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    Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  GarryB on Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:34 pm

    2S38: 57mm based on BMP-3
    2S40: 120mm based on Ural armoured truck
    2S41: 82mm based on Typhoon-VDV

    No-one of them seems a strong solution for the Russian Armed Forces.

    What are you trying to say.

    For small light forces... ie airborne, or naval infantry, or recon units with typhoon based vehicles a light mortar armed vehicle would be very useful and be able to carry more ready to use rounds than a heavier calibre like a 120mm weapon.

    The 82mm gun would be an excellent choice in that its HE fire power would be impressive along with its direct fire accuracy and the number of rounds such a small vehicle could carry would make it an excellent choice.

    It actually wasn't that long ago the US military actually tested a humvee with an 82mm Vasilek auto mortar mounted on its back.

    Replace the 4 round clip feed with a continuous belt feed and make it dual feed so two types of ammo can be chosen rapidly and you have a very potent light weapon...

    Regarding the 57mm gun mounted on the BMP-3... the 57mm gun will be a potent light anti armour weapon, but also be useful for anti aircraft use and even an anti ambush or convoy protection calibre that could be used in a range of situations where there is no need to have a particular chassis or vehicle family.

    An airbase needs air defence vehicles but could also come under ground attack in a COIN type situation... nothing will smack down an enemy drone like a 57mm guided shell, and nothing will stop an armoured truck like a 57mm unguided SAPHEI Frag shell. It might be the only tracked vehicle on the base so it does not need to be a Kurganets or Armata based vehicle... there is no logistics train so parts can be kept on site to keep it running... it would likely be cheaper than a more modern vehicle family.


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    eehnie

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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  eehnie on Thu Aug 31, 2017 4:51 am

    Taking into account that many (more than a 60%) of the projects with 2S designation reached not active service in the Russian Armed Forces, I do not think the 2S38, 2S40 and 2S41 will be between the projects that reach active service in the Russian Armed Forces.

    Said it I do not expect a public rejection to damage not the prospect of these projects to export.

    Between the recent projects I expect a success of the 2S35, 2S42 and the Sprut SDM-1 (that likely can have also its own 2S designation).

    I also expect future successful projects based on the Armata, Kurganets and Bumerang platforms.

    I have some doubt about some option (125mm antitank or 120mm indirect+direct) based on the Typhoon 6x6 platform. I'm not sure if necessary.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  GarryB on Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:15 am

    Between the recent projects I expect a success of the 2S35, 2S42 and the Sprut SDM-1 (that likely can have also its own 2S designation).

    Sprut wont get a 2S# designation because it is not an artillery vehicle... it is a light tank. It should get a T-## designation.

    I have some doubt about some option (125mm antitank or 120mm indirect+direct) based on the Typhoon 6x6 platform. I'm not sure if necessary.

    I agree with the 125mm calibre, and the 120mm is too big for a four wheel vehicle but for a six wheel vehicle the 120mm weapon should be fine.

    The question is what they expect from their light recon forces... high speed, high mobility and high fire power... the question is, do they need a 125mm gun and 120mm gun mortar calibre.

    I rather suspect the HE power of the larger gun would be useful but the high velocity rounds would be less useful against the medium to lighter targets a recon unit would come up against. The 120mm would be useful against solid targets but if an enemy MBT is encountered missiles would be a better simpler option. The accuracy of direct fire 120mm shells would make engaging many hard targets like bunkers easier than using missiles, but then highly mobile recon units should have CAS support and long range artillery support from 70km range 152mm guns to Tochka and Iskander, so fire power should not be a problem.

    57mm high velocity direct fire guns will be very potent too.


