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    Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

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    TheGeorgian

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  TheGeorgian on Tue Jun 24, 2014 5:41 pm

    Asf wrote:
    Let me guess. It's like Ukraine - there are ukrainian commoners in the South-East who are mislead by russian terrorists and criminals and is waiting to be freed by ukrainian army, but still there are bombardments of civilian areas, because in reality people dosen't support the goverment. Seems like a working scheme.

    I'm just pointing out his methods, not approving them.

    Well on that matter yeah, looks very similar. But the conflict itself. I'd rather compare it with Abkhazia but only on the part were the separatists are getting aid from Russia but no direct intervention by Russian forces. But not by population, because in Abkhazia Georgians were the majority in the 90s.
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    Regular

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  Regular on Wed Jun 25, 2014 2:17 am

    macedonian wrote:
    Regular wrote:Can I ask You where did You learn what is definition of a country? It is clearly different then mine. Maybe I'm wrong? Tell me again why excatly Georgia wasn't a country as Georgian SSR?
    No need for a epic tales about True state thing. Wrong person. So called true state did good job for us. My father was 1 of 4 children who survived socialistic paradise in Sibir.  
    You might be right about failed states and lack of purpose, but I remember life in soviet union too good not to feel very nostalgic.

    Oh, don't mind him...
    He just want's to troll from time to time...he's OK though...(I hope).
    Why should I don't mind him? He is alright fella. Very informative when it comes to Russian weapons and equipment. If I don't agree with someone doesn't mean I hate the person straight away Very Happy I hate people without their own POV and opinions.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:10 am

    In the early stages of the operation Georgian army was fighting Ossetian volunteers

    And if Russian forces invaded Alaska the first resistance would likely be armed civilians till the military got ready to fight back. If the Russian forces made their way to Alaskas capital city and started bombarding it with artillery... first aiming at any US military bases there and then targeting the general population I am sure most Americans will be the first to say... well we bombed the crap out of Japan and Germany and Korea and Vietnam and lots and lots of other places... who are we to say they are in the wrong... Hell I don't need to be a genius to realise the commander that ordered the artillery attack would face trial at the end of the war for war crimes...

    Something like that is called a war crime, not genocide ....

    Actually thanks to Kosovo we now have clarity... it is actually called ethnic cleansing.

    Saakashvili made some effective PR and bought some EU parlimentarians on his side. His fellow regime members are not able to run around freely in Georgia.

    So what you are saying is that he is protected and will likely never be punished for his crimes... that is not helping your goals at unification.

    We will see about it. In the end it's all up to Russia.

    Georgia has not given them many options.

    Since when is large scale military operation a rescue mission ?

    Grenada. In fact if you listen to the US state department most US operations on foreign soil are mounted to save democracy and peace...

    We lost quite a lot of military there too and the blame game is carried out by both sides.

    Except Russia didn't really get much of a choice in this situation... or do you think Russia should have left South Ossetia to its fate?


    Don't take me wrong man, but when your city is invaded by a huge army you will take that opportunity to ambush and destroy them if they do it in such a clumsy way. It is called warfare.
    Except when it is South Ossetia because they shouldn't resist the Georgian Army at all... right?

    I am not "balancing" it, I'm pointing out the two-sided purpose of that. The Georgians especialy entered the city when it was evacuated. They most likely would have hesitated if that wasn't the case.

    So what you are saying is that the Georgian forces started randomly shelling a large city and only entered it when it became clear people were leaving... of course I would suggest the vast majority didn't leave... they likely took shelter in their basements. I guess you mean if they hadn't appeared to leave the Georgian forces would have continued shelling?

    the Shelling was to depopulation the area?

    Only that nobody is claiming that. I allready pointed out in the beginning that the 2008 conflict particularly was all our fault.

    Not Georgias fault. Suck Arse Milli Vanillis fault.

    No. Because you know .... I kinda know my people and what they think either about Russians, Abkhaz and Ossetians and if something like that was present then it would be rather directed against the Abkhazians and not Ossetians .... kinda logical.

    Except that the Abhazians were and are better able to defend themselves. After Georgian forces attacked South Ossetia the Abkhazians moved on Georgian forces and took back quite a bit of territory... all without Russian help.

    We all know Abkhazia wasn't attacked only because of the Russian Army stopped Saakashvilli from solving problems by force.

    Yes, If Russia had done nothing Abkhazia would have been next...

    Without any bias, I can say that our goverment ( apart of sucking too much EU **** and not consequently prosecuting Saakashvili ) does everything they can to improve relations with Russia. Russia does seem interested in that too with allowing us limited trade into the Federation and also air travels etc. Yet they still condinue regressive border provocations and that doesn't speak much for cool headed. We can be as cool headed as we want, we don't even deploy any kind of military or police along the DMZ when such things happen ( it's also because if we did, we would recognize their newly drawn borders ). But actions like that will only increase tension over time and that should not happen. We are doing our part. Russian side could start with reverting that fence policy. We're in the 21st century and don't need another wall ....

