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    Future of Russian IFV/BMPT

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    AlfaT8

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    Re: Future of Russian IFV/BMPT

    Post  AlfaT8 on Mon Sep 05, 2016 3:08 pm

    GarryB wrote:Looks like a 57mm calibre gun...

    Those missile tubes could be carrying anything from new model Kornets to new model Krisantema...

    They look like 152mm calibre tubes at least...

    Definitely not Krisantema, the length of those launchers alone confirms that.

    kopyo-21

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    Re: Future of Russian IFV/BMPT

    Post  kopyo-21 on Mon Sep 05, 2016 3:28 pm

    Seem to be it armed 30mm gun, not 57mm.

    https://www.rt.com/news/329553-mini-turret-test-russia/
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    Zivo

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    Re: Future of Russian IFV/BMPT

    Post  Zivo on Mon Sep 05, 2016 5:20 pm

    So in this application, what does the large barrel shroud actually do?
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    KoTeMoRe

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    Re: Future of Russian IFV/BMPT

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Mon Sep 05, 2016 5:56 pm

    Zivo wrote:So in this application, what does the large barrel shroud actually do?

    Reduce the shaking of the barrel. Also you can see that the gun is an 2A72 30mm gun.

    Missiles, from diametre alone you can see those are Kornets.

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    Zivo

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    Re: Future of Russian IFV/BMPT

    Post  Zivo on Mon Sep 05, 2016 6:08 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Zivo wrote:So in this application, what does the large barrel shroud actually do?

    Reduce the shaking of the barrel. Also you can see that the gun is an 2A72 30mm gun.

    Missiles, from diametre alone you can see those are Kornets.


    How does it actually reduce shaking? Does the end of the shroud contact the barrel using a rail or tube?
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    KoTeMoRe

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    Re: Future of Russian IFV/BMPT

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Mon Sep 05, 2016 6:11 pm

    Zivo wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Zivo wrote:So in this application, what does the large barrel shroud actually do?

    Reduce the shaking of the barrel. Also you can see that the gun is an 2A72 30mm gun.

    Missiles, from diametre alone you can see those are Kornets.


    How does it actually reduce shaking? Does the end of the shroud contact the barrel using a rail or tube?

    I don't know, but it looks like a friction and support sleeve like the one that was tried on the ATOM APC.

    kopyo-21

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    Re: Future of Russian IFV/BMPT

    Post  kopyo-21 on Mon Sep 05, 2016 6:24 pm



    It looked like what Ukraine do with ZTM-1 (Ukrainian 2A72 gun) on BTR-3E.
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    Zivo

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    Re: Future of Russian IFV/BMPT

    Post  Zivo on Mon Sep 05, 2016 8:41 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Zivo wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Zivo wrote:So in this application, what does the large barrel shroud actually do?

    Reduce the shaking of the barrel. Also you can see that the gun is an 2A72 30mm gun.

    Missiles, from diametre alone you can see those are Kornets.


    How does it actually reduce shaking? Does the end of the shroud contact the barrel using a rail or tube?

    I don't know, but it looks like a friction and support sleeve like the one that was tried on the ATOM APC.

    I thought having a floating barrel was all the rage, making guns more accurate, etc. Doesn't the same rule apply to auto cannons?
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    KoTeMoRe

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    Re: Future of Russian IFV/BMPT

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Tue Sep 06, 2016 9:00 am

    Zivo wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Zivo wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Zivo wrote:So in this application, what does the large barrel shroud actually do?

    Reduce the shaking of the barrel. Also you can see that the gun is an 2A72 30mm gun.

    Missiles, from diametre alone you can see those are Kornets.


    How does it actually reduce shaking? Does the end of the shroud contact the barrel using a rail or tube?

    I don't know, but it looks like a friction and support sleeve like the one that was tried on the ATOM APC.

    I thought having a floating barrel was all the rage, making guns more accurate, etc. Doesn't the same rule apply to auto cannons?

