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    Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

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    Austin
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    Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  Austin on Thu Oct 20, 2011 7:46 am

    The Russian army will receive from the satellite-guided bombs
    http://www.izvestia.ru/news/504342

    Moscow Design Bureau "Compass" - one of the major Russian developers of navigation for the Armed Forces - successfully tested GLONASS navigation module for artillery ammunition.

    The new module, created under the "Dynamics", can be installed on new shells, and the existing ones, said, "Izvestia," a source in the Defense Ministry.

    - Module Development "Compass" can be screwed into the head of the artillery shells of 152 mm and above, at the regular place of fuse. It includes a combination fuze, GLONASS receiver and control surfaces - aerodynamic control surfaces, which are arranged in the flight path of the projectile and correct, - said the source "Izvestia".

    In contrast, shells, controlled by a laser beam, the projectile with the module "Dynamics" does not depend on weather conditions and does not require external illumination purposes, so you can quickly hit point targets with known coordinates. Circular error probable modernized so the shell does not exceed 10 m, whereas for conventional 152-mm shells at long range shooting, it may be 100 m or more.

    Russian version of the modernization of ammunition allows the shells with a satellite-guided considerably more expensive than 155-mm projectile American Excalibur from guided by GPS. This missile, equipped with a gas generator and built-in rudder, it is worth more than $ 80 thousand is expected that a large batch of its price should fall to $ 50 thousand Domestic module which allows to upgrade existing missiles in storage, will cost a little more than $ 1 thousand, explained " Izvestia, "a source in the military-industrial complex.

    - The module can be used for both the old shells, as well as new, but in any case it will be much cheaper than American products. Russian scientists have been able to achieve sustainable GLONASS signal reception on the rotating shell, whereas the American "Excalibur" to stop its rotation to get a navigation signal. This greatly complicates and increases the cost of its construction, - the interlocutor of the newspaper.

    According to the chief editor of trade magazine "Arsenal" Victor Murakhovski, the new Russian design - a real revolution in artillery.

    - With the new shell can be reused to reduce the consumption of ammunition. When firing conventional ammunition to the platoon strong point to 1.8 thousand rounds, and then require ten times less. Shooting accuracy modernized missiles do not fall from a distance - it will be the same regardless of whether we shoot a 5 km or 50 km. This allows you to instantly strike any target, the main thing - to know their coordinates, which can be obtained from the reconnaissance drones and other sources - said the expert.

    Murakhovski also noted that the low price of the module allows you to quickly equip the artillery units more guided missiles, with no additional upgrade themselves do not need guns.

    However, the director of the Center for Military Forecasting Anatoly Tsyganok said that for effective use of such shells in the military system lacks precision targeting.

    - Deep exploration to solve other problems, and no guidance on its long-range artillery will not be distracted. Satellite controls all field and there will not be reconfigured for each instrument, - said the Gypsy.

    In his opinion, direct high-precision bombs to unmanned spy planes, which in the Russian army yet.

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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  GarryB on Thu Oct 20, 2011 11:34 am

    Bit of a translation error here:

    Russian version of the modernization of ammunition allows the shells with a satellite-guided considerably more expensive than 155-mm projectile American Excalibur from guided by GPS. This missile, equipped with a gas generator and built-in rudder, it is worth more than $ 80 thousand is expected that a large batch of its price should fall to $ 50 thousand Domestic module which allows to upgrade existing missiles in storage, will cost a little more than $ 1 thousand, explained " Izvestia, "a source in the military-industrial complex.

    I am guessing it is supposed to say the new shells will be considerably less expensive, and that the Excalibur costs 80K to 50K when in mass production while the Russian equivalent costs a little over 1K.

    Also the subject is not really satellite guided bombs, what they are talking about is a new fuse for artillery shells that includes guidance and flight control components to allow a standard shell to become a guided shell... much like the western paveway bomb kits that turn a dumb iron bomb into a laser guided bomb.

    This system can be used on 152mm and larger calibre rounds, and would be an enormous boost to the capability of such weapons as the 2A7 240mm mortar. With this fuse added to the shell you get precision guidance in all weather with a very powerful warhead (120-130kgs), which comes in to the target near vertically so the fragmentation pattern will have few gaps and it will be able to be dropped into valleys or used in cities near tall buildings that would normally block gun artillery.

    (ie if you are in a city and are behind a tall building, most artillery will not be able to get you because the trajectory shape means the building is in the way. With a mortar with a steep near vertical fall to target that building will not protect you.

    The fact that it is cheap and can be retrofitted to older rounds is excellent... with the new C4IR systems the artillery are getting these rounds should be very useful in what ever calibre they will be used on.

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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  Cyberspec on Thu Oct 20, 2011 11:05 pm

    GarryB wrote:Bit of a translation error here:

    I am guessing it is supposed to say the new shells will be considerably less expensive, and that the Excalibur costs 80K to 50K when in mass production while the Russian equivalent costs a little over 1K.