    You want good relations with Russia? You just had to ask me... I can tell you straight away.

    First try Saakashvilli and put him in jail for a very long period... preferably life. Stop talking about NATO and make a public declaration you are not interested in joining NATO or the EU any time soon.

    Countries have fears and interests. Russia is feeling encircled by US yes men... or should that be US yes countries.

    Any other action on your part is just talk.

    Of course that is what you can do to get Russia on side... to placate the South Ossetians and Abkhazians will require rather more work and rather more time... you might have to wait a generation... putting Saakashvili in jail for a long time will certainly be a very positive step for these two countries too however.

    Can I ask You where did You learn what is definition of a country? It is clearly different then mine. Maybe I'm wrong? Tell me again why excatly Georgia wasn't a country as Georgian SSR?

    Pretty obvious... Georgia was a state... or do you think western Australia is a country... or Alabama or Ohio?


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    TheGeorgian

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  TheGeorgian on Wed Jun 25, 2014 1:05 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    So what you are saying is that he is protected and will likely never be punished for his crimes... that is not helping your goals at unification.

    How is that entirely our fault ? if he didn't flee and was still in Georgia, he'd be prosecuted like the rest. We don't simply kill someone like him to prevent him from escaping. Now Ukrainians and EU are holding their hands over him. That means EU isn't treating him as criminal while we have plenty of trials waiting for him. Including political murder, assasination, provoking and staging false operations, warmongering, torture, opression, destroying independent media and businesses. Selling lands without consolidating anyone. Allmost completly wiping out Georgia's agricultural capabilities. For EU it is enough of us to just mention his name and they allready drop a shitstorm of criticism on our goverment.

    Georgia has not given them many options.

    .... Poor Russians, evil Georgians.

    Except Russia didn't really get much of a choice in this situation... or do you think Russia should have left South Ossetia to its fate?

    1. I did expect Russian intervention.
    2. Bloodshed should have stopped in any case
    3. I do not approve any kind of foreign intervention into my country. Period.

    Except when it is South Ossetia because they shouldn't resist the Georgian Army at all... right?

    .... and I said or implied such a thing where .... ?

    the Shelling was to depopulation the area?

    Tskhinvali was being evacuated days before the war and that pretty much attracted Saakashvili to use momentum.

    Use common sense please. There was no genocide. All you people are doing is at best assuming there were signs of it or there would have been one if the Russian army didn't intervene. That's not proving something that did not happen. Artillery barrage on Tskhinali is not ethnic cleansing. It's higly  inapropriate use of military force also GAF has it's own version on that matter. From Ossetian POV it could surely look like that because their town got damaged and fighting took place in half the villages in the area. But they are overplaying it even less than you are. Please stick to facts. FACT is that actual ethnic cleansing happened to the 15-20.000 Georgians who lived in Tskhinvali and Kokoiti made it more then clear that those IDPs will never return to their homes again and from Georgian POV there has been much more damage caused on Georgian habitats in South Ossetia and outside the region towards Gori, than anywhere where actual fighting took place.

    You have three things that factualy happened. Georgian assault on Tskhinvali which was beaten back, which was partialy very inappropriate and undisciplined and caused a lot of damage.

    Then you have Russian counterattack on Georgian held positions in villages etc which inlcuded air sorites not only there but all of Georgia to take out military capabilities and you have Ossetian soldiers / volunteers looting campaigns to sack or destroy Georgian villages along the way almost up to Gori. As sort of revenge to what happened to them.

    The result of all that is plenty of civilian casualties on both sides. People are still missing and entire villages ceased to exist. Mostly on Georgian side. Will you denie that too .... ?

    Except that the Abhazians were and are better able to defend themselves. After Georgian forces attacked South Ossetia the Abkhazians moved on Georgian forces and took back quite a bit of territory... all without Russian help.

    It's not because they are awesome. It's because the 5th brigade left all it's positions there without a fight amidst the one sided ceasefire agreement. There were enough entrenchament and strategicaly advantigous hidden emplacements, minefields, traps, hidden weapon caches etc that the Abkhaz army would have never penetrated those defenses on their own.

    Stop talking about NATO and make a public declaration you are not interested in joining NATO or the EU any time soon.

    I very well know the Russian situation from their POV and I would probably seek a similar policy if I was in charge of that country. Only that in the meantime I would also improve industry / economy / infrastructure etc. Build agriculture, invest in technology, be less dependent on foreign countries  ....

    I am against Georgia joining EU because it will end up like the rest of eastern countries in EU. Being a slave without voice.

    Sure. You expect only things to be done from our side. How about offering us also what we want. Maybe get yourself into our positions as well for a moment .... ?
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    GarryB

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jun 25, 2014 2:31 pm

    How is that entirely our fault ? if he didn't flee and was still in Georgia, he'd be prosecuted like the rest. We don't simply kill someone like him to prevent him from escaping.