    Floating barrels on what? Rifles...sure, auto-canons? Not exactly. The imparted energy from a 30mm round is something else than from a 7.62 cartridge.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Future of Russian IFV/BMPT

    Post  GarryB on Tue Sep 06, 2016 11:03 am

    Definitely not Krisantema, the length of those launchers alone confirms that.

    I suspect they will likely adapt Krisantema by making it a larger calibre at some stage... the length of the containers is difficult to gauge due to the angle.

    Seem to be it armed 30mm gun, not 57mm.

    yes, the 2A72 cannon has a ring around it near the muzzle which would make it appear a rather larger calibre than it actually is.

    So in this application, what does the large barrel shroud actually do?

    Support to reduce vibration during firing.

    The BMP-3 has a similar support attached to the barrel of the 100mm rifled gun.

    How does it actually reduce shaking? Does the end of the shroud contact the barrel using a rail or tube?

    Reduces vibration.

    I don't know, but it looks like a friction and support sleeve like the one that was tried on the ATOM APC.

    Also the Kliver turret and the BMP-3.

    I thought having a floating barrel was all the rage, making guns more accurate, etc. Doesn't the same rule apply to auto cannons?

    A solid support can be better than a free floating barrel.... hense bipods and MG stands are popular for machine guns and automatic weapons.




    This view of the BMP-3s main gun arrangement shows two straps around the 100mm gun... one at the muzzle of the 30mm cannon and another a little further back with a sleeve around the 30mm cannon barrel between those two straps.

    A [full length] sleeve reduces IR signature and reduces the ability of the gun to vibrate at random.


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    kopyo-21

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    Re: Future of Russian IFV/BMPT

    Post  kopyo-21 on Tue Sep 06, 2016 4:43 pm

    This view of the BMP-3s main gun arrangement shows two straps around the 100mm gun... one at the muzzle of the 30mm cannon and another a little further back with a sleeve around the 30mm cannon barrel between those two straps.

    A [full length] sleeve reduces IR signature and reduces the ability of the gun to vibrate at random.

    The two rings on 2A72 barrel are for sliding and recoiling in the tube that  fixed on the 2A70 barrel. 2A72 gun aimed for BMP-3, paralel and attached to 2A70 barrel since the first time so everything had been designed with that in mind.
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    AlfaT8

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    Re: Future of Russian IFV/BMPT

    Post  AlfaT8 on Tue Sep 06, 2016 5:37 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Definitely not Krisantema, the length of those launchers alone confirms that.

    I suspect they will likely adapt Krisantema by making it a larger calibre at some stage... the length of the containers is difficult to gauge due to the angle.

    Extremely unlikely that it's Krisantema, even angled.
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Future of Russian IFV/BMPT

    Post  TheArmenian on Tue Sep 06, 2016 8:50 pm

    I opened a new photo thread about the Army-2016 Exhibition that opened today.

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t5346-army-2016-exhibition-photos-videos-and-discussions#174463

    Here is a sharper photo of the new module from the above thread.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Future of Russian IFV/BMPT

    Post  GarryB on Wed Sep 07, 2016 12:45 pm

    Extremely unlikely that it's Krisantema, even angled.

    I agree, but I suggest that the Krisantema has a larger warhead than the Ataka it replaced and I suspect to further improve range and penetration a calibre increase at some stage is not unlikely.



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    Benya

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    Re: Future of Russian IFV/BMPT

    Post  Benya on Fri Feb 03, 2017 10:38 pm

    Analysis: Fire support vehicles BMP-T and BMPT-72 of Russian defense industry.

    Russian defense industry has developed and manufactured fire support vehicle BMPT and BMPT-72 based on the chassis of T-72 main battle tanks to increase fire power and combat capabilities of dismounted troops. This type of vehicle is armed with automatic cannon and anti-tank guided missiles able to destroy a wide range of modern military threats on the battlefield.


