... it just didn't always meet with western standards... which are mostly screwed up anyway... I hear Americans talk about a lack of accuracy of AKs and look at their demands for accuracy of their assault rifles and then look at videos posted on the internet in Afghanistan... it was the same with artillery and air power... in the Afghan Soviet war the west always derided the Soviets for resorting to air attacks to deal with insurgents that always ended up taking out a village... and then I see high tech NATO doing exactly the same...

    Ahh well.

    The main problem is that most of those aviation weapons use aircraft designed 30x165mm rounds which are electric fired, while Army rounds in the same calibre 30x165mm use percussion... and changing the ammo to the other type also means altering the weapon to the different ammo too.

    It can be noted that high rate of fire weapons, though typically fired in bursts, are probably more prone to malfunctions during prolonged usage....

    Well documented cases of the 2A7 running out of control in the early air cooled version... but later models with water cooling solved those issues. the first 12.7mm 4 barrel gatling on the Hind also overheated when a full ammo load was fired in one burst but the later model that added 15kgs or so also solved that problem too.

    IMHO : If they are going to build many BMPT's, than the vehicle as it is now makes perfect sense. If they are going to use only limited numbers, i feel they could have gone a different path.
    On the other hand, with the Armata family around the corner, i don't see that much future for the current BMPT, and it probably does not make much sense to spend a lot of money or complicate logistics on a limited number of vehicles
    either.

    Exactly... for older forces using T series tanks and BMPs and BTRs, then they do make sense, though pretty shortly I would think a 57mm grenade launcher with a shit load of ammo would be quite devastating enough on its own...

    Looking at the image below, it would be logical to develop armement modules which are placed at the location of the ATGM launchers. Probably we will see Kornet Anti tank modules instead of ATAKA

    True and equally interesting are the mini ATGMs called Bulat that seem to carry 6 or more missiles per mini retractable missile pod on the new 30mm turrets for APCs/IFVs. The penetration performance is likely reduced and shorter ranges likely the goal for these mini missiles but then accuracy can make up for smaller payloads on the many lighter vehicles around the place.

    The Army rejects Air Force weapons, because they are more complex. The YakB-12,7 was quiet unreliabale in Afghanistan. That´s why the Mi-28 and Ka-52 use Army weapons.

    Not sure where you heard that... the YakB-12.7 was replaced by the upgraded YakBYu-12.7 because the former overheated firing off a full ammo load in one burst.... it only weighed 45kgs. The latter weapon weighed 65kgs and could fire continuously the entire load of ammo without overheating.

    their main problem was that the enemy started firing back with heavier calibres, like 14.5mm and 23mm calibre weapons that outranged the 12.7mm.

    They wanted to replace it with a longer ranged weapon and they ended up using a 30mm twin barrel gun scabbed onto the side of the fuselage, but its recoil was enormous so it could not be put into a chin turret where they wanted it.

    They wanted a twin barrel 23mm gun in a chin turret but they couldn't get it right for quite some time... it wasn't till the 1990s or so when they got a working 23mm gun in a chin turret on a Hind in service.

    Neither the 23mm GSh-23 nor the GSh-30K used on the Hinds were army weapons.

    The 2A42 was used on the Mi-28 family and the Ka-50/52 family, and also the Ka-29 in some variants.

    It will be interesting to compare combat experience in Syria with the Hind using the 23mm and 30mm, and the Mi-28 using the 30mm ammo.

    Note the 23mm rounds in the Hind are very popular in 23mm gunpods in the Russian and Soviet military on fixed wing aircraft, helicopters, and other platforms (including patrol aircraft like the An-72P)
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    George1

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    Re: BMPT programme

    Post  George1 on Thu Mar 29, 2018 8:16 am

    Seems approx. 5 BMPT armored fighting vehicles were loaded onto flatcars and dispatched for transfer to the Russian MoD yesterday (28.03.18)

    https://twitter.com/Russian_Defence/status/979309165536522241
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    George1

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    Re: BMPT programme

    Post  George1 on Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:47 pm

    BMPT during Alabino rehearsal:Most prob.from 28.3.18 dispatched batch,now w/ add-on armour & 4x Ataka T(9M120)

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    George1

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    Re: BMPT programme

    Post  George1 on Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:04 pm

    BMPT Tank Support Vehicles at the rehearsal of the Victory Day Parade in Alabino

    April 6, 2018 in the Moscow region near Alabino training military parade of Victory, which will be held May 9, 2018 on Red Square in Moscow. Among other things, the first military equipment for the BMPT tanks supported by the Russian Ministry of Defense took part in the training.



    It should be reminded that on August 24, 2017, the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation and the Scientific Production Corporation Uralvagonzavod JSC signed a contract for the delivery of 12 BMPT vehicles during the Third International Military Technical Forum "Army-2017" in 2018. The first manufactured under this contract The BMPT was demonstrated by NPK Uralvagonzavod in March 2018.





    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3150619.html
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    George1

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    Re: BMPT programme

    Post  George1 on Mon Apr 09, 2018 3:40 pm

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    flamming_python

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    Re: BMPT programme

    Post  flamming_python on Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:33 pm

    FFS; will they stop bringing new systems out on the basis of legacy platforms such as the T-72 chassis?
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    AlfaT8

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    Re: BMPT programme

    Post  AlfaT8 on Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:24 pm

    flamming_python wrote:FFS; will they stop bringing new systems out on the basis of legacy platforms such as the T-72 chassis?