    Take active steps to bring him to justice. Have a trial... if he does not want to return and defend himself try him anyway. Freeze his assets.

    ie take reasonable steps to make it clear what you think of his actions... otherwise it makes you look like you condone his actions and only pretend to be upset for image sake.

    we have plenty of trials waiting for him. Including political murder, assasination, provoking and staging false operations, warmongering, torture, opression, destroying independent media and businesses. Selling lands without consolidating anyone. Allmost completly wiping out Georgia's agricultural capabilities.

    Try him in absentia... if he chooses not to defend himself and hide somewhere chewing ties... then you as a taxpayer will not have to foot the bill for a long trial and South Ossetia know there is no chance he will come back and do it again and future Georgian presidents will not try the same thing so easily.

    For EU it is enough of us to just mention his name and they allready drop a shitstorm of criticism on our goverment.

    You know you are doing right by your people if the EU or the US criticises you.

    .... Poor Russians, evil Georgians.

    No. Poor cornered Russians given very little choice in the matter. Evil Suck Arse Milli Vanilli for dragging Georgia into a war it could never win, whose objectives could never be met even if it succeeded... what sort of South Ossetia do you think it would be occupied by Georgian forces... do you think displaced Georgian families could return and be welcomed with open arms?

    3. I do not approve any kind of foreign intervention into my country. Period.

    Most of the artillery fire was launched from Georgian territory... do you think the Russians are idiots?

    Russia does not approve of its international peacekeepers on the ground by signed agreement with Georgia being slaughtered via artillery... the difference is that they had the military might to ensure their will be done. The best chance for you to get your wish of no Russian intervention was to not attack South Ossetia in the first place.

    .... and I said or implied such a thing where .... ?

    So now you are saying the South Ossetian forces had every right to engage invading Georgian forces.

    Tskhinvali was being evacuated days before the war and that pretty much attracted Saakashvili to use momentum.

    I have never read any evidence of that. If they didn't expect the attack why would they be evacuating?

    You have three things that factualy happened. Georgian assault on Tskhinvali which was beaten back, which was partialy very inappropriate and undisciplined and caused a lot of damage.

    Then you have Russian counterattack on Georgian held positions in villages etc which inlcuded air sorites not only there but all of Georgia to take out military capabilities and you have Ossetian soldiers / volunteers looting campaigns to sack or destroy Georgian villages along the way almost up to Gori. As sort of revenge to what happened to them.

    The result of all that is plenty of civilian casualties on both sides. People are still missing and entire villages ceased to exist. Mostly on Georgian side. Will you denie that too .... ?

    Well at least the claim that Russian forces were invading South Ossetia and Georgian forces went in to try to stop them is off the list... that is what Saakashvili was claiming to justify his treacherous attack on people he called his brothers.

    When you set a fire in your brothers bedroom you can't claim innocence when your house burns down. The fact that your things got burned too...

    But they are your brothers, you have treated them so well before and since... why would they attack Georgian villages except if maybe they don't feel you have been treating them like brothers over the last few years...

    Or it could be a group of idiots like in the Ukraine who have taken things into hand for their own agenda.

    When you start a war you have to take responsibility for the actions of idiots as well...

    It's not because they are awesome. It's because the 5th brigade left all it's positions there without a fight amidst the one sided ceasefire agreement. There were enough entrenchament and strategicaly advantigous hidden emplacements, minefields, traps, hidden weapon caches etc that the Abkhaz army would have never penetrated those defenses on their own.

    The botched attack on South Ossetia was an opportunity to take advantage of Georgia while its attention was elsewhere. Very much common sense though of the two sides the Abkhazian forces seem to be the better equipped and more capable.

    Sure. You expect only things to be done from our side. How about offering us also what we want. Maybe get yourself into our positions as well for a moment .... ?

    There was no point talking to Georgia when Saakshvili was in charge. Now at least they are listening. If you killed US peacekeepers do you think they would be listening even now? Ask Cuba if the US can hold a grudge and for how long.

    Russia will be interested in good relations with Georgia, but they have plenty of time... Georgia isn't going anywhere... if they can't deal with you now then 20 or 30 years time is OK too.

    To be honest I think it is more in Georgias interests for good relations with Russia, because South Ossetia is not going to come around any time soon if at all if she can rely on Russian support... if Russia starts pushing her back to the table with Georgia... well that would be your best chance... but as I say you are going to have to drop the "We both were in the wrong" line even if it is not totally untrue. Try to blame the car you ran into on the wrong side of the road... obviously if they hadn't been there there wouldn't have been an accident but at the end of the day in every sense of the words Georgia crossed the line and I thought despite all the crap on TV about Russia violating soverign territory and being too aggressove, that in reality they were very restrained and controlled... like I have mentioned... if Milosovich had shelled NATO peacekeepers there would have been regime change... and in the case of Kosovo Serbia had a UNSC resolution declaring Kosovo as being part of Serbia... Georgia has the word of a deceased dictator... ironcially reviled by NATO and the EU and the US who so virulantly support Georgia in its violent criminal attempts to reclaim South Ossetia.


