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    Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

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    George1
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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  George1 on Sat Oct 01, 2016 2:03 am

    It looks too ugly..


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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  eehnie on Sat Oct 01, 2016 2:36 am

    The analysis of the data offered by the Military Balance 2016 for Russia, has one of its weakest points in the data refered to a number of old towed artillery systems that are not in active service.

    It is definitely proved by the fact of an interesting coincidence.

    According to the following link, published in february of 2008, armyrecognition.com offers the same data for many systems than The Military Balance 2016:

    http://armyrecognition.com/russie/russie_armee_russe_forces_terrestres_equipements_militaires_vehicules_blindes_information_descriptio.html#artillery

    Canon- obusier tracté
    D-44 85mm ?
    D-30 122mm (Tracté) 4,600 (active)
    D-74 122mm (Tracté) ?
    M-30 M-1938 122mm (Tracté) 3,750 https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/122-%D0%BC%D0%BC_%D0%B3%D0%B0%D1%83%D0%B1%D0%B8%D1%86%D0%B0_%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B7%D1%86%D0%B0_1938_%D0%B3%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%B0_(%D0%9C-30)#.D0.9D.D0.B0_.D0.B2.D0.BE.D0.BE.D1.80.D1.83.D0.B6.D0.B5.D0.BD.D0.B8.D0.B8
    M-46 130mm (Tracté) 650 https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/130-%D0%BC%D0%BC_%D0%BF%D1%83%D1%88%D0%BA%D0%B0_%D0%9C-46#.D0.9D.D0.B0_.D0.B2.D0.BE.D0.BE.D1.80.D1.83.D0.B6.D0.B5.D0.BD.D0.B8.D0.B8
    2A36 152mm (Tracté) 1,100 (active)
    2A65 152mm (Tracté) 750 (active)
    D-1 152mm ? (see M-1943, is the same)
    D-20 152mm (Tracté) 1,075 https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/152-%D0%BC%D0%BC_%D0%BF%D1%83%D1%88%D0%BA%D0%B0-%D0%B3%D0%B0%D1%83%D0%B1%D0%B8%D1%86%D0%B0_%D0%94-20#.D0.AD.D0.BA.D1.81.D0.BF.D0.BB.D1.83.D0.B0.D1.82.D0.B0.D0.BD.D1.82.D1.8B
    M-1943 152mm (Tracté) 700 https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/152-%D0%BC%D0%BC_%D0%B3%D0%B0%D1%83%D0%B1%D0%B8%D1%86%D0%B0_%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B7%D1%86%D0%B0_1943_%D0%B3%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%B0_(%D0%94-1)#.D0.9D.D0.B0_.D0.B2.D0.BE.D0.BE.D1.80.D1.83.D0.B6.D0.B5.D0.BD.D0.B8.D0.B8
    ML-20 M-1937 152mm (Tracté) 100 https://ru.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=152-%D0%BC%D0%BC_%D0%B3%D0%B0%D1%83%D0%B1%D0%B8%D1%86%D0%B0-%D0%BF%D1%83%D1%88%D0%BA%D0%B0_%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B7%D1%86%D0%B0_1937_%D0%B3%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%B0_(%D0%9C%D0%9B-20)&stable=0&redirect=no
    B-4M 203mm (Tracté) 40 https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/203-%D0%BC%D0%BC_%D0%B3%D0%B0%D1%83%D0%B1%D0%B8%D1%86%D0%B0_%D0%91-4%D0%9C#.D0.9D.D0.B0_.D0.B2.D0.BE.D0.BE.D1.80.D1.83.D0.B6.D0.B5.D0.BD.D0.B8.D0.B8

    Mortier
    2B16 Nona-K 120mm ? (active)
    2S9 Nona-S 120mm ? (self propelled active)
    2S12 120mm 920 (active)
    PM-38 120mm 900
    M-160 300mm 300 https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/160-%D0%BC%D0%BC_%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B7%D0%B8%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D0%BC%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%BC%D1%91%D1%82_%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B7%D1%86%D0%B0_1949_%D0%B3%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%B0_(%D0%9C-160)#.D0.9E.D0.BF.D0.B5.D1.80.D0.B0.D1.82.D0.BE.D1.80.D1.8B
    2S4 240mm self-propelled mortar 430 (self propelled active)

    After the data of armirecognition.com of 2008 is included the link to the Russian wikipedia, where it is possible to see in the part of the operators, the data offered by The Military Balance 2016.

    I do not know who is the primary source. I would not rule out to be The Military Balance (it is easy to see in their reports of the 2008 or 2007), but it would mean they have been providing the same data for these systems for almost 10 years without updates, and with an strong decommission wave between 2010 and 2013. These systems are from the 1930s, 1940s and 1950s. This is the weakest part of their data.