    Russian-made BMPT-72 Terminator 2 fire support vehicle

    The Russian defense industry under the umbrella of Rosoboronexport, Russia's state-run arms exporter company promotes fire support vehicles, BMP- T Terminator 1 and BMPT-72 Terminator 2 for the international military market.

    The BMPT-72 vehicle was developed to support tank and motorized riflemen units. It is based on the chassis of the T-72 main battle tank (MBT) and features protection that is similar to the one of MBTs. BMPT-72 has an armament suite that provides detecting and eliminating of small-sized camouflaged targets. Modern target search-and-detection systems, an automatized fire control system, a powerful multichannel automatic weapons suite, and all-aspect protection of the crew allows BMPT-72 to accomplish fire support missions in all types of combat environment and in complex geographical areas, by day and night, against any enemy.

    BMPT-72 is produced using phased-out-of-service T-72 MBTs. Obsolete T-72 tanks that are not supposed to be upgraded due to the economic ineffectiveness of such a modernization can be rebuilt into BMPT-72 vehicles. The rebuilding process comprises the replacement of tank turret by the BMPT combat module with remote controlled weapons (automatic cannons, a machinegun, and guided missiles) located in a separate structure, as well as the repairing and upgrade (at customer`s request) of the chassis. The works to rebuild T-72s into BMPT-72s can be performed at customer`s production facilities.

    The main armament of the BMPT-72 consists of two 30 mm 2A42 automatic cannons that fire high-explosive and armour-piercing rounds. The guided weapon system incorporates two launchers with four ready-to-launch guided missiles armed with high-explosive anti-tank or thermobaric warheads. The vehicle can fire the missiles on the move by day and night. It also carries a coaxial 7.62 mm machinegun.

    The uses of tank chassis provides BMPT-72 an high level of the vehicle`s protection and allows it to accomplish missions in tank formations under enemy`s fire. The protection suite of BMPT-72 incorporates basic armour, integrated explosive reactive armour, an automated smoke screening system, additional bar-slat armour, a camouflage painting, and a low visual signature


    Russian-made BMP-T Terminator 1 fire support vehicle first version.

    The BMP-T Terminator 1 fire support vehicle is designed to provide fire support to tank and motorized riflemen units and to detect and eliminate low-observable and scattered targets (primarily, enemy`s manpower equipped with small arms and anti-tank weapons) on the battlefield. It features an armament suite that allows destructing of heavy-protected platforms (tanks and tank-based vehicles), fortifications, and aerial targets. However, the detection of low-observable targets and their well-timed elimination are the primary tasks set before the BMPT fire support vehicle.

    The BMP-T Terminator 1 can be used in tank formations or separately. A tank unit equipped with BMPTs features advanced efficiency, as enemy`s well-protected vehicles and fortifications are destroyed by MBTs, while manpower, anti-tank-systems, and soft-skin vehicles by BMPTs. The separate usage of fire support vehicles envisages dismounted troops combat efficiency boosting, conveys securing and escorting, and eliminating of terrorists.

    The armament of the BMP-T Terminator 1 includes two 30 mm 2A42 dual-axis stabilized automatic cannons with an ammunition load of 850 rounds, a 7.62 mm PKT machinegun with an ammunition load of 2,000 rounds, four anti-tank laser-guided missiles, and two 30 mm automatic grenade launchers with an ammunition load of 600 grenades.

    The BMP-T Terminator 1features advanced protection suite that shield the crew from anti-tank munitions. BMPT has tank-level basic armour. Its front part is not weakened by a firing port intended for tank gun. The sides of the vehicle are additionally protected by explosive reactive armour. The BMPT`s protection suite actually exceeds the tank`s one. The rear part of the vehicle features bar-slat armour.

