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    Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

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    Militarov
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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  Militarov on Thu Sep 03, 2015 6:51 pm

    franco wrote:
    Militarov wrote:I assume 2B16 Nona Ks are still in service in some numbers? From what i heard there are around 100ish in service, but what is bugging me why they never replaced D30s with towed Nonas, imo that would be good option since atm it looks like Russians are lacking newer light artillery systems.

    Very few Nona-Ks are used and I'm not sure why. The D-30 could still be popular because of greater range and direct fire option.

    Well times changed, you dont have anymore much of need to use direct fire due to quite big amounts of ATGMs around, automatic grenade launchers etc and greatly increased accuracy of disposable AT weapons, but yes it does offer somewhat greater range but Nona is lighter, ammo is cheaper (i suppose it would be even cheaper if mass produced) and most important, its new. I am quite sure no new D30s were produced for Russian army in long time. But you need to sacrifice something to get something thats how it mostly works. I did see however videos of NonaK in Novorossya i wonder how they performed there.
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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  GarryB on Sat Sep 05, 2015 12:25 am

    Well times changed, you dont have anymore much of need to use direct fire due to quite big amounts of ATGMs around, automatic grenade launchers etc and greatly increased accuracy of disposable

    On another thread you are welcoming the return of large calibre guns in the anti aircraft role... but in the ground to ground role you think guns are obsolete and missiles can do everything... the Soviets/Russians have long had Grad in 122mm calibre but has never replaced tube with rocket artillery... each have their strengths and weaknesses and both have a place.


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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  Militarov on Sat Sep 05, 2015 12:40 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Well times changed, you dont have anymore much of need to use direct fire due to quite big amounts of ATGMs around, automatic grenade launchers etc and greatly increased accuracy of disposable

    On another thread you are welcoming the return of large calibre guns in the anti aircraft role... but in the ground to ground role you think guns are obsolete and missiles can do everything... the Soviets/Russians have long had Grad in 122mm calibre but has never replaced tube with rocket artillery... each have their strengths and weaknesses and both have a place.

    Ofc i welcome return of high calibre AA guns, they are extremly cost effective compared to missiles even compared to cheapest ones like Verba/Igla/Mistral/Stinger and their accuracy with modern FCS and dedicated ammunition is excellent. But i dont really think direct fire from 122mm howtizers is needed today, you have fire support vehicles with 105/120/125mm guns for that role, tanks, IFVs with high caliber high velocity guns etc. I dont find it crucial, actually during Yugoslav wars i barely ever heard of direct fire by 122mm D30s, thats what i base my conclusion on.

    MLRS will never get replaced i agree with you on that, they have their huge advantages over conventional artillery, however they did improve over time and smart ammunition was developed and their ranges increased, i dont think 122mm MLRS should go anywhere, however i just dont direct fire capability to be a must on light artillery. Back in time it was your only defence aganist tanks and armored vehicles, today as i already said you have plentiful and very widespread use of ATGMs and disposable AT weapons even in smallest infantry units.
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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  eehnie on Tue Jan 05, 2016 3:01 am

    I tend to think that the heavy towed artillery will be replaced before than the oldest self propelled vehicles.

    It is logical and predictable to see self propelled artillery pieces returning to the active service from the reserve to replace the heavy towed artillery (that has higher crews for the same piece). All the heavy towed artillery of Russia can be replaced by this way in the short term.

    In the near future I think we will see in Russia only self propelled or man-portable artillery.
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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 05, 2016 10:14 am

    There are new towed weapons being produced... towed means lighter and cheaper and much simpler.

    Especially for use in difficult terrain a towed weapon can sometimes be easier to take with you and operate than a whole new vehicle...

    Remember the purpose behind the unified vehicle families was so that every vehicle in the unit has one type of engine and one type of track and a standard transmision etc etc.

    By adding a 2S4 you are adding different tracks and different engine and transmission etc etc.

    Adding a towed 240mm mortar means an extra truck and one new type of ammo for the unit.


    Of course sometimes mobility is the key so the tracked model will be used, but I don't think it is the end of the towed models.

    I actually think one of the most powerful and cool weapons the Soviets had was the Vasilek 82mm automatic mortar... and I don't think there was any model of it mounted specifically on a vehicle except the towed model lashed to a carrier.

    Fitting it to a vehicle would be cool with a continuous belt feed instead of a four round clip...