    Last edited by eehnie on Sun Oct 09, 2016 12:08 am; edited 3 times in total

    GarryB
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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  GarryB on Sat Oct 01, 2016 9:25 am


    The 2S1 is a weapon that remains actual and very useful. Russia has the 2S34 if want to replace the 122mm caliber, at the rithm they want to do it. Of course Russia will not eliminate the 122mm until its stored ammunition of this caliber is finished.

    Don't get me wrong... the 122mm gun in both towed and self propelled versions is a potent and effective weapon, but with the improvements in the 152mm ammo in terms of range and accuracy and the fact that most of the new vehicle families will have gun/mortar vehicles in 120mm calibre and also likely 152mm artillery pieces then the 122mm gun becomes a little redundant.

    The 122mm calibre weapons are rather popular in many foreign countries where the 152mm calibre is too big and too heavy and not really justified... I am sure in 4-5 years time Russia will export its remaining D-30 towed 122mm guns and its remaining 2S1 vehicles that retain 122mm guns and of course they will need ammo and an ammo supply.

    Low rate production can continue in Russia to supply those needs for decades to come.

    In the Russian military however the quicker they can eliminate the calibre of 122mm artillery shells the fewer types of ammo they need to store and supply. The 120mm calibre in shells and mortar rounds can continue to provide excellent short range support.

    The removal of T-62s and T-54/55 tanks and their towed equivalent tank calibre guns means 100mm rifled tank rounds and 115mm smoothbore tank calibre rounds could have already been removed too.

    I do not think this new vehicle would have advantage over the 2S34.

    In a kurganets brigade the 2S34 would be under armoured... a kurganets based 120mm gun mortar vehicle will likely be developed.

    {edit} now I read the new gun/mortar shown has crew outside of the vehicle loading and firing the weapon... such exposed positions for crew and ammo goes against all the protection measures being introduced on the new vehicle families... ie autoloading weapons with unmanned turrets and auto ammo feed systems that separate the crew from the ammo and keep the crew under armour protection.

    This new vehicle would be a huge step back even for the old 2S34 upgraded model.

    In Boomerang and Typhoon brigades this vehicle... if it uses standard components of those families would be excellent in terms of mobility... in comparison a tracked 2S34 would not keep up with a wheeled family of vehicles. But in terms of crew protection the 2S34 would be better.

    This makes me think there will be 120mm gun armed Armata and Kurganets and Boomerang and Typhoon vehicles... the latter two will be wheeled and high mobility vehicles, while the former two will be better armoured and tracked offering better cross country performance... but all will have unmanned turrets and better armour protection than this truck.

    With the 2S34 and the 2S36, for me this new vehicle can be a model for export.

    Not sure what you mean by 2S36... do you mean Coalition? 2S35?

    2S34 is a stopgap... it exists because there are plenty of chassis and plenty of stores and support equipment for those platforms.

    When the vehicle families get into full production... ie Armata, typhoon, Kurganets, Boomerang, and BMD-4M then 120mm gun/mortar versions of those will replace the 2S34 and upgraded MSTA.

    When new models are available all the surplus items will likely go into storage first and then be exported to allies.

    1,000 kms range? Isn't that too much? Ammo capacity is good, even better is an/some ammo carrier truck(s) supports the "Floks" system or a battery of 6 systems.

    Driving range of the truck. not range of the gun.


    It is very interesting data.

    The fact that the crew is out, unprotected while firing, makes this new system some step back the 2S1, 2S34, 2S36, and even of the 2S23 and 2S9, on safety of the crew. It makes unlikely the adoption of this system by the Russian Armed Forces. I do not think it would meet the current Russian requirements on safety of the crew.

    Otherwise this system would be far ahead of towed artillery.

    I agree... this is for export for replacing 122mm D-30 guns.

    the Typhoon and Boomerang and Kurganets and Armata versions with a 120mm gun/mortar will have auto loading and separation of gun and ammo and the crew.

    The BMD-4M version is called Vena and it has a manned turret but I suspect when unmanned turrets are developed for the other vehicle families that the BMD-4 will get an unmanned turret version too.

    M-160 300mm 300 https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/160-%D0%BC%D0%BC_%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B7%D0%B8%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D0%BC%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%BC%D1%91%D1%82_%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B7%D1%86%D0%B0_1949_%D0%B3%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%B0_(%D0%9C-160)#.D0.9E.D0.BF.D0.B5.D1.80.D0.B0.D1.82.D0.BE.D1.80.D1.8B

    Typo? The M-160 is a 160mm weapon... not a 300mm weapon.


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    Benya
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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  Benya on Sat Oct 01, 2016 9:43 am

    GarryB wrote:Driving range of the truck. not range of the gun.

    I know, since there is no 120 mm gun-launched cruise missile Laughing


    Last edited by Benya on Sat Oct 01, 2016 10:50 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  eehnie on Sat Oct 01, 2016 10:16 am

    2S36 is being the notation used for the BMD-4M based Zauralets-D artillery system.

    Yes, 300mm for the M-160 is a mistake in the source of origin of the data.