    Also the subject is not really satellite guided bombs, what they are talking about is a new fuse for artillery shells

    Yes, Austin used the machine translation which often comes out the wrong way

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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  GarryB on Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:05 am

    The fact that the Russian fuse costs $1,000 makes it incredibly cheap, and the effectiveness of an artillery barrage will be greatly enhanced with a mere fraction of shells needed to take on point targets.

    For area targets a volley of cheaper shells still makes sense, but the potential is enormous for a range of weapons and shell types.

    It is probably more useful for larger calibre weapons where their low rate of fire would be compensated for with first shot precision, but for lighter weapons where rate of fire can compensate for the lighter projectile the precision will mean they can engage more targets and their lighter weight probably makes them more capable in shoot and scoot roles.

    The 240mm 2S7 is a very specialist weapon and is quite heavy, and perhaps overkill in many situations with its 130kg rounds, but with first round all weather hit performance it becomes a very powerful weapon, especially in the mountains.

    There is possibly room for a return of the 160mm mortar which was popular in the mountains and fired a fairly potent 40kg HE shell, which is comparable to the shells used for 152mm guns.

    Another aspect of this new fuse type is that they are working on new longer barrelled guns with new much longer ranged performance. It is a joint program with the NAVY and ARMY, where the Army model is called Coalition and has a large twin gunned turret with both guns auto fed shells for a high rate of fire out to extended range.
    The Navy version will be used on Destroyer and larger vessels and will be part of the upgrade of the Kirovs.

    On land it will be interesting... perhaps even tube artillery units with MSTAs might have a single Tornado launcher attached to it with SMERCH pods (6 rockets in one pallet of 300mm calibre) firing UAVs that can be launched and flown to the suspected target area to look for targets and to hang around to assess the damage the MSTA battery achieves.

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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  Cyberspec on Fri Oct 21, 2011 7:37 am

    The 240mm 2S7 is still in use but I'm not sure it will be kept in the long run.

    They're replacing (modifying actually) the 2S1 Gvozdika (122mm) SP guns with a the "Host" 120mm SP Mortars. Apparently, the Host is significantly more accurate thanks to it's newer FCS than the Gvozdika even without the use of guided munitions.

    2S1-M Host


    ---

    This Russian Glonass kit for shells sounds similar to a US project...which AFAIK still hasn't entered service

    Precision Guidance Kit (PGK)
    http://www.atk.com/capabilities_defense/cs_ms_w_gp_pgk.asp


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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  GarryB on Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:20 am

    These new Russian fuses might make the 2S7 much more viable as a weapon system.

    Currently the fuse is for 152mm or larger calibre rounds so it might be a while before they reduce it down to allow it to be used with 120mm or 122mm calibre weapons.

    The 120mm mortars might be more accurate but unless they have developed new ammo the 122mm shells will have the range advantage by a significant margin.

    They have already developed a new fuse for their aerial bombs to allow them to be used as sea mines, with this new artillery fuse they are making existing equipment more capable without changing the cost very much... a modern accurate proximity fuse wouldn't be free either.

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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  TheArmenian on Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:03 pm

    How is the in-flight path correction done?

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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  GarryB on Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:21 pm

    According to the article above:

    It includes a combination fuze, GLONASS receiver and control surfaces - aerodynamic control surfaces, which are arranged in the flight path of the projectile and correct, - said the source "Izvestia".

    So the fuse itself has fin controls that will steer the shell to the right path.

    This suggests the "fuse" might be quite big, but then some proximity fuses are quite large too and have lots of fail safes to prevent the detonation of the main charge till the round has been fired.

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    First pictorial evidence that the "Host" is entering service with the Russian Army

    Post  Cyberspec on Mon Oct 24, 2011 2:28 pm

    First pictorial evidence that the "Host" is entering service with the Russian Army. It's received a new designation 2S34 (originally 2S1M)

    "Host" in the 21st Moto Rifle Brigade
    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/94614.html

    The manufacturer, MZ from Perm says the the amount of contracts with the Min of Defence have doubled in 2011. Apart from the "Host", they have orders for Nona-SVK 120mm SP guns/mortars, MRLS and towed mortars

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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  GarryB on Mon Oct 24, 2011 3:23 pm

    These fuses with satellite guidance are for 152mm calibre weapons plus because of the size... I wonder if there is something for smaller calibre weapons like the 120mm, which is rather popular in service and seems to be replacing the 122mm rifled tube artillery.

    For guided shells in 120mm calibre adding Glonass guidance to replace laser homing or to use in addition to laser homing rounds shouldn't be that hard as you could simply put the satellite guidance stuff where the laser homing stuff was and retain all the existing control surfaces etc for actually flying the rounds into the targets.