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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  Militarov on Tue Jan 05, 2016 3:16 pm

    Light towed 152/155mm howtizers are still being developed and still are going to be developed and made. Nothing can match their versatility and how easily they can be moved to the front, even by Jeeps and medium helicopters. Also many terrains do not allow use of any type of self propelled artillery, this is where 105/122/152/155mm light artillery comes in handy, dropped by helicopter or pushed by soldiers, you do not expect them to fight without artillery are you.

    Also very important aspect is the price wich tends to be alot lower for towed than self propelled versions. Russians tho lack really good light towed howtizer atm in class of M777. Except that prototype 2A61 that i belive never saw any orders.

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    The mortars of 82mm successors of the old 2B9 Vasilek

    Post  eehnie on Tue Jan 05, 2016 10:42 pm

    The mortars of 82mm successors of the old 2B9 Vasilek (over 600Kg) are of man-portable size since the 1980s. The 2B14 Podnos is of 42 Kg, and the modern 2B24 and 2B25 have 45Kg and 13Kg of weight. This is the artillery of man-portable size I was talking about. It is succeeding in the Russian Armed Forces like the self propelled artillery.

    In the other side, in recent years the development of heavier towed artillery seems to have the purpose of developing guns for new self propelled artillery models, since there is not a single model since the 80s succeeding with significant number or orders for the Russian Armed Forces. The 2B23 (over 400Kg) maybe the best known case but has not English Wikipedia or warfare.be articles, and even this gun is designed to be man-portable divided in four parts.

    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/2%D0%9123

    Russia has some advantage here. Other countries have not enough developed their self propelled artillery to think about to replace the towed artillery, but Russia can think about it even in the short term. The movement is predictable since the current heavy towed artillery in service is from the 80s or before, and will not remain forever


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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  Militarov on Tue Jan 05, 2016 11:08 pm

    eehnie wrote:
    The mortars of 82mm successors of the old 2B9 Vasilek (over 600Kg) are of man-portable size since the 1980s. The 2B14 Podnos is of 42 Kg, and the modern 2B24 and 2B25 have 45Kg and 13Kg of weight. This is the artillery of man-portable size I was talking about. It is succeeding in the Russian Armed Forces like the self propelled artillery.

    In the other side, in recent years the development of heavier towed artillery seems to have the purpose of developing guns for new self propelled artillery models and/or for export, since there is not a single model since the 80s succeeding with significant number or orders for the Russian Armed Forces. The 2B23 (over 400Kg) maybe the best known case and even has not English Wikipedia or warfare.be articles.

    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/2%D0%9123

    Russia has some advantage here. Other countries have not enough developed their self propelled artillery to think about to replace the towed artillery, but Russia can think about it even in the short term. The movement is predictable since the current heavy towed artillery in service is from the 80s or before, and will not remain forever



    Mortars are rarely considered as an artillery, but ultra light infantry support weapon. In Serbian army if you call mortar in front of an officer as "an artillery piece" you will probably do 100 pushups. Mortars are mortars, artillery is an artillery.

    Also Vasilek is class of its own, its automatic mortar and it simply cant be replaced with something like 2B14, USSR operated 82mm mortars long before Vasilek came into service and still it found its place. Nona variations and variants are not replacement for Vasilek either, unless it gets phased out completely as idea of automatic mortar, but i am not sure about that still.

    Problem with self propelled artillery is that its useless in so many regions, it simply cant go to all the places it might be required. When D30 variants go to storages Russia is out of real light artillery. Nona-K for an example imo could replace D30, but what will fill the gap between Nona and MSTA/Coalition? Towed or even self mobile light howtizer in 152mm is equired, something like SLWH Pegasus for an example, abit weighty but still alot less than MSTA-B and helicopter transportable.

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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  flamming_python on Wed Jan 06, 2016 12:30 am

    Militarov wrote:Also very important aspect is the price wich tends to be alot lower for towed than self propelled versions. Russians tho lack really good light towed howtizer atm in class of M777. Except that prototype 2A61 that i belive never saw any orders.


    Yes I always thought that if there's one piece of military hardware that Russia should import (rather - produce domestically under license) from the UK/US - it should be the M777. Shouldn't be hard to convert it to 152mm calibre. It would be useful for mountain units in the Caucasus, Russian forces in Tajikistan, Armenia and Syria.

    But then again if that 2A61 wasn't needed, then the M777 wouldn't be either - as they both pretty much occupy the same niche.
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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  Werewolf on Wed Jan 06, 2016 12:39 am

    And what exactly is so special about the M777 compared with the kings in artillery?
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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  Militarov on Wed Jan 06, 2016 12:44 am

    flamming_python wrote:
    Militarov wrote:Also very important aspect is the price wich tends to be alot lower for towed than self propelled versions. Russians tho lack really good light towed howtizer atm in class of M777. Except that prototype 2A61 that i belive never saw any orders.