    I do not think all the types of ammunition of 122mm would be available for export. Some maybe, but the most advanced maybe for own use only. They will not be wasted unnecessarily, and to use them Russia needs a number of 2S1, when required. I tend to think that the 2S1 (and as consequence the 122mm caliber) can remain in service with Russia between 10 and 20 years. Maybe more.

    The first replacement in the Russian armed forces will be likely the replacement of the low numbers still active of towed artillery. This even can be done before the procurement of new units of artillery systems based on the new platforms (except the 2S35), with the stored units of self propelled vehicles. Likely this decade.

    Later I tend to think that the less strong systems would be the 2S9 and 2S23, and it can make them the first systems replaced. Surely in the next decade.

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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  GarryB on Sun Oct 02, 2016 8:40 am

    2S36 is being the notation used for the BMD-4M based Zauralets-D artillery system.

    Ahh... that makes sense.

    I suspect that vehicle will also have the same flaw in that the gun is still external and would need crew outside the vehicle to load the weapon...


    I do not think all the types of ammunition of 122mm would be available for export. Some maybe, but the most advanced maybe for own use only. They will not be wasted unnecessarily, and to use them Russia needs a number of 2S1, when required. I tend to think that the 2S1 (and as consequence the 122mm caliber) can remain in service with Russia between 10 and 20 years. Maybe more.

    I agree that the 122mm ammo and weapons would remain effective for the next 20-30 years in the artillery role, but I suspect the real problem is that they have three calibres that are very similar in terms of range and shell weight and performance... there is the 122mm artillery round, the 120mm gun/mortar which has a similar weight shell that while lacks the range in the mortar role (7km or so with standard rounds) is quite competitive with shells (13km or so), and of course the tank calibre of the 125mm smoothbore. I would also add that the 100mm gun of the BMP-3 is also in the same category in terms of range and shell weight.

    The 120mm gun mortar could offer similar performance replacing both the 122mm and 100mm calibres in a support vehicle... whether it is a mortar carrier or a BMP-T fire support vehicle.

    The 122mm will remain effective for some time but its performance can be provided by the 120mm gun/mortar... I would say for air borne units that 2S31 Vena would be better than Zauralets or this new vehicle... the main advantage of the latter two would be lower cost and simplicity and wheeled chassis, but Vena on a Typhoon or Boomerang chassis would also have the advantages of a wheeled chassis in terms of mobility and speed on a road.


    The first replacement in the Russian armed forces will be likely the replacement of the low numbers still active of towed artillery. This even can be done before the procurement of new units of artillery systems based on the new platforms (except the 2S35), with the stored units of self propelled vehicles. Likely this decade.

    I don't agree.

    I think they certainly will replace the very old types of odd calibres if they have not withdrawn them already, but quite often units have towed guns because towed guns are more suitable for their sort of missions. In this case a towed gun unit using 122mm D-30s wont have 2S1 vehicles with 122mm or 2S34 vehicles with 120mm gun/mortars replacing them. More likely they would have NONA towed 120mm gun/mortars replacing their D-30s... because towed guns suit their operation. or mobility requirements.





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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  Benya on Tue Oct 04, 2016 11:54 pm

    Nice thumbsup (however, there is a Msta in the first picture, not a Koalitsiya)  


    Russian artillery vehicles 2S35 and 2S19 to be equipped with communication systems for Arctic.

    Russian armor, including latest modifications of 2S35 Coalition-SV and 2S19 MSTA-S self-propelled artillery guns will be equipped with advanced communications means capable of operating in the Arctic, said Director General of the Popov Gorkosvky Communications Equipment enterprise which produces the device Mikhail Gusev.


    Russian artillery 152mm self-propelled howitzer 2S35 Coalition-SV (Picture copyright Vitaly Kuzmin)

    The enterprise is currently engaged in fulfilling the state defense order to equip Russian armor, including the latest one, with advanced communication complexes. "We have already reequipped and continue to equip the existing hardware: howitzers Coalition, Msta, Gvozdika, Tulip, Acacia, as well as the latest 2S35 Coalition-SV, 2S19 MSTA-S and BMD-4 with modern communication means. They are capable of operating at temperatures from minus 50 to plus 50 degrees also in conditions of the Arctic," he said.

    Gusev stressed that the new communication complex is a fully domestic design of the Nizhny Novgorod enterprise which specializes in the production of such devices. "From the point of view of import replacement the unit is fully produced from made-in-Russia components. As for today its functional capabilities cover all the needs of mentioned arms of troops," he said.

    The complex consists of a radio station and internal communications and commutation system which receives outside signal, topographic data and other necessary information for the crew during combat and allows them to communicate between themselves.

    "The new design is distinguished by high functionality, reliability (service life of up to 25 years), minimal size and convenient interface. A tankee can connect with the radio station, field telephone and communicate with all crewmembers with one touch of a hand even in gloves," Gusev said adding the equipment was produced upon demand of domestic armor designers. He said his company production was worth 1 billion rubles last year of which 90 percent were state defense orders. This year the state defense order grew 25 percent.