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    franco

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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  franco on Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:06 am

    I believe the Sprut is designated as an SP anti-tank artillery piece giving it the 2S... code.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  miketheterrible on Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:18 am

    Is there any plan for a modernization or replacement of the 2S1 Gvozdika? It has really proven itself to be very effective and useful in various ops from Georgian war, Syrian conflict, Chechnya and even the Ukrainian crisis. It is a fantastic system and I think a modernization or even a new one may be ideal. No?
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    Benya

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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  Benya on Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:27 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:Is there any plan for a modernization or replacement of the 2S1 Gvozdika?  It has really proven itself to be very effective and useful in various ops from Georgian war, Syrian conflict, Chechnya and even the Ukrainian crisis.  It is a fantastic system and I think a modernization or even a new one may be ideal.  No?

    Not really. The 2S34 "Khosta" (the Gvozdika's gun was replaced with a 120mm mortar) was an attempt to modernize it. However, they didn't field it en masse, only in small numbers.

    This is the Khosta, nothing special.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  GarryB on Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:08 am

    The problem of the 2S1 is that it is a 122mm calibre weapon.

    Other than the useful towed D-30 it is not used by any other platform so the issue is... do you keep a 122mm calibre gun in a force that already had a 125mm calibre tank gun and a 120mm calibre mortar system.

    The solution is the 120mm gun/mortar which has a very similar range to the 122mm gun (13km range vs 15km) but the 120mm weapon can fire mortar bombs of both Russian and NATO design in the 120mm calibre, plus laser guided 120mm mortar rounds (GRAN) plus also the laser guided 122mm rounds (Kitolov family) and also 120mm shells including HEAT and HE.

    the idea to fit the 120m gun/mortar to the 2S1 chassis was to get the best of both worlds.... cheap system with comparable performance to the 2S1, which eliminates a whole calibre from the inventory (122mm) without losing a capability as the 120mm is very similar in performance.

    Sprut wont get a 2S# designation because it is not an artillery vehicle... it is a light tank. It should get a T-## designation.

    Sorry... a moment of stupid on my part... of course it already has a 2S designation.... it is 2S25.

    Would be interesting to put together a list of 2S# vehicles... obvious ones are the ones that made it into service... 2S1, 2S3, S24, 2S5, 2S7, 2S9, 2S19...


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    eehnie

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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  eehnie on Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:04 am


    The difference in range between the 2S1 and the 2S34 is bigger. The maximum range for the 122mm 2S1 is 21.9 Km while the maximum range for the 120mm 2S34 is 17.5 Km.

    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/2%D0%A11#.D0.A1.D0.B5.D1.80.D0.B8.D0.B9.D0.BD.D0.BE.D0.B5_.D0.BF.D1.80.D0.BE.D0.B8.D0.B7.D0.B2.D0.BE.D0.B4.D1.81.D1.82.D0.B2.D0.BE

    I do not expect the transition from 2S1 to 2S34 to be completed. The rythm is so low, it would take more than 100 years at the current rythm.

    I see more likely that the weapons in worst condition of the 2S1 be repaired with the weapons of the D-30 in best condition (not necessarily meaning a reduction in the number of D-30) in order to keep the 2S1 with the weapons of 122mm in best condition. It means the life of the 2S1 can be very long still.

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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  T-47 on Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:38 pm

    GarryB wrote:120mm weapon can fire mortar bombs of both Russian and NATO design in the 120mm calibre, plus laser guided 120mm mortar rounds (GRAN) plus also the laser guided 122mm rounds (Kitolov family) and also 120mm shells including HEAT and HE.

    120mm gun firing 122mm rounds?
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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  GarryB on Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:18 am

    The difference in range between the 2S1 and the 2S34 is bigger. The maximum range for the 122mm 2S1 is 21.9 Km while the maximum range for the 120mm 2S34 is 17.5 Km.

    Such a minor difference in range performance is not significant enough to warrant keeping an entire separate calibre in service, plus those figures are for rocket assisted shells, which is not really normal and not really that accurate against the targets they are fired at.

    The D-30 has a range of about 15km and the 120mm gun the Vena uses has a range of about 13km with shells (less with mortar bombs of course).

    I do not expect the transition from 2S1 to 2S34 to be completed. The rythm is so low, it would take more than 100 years at the current rythm.