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    TheGeorgian

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  TheGeorgian on Wed Jun 25, 2014 4:12 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    ie take reasonable steps to make it clear what you think of his actions... otherwise it makes you look like you condone his actions and only pretend to be upset for image sake.

    Look, I have a bit more political insight on that. The Georgian Dream movement compromised/partialy still compromises the majority of opposition parties which ran against Saakashvilis national party. That overwhelming force was able to kick them out. Now what we have is that this coalition is the ruling pary and the only real opposition left to the goverment is .... the national party. The problem here is that whenever we prosecute one of Mishas entourage, there is an outcry from US/EU. Accusation of political persecution against the opposition which is supposedly "regressive", "undemocratic" blah blah and demonize us, continuesly interrupting the legal court processes. I have to admit though, every time our goverment pussys out and bends to their demands to keep it a bit down with putting Saakashvili and his gang to trial makes me mad and the entire population too. They literaly threaten us to cease all processes regarding EU if we keep imprisoning them.

    But I think our goverment will be more consequent on that matter once we signed the association agreement tomorrow. They are not stupid. They know EU membership isn't anything realistic for the next decades. The most important goal right now was to have access to the European market which will be beneficial for the entire region, not only Georgia.


    The best chance for you to get your wish of no Russian intervention was to not attack South Ossetia in the first place.

    heh .... we agree on that.

    So now you are saying the South Ossetian forces had every right to engage invading Georgian forces.

    from their POV sure. Starting such a war shouldn't have happened in first place. People just tried to defend their homes.

    Well at least the claim that Russian forces were invading South Ossetia and Georgian forces went in to try to stop them is off the list... that is what Saakashvili was claiming to justify his treacherous attack on people he called his brothers.

    I didn't even believe that nonsense the days the war started. Saakashvili himself said on TV he was "restoring constitutional order" and I couldn't believe what I was withnessing, instantly concerned about where Russians were and what they are gonna do. Then when Russians intervened he came up with the invasion story because he had lost.

    When you start a war you have to take responsibility for the actions of idiots as well...

    it is just so frustrating when something like that happens and you can't do shit about it.

    The botched attack on South Ossetia was an opportunity to take advantage of Georgia while its attention was elsewhere. Very much common sense though of the two sides the Abkhazian forces seem to be the better equipped and more capable.

    Abkhaz are definitly more capable but we are talking about the Kodori Gorge. When Kitovani was in the Gorge the Abkhaz didn't even dare to come down on him and he had a single battalion controling that area. The Georgians took those heights and deployed an entire brigade. Plus unlike Kitovani, they were busy fortifying that area over the years. Now the Abkhaz can benefit from that ....

    Russia will be interested in good relations with Georgia, but they have plenty of time... Georgia isn't going anywhere... if they can't deal with you now then 20 or 30 years time is OK too.

    would be nice if a bit sooner ....
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    GarryB

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jun 26, 2014 10:13 am

    But I think our goverment will be more consequent on that matter once we signed the association agreement tomorrow. They are not stupid. They know EU membership isn't anything realistic for the next decades. The most important goal right now was to have access to the European market which will be beneficial for the entire region, not only Georgia.

    Well, you have to do what you have to do, but until those guilty parties are in prison or there are warrants for their arrest don't expect Russia to suddenly treat you like an ally... everybody paid a high price for MS and his stupid desperate actions... but if you look at Russias calls for UN meetings and international discussion which the US basically blocked and the fact that the US immediately demonised Russia and made Georgia look like the victim suggests strongly MS was encouraged in his stupid actions.

    It was also a huge wake up call for Russia... that was when they really started to realise the US has no intentions of being friends or allies and that no matter what Russia is the bad guy and no matter what... whether it is in Kosovo or Syria or South Ossetia or the Kurile Islands it is pretty clear that no matter what the situation the US will look to see where Russia fits in and then choose an opposing position... Serbs are the bad guys, Syrian Dictator is the bad guy with Al Quada being the good guys!!!, and If Japan had used for to take back the Kurile Islands then the US would have backed Japan to the hilt.

    The best thing for Russia is that it spurred real action to create a conventional military force that could defend Russias interests anywhere inside her own territory or on her own borders. Hense a need for helicopter carriers and an ongoing military spend.

    heh .... we agree on that.

    A no brainer for you... a Georgian... for me, a New Zealander on the other side of the world... but not obvious for MS... but I suspect it was part of the plan from your US allies... they wanted to push Russia away from Georgia and a tiny chance of another conflict on her borders that might turn into a guerilla war for a couple of years... or reignite seperatist unrest in the whole general area...

    it is just so frustrating when something like that happens and you can't do shit about it.