    Russian 2S19 MSTA-S 152mm self-propelled howitzer at RAE 2015, Russian Arms Expo in Nizhny Tagil, Russia.

    Source: Arrow http://www.armyrecognition.com/october_2016_global_defense_security_news_industry/russian_artillery_vehicles_2s35_and_2s19_to_be_equipped_with_communication_systems_for_arctic_10210161.html



    It is nice to see more arctic variants of more and more vehicles thumbsup . Russia currently has two arctic brigades, the 80th (stationed at Alakurtti, Karelia) and the 200th (stationed at Pechenga, Murmansk region) Detached Motor Rifle Brigades, with a third being formed, and these brigades will surely to be equipped with these state of the art equipment, including arctic Msta and Koalitsiya howitzers.

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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  eehnie on Wed Oct 05, 2016 2:32 am

    I do not expect the 2S36 Zauralets-D based on the BMD-4M needs load of the weapon from outside.

    http://www.armyrecognition.com/february_2016_global_defense_security_news_industry/tsniitochmash_has_tested_its_new_fighting_module_for_zauralets-d_self-propelled_artillery_system_tass_10502166.html

    There are not 2B16 Nona-K in the reserve, and the production finished in 1989.

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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  GarryB on Wed Oct 05, 2016 9:54 am

    I do not expect the 2S36 Zauralets-D based on the BMD-4M needs load of the weapon from outside.

    Ooops... my mistake... I was thinking of that wheeled tigr vehicle with a 122mm gun attached to the rear in an external mount. :rolleye:


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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  Mindstorm on Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:03 am

    eehnie wrote:I do not expect the 2S36 Zauralets-D based on the BMD-4M needs load of the weapon from outside

    Please can you point out from where this information come from ?

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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  eehnie on Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:14 am

    Mindstorm wrote:
    eehnie wrote:I do not expect the 2S36 Zauralets-D based on the BMD-4M needs load of the weapon from outside

    Please can you point out from where this information come from ?


    GarryB wrote:
    eehnie wrote:2S36 is being the notation used for the BMD-4M based Zauralets-D artillery system.

    Ahh... that makes sense.

    I suspect that vehicle will also have the same flaw in that the gun is still external and would need crew outside the vehicle to load the weapon...

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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  franco on Mon Oct 17, 2016 10:18 pm

    New ammunition with remote detonation

       Group "Tehmash" has started testing new artillery ammunition with remote detonation intelligent system, "Interfax", the press service of the concern.
       "At the first stage of our ammunition will get 57mm combat units AU-220M" Baikal ", which is already included in the armament of armored personnel carriers" Boomerang "and infantry fighting vehicles based on the platform" Armata "T-15 and BMP family" kurganets-25 " . in the future we plan to develop the ammunition caliber 30 mm for older BTR-82, BMP-2 and BMP-3 "- quoted the press service of" Tehmash "Yury Nabokov, Director General of JSC NPO" instrument "on the basis of which was developed shell.
       The press service noted that the main innovation in the projectile will be the presence of a miniature fuse with artificial intelligence. This system allows you to program the shell to undermine a certain time.
       "This time is automatically calculated by the computer, depending on the distance to a target approaching the target, ammo explodes and creates a cloud of several thousand shrapnel balls, which is able to destroy the small-sized UAV, or, for example, reconnaissance quadrocopter." - Quoted the press service of the General Director the Group "Tehmash" Sergey Rusakov
       According to Oleg Chizhevskogo, general designer of NPO "Pribor", shells already passed the stage of development work and took to the preliminary tests.
       "Given the prospect of this development, we expect that in the near future, after the completion of all the tests, it will be put into service" - said O.Chizhevsky.

    More info: http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2188654.html

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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  eehnie on Tue Oct 18, 2016 1:49 am

    franco wrote:SP Artillery Numbers
    - includes Ground Forces, Naval Infantry and Coastal plus Airborne
    - normal battalion has 18 firing pieces, rounded up to 20 to allow unit spares
    - does not include training, reserve or storage pieces

    2S1 - 340 (17 bns)
    2S3 - 840 (42 bns)
    2S4 - 8 (1 bn)
    2S5 - 140 (7 bns)
    2S7 - 12 (1 bn)
    2S9 - 370 (16 bns + 7 btys)
    2S19 - 600 (30 bns) last production received in 2014
    2S23 - ~50 not sure if used as a bn mortar bty
    2S34 - ~50 not sure if used as a bn mortar bty or replacing 2S1 bns
    2S35 - 12 delivered this year, main production starts next year
    A-222 - ~30 Berg 130mm Coastal Artillery, status not sure

    Rocket Artillery Numbers
    - broke down by caliber to include all types

    122 - 980 (49 bns) at least 8-10 bns have upgraded Tornado-G
    220 - ~200 ( 4 units of 24 and 8 units of 8 Uragan = 160 plus 5-15 units of 3 TOS-1A)
    300 - 24 (2 brigades of 12 each)