    They decided to make this transition for sound reasons, but they wont just replace all as quickly as possible... more likely they will change a few and then use them in exercises and decide whether they can perform to the level they expect before they convert them all. Converting a test group is not indicative of the potential speed of the transition.

    I see more likely that the weapons in worst condition of the 2S1 be repaired with the weapons of the D-30 in best condition (not necessarily meaning a reduction in the number of D-30) in order to keep the 2S1 with the weapons of 122mm in best condition. It means the life of the 2S1 can be very long still.

    Again you show your limits... Towed guns are not just cheap guns waiting for a vehicle chassis to become better. In many cases a towed gun is superior to a vehicle mounted weapon... towed weapons can move across uneven terrain or up mountains and across bridges heavier vehicles cannot.

    The whole point of the changing of the calibre of the 2S1 to 120mm was to eliminate the 122mm calibre from the front line logistics table... it would be rather stupid to then modify vehicles to then take more 122mm calibre weapons when you are trying to eliminate that calibre from your forces...

    120mm gun firing 122mm rounds?

    The 122mm rounds I am talking about are gun launched missiles which do not engage the rifling of the guns that fire them so they are often quite a bit smaller in calibre with a sabot around them to fit the barrel. This means they could easily be fired from guns of 2mm smaller calibre as they don't need to engage any rifling... they just need an adapted sabot.


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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  eehnie on Sat Sep 23, 2017 5:06 am

    Unfortunately for you, your hability to keep the respect is as low as your technical skills. Likely the first comes because of the late.

    The problem of your argument is that Russia agrees not with you and is not following it:

    - Russia has not been designining or ordering heavy towed weapons since its independence more than 25 years ago. Only between the biggest missiles there is some exception. Even the new A-235 missile system, successor of the towed A-135, seems to become mobile. The Russian rejection of heavy towed weapons at a development and procurement level is total since decades. I totally agree with their decissions.

    - Russia has serious reasons in the form of big ammunition stocks of 122mm to keep the weapons that fire these projectiles. It is possible that you want to see all it out of the Russian Armed Forces, but you will have to wait until the ammunition is finnished. And despite the large stocks of ammunition of 122mm, at this point Russia continues with the production of 122mm ammunition. In the case of the 73mm ammunition, they stopped the production before 2010, and the caliber is not out still.

    As consequence, no, the 122mm is not going to disappear in the Russian Armed forces as soon as you want. and is safe enough to say that Russia will keep longer the 2S1 than the D-30.

    Finally, the difference I posted means the 2S1 of 122mm has a 25% bigger maximum range than the 2S34 of 120mm. Not a minor difference.
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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  George1 on Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:16 pm

    Russia in troops in Syria
    152mm Msta-B (2A65)





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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  George1 on Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:56 pm

    Roshydromet will receive 68 towed howitzer D-30

    In accordance with the decree of the Government of the Russian Federation No. 2461-r, signed on November 8, 2017, the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation must forward to Roshydromet 68 122-mm D-30 towed howitzers to ensure the operation of the anti-avalanche service. Also, 68 individual and 8 group sets of spare tools and accessories for them, and 4,500 high-explosive artillery shell shots of OF-462, must be transferred.

    Financial provision of costs associated with the implementation of the order will be implemented within the budgetary allocations provided by Roshydromet in the federal budget for the implementation of the state program "Environmental Protection" for 2012-2020. "



    The addition of bmpd. Up to now, 100-mm CS-19 anti-aircraft guns and BS-3 field guns, as well as mortars of calibres 120, 160 and 240 mm, were used to equip the Roshydromet anti-avalanche service, and one 152-mm 2A36 "Hyacinth-B" cannon is used in Kamchatka. , and D-30 howitzers were absent.

    Roshydromet is a federal executive body under the jurisdiction of the Ministry of Natural Resources and Ecology of the Russian Federation.


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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  GarryB on Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:26 am

    The D-30 is a very impressive weapon, but it is a calibre that could be replaced within the Russian military without losing too much in terms of capability.