    Yes, they should use the T-90 chassis, ......wait.
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    GarryB

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    Re: BMPT programme

    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:08 pm

    It is better to use new chassis for new vehicles, but if they have a requirement that an old chassis can meet and there are lots of them then why not use them?

    Just like the 2S1 becoming the 2S34... if you have the old vehicles and plenty of spares and support equipment, why not put a new gun on it and eliminate the 122mm calibre and gun from the inventory and get a new vehicle with improved performance and flexibility?
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    Hole

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    Re: BMPT programme

    Post  Hole on Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:00 am

    The german Keiler (mine clearance vehicle) uses the chassis of the M48!
    They had a lot of Leo 1´s standind around but they choose an even older chassis. Because it´s cheaper.
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    George1

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    Re: BMPT programme

    Post  George1 on Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:53 pm

    Russia’s top brass accepts Terminator tank support combat vehicles for service

    The vehicle is armed with two 30mm guns, a large-caliber machine-gun and the Ataka-T anti-tank system

    MOSCOW, April 13. /TASS/. Russia’s Defense Ministry has accepted Terminator tank support combat vehicles for service and started their serial deliveries to the troops, Uralvagonzavod defense manufacturer reported on Friday.

    "The tank support combat vehicle dubbed the Terminator has been accepted for service and is being serially delivered to the Russian army. The first batch of vehicles has already been handed over to the military," the company said.

    The contract on the delivery of Terminator tank support combat vehicles to the troops was signed by Russia’s Defense Ministry and Uralvagonzavod at the Army-2017 arms exhibition. As a source in the Russian defense sector told TASS, ten such vehicles have already been delivered to the troops and they will take part in the Victory Parade on Moscow’s Red Square on May 9.

    Uralvagonzavod has demonstrated the Terminator at the Defexpo India 2018 arms show, which runs in India’s Chennai. India’s Defense Minister Nirmala Sitharaman viewed the tank support combat vehicle on Uralvagonzavod’s stand at the exhibition.

    The Terminator is armed with two 30mm guns, a large-caliber machine-gun and the Ataka-T anti-tank system. The vehicle is designed to provide fire support for the armor in an offensive, in particular, to neutralize an enemy’s manpower armed with mobile anti-tank systems.


    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/999576
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    LMFS

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    Re: BMPT programme

    Post  LMFS on Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:05 am


    Terminator-3 Tank Support Vehicle Will Be Able to Take Down Drones – Developer

    The BMPT-72 Terminator tank support combat vehicle has recently proven its worth in the Syrian conflict, and began to be introduced into the Russian Army in April.

    Uralvagonzavod is in the process of creating a new third generation of its Terminator series of tank support vehicles, Rostec Armament cluster industrial director Sergei Abramov has told Sputnik.

    "Taking into account the experience of the combat use of the Terminator, we are now working on the shape of a new modification of this machine," Abramov said.

    "The improvement of its tactical and technical characteristics, and the modernization of its chassis are being discussed. The new vehicle will be able to operate against all types of targets: air, ground, enemy troops and material targets," the official added.

    Noting that the existing Terminator-2 has proven "very successful," Abramov said that there were still multiple ways it could be improved over the long term. For instance, whereas the current version of the vehicle has a crew of five, a three-man version has also become available. The latter is made possible through increased automation of the vehicle and its weapons, the official explained.

    Other innovations include ground-to-air projectiles with an adjustable trajectory, which will allow the Terminator-3 to bring down unmanned aerial vehicles, as well as burst projectiles and larger-caliber main guns, a defense industry source told Sputnik.

    Noting that it's too early to officially name the next-gen tank support vehicle, Abramov said it could be dubbed Terminator-3, pending defense ministry approval.

    Terminator developer Uralvagonzavod created the first version of its combat support vehicle in the late 1990s based on the experiences of the Soviet Afghan and Chechen wars. The Terminator made its first public appearance in 2000. Equipped with twin 30mm autocannons, two grenade launchers, four ATAKA anti-tank guided missiles and a 7.62mm PKTM machine gun, the system is built on the chassis of a T-72 main battle tank. Current Terminator-2 operators include Russia and Kazakhstan, with Algeria set to receive several hundred starting in 2018, and other countries, including Azerbaijan, Peru, and Syria showing interest.

    Last year, the Terminator-2 was spotted at the Hmeymim airbase in Syria, where it was examined by President Bashar Assad.

    https://sputniknews.com/military/201806091065270875-terminator-3-new-capabilities/
    So after all the Terminator 3 will indeed use bigger cannons, makes much sense. According to Sputnik BR one "50" mm cannon (57 in all probability) will substitute the twin 30 mm ones.

    https://br.sputniknews.com/defesa/2018060811418235-terminator-exterminador-veiculo-blindado-russia/

    DanishDynamite

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    Re: BMPT programme

    Post  DanishDynamite on Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:53 pm

    Bigger cannons make sense for a support vehicle. Especially in urban areas where the 30mm cannons will find it difficult to cause a lot of structural damage.
    I realize the Ataka has a thermobaric version, but you can only fire 4 of them before you have to reload - and I doubt they are a lot more effective than a 125mm HE round.
    Main battle tanks certainly have proven their worth in the fighting in Syria's cities.

    I suppose the niche of the current BMPT-72 is in open terrain.

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