    SP Antitank Numbers
    - part of the Artillery & Rocket Forces
    - organized into companies of 9, rounded up to 10 to allow spares

    BTR-RD - 120 (12 coys) AT-4/5
    9P148 - 200 (20 coys) AT-5
    9P149 - 960 (96 coys) AT-6
    9P157 - ~50 (started production replacing the 9P149) AT-15
    Tigr/Kornet - ~10 (just delivered, starting production) AT-14
    2S25 - ~30 delivered, awaiting upgrading before resuming production

    Towed Artillery

    2A18 D-30 122mm field howitzer - 120 (bn of 12 for 4 abn div = 48 plus bty of 6 for 4 abn bde = 24 plus bty of 6 for 8 spetz bde = 48)
    Nona-K 120mm gun/mortar - ~30 (maybe used in place of D-30's in some Spetz bdes)
    MT-12 Rapira 100mm gun - 270 (bty of 6 for 35 MR bdes plus bty of 6 for 10 arty bdes)
    2A36 152mm field gun - 100-120 (5-6 bn of 18 in 18th MG div (2) and Coastal Artillery bdes)
    2A65 152mm field howitzer - 160-200 (8-10 bn of 18 in Artillery bdes)

    Notes - you would expect the 100mm MT-12 AT gun to be obsolete for destroying tanks but the Russian artillery keeps it as an artillery "sniper" weapon

    Very interesting data to remember, posted by Franco more than 1 year ago (in the page 2 of this topic). In this quote I unified the data of two posts.

    It would be very interesting some update to confirm the trends of the last years and to see new trends.

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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  airstrike on Sat Oct 22, 2016 11:17 am

    Russian 1st Guards Tank Army to receive 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV self-propelled howitzers

    http://echelon-defense.com/2016/10/22/russian-1st-guards-tank-army-to-receive-2s35-koalitsiya-sv-self-propelled-howitzers/

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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  George1 on Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:35 pm

    Report from the artillery factory № 9

    Rare video footage of one of the key enterprises of the Russian military-industrial complex - JSC "Zavod № 9" (Ekaterinburg, in the Soviet period was a "special production" "Uralmash", and now is a part of JSC "Scientific and Production Corporation" Uralvagonzavod "name F . Dzerzhinsky ")



    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2235448.html


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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  eehnie on Thu Nov 17, 2016 10:40 am

    Some reports say that the Border Service of the FSB has some units of 2S1 (12 units) and D-30 (20 units) both of 122mm.

    I tend to think that these weapons are over what would be necessary in the security forces. In overall terms the 122mm caliber is something that in my view should be used exclusively by the Russian Armed Forces. To be in non-military forces seems a downgrade of this warfare to me, and makes more difficult the standardization. The trend that I would expect (if has not been done at this point) for this caliber and these weapons is to be out of the Russian security forces. In the case of the 2S1 a transfer to the Russian Armed Forces. In the case of the D-30 can also go as aid to third contries.

    Also is reported the presence of some 2S9 (18 units). While I'm not sure if the Russian security forces would need really self propelled artillery, in case of real need this would be the right weapon and the right caliber to have (in my opinion). They have also bigger amounts of other 120mm mortars of portable/man-portable size like the 2S12.

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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  GarryB on Fri Nov 18, 2016 7:51 am

    I seem to remember there were some non lethal rounds developed for the 122mm calibre artillery guns... specifically a jamming round that can be fired behind enemy lines to jam nearby communications... and also a flare carrying round.

    122mm can also use guided shells so in terms of low collateral damage use these would be ideal.

    Of course in most situations it would be totally over kill... for police operations.

    Of course the terrorists that attacked the Moscow theatre and the school at Beslan were better armed than some countries armed forces so the extra fire power might come in useful I suppose.


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    Post  d_taddei2 on Wed Nov 23, 2016 1:04 am

    eehnie wrote:
    It is very interesting data.

    The fact that the crew is out, unprotected while firing, makes this new system some step back the 2S1, 2S34, 2S36, and even of the 2S23 and 2S9, on safety of the crew. It makes unlikely the adoption of this system by the Russian Armed Forces. I do not think it would meet the current Russian requirements on safety of the crew.

    Otherwise this system would be far ahead of towed artillery.



    i agree, other countries have managed to have their systems operate from inside and self loaders etc, i think the Serbs version both the Sora 122mm and the Nora B-52 are both great systems. Russia is a bit behind when it comes to wheeled SP artillery yes they produced the  A-222 Bereg 130mm, but this was put on such a heavy chassis making the system weight 43.7 tons, which makes it 10.7 tons heavier than the heaviest version of Nora B-52, and even 1.7 tons heavier than 2S19 Msta-S which is armoured and carrying a bigger gun. I really don't know why Russia choose the MAZ 543 to mount a 130mm gun, you would think with all the trucks, and surplus armoured vehicles they could have mounted it on something else which would be lighter, such as the following:

    KamAZ-6350/6560 8x8 (used for Panstir and Tornado MRLS)
    Ural-5323 8x8
    ZIL-135 (used for FROG-7)
    BAZ-5937/6944/6950 (used for OSA)
    BTR-80
    BTR-70
    BTR-60

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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  Benya on Sun Dec 18, 2016 10:56 am

    Analysis : Russian defense industry promotes modern artillery systems on global military market.

