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    Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  GarryB on Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:34 pm

    2S38: 57mm based on BMP-3
    2S40: 120mm based on Ural armoured truck
    2S41: 82mm based on Typhoon-VDV

    No-one of them seems a strong solution for the Russian Armed Forces.

    What are you trying to say.

    For small light forces... ie airborne, or naval infantry, or recon units with typhoon based vehicles a light mortar armed vehicle would be very useful and be able to carry more ready to use rounds than a heavier calibre like a 120mm weapon.

    The 82mm gun would be an excellent choice in that its HE fire power would be impressive along with its direct fire accuracy and the number of rounds such a small vehicle could carry would make it an excellent choice.

    It actually wasn't that long ago the US military actually tested a humvee with an 82mm Vasilek auto mortar mounted on its back.

    Replace the 4 round clip feed with a continuous belt feed and make it dual feed so two types of ammo can be chosen rapidly and you have a very potent light weapon...

    Regarding the 57mm gun mounted on the BMP-3... the 57mm gun will be a potent light anti armour weapon, but also be useful for anti aircraft use and even an anti ambush or convoy protection calibre that could be used in a range of situations where there is no need to have a particular chassis or vehicle family.

    An airbase needs air defence vehicles but could also come under ground attack in a COIN type situation... nothing will smack down an enemy drone like a 57mm guided shell, and nothing will stop an armoured truck like a 57mm unguided SAPHEI Frag shell. It might be the only tracked vehicle on the base so it does not need to be a Kurganets or Armata based vehicle... there is no logistics train so parts can be kept on site to keep it running... it would likely be cheaper than a more modern vehicle family.


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    eehnie

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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  eehnie on Thu Aug 31, 2017 4:51 am

    Taking into account that many (more than a 60%) of the projects with 2S designation reached not active service in the Russian Armed Forces, I do not think the 2S38, 2S40 and 2S41 will be between the projects that reach active service in the Russian Armed Forces.

    Said it I do not expect a public rejection to damage not the prospect of these projects to export.

    Between the recent projects I expect a success of the 2S35, 2S42 and the Sprut SDM-1 (that likely can have also its own 2S designation).

    I also expect future successful projects based on the Armata, Kurganets and Bumerang platforms.

    I have some doubt about some option (125mm antitank or 120mm indirect+direct) based on the Typhoon 6x6 platform. I'm not sure if necessary.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  GarryB on Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:15 am

    Between the recent projects I expect a success of the 2S35, 2S42 and the Sprut SDM-1 (that likely can have also its own 2S designation).

    Sprut wont get a 2S# designation because it is not an artillery vehicle... it is a light tank. It should get a T-## designation.

    I have some doubt about some option (125mm antitank or 120mm indirect+direct) based on the Typhoon 6x6 platform. I'm not sure if necessary.

    I agree with the 125mm calibre, and the 120mm is too big for a four wheel vehicle but for a six wheel vehicle the 120mm weapon should be fine.

    The question is what they expect from their light recon forces... high speed, high mobility and high fire power... the question is, do they need a 125mm gun and 120mm gun mortar calibre.

    I rather suspect the HE power of the larger gun would be useful but the high velocity rounds would be less useful against the medium to lighter targets a recon unit would come up against. The 120mm would be useful against solid targets but if an enemy MBT is encountered missiles would be a better simpler option. The accuracy of direct fire 120mm shells would make engaging many hard targets like bunkers easier than using missiles, but then highly mobile recon units should have CAS support and long range artillery support from 70km range 152mm guns to Tochka and Iskander, so fire power should not be a problem.

    57mm high velocity direct fire guns will be very potent too.


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    franco

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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  franco on Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:06 am

    I believe the Sprut is designated as an SP anti-tank artillery piece giving it the 2S... code.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  miketheterrible on Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:18 am

    Is there any plan for a modernization or replacement of the 2S1 Gvozdika? It has really proven itself to be very effective and useful in various ops from Georgian war, Syrian conflict, Chechnya and even the Ukrainian crisis. It is a fantastic system and I think a modernization or even a new one may be ideal. No?
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    Benya

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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  Benya on Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:27 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:Is there any plan for a modernization or replacement of the 2S1 Gvozdika?  It has really proven itself to be very effective and useful in various ops from Georgian war, Syrian conflict, Chechnya and even the Ukrainian crisis.  It is a fantastic system and I think a modernization or even a new one may be ideal.  No?

    Not really. The 2S34 "Khosta" (the Gvozdika's gun was replaced with a 120mm mortar) was an attempt to modernize it. However, they didn't field it en masse, only in small numbers.

    This is the Khosta, nothing special.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  GarryB on Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:08 am

    The problem of the 2S1 is that it is a 122mm calibre weapon.

    Other than the useful towed D-30 it is not used by any other platform so the issue is... do you keep a 122mm calibre gun in a force that already had a 125mm calibre tank gun and a 120mm calibre mortar system.

    The solution is the 120mm gun/mortar which has a very similar range to the 122mm gun (13km range vs 15km) but the 120mm weapon can fire mortar bombs of both Russian and NATO design in the 120mm calibre, plus laser guided 120mm mortar rounds (GRAN) plus also the laser guided 122mm rounds (Kitolov family) and also 120mm shells including HEAT and HE.

    the idea to fit the 120m gun/mortar to the 2S1 chassis was to get the best of both worlds.... cheap system with comparable performance to the 2S1, which eliminates a whole calibre from the inventory (122mm) without losing a capability as the 120mm is very similar in performance.