    Yes I always thought that if there's one piece of military hardware that Russia should import (rather - produce domestically under license) from the UK/US - it should be the M777. Shouldn't be hard to convert it to 152mm calibre. It would be useful for mountain units in the Caucasus, Russian forces in Tajikistan, Armenia and Syria.

    But then again if that 2A61 wasn't needed, then the M777 wouldn't be either - as they both pretty much occupy the same niche.

    Its good divisional artillery system all round, good in field as it is in the mountains. It can basically replace MSTA-B, D30 and eventual Gig and M46 if they exist anywhere anymore in Russian army (some photos of M46 were released in 2014. that appeared to be in service) and rest can be perfomed by MSTA-S and upcoming Coalition. Get Nona based stuff for VDV as they need something extremly light and that would be it.
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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  Militarov on Wed Jan 06, 2016 12:48 am

    Werewolf wrote:And what exactly is so special about the M777 compared with the kings in artillery?

    Well for start main reason why its so popular...weight. Its extremly light, then unlike current Ru artillery systems its fully digitalised + naturally has all manual controls and devices as backup. Has an actual balistic computer integrated too. Considering fact its Western product its not even extremly expencive.
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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  flamming_python on Wed Jan 06, 2016 1:12 am

    Militarov wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:And what exactly is so special about the M777 compared with the kings in artillery?

    Well for start main reason why its so popular...weight. Its extremly light, then unlike current Ru artillery systems its fully digitalised + naturally has all manual controls and devices as backup. Has an actual balistic computer integrated too. Considering fact its Western product its not even extremly expencive.

    Well it's actually only a tad bit lighter (80-150kg depending on the sources) than the 2A61, and not quite as compact in dimensions; but the difference seems to be that the 2A61 achieved its weight by using a shorter barrel and other compromises, whereas the M777 used lighter materials and without compromising on anything.

    As a result the 2A61 has a considerably shorter max. range than the M777. It also has a huge dead-zone; 4km - no good for mountain warfare. Also, there were also some other doubts about its design choices. It requires a larger crew. Many things it just copied from the D-30, a capable but old system by now. It might not be good for transporting on mountain roads; they made it pretty narrow when limbered up, which will give it a high centre of gravity.
    At the end of the day the 2A61 stayed as a prototype throughout the late 80s, 90s and 2000s, while the M777 entered wide service in multiple countries, and was imported by the US extensively. It says something.

    I'm sure its possible to modernize the 2A61 with GLONASS guidance, digital systems and the latest ammo to increase its range, but if the base model is considerably inferior in key parameters to a current-gen NATO model, or doesn't fully satisfy modern-day requirements (it was never intended as a mountain howitzer as such) - then what's the point? Better get busy developing the next generation instead, or license-build the foreign analogue.
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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  George1 on Wed Jan 06, 2016 9:58 am

    btw which is the main towed-gun of Russian Army??


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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jan 06, 2016 10:43 am

    The 2A65 is the towed version of the MSTA... rather than buying M777 I would prefer to see a towed version of Coalition...

    Besides there is always Grad/Tornado...


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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  Militarov on Wed Jan 06, 2016 1:12 pm

    GarryB wrote:The 2A65 is the towed version of the MSTA... rather than buying M777 I would prefer to see a towed version of Coalition...

    Besides there is always Grad/Tornado...

    Towed coalition would be probably 6+ tons, that is not light howtizer by any means. What is goal here is to have 152mm howtizer weighting under 4,5 tons so Mi17 can slung it externally.
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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  Militarov on Wed Jan 06, 2016 1:15 pm

    George1 wrote:btw which is the main towed-gun of Russian Army??

    Most numerous is D30 howtizer, then comes MSTA-B, then Giatsint-B. I did not count Rapiras here, as they are specific platform, but their numbers would fit somewhere between D30s and MSTAs i assume. As MAIN i guess MSTA-B would be representative.
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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  George1 on Wed Jan 06, 2016 1:21 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    George1 wrote:btw which is the main towed-gun of Russian Army??

    Most numerous is D30 howtizer, then comes MSTA-B, then Giatsint-B. I did not count Rapiras here, as they are specific platform, but their numbers would fit somewhere between D30s and MSTAs i assume. As MAIN i guess MSTA-B would be representative.