    Despite latest defense hardware developments, artillery that was introduced to armies several centuries ago remains 'the god of war' and the backbone of land forces. It drastically facilitates the accomplishing of almost all combat tasks. Therefore, artillery and rocket artillery systems are supposed to be in high demand in the years to come.


    BM-30 Smerch 300mm MLRS (Multiple launch Rocket System)

    Russia`s Rosoboronexport company offers proven, reliable, and combat effective hardware of the aforementioned types to potential foreign customers on the global arms market.

    The 300 mm Smerch (Whirlwind) multiple launch rocket system (MLRS) is one of the most powerful rocket artillery platform in the world. The system is intended for engaging enemy`s manpower, soft-skin pieces of hardware, artillery units, helicopters on their landing sites, deployed air defense assets, air- and sea-borne assault teams, command-and-control (C2) posts, etc. The launch vehicle (LV) features an automated laying/fire control system that allows establishing of information and technical interface between the LV and the C2 post; transmitting/receiving of information in automatic mode at high speeds and its visual displaying on the computer screen; laying of the launching tubes from inside the crew cabin; determining of LV position through the medium of satellite navigation hardware.

    The Smerch MLRS system can use rockets equipped with several types of warheads, including fragmentation sub-munition, anti-tank (AT) mine cluster, high-explosive fragmentation (HE-Frag), thermobaric, HE penetrating, shaped-charged fragmentation, and sensor-fuzed sub-munitions ones. According to the specifications, Smerch has a caliber of 300 mm, a firing range of 25-90 km, a full salvo time of 40 seconds, a time required to change the LV from travel to combat position (and vice versa) of 3 minutes, a maximum road speed of 60 km/h, a cruising range of 850 km, a full weight of 43,700 kg, and a crew of three servicemen. The LV is armed with 12 launching tubes. Rosoboronexport also offers a lightened truck-based variant of the Smerch system that features six launching tubes. It features the similar specifications, while having a full salvo time of 20 seconds, a maximum road speed of 90 km/h, a cruising range of 1,000 km, a full weight of 23,570 kg or 24,650 kg (depending on the type of container), and a crew of two servicemen. The presence of two modifications of the Smerch MLRS systems in the Rosoboronexport's catalogue allows meeting almost all types of requirements for modern rocket artillery.


    Tordano-G latest generation of BM-21 122mm MLRS (Multiple Launch Rocket System)

    The company also offers the proven and reliable 122 mm Grad MLRS system that is believed to be one the most effective rocket weapons in the world. Grad is intended for engaging enemy`s manpower, soft-skin targets, light armoured vehicles, artillery/rocket artillery/mortar batteries, C2 posts, ammunition depots, etc.

    The Grad LV features an automated laying and fire control system that allows firing from an unsurveyed position; laying of the launching tubes from inside the crew cabin and without using the aiming points; reducing of time of staying on firing position; preparing initial firing data. According to Rosoboronexport`s catalogue, Grad has a maximum firing range of 40 km, a full salvo time of 20 seconds, a full weight of 15,020 kg, and a crew of two servicemen. The system features 40 launching tubes. Grad can be based on the Ural wheeled trucks.


    2S19 MSTA-S 152mm self-propelled howitzer

    The company also pays a significant attention to the promoting of Russian-originated self-propelled artillery on the global arms market. The 152 mm Msta-S self-propelled gun (SPG) remains the central piece of Rosoboronexport`s SP barrel artillery portfolio. The SPG features an automated laying and fire control system, that allows displaying the information for vehicle`s crew, processing the individual corrections introduced by commander, storing the received information in memory, calculating initial firing data in indirect firing mode, etc. Msta-S is intended for the engaging of enemy`s manpower, weapon systems, and other types military hardware. According to the specifications, the SPG has a firing range of 6-29 km, an ammunition load of 50 rounds, a firing rate of 8 rounds per minute, an elevation angle between -3° and +68°, a traverse angle of 360°, a maximum speed of 60 km/h, a cruising range of 500 km, a weight of 42 t, and a crew of five servicemen. Msta-S can cross a trench of 2.8 m and a vertical obstacle of 0.5 m.

    Rosoboronexport also offers the upgraded Akatsiya SPG to potential foreign customers. The self-propelled gun is equipped with an automated laying and fire control system. Akatsiya is intended for engaging enemy`s manpower and military hardware. According to the specifications, the SPG has a firing range of 4.2-20.5 km, a firing rate of 4 rounds per minute, an elevation angle between -4° and +60°, a traverse angle of 360°, an ammunition load of 46 rounds, a weight of 27.5 t, and a crew of four servicemen.