    It should be a mandatory world wide law that if a head of state or elected government wants to drag their country into a war that all the children of members of government and opposition should be conscripted and have to serve in front line positions. I think when they have something personal at stake they will be a lot less keen to use military force to solve political issues.

    You don't amputate a leg to help with a psychological disorder.

    would be nice if a bit sooner ....

    I agree... Russia doesn't need new territory... what it desperately needs is better relations with all its neighbours.


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    Vann7

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  Vann7 on Fri Jun 27, 2014 6:52 am

    Interesting documentary about abkhazia..



    The country is truly a tourist place and amazing nature and lakes. it will be a fantastic zone to develop and modern resorts and continuation of
    Sochi for Eco-Tourism.


    Last edited by Vann7 on Fri Jun 27, 2014 7:35 am; edited 1 time in total

    Firebird

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  Firebird on Fri Jun 27, 2014 4:46 pm

    Vann7 wrote:Interesting documentary about abkhazia..



    The country is truly a tourist place and amazing nature and lakes.  it will be a fantastic zone to develop and modern resorts and continuation of
    Sochi for Eco-Tourism.

    Russia (and places that are "almost Russia") have some fantastic tourist destinations.
    Things holding it back:-
    flights, visa hassles, question marks over customer service, fear of terrorism/perception that crime is bad, lack of marketing.
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    TheGeorgian

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  TheGeorgian on Fri Jun 27, 2014 4:56 pm

    Firebird wrote:
    Russia (and places that are "almost Russia")

    that's neither Russia nor "almost Russia". I don't think Abkhazians like to hear that too.

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  Firebird on Fri Jun 27, 2014 6:03 pm

    TheGeorgian wrote:
    Firebird wrote:
    Russia (and places that are "almost Russia")

    that's neither Russia nor "almost Russia". I don't think Abkhazians like to hear that too.

    But the text Vann had added said "continuation" of Sochi. And Sochi is ofcourse Russian.

    Many Abkhazians have Russian passports. And the (albeit ignorant) perception in the West is that
    its "sort of Russian" in that it was part of the USSR, has Ru citizens and broke away from Georgia.
    Infact, so called educated people in the EU refer to most ex Warsaw pact peoples as "Russian". Be that Slovak, Bulgarian, Ukrainian or whatever. Ofcourse they aren't, but it shows the psychology.

    I personally consider much of the Ukraine as "Russian" personally. Because when my own family started to leave it, it had been Russian Empire and then Ukrainian only in administrative terms, as it was part of the same country as Russia.

    There's also the issue of whether a republic in the Russian Fedn is actually Russian or not. (Just as its speculated that at some pt Abkh might join the Union State).
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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  Hannibal Barca on Fri Jun 27, 2014 6:12 pm

    TheGeorgian wrote:
    Firebird wrote:
    Russia (and places that are "almost Russia")

    that's neither Russia nor "almost Russia". I don't think Abkhazians like to hear that too.

    But much more they are not European Unionists so since Georgia leadership decided to take sides.....
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    TheGeorgian

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  TheGeorgian on Fri Jun 27, 2014 7:10 pm

    2014-06-27
    Hannibal Barca wrote:
    But much more they are not European Unionists so since Georgia leadership decided to take sides.....

    You make no sense. People in the entire region desire better living conditions. EU has absolutly nothing to do with us having fought wars against eachother. If the Abkhazians were accepted independent and offered to join EU, most of them people would hope for nothing better than that. Just because of the "better prospect".

    and also the decision was made by the Georgian people, not some goverment. If that decision was inspired by false promisses, illusions or whatsoever is a different question. But it's the people's choice and this government simply continues that policy. So far Russia has understood that not every step taken by Georgia that has just remotely something to do with EU process, like the AA, is a bad thing and it's good to see that the other side also shows reason. For us it is dangerous to be solely dependet on Russian market and it is less a threat to have a pro-EU Georgia with neutral or good relations with Kremlin than "loosing" Ukraine.
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    Viktor

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  Viktor on Fri Jun 27, 2014 7:45 pm

    TheGeorgian wrote:You make no sense. People in the entire region desire better living conditions.

    You have to understand that EU has nothing in common with better living standards. Just the opposite.

    You have nothing to hope for.
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    Hannibal Barca

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  Hannibal Barca on Fri Jun 27, 2014 8:04 pm

    TheGeorgian wrote:2014-06-27
    Hannibal Barca wrote:
    But much more they are not European Unionists so since Georgia leadership decided to take sides.....

    You make no sense. People in the entire region desire better living conditions. EU has absolutly nothing to do with us having fought wars against eachother. If the Abkhazians were accepted independent and offered to join EU, most of them people would hope for nothing better than that. Just because of the "better prospect".

    and also the decision was made by the Georgian people, not some goverment. If that decision was inspired by false promisses, illusions or whatsoever is a different question. But it's the people's choice and this government simply continues that policy. So far Russia has understood that not every step taken by Georgia that has just remotely something to do with EU process, like the AA, is a bad thing and it's good to see that the other side also shows reason. For us it is dangerous to be solely dependet on Russian market and it is less a threat to have a pro-EU Georgia with neutral or good relations with Kremlin than "loosing" Ukraine.