    Sprut wont get a 2S# designation because it is not an artillery vehicle... it is a light tank. It should get a T-## designation.

    Sorry... a moment of stupid on my part... of course it already has a 2S designation.... it is 2S25.

    Would be interesting to put together a list of 2S# vehicles... obvious ones are the ones that made it into service... 2S1, 2S3, S24, 2S5, 2S7, 2S9, 2S19...


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    eehnie

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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  eehnie on Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:04 am


    The difference in range between the 2S1 and the 2S34 is bigger. The maximum range for the 122mm 2S1 is 21.9 Km while the maximum range for the 120mm 2S34 is 17.5 Km.

    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/2%D0%A11#.D0.A1.D0.B5.D1.80.D0.B8.D0.B9.D0.BD.D0.BE.D0.B5_.D0.BF.D1.80.D0.BE.D0.B8.D0.B7.D0.B2.D0.BE.D0.B4.D1.81.D1.82.D0.B2.D0.BE

    I do not expect the transition from 2S1 to 2S34 to be completed. The rythm is so low, it would take more than 100 years at the current rythm.

    I see more likely that the weapons in worst condition of the 2S1 be repaired with the weapons of the D-30 in best condition (not necessarily meaning a reduction in the number of D-30) in order to keep the 2S1 with the weapons of 122mm in best condition. It means the life of the 2S1 can be very long still.

    T-47

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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  T-47 on Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:38 pm

    GarryB wrote:120mm weapon can fire mortar bombs of both Russian and NATO design in the 120mm calibre, plus laser guided 120mm mortar rounds (GRAN) plus also the laser guided 122mm rounds (Kitolov family) and also 120mm shells including HEAT and HE.

    120mm gun firing 122mm rounds?
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  GarryB on Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:18 am

    The difference in range between the 2S1 and the 2S34 is bigger. The maximum range for the 122mm 2S1 is 21.9 Km while the maximum range for the 120mm 2S34 is 17.5 Km.

    Such a minor difference in range performance is not significant enough to warrant keeping an entire separate calibre in service, plus those figures are for rocket assisted shells, which is not really normal and not really that accurate against the targets they are fired at.

    The D-30 has a range of about 15km and the 120mm gun the Vena uses has a range of about 13km with shells (less with mortar bombs of course).

    I do not expect the transition from 2S1 to 2S34 to be completed. The rythm is so low, it would take more than 100 years at the current rythm.

    They decided to make this transition for sound reasons, but they wont just replace all as quickly as possible... more likely they will change a few and then use them in exercises and decide whether they can perform to the level they expect before they convert them all. Converting a test group is not indicative of the potential speed of the transition.

    I see more likely that the weapons in worst condition of the 2S1 be repaired with the weapons of the D-30 in best condition (not necessarily meaning a reduction in the number of D-30) in order to keep the 2S1 with the weapons of 122mm in best condition. It means the life of the 2S1 can be very long still.

    Again you show your limits... Towed guns are not just cheap guns waiting for a vehicle chassis to become better. In many cases a towed gun is superior to a vehicle mounted weapon... towed weapons can move across uneven terrain or up mountains and across bridges heavier vehicles cannot.

    The whole point of the changing of the calibre of the 2S1 to 120mm was to eliminate the 122mm calibre from the front line logistics table... it would be rather stupid to then modify vehicles to then take more 122mm calibre weapons when you are trying to eliminate that calibre from your forces...

    120mm gun firing 122mm rounds?

    The 122mm rounds I am talking about are gun launched missiles which do not engage the rifling of the guns that fire them so they are often quite a bit smaller in calibre with a sabot around them to fit the barrel. This means they could easily be fired from guns of 2mm smaller calibre as they don't need to engage any rifling... they just need an adapted sabot.


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    eehnie

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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  eehnie on Sat Sep 23, 2017 5:06 am

    Unfortunately for you, your hability to keep the respect is as low as your technical skills. Likely the first comes because of the late.

    The problem of your argument is that Russia agrees not with you and is not following it:

    - Russia has not been designining or ordering heavy towed weapons since its independence more than 25 years ago. Only between the biggest missiles there is some exception. Even the new A-235 missile system, successor of the towed A-135, seems to become mobile. The Russian rejection of heavy towed weapons at a development and procurement level is total since decades. I totally agree with their decissions.

    - Russia has serious reasons in the form of big ammunition stocks of 122mm to keep the weapons that fire these projectiles. It is possible that you want to see all it out of the Russian Armed Forces, but you will have to wait until the ammunition is finnished. And despite the large stocks of ammunition of 122mm, at this point Russia continues with the production of 122mm ammunition. In the case of the 73mm ammunition, they stopped the production before 2010, and the caliber is not out still.

    As consequence, no, the 122mm is not going to disappear in the Russian Armed forces as soon as you want. and is safe enough to say that Russia will keep longer the 2S1 than the D-30.

    Finally, the difference I posted means the 2S1 of 122mm has a 25% bigger maximum range than the 2S34 of 120mm. Not a minor difference.

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