    Source: Arrow http://www.armyrecognition.com/weapons_defence_industry_military_technology_uk/analysis_fire_support_vehicles_bmp-t_and_bmpt-72_of_russian_defense_industry_tass_10302173.html



    I'm curious about how the Army will incorporate the BMPTs into its tank units. Maybe they will assign a BMPT company to each tank battalion of an armored brigade/division, or they do it on a much more organic manner. A few months ago I have posted an interesting article in the Armata thread (also from Army Recognition), and I'm sure that with the introduction of the "Terminator 3" based on the Armata platform it will be incorporated into the Armata brigades/divisions in an organic way.

    The link to the article I mentioned: Arrow http://www.armyrecognition.com/armies_in_the_world_analysis_focus/tactics_of_russian_motor_rifle_brigades_will_change_with_introduction_of_armata_tracked_platform_tass_12407161.html

    Speaking about the Terminator 3, it could also receive some kind of APS (most likely "Afghanit"), and "Shtora" passive electronic defense system, plus the "Nakidka" radar absorbent camouflage paint, or a more modern alternative of these two systems. Plus its automated turret with dual 57mm autocannons could also be mounted onto a T-90/T-90MS chassis, which would make a great export potential for it.
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    Cplnew83

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    Re: Future of Russian IFV/BMPT

    Post  Cplnew83 on Sun Feb 05, 2017 9:32 pm

    kopyo-21 wrote:

    It looked like what Ukraine do with ZTM-1 (Ukrainian 2A72 gun) on BTR-3E.

    Is that a vehicle sold to Thailand ? The sight is a SAFRAN Electronic Défense MPS
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    KoTeMoRe

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    Re: Future of Russian IFV/BMPT

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Sun Feb 05, 2017 10:18 pm

    Cplnew83 wrote:
    kopyo-21 wrote:

    It looked like what Ukraine do with ZTM-1 (Ukrainian 2A72 gun) on BTR-3E.

    Is that a vehicle sold to Thailand ? The sight is a SAFRAN Electronic Défense MPS

    Yes it is and yes it is the demonstrator that the RTA picked up.

    MonkeymodelBananaRepublic

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    Re: Future of Russian IFV/BMPT

    Post  MonkeymodelBananaRepublic on Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:56 pm

    Why not use bmpt in syria to demonstrate combat effectiveness as they did for t 90? It would be good for sales/advertising and be able to see how effective the tank designed for urban combat really is
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    0nillie0

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    Re: Future of Russian IFV/BMPT

    Post  0nillie0 on Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:50 pm

    MonkeymodelBananaRepublic wrote:Why not use bmpt in syria to demonstrate combat effectiveness as they did for t 90? It would be good for sales/advertising and be able to see how effective the tank designed for urban combat really is

    Well there are a few problems here :

    Firstly, UralVagonZavod would have to produce additional BMPT's from its own pocket, which would also need to be slightly adjusted for the conditions in the field there, which means additional research and development costs.
    This could be considered a risky investment, as this may very well backfire if an incompetent crew drives the vehicle into an ambush on camera.

    Secondly, as has been common practice in Syria, ground vehicles will be operated by indigenous personnel, rather than Russian crews.
    Who is going to train these Syrian/Iranian crews? The vehicle is only in limited service in Kazakhstan. No Russian military personnel is trained for operating this vehicle as far as i know.

    I am sure UVZ personnel would rather show off the vehicle capabilities in controlled environment at expo's. Will be hard to find a volunteer for such a PR mission.

    The T-90 so far has made a good showing. But these where T-90's from storage that where already built. It is a different story from non-existent BMPT's and crews.
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    Book.

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    Re: Future of Russian IFV/BMPT

    Post  Book. on Thu Jun 08, 2017 2:36 am

    New Gas-Turbine Engine Trial Fall 2017: Arctic IFV Rytsar
    Here: http://mil.today/2017/Arctic1/

    Development of advanced infantry fighting vehicle (IFV) Rytsar equipped with gas-turbine engine and electric transmission is under way; trials of the combat vehicle are scheduled in the falls, an insider in the Concern Tractor Plants told Mil.Today.