    OK so you play the West card. Accept the risks, the gains and the loses as a man and stop crying like a b-word !
    You can't have it both ways in life that's for sure.
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    TheGeorgian

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  TheGeorgian on Fri Jun 27, 2014 8:17 pm

    Viktor wrote:
    TheGeorgian wrote:You make no sense. People in the entire region desire better living conditions.

    You have to understand that EU has nothing in common with better living standards. Just the opposite.

    You have nothing to hope for.

    You misunderstand me. I know what it would mean for Georgia. That's why I don't wish it to go futher but profitable relations with EU solely. The majority of the people however have hopes because when they see how people live like in Germany for isntance, Europe seems pretty sound.
    But it is wrong to say EU has nothing in common with better living conditions ! it certainly has. Like I know how much better life here is. At least on the matter of having more chances to make a man out of yourself then over there. I would have never been able to achieve the same in Tbilisi for instance. However it would be foolishly naive to assume EU membership would do the same to poor little Georgia.

    Hannibal Barca wrote:
    OK so you play the West card. Accept the risks, the gains and the loses as a man and stop crying like a b-word !
    You can't have it both ways in life that's for sure.

    .... leave the diplomacy to us  Wink
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    Hannibal Barca

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  Hannibal Barca on Fri Jun 27, 2014 8:33 pm

    TheGeorgian wrote:
    Viktor wrote:
    TheGeorgian wrote:You make no sense. People in the entire region desire better living conditions.

    You have to understand that EU has nothing in common with better living standards. Just the opposite.

    You have nothing to hope for.

    You misunderstand me. I know what it would mean for Georgia. That's why I don't wish it to go futher but profitable relations with EU solely. The majority of the people however have hopes because when they see how people live like in Germany for isntance, Europe seems pretty sound.
    But it is wrong to say EU has nothing in common with better living conditions ! it certainly has. Like I know how much better life here is. At least on the matter of having more chances to make a man out of yourself then over there. I would have never been able to achieve the same in Tbilisi for instance. However it would be foolishly naive to assume EU membership would do the same to poor little Georgia.

    Hannibal Barca wrote:
    OK so you play the West card. Accept the risks, the gains and the loses as a man and stop crying like a b-word !
    You can't have it both ways in life that's for sure.

    .... leave the diplomacy to us  Wink



    What's wrong with you and your inability to understand simple realities?
    Russia says come with me (EAU) else I will destroy you
    EU says come with me else I will destroy you so you pick sides. That's all.
    Qatar is richest than Europe ever was why you don't go ally with them?
    Edit: Of course you can stay neutral and investment oriented but you are too short sighted and too corrupted and too backward to go this way
    And stop combine individual level with national it is worlds apart.
    And are you sure you don't combine PAST ACCOMPLISHMENTS? What you see in Europe is the past what you see in Asia is the future,
    combining London with Moscow is simply retarded.
    But anyway, I much like Georgia signing west puppetship since I much prefer conquest and slaughter over signs and treaties, probably it's just me,
    but this Putin guy brakes my fun for the moment anyway.


    Last edited by Hannibal Barca on Fri Jun 27, 2014 8:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    TR1

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  TR1 on Fri Jun 27, 2014 8:35 pm

    TheGeorgian wrote:
    Firebird wrote:
    Russia (and places that are "almost Russia")

    that's neither Russia nor "almost Russia". I don't think Abkhazians like to hear that too.

    Seriously, that sounds ridiculous.

    Kavkaz is Kavkaz. Much of it is politically part of Russia, it is not "almost Russia".
    That is like saying, Europe is so pretty, and Russia is almost Europe.
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    TheGeorgian

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  TheGeorgian on Fri Jun 27, 2014 10:09 pm

    Hannibal Barca wrote:
    EU says come with me else I will destroy you so you pick sides. That's all.

    What dimension you livin in .... ?


    Qatar is richest than Europe ever was why you don't go ally with them?

    yeah right. Why don't YOU go ally with them then if it's that easy. Because you know, it's not like it would be up to you to be allowed to ally with Qatar anyways ....

    Surprise. It is not.

    Edit: Of course you can stay neutral and investment oriented
    but you are too short sighted and too corrupted and too backward to go this way

    good edit there I-net commando. Tell us more about other peoples. Give me some amusement.

    what you see in Asia is the future

    Asia will go down faster than it rose up. Much harder then EU's downfall.

    combining London with Moscow is simply retarded.

    Retarded is the way this retarded species behaves right now.

    But anyway, I much like Georgia signing west puppetship
    since I much prefer conquest and slaughter over signs and treaties
    , probably it's just me,
    but this Putin guy brakes my fun for the moment anyway.