    The plans to introduce a 45/57mm gun for the next BMP to replace the 30mm and 100mm guns will reduce the direct and indirect HE power of the infantry forces will have to hand, however adding a few extra 120mm Hostas to each unit will restore that fire power, and a combination of laser guided shells and Glonass guided munitions could make up for the extra distance these vehicles will operate from the units they are supporting as their accuracy should still be comparable to direct fire systems with satellite and laser guidance options.

    The obvious advantage of using the 2S1 chassis is that they are amphibious and in service in numbers and have spares and logistics in place and paid for so it should be much cheaper to support in operation.
    Will likely be full of new electronics however and the ammo feeding and handling equipment will likely change to allow for 120mm mortar bombs and shells as well as missiles to be carried.

    The 120mm mortar vehicles seem to be popular in service, especially in mountainous areas where the steep trajectory is useful.

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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  TheArmenian on Mon Oct 24, 2011 7:41 pm

    Cyberspec wrote:First pictorial evidence that the "Host" is entering service with the Russian Army. It's received a new designation 2S34 (originally 2S1M)

    "Host" in the 21st Moto Rifle Brigade
    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/94614.html

    The manufacturer, MZ from Perm says the the amount of contracts with the Min of Defence have doubled in 2011. Apart from the "Host", they have orders for Nona-SVK 120mm SP guns/mortars, MRLS and towed mortars

    Where is the 21st Moto Rifle Brigade based?

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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  Cyberspec on Tue Oct 25, 2011 12:39 am

    TheArmenian wrote:
    Cyberspec wrote:First pictorial evidence that the "Host" is entering service with the Russian Army. It's received a new designation 2S34 (originally 2S1M)

    "Host" in the 21st Moto Rifle Brigade
    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/94614.html

    The manufacturer, MZ from Perm says the the amount of contracts with the Min of Defence have doubled in 2011. Apart from the "Host", they have orders for Nona-SVK 120mm SP guns/mortars, MRLS and towed mortars

    Where is the 21st Moto Rifle Brigade based?

    Orenburg - Southern Russia

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orenburg_Oblast


    GarryB wrote:...The obvious advantage of using the 2S1 chassis is that they are amphibious and in service in numbers and have spares and logistics in place and paid for so it should be much cheaper to support in operation.
    Will likely be full of new electronics however and the ammo feeding and handling equipment will likely change to allow for 120mm mortar bombs and shells as well as missiles to be carried.

    The 120mm mortar vehicles seem to be popular in service, especially in mountainous areas where the steep trajectory is useful.

    The "Host" was chosen instead of the "Vena" (BMP-3 chasis) as more cost effective. It uses elements from the "Vena" and Nona-SVK mounted on the 2S1/MT-LB chasis....I think the MT-LB has better cross country performance compared to the BMP-3

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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  GarryB on Tue Oct 25, 2011 1:56 am

    The "Host" was chosen instead of the "Vena" (BMP-3 chasis) as more cost effective. It uses elements from the "Vena" and Nona-SVK mounted on the 2S1/MT-LB chasis....I think the MT-LB has better cross country performance compared to the BMP-3

    Of course another thing that makes it cheaper is that the chassis for the 2S1 are already made and in service, while the BMP-3 was not made in enormous numbers so producing Vena would require more chassis to be built, while Hosta uses chassis that would otherwise be surplus and scrapped.

    The BMP-3 chassis is a good vehicle, but it is now a dead end as it will be replaced by the Kurganets-25 in the medium brigades and would be too light and too heavy respectively to be used in the heavy or light brigades... and those brigades are getting their own chassis developed anyway.

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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  GarryB on Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:08 am

    The barrel on the Hosta seems rather longer than previous 120mm gun/mortars as fitted to the 2S9.

    If it has the same performance as the Vena, or perhaps even slightly better then in terms of range it might actually be close enough to the 2S1s 122mm gun to make little negative difference in actual performance (while still good economic sense of removing a calibre of artillery from the logistics tail.)

    The difference in shell weight shows the 122mm shell at 21.8kgs with 4kgs of HE with a max firing range of 15.3km, whereas the 120mm standard HE round weighs 19.8kgs but I don't have a number for HE content and range is up to 9km in a standard tube, and 7km-13km for the rocket assisted bomb with the same weight and unknown HE charge.

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    2S34 Chosta

    Post  George1 on Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:09 pm

    2S34 Chosta is modernized 2S1 self-propelled gun with the 122mm 2A31 gun replaced by the 120mm 2A80. Further improvements include a new fire control system, a battlefield observation system and the ability to fire the Kitolov 2 guided ammunition.
    1. Replacements of out-of-date 122-mm gun 2A31 on modern rifled 120-mm 2A80, allowing to fire by the increased destructive power shells, by all kinds of 120-mm mortar rounds of the Soviet/Russian and foreign manufacture, 120-mm high precision guided shells.
    2. Installation of the automated elevation and traverse laying control system;
    3. Installation of automatic survey and orientation system;
    4. Satellite signals reception and initial orientation equipment.