    According to the interviewee, the Rytsar IFV is being created by JSC Special Machine Building Design Bureau, virtually, on its own initiative. Currently, the project is at the "payment stage", the vehicle components are being designed. Moreover, creation of the new IFV coincides with the concern’s reorganization process, the spokesman added

    The Russian Defense Ministry plans to deploy the perspective vehicle in the Arctic where the gas turbine powerplant will operate better than the diesel one. The military wants the Rytsar IFVs to be supplied to Arctic-based motorized infantry brigades. The new combat vehicle must be powered with 400-hp engine, and its weight will exceed 20 tons, which is heavier than BMP-3.

    The engine for Rytsar IFV has been already designed and is being tested now, but so far this powerplant develops only 380 hp, a source in the Kaluga-based experimental design bureau of motor building told Mil.Today. To increase power, the new turbine needs another supercharger and additional funding. The work on the new generator continues as well. According to the interviewee, the engine will pass from the test-bed trials to the field ones by the coming fall

    Next gen Arctic BMP?  Surprised

    20+ ton IFV  ✔
    GTD 400 HP  ✔
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    GarryB

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    Re: Future of Russian IFV/BMPT

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jun 09, 2017 11:28 am

    Hope they are sensible and put a small gas turbine APU on board so when the vehicle is just sitting and not moving around the smaller more fuel efficient GT can provide warmth and power to the vehicle.

    Has been found with MBTs that running the main engine creates a big IR signature and burns a lot of fuel but is necessary in cold climates to keep the heater and electronics operating.

    Command model MBTs have auxiliary APUs to power the extra radios and equipment and can be used when stationary for long periods meaning the main engine can be shut down greatly reducing the fuel burn and the IR signature of the vehicle.


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    George1

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    Re: Future of Russian IFV/BMPT

    Post  George1 on Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:20 am

    The Russian Ministry of Defense will purchase a batch of BMPT

    As reported in his blog, Alexei Khlopotov (Gur Khan), Nizhny Tagil Uralvagonzavod is preparing to deploy a serial production of combat vehicles for the BMPT fire support, also known as the "Terminator." At present, about a dozen servicemen have arrived at the enterprise to learn how to operate these new machines. Within two weeks the sergeants passed a theoretical course on the design of the BMPT, and now they are studying the material part of the machine directly in the design bureau.

    It is expected that purchases will begin in 2018. Currently, the number of purchased machines is not yet known, but, apparently, will amount to no less than 10 pieces.



    The BMPT package will match the one in which these machines have already been supplied to Kazakhstan.
    Crew BMPT - 5 people. Weapons: 4 Ataka-T missiles (Sturm-SM), 2 automatic 30 mm 2A42 cannons, 7.62mm PKT machine gun and 2 automatic 30mm AG-17D grenade launchers on the super-ground regiments.

    The choice of this option is due to the fact that in this form the BMPT passed state tests and all necessary design documentation with the appropriate letter was properly drawn up for it, unlike the more modern and cheaper BMPT-72 "Terminator-2", which is not yet ready for serial production Production. At the same time, the BMPT can be upgraded by installing a commander's panorama with a thermal imaging channel.

    The development of the BMPT was started in 1998-99 as a result of the generalization of the experience of fighting in Chechnya. In 2006, the BMPT completed state tests and was recommended for series production, which was to begin in 2010. For the tests, two copies of the BMPT were built, one of which was tested by real shelling, explosions on mines and landmines, proving high survivability. In anticipation of state orders, the first three serial corps were laid at Uralvagonzavod, however, according to Minister A.Serdyukov's decision, the program was closed. One of the motivations for this decision was the apparent obsolescence of the base machine - the T-90A tank, proclaimed by the first deputy defense minister V. Popovkin. Three pawned cars in 2010-2012 were completed for the Armed Forces of the Republic of Kazakhstan, where during the exercises they showed high efficiency.