    2S31 Vena 120mm self-propelled mortar carrier on tracked armoured.

    The 2S31 Vena SPG is intended for engaging enemy`s manpower, hardware, C2 posts, and armoured vehicles. The self-propelled gun allow quick fire concentration to engage selected targets. Vena features a high level of the gun automation, enhanced performance of the integrated equipment, and the increased reliability of communications systems.

    The 2S31 SPG is equipped with a 120 mm gun, HE rounds of which do not fall short of their 122 mm or 152 mm analogues in terms of effective area. The gun also features a high accuracy of fire. According to the specifications, Vena has a firing range of 0.4-13 km, a firing rate of eight to 10 rounds per minute, an ammunition load of 70 rounds, an elevation angle between -4° and +80°, a traverse angle of 360°, a maximum speed of 70 km/h, a cruising range of 600 km, a weight of 19.5 t, and a crew of four servicemen. In initial configuration, the SPG is based on the chassis of the BMP-3 infantry fighting vehicle (IFV).


    Nona-SVK 120mm wheeled self-propelled mortar carrier

    Rosoboronexport offers the 120 mm Nona-SVK SPG to potential foreign customers. It is designed to destroy and suppress enemy`s manpower, artillery and mortar batteries, armoured targets, C2 posts, etc. The system features a 120 mm breech-loading rifled gun installed in a welded turret that is mounted on the chassis of the BTR-80 vehicle. It can deliver both direct and direct fire by artillery projectiles and mortar shells. According to the specifications, Nona-SVK has a firing range of 0.48-12.5 km, a firing rate of 10 rounds per minute, an elevation angle between -4° and +80°, an ammunition load of 30 rounds, a weight of 14.5 t, and a crew of four servicemen.

    Russia`s company promotes a range of towed artillery platforms that have retained their combat effectiveness in the SPG and MLRS era. Towed gun seems to be a relatively inexpensive and cost-effective approach to the increasing of infantry units` firepower capabilities.


    D-30A 122mm towed howitzer

    The 122 mm D-30A howitzeris an updated variant of the world-known D-30. The D-30A is intended for destroying and suppressing of enemy`s manpower, hardware, engineering installations, engaging enemy`s artillery and mechanized units, and breaching the minefields and barbed wire-protected areas.

    The howitzer is complemented by a three-frame carriage that enables all-around firing. According to the specifications, D-30A has a firing range of 4-15.3 km, a firing rate of six to eight rounds per minute, an elevation angle between -7° and +70°, a traverse angle of 360°, a weight of 3,200 kg (in combat position), and a crew of six servicemen.


    Nona-K 120mm towed howitzer

    Rosoboronexport offers the 120 mm Nona-K towed gun that is intended for engaging of enemy`s manpower and military hardware in the nearest tactical area. The combined breech-loading rifled gun can deliver both direct and indirect fire. It can fire both artillery projectiles and mortar shells. The gun`s barrel features a muzzle brake, unlike the self-propelled variant. According to the specifications, the Nona-K towed gun has a maximum firing range of 8.8 km (for artillery projectiles) or 7.1 km (for mortar shells), an elevation angle between -10° and +80°, a traverse angle between -30° and +30°, a firing rate of eight rounds per minute, an ammunition load of 60 rounds, a weight of 1.2 t, and a crew of five servicemen. It can be towed by a UAZ-469 all-terrain car or similar utility vehicles.

    Russia`s company also promotes the Nona-M1 towed rifled semi-automatic breech-loading mortar. It is intended for engaging enemy`s manpower, materiel, mortar batteries, engineering installations and for providing of fire support to motorized rifle units. The mortar can be dismantled into four pieces for comfortable carrying or installation on various vehicles. According to the specifications, the Nona-M1 mortar has a caliber of 120 mm, a firing range of 450-12,800 m, a maximum firing rate of nine (for artillery projectiles) or 11 (for mortar shells) rounds per minute, a weight of 507 kg, and a crew of five servicemen.


    Sani 120mm mortar

    Rosoboronexport`s towed mortars portfolio also includes the 120 mm Sani system. It is intended for engaging of enemy`s manpower and military equipment. According to the specifications, the Sani mortar has a firing range of 480-7,100 m, a maximum firing rate of 10 rounds per minute, an elevation angle between 45° and 80°, a traverse angle between -5° and +5° (without bipod relocation) and of 360° (with bipod relocation), a weight of 230 kg (in combat position), and a crew of five servicemen.


    2B14 Podnos 82mm mortar

    The company also offers the 82 mm Podnos muzzle-loaded mortar. It is designed to engage enemy`s manpower and materiel. According to the specifications, the Podnos mortar has a firing range of 0.08-4.02 km, a firing rate of 24 rounds per minute, an elevation angle between 45°and 85°, a traverse angle of 8° (without bipod relocation) and of 360° (with bipod relocation), a weight of 42.6 kg (in combat position), and a crew of five servicemen.