    You should be prevented to ever enter politics. Play more Total War games instead.
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    George1

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  George1 on Thu Jul 31, 2014 3:02 pm

    Russia plans to suspend free trade agreement with Georgia

    MOSCOW, July 30, /ITAR-TASS/. Russia plans to suspend the 1994 agreement on free trade with Georgia which signed an association agreement with the European Union.

    Association agreements were signed at the end of July with Georgia and Moldova, and the economic part of the association agreement with Ukraine. Documents point to harmonisation of the three countries’ laws to align with European legislation and establishment of a free trade zone with the European Union.

    Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev said with this in view that Russia could take measures to protect its economy as Georgia, Ukraine and Moldova are also in a zone of free trade with Russia.

    Earlier reports on Wednesday said the Ministry of Economic Development had drafted a government instruction to impose import duties on goods from Ukraine.

    Import duties are to be paid, on 130 items, in particular on beef, pork, cheeses, farmer cheese and chocolate, as well as pipes, clothes, cosmetics, construction materials, cars and other goods.

    The Russian Ministry of Economic Development has also drafted a government resolution that can unilaterally introduce import duties for Moldovan products.

    The measure may apply to such products as meat, fruit and vegetables, grain, sugar, beer, wine, and furniture - 19 in all.

    As in the case with Ukraine, the duties will be identical to those used for countries which enjoy the most favoured nation status in trade with Russia.

    At present, Moldovan products are imported to Russia duty free as both countries have signed a free trade agreement.

    Russia can adopt non-zero rates according to Annex 6 to the CIS free trade agreement. If imports from a country that is party to the treaty grow so that to harm the Russian market, Moscow may abolish preferences and impose a basic customs tariff.
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    George1

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  George1 on Mon Nov 24, 2014 12:51 pm

    Putin, Abkhazian president to meet, sign Strategic Partnership Treaty

    The top-level talks will also touch upon urgent issues of bilateral relations and interaction in the regional security sphere

    MOSCOW, November 24. /TASS/. Russian President Vladimir Putin will on Monday meet with Abkhazian President Raul Khadzhimba, who is arriving in Russia on Putin’s invitation, in the southern Russian Black Sea resort of Sochi, the Kremlin reported.

    Russia-Abkhazia strategic partnership treaty to provide for coordinated foreign policy

    The two leaders are expected to sign the Russian-Abkhazian Treaty on Allied Relations and Strategic Partnership, the statement said.

    The top-level talks will also touch upon urgent issues of bilateral relations and interaction in the regional security sphere.

    On Sunday, Khadzhimba said the signing of the treaty will become “one more step in strengthening our relations with Russia.”

    Speaking about advantages provided by the treaty, the Abkhazian leader said: “We have the opportunity to ensure our own long-term security. And we certainly are assuming commitments to ensure the security of our ally - Russia. These are equal relations of two sovereign states.”

    Two days before, he also stressed that the treaty underlines Abkhazia’s sovereignty and independence.

    On November 20, the Russian government submitted to Putin a proposal to sign the Treaty on Allied Relations and Strategic Partnership with Abkhazia.

    The treaty in particular envisions that the Russian Federation “will in all possible ways contribute to strengthening the international ties of the Republic of Abkhazia, including expansion of the range of states that officially recognized it, and creation of conditions for the admission of the Republic of Abkhazia to international organizations and associations, including those established on the initiative and/or with assistance from the Russian Federation.”

    The document also says that should one of the sides come under aggression (armed attack) from any state or a group of states, “this will be considered as aggression [armed attack] also against the other State party.” In this case, the sides will grant each other “the necessary assistance, including military, and render support by available means to exercise the right to collective defense.”

    The treaty stipulates the establishment of a Joint Group of Forces of the Russian Federation’s Armed Forces and Abkhazia’s Armed Forces to repel aggression. It will be established not later than a year since the treaty’s entry into force.

    Russia is to provide funds to modernize Abkhazia’s army not later than three years since the treaty’s coming into force, including stage-by-stage unification of standards of military administration, logistical assistance, monetary allowances and social guarantees of servicemen. Abkhazia’s Armed Forces will also be trained and equipped with modern armaments.

    A few points of the document are devoted to guarding of the Abkhazian-Georgian border, whose engineering and technical fitting out is to be completed in two years. The sides are also expected to jointly guard the border. Besides, the treaty stipulates “absolute freedom of crossing of the Russian-Abkhazian state border with account for restrictions established for security reasons.”

    In the customs law sphere, Abkhazia will have to harmonize within three years from the treaty’s entry into forces its laws with acts of the Eurasian Economic Union of Russia, Belarus, Kazakhstan and Armenia, and in the part not regulated by the acts - with laws of the Russian Federation. Abkhazia will also have to bring its budget laws closer to Russian ones.

    Russia, in line with the document, will “adopt additional measures aimed to streamline procedures to acquire citizenship of the Russian Federation by nationals of the Republic of Abkhazia.”