    Currently, the only existing prototype of the BMPT is dismantled for major repairs during which it will be brought to the appearance of the production car. At the same time it is planned that servicemen who arrived at the UVZ will participate in its assembly in order to better study the design. Upon returning to their unit, they will have to reproduce the experience gained.

    The decision to adopt the BMPT into the armament of the Russian Army is conditioned by the analysis of the "Syrian" experience. The fighting in Syria has shown an urgent need for a specialized machine, "sharpened" for counter-terrorist operations. Unfortunately, the short-sighted decisions of the Ministry of Defense officials delayed the start of equipping the Russian Army with a BMPT for at least 8 years!

    Probably, the first serial copies of the BMPT will go into service with the Taman Division and if not in 2018, then in 2019 they will pass a parade in Red Square, and then they will appear on the base of Khmeimim.

    Gur Khan: BMPT "Terminator" (circa. 1999), developed during the Raman-99 R & D, was once severely criticized. Some experts considered the equipping of the BMPT with course grenade launchers, each of which was ruled by an irrational decision, which greatly complicated and increased the cost of the car. The installation and equipping of the BMPT with obsolete and inaccurate 30mm 2A42 guns was also criticized. However, we still do not have anything better. BMPT-72, certainly better than BMPT in the sense that it removed the "extra" AG and, respectively, two "extra" crew members. However, this machine was created in an initiative order and the Ministry of Defense was not tested, therefore, for the RF Ministry of Defense it does not exist, as it were. Nevertheless, in November of last year, in 2016, your humble servant literally belittled one of the deputies of the general director of NPK Uralvagonzavod to "punch" the shipment to Syria of BMPT or BMPT-72 at least with factory crews and "light" their participation in the Syrian war Videos on YouTube. This "advertising" move could radically stimulate the purchase of new-class combat vehicles, both the Russian Army and foreign customers. And now, at last, it seems, it has come to pass!

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2678157.html


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    0nillie0

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    Re: Future of Russian IFV/BMPT

    Post  0nillie0 on Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:21 pm

    George1 wrote:The Russian Ministry of Defense will purchase a batch of BMPT

    As reported in his blog, Alexei Khlopotov (Gur Khan), Nizhny Tagil Uralvagonzavod is preparing to deploy a serial production of combat vehicles for the BMPT fire support, also known as the "Terminator." At present, about a dozen servicemen have arrived at the enterprise to learn how to operate these new machines. Within two weeks the sergeants passed a theoretical course on the design of the BMPT, and now they are studying the material part of the machine directly in the design bureau.

    I hope that we will see in 2018 a variant fitted with the new grenade launcher, once this has passed state tests. Hopefully it will be remotely operated and combined with the commanders panoramic sight, which should come as part of the default configuration. I am not a big fan of the front mounted AGS-17 grenade launchers, and the position of the crew members needed to operate them. I feel like omitting them all together would be the best choice, and i don't think it would be in conflict with the earlier state test results. As for the integration of the newest grenade launcher coupled with a panoramic sight, this would off course be a new hurdle to overcome.

    This is rather interesting move to be honest. it looks like we will see the BMPT in combat in the years to come. I do hope that, should they be deployed to Syria, that Russian personnel will be used to train local crews rather than operate the vehicles themselves.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Future of Russian IFV/BMPT

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:17 am

    I quite like the positioning of the 30mm grenade launchers on the upgraded BMP-2s where it is positioned rear centre of the turret with ammo stored either side and able to elevate independently but pointed by aiming the main gun.

    Simple, sensible, practical.


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    Re: Future of Russian IFV/BMPT

    Post  0nillie0 on Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:11 pm

    For those who missed it in the Middle Eastern Military section : BMPT @ Hmeimim Air Base, Syria



    Judging from the camouflage scheme (which is hardly visible tbh) it could be the very same demonstrator vehicle seen at RAE 2015. Note the Ataka launchers have been replaced with the slightlty better protected version found on the BMPT-72.

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