    2S25 Sprut-SD 125mm tracked armoured self-propelled anti-tank gun

    Rosoboronexport promotes the 125 mm Sprut-SD self-propelled anti-tank gun (SPATG). It is intended for destroying of enemy`s tanks, SPGs, armoured personnel carriers (APC), and other mobile and static targets 2S25 Sprut-SD 125mm tracked armoured self-propelled anti-tank gun.

    Source: Arrow http://www.armyrecognition.com/weapons_defence_industry_military_technology_uk/analysis_russian_defense_industry_promotes_modern_artillery_systems_on_global_military_market_11312165.html

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    Post  d_taddei2 on Sun Dec 18, 2016 11:37 pm

    i am surprised they aren't trying to sell the following: upgraded 2S3, 2A65 "Msta-B towed 152mm, and the 2A36 Giatsint-B 152mm,  and also push the 2S5 Giatsint-S to try and clear stocks of this, i am sure Iraq would probably buy these it wasn't so long ago they bought     D-20 from Russia. The 2S1 is also pretty handy SP artillery and easy to maintain. They could look to clear BM-21 stocks.

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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  Benya on Fri Dec 30, 2016 2:46 pm

    Over 60 Tornado-G MLRS and 20 Msta-SM howitzers delivered to Russian Army in 2016

    Over 60 Tornado-G multiple-launch rockets systems (MLRS) and more than 20 Msta-SM howitzers have been delivered to the Russian Army in 2016, the service chief, Colonel General Oleg Salyukov, said at the annual session of the Military Council of the Russian Army’s command element.


    Russian Tornado-G Multiple-Launch Rockets Systems

    Two Iskander-M missile system brigade sets, over 60 Tornado-G MLRS and upwards of 20 Msta-SM self-propelled howitzers have been received in 2016," the service chief said. In excess of 70 upgraded Grad-M MLRS have been fielded too, Salyukov added.

    The Iskander-M missile systems is designed for destroying command posts, signal centers, aircraft at airfields, guided missile systems, MLRS and long-range tube artillery at a range of 500 km.

    The Tornado-G is designed to strike exposed and sheltered manpower, armor, field artillery guns, mortars and command posts. The system is two to three times more lethal than the Grad MLRS owing to its enhanced-lethality rockets and automated laying/targeting, survey and navigation systems.

    The mainstay of the firepower of the 2S33 Msta-SM SP howitzer, the antecedent to the cutting-edge 2S35 Koalitsiya SP howitzer, is the 152-mm 2A65 gun with a rate of fire exceeding 10 rounds per minute.

    Source: Arrow http://www.armyrecognition.com/december_2016_global_defense_security_news_industry/over_60_tornado-g_mlrs_and_20_msta-sm_howitzers_delivered_to_russian_army_in_2016_72912163.html

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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  miketheterrible on Fri Dec 30, 2016 5:53 pm

    According to a post by Victor, Russia is supposed to procure something like 700 MLRS systems. So the 60 is a little low in the numbers for the total plan.

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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  franco on Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:13 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:According to a post by Victor, Russia is supposed to procure something like 700 MLRS systems.  So the 60 is a little low in the numbers for the total plan.

    Missing a key word... "modernized" MRLS systems. So 60 new and 80 upgraded = 140 modernized. For all artillery fire support weapons 2011-2020 procurement plan is over 2,000 units of which ~700 will be MRLS.

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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 31, 2016 7:00 am

    i am surprised they aren't trying to sell the following: upgraded 2S3, 2A65 "Msta-B towed 152mm, and the 2A36 Giatsint-B 152mm, and also push the 2S5 Giatsint-S to try and clear stocks of this, i am sure Iraq would probably buy these it wasn't so long ago they bought D-20 from Russia. The 2S1 is also pretty handy SP artillery and easy to maintain. They could look to clear BM-21 stocks.

    Their best feature is that they have quite a few in stock.

    For Iraq there is no incentive to buy something that is no longer in production and is a dead end in terms of upgrades.

    they will not sell off things that they might have a use for themselves...


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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  eehnie on Sat Dec 31, 2016 11:40 am

    d_taddei2 wrote:i am surprised they aren't trying to sell the following: upgraded 2S3, 2A65 "Msta-B towed 152mm, and the 2A36 Giatsint-B 152mm,  and also push the 2S5 Giatsint-S to try and clear stocks of this, i am sure Iraq would probably buy these it wasn't so long ago they bought     D-20 from Russia. The 2S1 is also pretty handy SP artillery and easy to maintain. They could look to clear BM-21 stocks.

    Why would you like to see Russia selling these, if Russia has still less modern and less powerful artillery?

    2B9, ZU-23-2, (M)T-12, 2B16 and D-30 should go first. Russia has several thousands of (M)T-12 and D-30.

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