    I remember reading that at max range of 15km its circle of impact, or CEP where most rounds would land if there are no faults with the ammo or gun was about 60m long and just under 10m wide, which is rather impressive accuracy in my opinion.

    The fact that they are being transferred to units trying to start avalanches to improve public safety suggests they are reserve weapons now and will gradually be withdrawn from service.

    I have seen footage of recoilless rifles being used for the same role too... the SPG-9 in particular.

    The D-30 has the advantage of 360 degree traverse which would make working with snow drifts in different places much easier without having to move the gun each time.


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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  eehnie on Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:44 am

    George1 wrote:Roshydromet will receive 68 towed howitzer D-30

       In accordance with the decree of the Government of the Russian Federation No. 2461-r, signed on November 8, 2017, the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation must forward to Roshydromet 68 122-mm D-30 towed howitzers to ensure the operation of the anti-avalanche service. Also, 68 individual and 8 group sets of spare tools and accessories for them, and 4,500 high-explosive artillery shell shots of OF-462, must be transferred.

    Financial provision of costs associated with the implementation of the order will be implemented within the budgetary allocations provided by Roshydromet in the federal budget for the implementation of the state program "Environmental Protection" for 2012-2020. "



    The addition of bmpd. Up to now, 100-mm CS-19 anti-aircraft guns and BS-3 field guns, as well as mortars of calibres 120, 160 and 240 mm, were used to equip the Roshydromet anti-avalanche service, and one 152-mm 2A36 "Hyacinth-B" cannon is used in Kamchatka. , and D-30 howitzers were absent.

    Roshydromet is a federal executive body under the jurisdiction of the Ministry of Natural Resources and Ecology of the Russian Federation.

    Then, this mean an exit of these pieces of the Russian Armed Forces, to go to a gouvenrmental agency that will use them for civil purposes, not military. In fact this is a decommission.

    Also very likely this mean the retirement of the gouvernmental agency of the weapons used before for this purpose, that likely have been going, or will go fast, to Syria.

    Interesting, and logical.

    Taking into account that the 152mm and 122mm artillery pieces are between the armament that I would consider of exclusive use of the Russian Armed Forces, it would be logical if Russia considers a militarization of the service of these weapons for this purpose.
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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  George1 on Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:15 pm

    what a civil service will do the howitzers? Question


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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  franco on Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:18 pm

    George1 wrote:what a civil service will do the howitzers? Question

    They are used to start controlled avalanches in the mountain areas.
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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  ZoA on Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:40 pm

    George1 wrote:what a civil service will do the howitzers? Question

    They need it to fight of yeti, baba Yaga, vodyanoy and Koschei
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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  George1 on Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:14 pm

    Uraltransmash is to refurbish (& upgrade?) all reserve stock(>400) Tyulpan (2S4) self-propelled 240mm mortars for the MoD by 2020.16 Tyulpan (2S4) have been refurbished & upgraded so far.Undisclosed no.of Pion (2S7) 203mm SP guns are to be refurbished too.

    https://ria.ru/defense_safety/20171116/1508902617.html


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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  GarryB on Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:48 am

    They are unique vehicles with unique capabilities...

    Though the fact that they are being refurbished suggests my earlier speculation of heavier weapons for Armata brigades/divisions is probably wrong.

    With new 152mm guns reaching 70km with standard guided rounds most targets would not need such specialised weapons.

    Having a reserve of those weapons however would be useful, especially if the guidance kits can be attached to those rounds too making them much more useful.

    152mm rounds are generally in the 40kg payload weight range, while the 240mm mortar rounds can weigh between 100 and 130kgs, and the 203mm rounds in the 110kg weight range over a much greater distance than the mortar rounds.


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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  eehnie on Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:02 am

    George1 wrote:Uraltransmash is to refurbish (& upgrade?) all reserve stock(>400) Tyulpan (2S4) self-propelled 240mm mortars for the MoD by 2020.16 Tyulpan (2S4) have been refurbished & upgraded so far.Undisclosed no.of Pion (2S7) 203mm SP guns are to be refurbished too.

    https://ria.ru/defense_safety/20171116/1508902617.html

    This is also good news for Russia.