    Russia will also co-finance the raising of wages in Abkhazia “for the key categories of employees of state institutions in the sphere of healthcare, education, science, culture, sports and social servicing of citizens to a level comparable with the wage level of relevant categories of workers in the Southern Federal District of the Russian Federation.”

    The same will apply to pensions of Abkhazian residents having Russian citizenship.

    The treaty is concluded for 10 years with the possibility to extend it for subsequent five-year periods.

    Russia and Georgia cut off diplomatic ties after Russia recognized as independent two Georgian breakaway republics of South Ossetia and Abkhazia. The recognition followed Georgia's attack on South Ossetia that entailed Russia's peacemaking operation in August 2008.

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    South Ossetia suspends easy rules of crossing border with Georgia for three days

    Post  whir on Tue May 05, 2015 3:37 pm

    ITAR-TASS wrote:South Ossetia suspends easy rules of crossing border with Georgia for three days
    World May 05, 12:49 UTC+3

    The measure is expected to enhance public security during celebrations on the occasion of the V-Day’s 70th anniversary, the press office of South Ossetia’s State Security Committee said

    TSKHINVAL, May 5. /TASS/. South Ossetia on May 8-10 will suspend the operation of checkpoints on the border with Georgia that let locals travel either way according to simpler rules, the press office of South Ossetia’s State Security Committee has said. The measure is expected to enhance public security during celebrations on the occasion of the V-Day’s 70th anniversary, the State Security Committee said, adding that the routine border crossing procedures would resume as of May 11. Continue reading
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    GarryB

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  GarryB on Wed May 06, 2015 12:19 am

    When you read between the lines that says they think there might be trouble and they are taking precautions to lower the risk...

    I wonder if the participants of the Moscow parade will be parading with a full load of live ammo in case the Ukrainians try to pull something during the parade... Twisted Evil


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    George1

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  George1 on Mon May 25, 2015 6:17 pm

    South Ossetia Closes Border With Georgia Over Security Concerns

    The South Caucasus breakaway republic of South Ossetia is shutting down its southern border with Georgia on Monday over a reported security threat, its security authority said.

    TSKHINVAL (Sputnik) – The republic’s State Security Committee said it had been alerted to a plot by right-wing forces in Georgia to cross into the republic ahead of Georgia’s Independence Day celebrations on Tuesday.

    "To avoid a destabilization on the republic’s border, it was decided to close border crossings from Georgia starting on May 25 and until the alert is lifted," the security agency said.

    South Ossetians will be allowed to cross into Georgia on special permits.

    The security agency’s spokesperson said they were preparing for possible provocations on the border by allies of Georgia’s former US-backed President Mikheil Saakashvili, who now resides outside of the country.

    May 26 marks the day when Georgia, a former part of the Russian Empire, adopted an Act of Independence after the 1917 Russian Revolution and proclaimed its sovereignty.

    South Ossetians, who broke away from Georgia in 2008, fear that the celebrations may reignite nationalist sentiment. The republic is considered by the government in Tbilisi to be an occupied territory.

    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/world/20150525/1022539969.html#ixzz3bARzqAns
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    George1

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  George1 on Mon Jul 20, 2015 11:39 pm

    South Ossetia not to leave Georgia’s border provocations unanswered — representative

    The situation on the border started aggravating since mid-February when unidentified persons opened fire at the South Ossetian territory and wrenched out South Ossetia’s border marks

    TSKHINVAL, July 20 /TASS/. The Republic of South Ossetia will respond to any new Georgian provocations on the border with South Ossetia, Kokh Gogloity, the deputy envoy for the post-conflict settlement who heads the South Ossetian delegation at negotiations within the framework of Mechanisms of Prevention and Reaction to incidents, said on Monday.

    "In case of repeated provocations…along the state border with Georgia’s adjacent territory, the South Ossetian side will react accordingly if the incidents continue," he said.

    The situation on South Ossetia’s border with Georgia was a subject for discussion at an extraordinary session held within the framework of the Mechanisms for Prevention and Reaction to Incidents. It was held at the Ergnet populated locality in Georgia at the request of the South Ossetian side. It was attended by representatives of South Ossetia, Russia, Georgia, the European Union Monitoring Mission (EUMM) in Georgia and the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE).

    It was noted that the situation on the border started aggravating since mid-February when unidentified persons opened fire at the South Ossetian territory and wrenched out South Ossetia’s border marks. The South Ossetian side has reported the incidents to the international monitors and co-chairmen of international organizations at the Geneva discussions for Security in South Caucasus many times.

    According to Gagloity, the co-chairmen of international organizations said they were ready to work for the sake of preserving peace in the region adding that any provocations did not contribute to regional stability.

    Earlier, the Georgian side accused the South Ossetian border guards of violating Georgia’s state border and alleged attempts to move the border marks deeper into the Georgian territory.


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