    Thanks. Rapira is a recoilless rifle


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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  Militarov on Wed Jan 06, 2016 1:25 pm

    George1 wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    George1 wrote:btw which is the main towed-gun of Russian Army??

    Most numerous is D30 howtizer, then comes MSTA-B, then Giatsint-B. I did not count Rapiras here, as they are specific platform, but their numbers would fit somewhere between D30s and MSTAs i assume. As MAIN i guess MSTA-B would be representative.

    Thanks. Rapira is a recoilless rifle

    Rapira would be AT gun in its primary role, however 100m is today nowhere near being powerful enough to fight tanks so they are today mostly used as casual fire support artillery.



    Like this. And its not rly recoiless Very Happy
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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  flamming_python on Wed Jan 06, 2016 5:05 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    GarryB wrote:The 2A65 is the towed version of the MSTA... rather than buying M777 I would prefer to see a towed version of Coalition...

    Besides there is always Grad/Tornado...

    Towed coalition would be probably 6+ tons, that is not light howtizer by any means. What is goal here is to have 152mm howtizer weighting under 4,5 tons so Mi17 can slung it externally.

    Yes but since the Coalition has the longest range of any 152mm gun already, it's towed version can probably sacrifice some barrel length and still manage an impressive range, beating or equalling others of its class. Modern materials and construction can be used, like in the M777, and the 2A61 can be drawn a few lessons from - in terms of what works and what doesn't.
    And of course; fully digital control & sighting systems, GLONASS integration, modern ammo, compatibility with laser-guided shells, and all the rest of it.

    I think it's very feasible to end up with a versatile, towed, road-balanced 152mm gun, good in both mountains and on open ground, and light enough to be slung by Mi-17s.
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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  Militarov on Wed Jan 06, 2016 5:36 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    GarryB wrote:The 2A65 is the towed version of the MSTA... rather than buying M777 I would prefer to see a towed version of Coalition...

    Besides there is always Grad/Tornado...

    Towed coalition would be probably 6+ tons, that is not light howtizer by any means. What is goal here is to have 152mm howtizer weighting under 4,5 tons so Mi17 can slung it externally.

    Yes but since the Coalition has the longest range of any 152mm gun already, it's towed version can probably sacrifice some barrel length and still manage an impressive range, beating or equalling others of its class. Modern materials and construction can be used, like in the M777, and the 2A61 can be drawn a few lessons from - in terms of what works and what doesn't.
    And of course; fully digital control & sighting systems, GLONASS integration, modern ammo, compatibility with laser-guided shells, and all the rest of it.

    I think it's very feasible to end up with a versatile, towed, road-balanced 152mm gun, good in both mountains and on open ground, and light enough to be slung by Mi-17s.

    It surely is possible to make shorter "caliber" long towed version. Actually why not even two, one as field artillery being 52 and one lighter for mountain etc units with 39 caliber for an example. Bofors just finished developing their "heavy" towed 155mm howtizer The FH 77B05 L52 after all which means they still have future.

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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  eehnie on Wed Jan 06, 2016 6:25 pm

    From warfare.be Towed guns over man-portable size:

    Active service / Reserve / Gun:

    564 / 1300 / 2A18M D-30  (is the towed version of the self propelled 2S1)
    456 / 0000 / MT-12 Rapira
    396 / 0600 / 2A65B Msta-B  (is the towed version of the self propelled 2S19)
    131 / 1000 / 2A36 GiatsintB (is the towed version of the self propelled 2S5)
    018 / 0000 / 2B16 Nona-K (is the towed version of the self propelled 2S9)

    2201 / 3900 / Total

    In the archive section are also cited the M-30, M-46 and 2A45B SprutB (is the towed versión of the self propelled 2S25).


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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  George1 on Wed Jan 06, 2016 6:43 pm

    2B16 Nona-K is the most modern to assume?


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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  Militarov on Wed Jan 06, 2016 6:50 pm

    George1 wrote:2B16 Nona-K is the most modern to assume?

    Depends how you look at it but MSTA-B aka 2A65 should be considered newer. Nona-Ks tho were obtained in some numbers at about same time but heavily based on previous designs.
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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  eehnie on Wed Jan 06, 2016 7:13 pm

    George1 wrote:2B16 Nona-K is the most modern to assume?

    From the list 2B16 Nona-K and 2A65B Msta-B are both from the mid 80s. They would be the most recent of them. The Nona-K is still offered to export by Rosoboron Export.

    The towed arms over man-portable size offered still to export are:

    2A18M D-30
    2B16 Nona-K


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