    Both calibers are useful, and are likely to remain, because are not redundant.

    I do not think this affects to potential future weapons of these calibers.
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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  eehnie on Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:17 am

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t7008p850-russian-ground-forces-news-2#209423

    franco wrote:MOSCOW, Nov. 17 - RIA Novosti. The Russian Defense Ministry will maintain 122-mm self-propelled howitzers 2C1 "Gvozdika" and modernize them, equipping an automated management system, the Izvestia newspaper reported on Friday.

    "The military department is discussing the modernization of the" Gvozdik "with the representatives of industry.The decision to modernize is taken in light of the successful use of self-propelled howitzers in almost all armed conflicts of recent times, including in Syria." Carnations "kept mobility in a highly rugged terrain, where heavier self-propelled guns could not pass, "the article says.

    It notes that after a thorough modernization the crew will only have to press the button, so that the system itself made the calculations, put the gun on the target at the given coordinates and determined the necessary number and type of ammunition. Howitzers will also receive shells of increased power and accuracy.

    "The military department in the near future must finally decide on the tactical and technical task for the modernization of self-propelled howitzers, the number of artillery installations to be converted and, consequently, the price of the issue." It is expected that one of the enterprises of NPK Uralvagonzavod, - the report says.

    According to the publication, "the highlight of the updated self-propelled artillery systems (SAU) will be an automated guidance and fire control system that will minimize crew participation and increase fire efficiency." The self-propelled guns should receive a more advanced ballistic calculator of the sighting complex, new sights and, possibly, a new chassis domestic production. "

    Just at the begin of this page it was a discussion about the future of the 2S1.

    As expected the 2S1 will continue long time in the Russian Armed Forces.
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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  TheArmenian on Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:30 pm

    GarryB wrote:They are unique vehicles with unique capabilities...

    Though the fact that they are being refurbished suggests my earlier speculation of heavier weapons for Armata brigades/divisions is probably wrong.

    With new 152mm guns reaching 70km with standard guided rounds most targets would not need such specialised weapons.

    Having a reserve of those weapons however would be useful, especially if the guidance kits can be attached to those rounds too making them much more useful.

    152mm rounds are generally in the 40kg payload weight range, while the 240mm mortar rounds can weigh between 100 and 130kgs, and the 203mm rounds in the 110kg weight range over a much greater distance than the mortar rounds.

    And, as if by coincidence, today's subject in the Chasavoy program was about the Tyulpan and Pion heavy artillery.


    And AFAIK, this is the first time we are seeing the 240mm laser guided round SMELCHYAK of the 2S4 Tyulpan mortar.
    https://i.imgur.com/bSKpVdP.jpg

    You can watch the whole program here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5W2HPH4eKlA

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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  GarryB on Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:54 am

    It was listed in the "russias arms 2001-2002" catlog released over 15 years ago.... including images and specs.

    BTw that was a good vid...


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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  George1 on Sat Nov 25, 2017 3:31 pm

    Russian is developing artillery piece Magnolia on tracked chassis for Arctic

    A self-propelled artillery piece Magnolia on an articulated armored tracked chassis is being developed for army units deployed in Arctic areas

    MOSCOW, November 23. /TASS/. A self-propelled artillery piece Magnolia on an articulated armored tracked chassis is being developed for army units deployed in Arctic areas, the chief of the Defense Ministry’s Missile and Artillery Department, Lieutenant-General Nikolai Parshin said at a meeting of top officials responsible for the material and logistic support for the Russian Armed Forces.

    "In 2017 alone 30 missile and artillery pieces were adopted for service. Research and development work proceeded on more than 50 missile and artillery projects. At the moment work is in progress on hardware for units deployed in the rigorous Arctic climate. On the list armaments there is a 120-mm self-propelled artillery piece Magnolia on an armored articulated tracked chassis and an air defense missile system Tor-M2DT mounted on the snow and marshland vehicle DT-30MP," Paqrshin said.


    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/977182


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