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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  GarryB on Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:32 pm

    The main purpose is to use the 2S1 chassis which is available in numbers and has quite a bit of use left in it.

    The 122mm artillery shell is becoming obsolete, but the 120mm calibre gun mortar is flexible and still very useful.

    By withdrawing the 122mm artillery calibre they save on logistics, but the vehicles are in service and already paid for so a simple upgrade with a new gun is relatively cheap and simple and in operational terms doesn't effect performance very much as the 122mm shell has a range of 15km and the guided 12mm shell range of 12km, while the 120mm gun/mortar has a range of 12.5km with rocket assisted shells and 9km with guided shells.

    For units where the 152mm guns are too big, the 120mm gun/mortar is just as good as the 122mm in most areas, but being a gun/mortar can use a wider range of ammo types, with steeper trajectories and better fragmentation patterns.

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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  George1 on Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:42 pm

    I read that 2S31 Vena is very expensive that's why the arms modernizes the 2s1 with a 120mm 2A80

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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  GarryB on Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:58 am

    The other factor to keep in mind is that they have large numbers of 2S1 vehicles in service and they have trained men to maintain and operate them, plus a spares reserve.

    The only problem is the calibre of the gun.

    The original replacement was the Vena, but the Vena uses the BMP-3 chassis which is about to be replaced in service by the Kurganets-25.

    Even if the Vena was not expensive, it will not be free and in service already in numbers.

    I rather suspect what they will do is use the gun and many of the systems designed for the Vena on the 2S1 for the moment and then introduce a Vena based on the Kurganets-25 vehicle chassis when it becomes available.

    It would be the most efficient use of available resources in the current situation.


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    Will the vena go into service?

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sun Aug 12, 2012 1:14 pm

    Whats the situation on the vena airborne howitzer? Is it in service already or the Rus army brass has rejected it? Even if this vehicle is cancelled will there be a kurganets or boomerang vehicle with similar capabilities as the vena?

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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  TheArmenian on Sun Aug 12, 2012 6:40 pm

    Vena is 80-90ies technology based on BMP-3 chassis.
    Doubt it will be procured as the Kurganets platform is around the corner.

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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  GarryB on Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:15 am

    They will likely adopt the Kurganets-25 version of it, which will have all new digital sensors and electronics developed for it that will be standardised with the other vehicle families.

    The thread about armata with the photos of the line of models including a large model of a tank at one end with a gatling gun and perhaps a short barrel cannon or long barrel grenade launcher and a bit main gun is perhaps an example of what the main gun of the Vena has evolved into.

    It is a 120mm rifled howitzer/mortar type weapon which can fire a range of shells with bagged propellent charges, but also mortar bombs and mortar and artillery fired guided missiles.

    For the heavier vehicles that can handle it the 120mm rifled weapon is useful as it combines the features of mortar and howitzer and long range delivery of laser guided missiles all in one package.

    Vena weighs about 20 tons so it is likely that the Boomerang-25 and Kurganets-25 should also be able to carry it with ease and of course the armata should be able to carry this weapon too.

    For the Boomerang-10 it might be a case of that vehicle having the 100mm rifled gun of the BMP-3 if the vehicle is too light to handle the larger and more powerful 120mm rifled weapon.


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    Analysis Of Key Artillery Capabilities To Prioritise

    Post  Sujoy on Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:54 pm




    I found this analysis on the brochure of a Defense Conference being held in the UK . This analysis offers an indicative examination of artillery requirements over the next ten years .

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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:20 pm

    very interesting chart. Do you think by 2100 many militaries will have railgun equipped vehicles and firearms in service?

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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  Sujoy on Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:12 am

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:very interesting chart. Do you think by 2100 many militaries will have railgun equipped vehicles and firearms in service?

    I know I will not live to see 2100 Very Happy . I believe that we will see a greater use of Directed Energy Weapons 10 years from now and majority of the wars will be fought by machines as we move from "man in the loop" to "man on the loop".

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    Re: Russian Gun Artillery: Discussion Thread

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:32 am

    I would predict that by 2020 there will be experimental railguns mounted on ships... likely related to EM catapult technology.

    By 2040 I would expect ground artillery and tanks will have them and the odd crew served weapon might have them too.

    The main problem I see is getting lots of electrical energy and making it compact and portable enough.

    For ships there is plenty of room and plenty of power, while land vehicles would be easier than small arms but would still offer challenges... mainly in the sense that they not only have to actually work, they have to also offer a significant performance increase over conventional propellent weapons which are much more mature technologies.


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