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    Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

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    Morpheus Eberhardt

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:09 am

    TR1 wrote:No, Russian troops just executed people in filtration camps, filled mass graves with often non-fighters, and generally turned Grozny into Stalingrad 2.0

    Your whitewashing is disgusting.

    SO militia and Georgians shot at each other from time to time for years. From the Georgian perspective, they were armed rebels. Believe it or not there is a whole world out there, not just Russia's perspective.

    And btw, what civilians are being shot in that vid? They are shooting around a deserted area. No proof they killed anyone in that clip. Does it make the Georgians look bad? Sure. Genocide? Nonsense.

    Well, this forum is going down the tube.

    That's thermodynamics in action.
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    TheGeorgian

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  TheGeorgian on Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:13 am

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    TheGeorgian wrote:We simply belong togheter like in the past centuries ...

    There was no Georgia in "the past centuries".

    lol seriously ? is that the desinformation they are teaching you now ?


    Last edited by TheGeorgian on Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:15 am; edited 1 time in total
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    TR1

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  TR1 on Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:14 am

    It sure is, you people make mp.net look fair and balanced.

    I got family who were PERSONALLY decorated by Putin the Hero for bravery in action in Chechnya ( FSB counter-terrorist units). If they heard this whitewashing (while condemning Georgia for genocide) they would laugh their asses off.
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    Werewolf

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  Werewolf on Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:20 am

    Really wikipedia as a source.... that is weak really weak. One of the forum rules was not to post such flimsy sources.

    wikipedia especially about history and war/military matters is useless source, it is good for lot of things but unreliable for those things.


    Even a quick check of some of those sources show only that they are claiming a lot but no proof in content.

    And such sources as Human Rights Watch are listed are one of the most unserious sources in this wikipedia article i can imagine.

    Human Rights Watch are among those NGOs which are recieving money from USAID and such beloved people like George Soros.

    I'm sorry when i indeed have to refuse such things as "proof", because such sources have a conflict of interest aspecially during wartime.

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    TR1

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  TR1 on Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:22 am

    Wikipedia linking a bunch of Russian articles. Like I said, read it, and decide for yourself if it is all propaganda and lies.
    Obviously not every report about massacres is 100% accurate, or even happened.
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    Werewolf

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  Werewolf on Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:30 am

    If i read anything on wikipedia i go down to the sources first and some are not existing anymore, some are worthless to mention and obviously i can not check them so quick, but you do understand the point that wikipedia is not the best source for anything like that?

    I can give you in several different languages to the same article different point of views and with that also different propaganda.

    I usually post, or at least try to post several sources and not one source, i just recommend that to everyone and i am not whitewashing anything i already explained my point and i think i am less one sided than you want me to see.
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    TheGeorgian

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  TheGeorgian on Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:32 am

    Werewolf wrote:
    TR1 wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:The only way to put the past behind is admitting that Georgia under Sackarschwilli started the war and prosecuting this bastard for genocide, which it was.

    Collateral damage is not genocide.

    Saaka is basically non-grata in Georgia anyways, asking for prosecution is just silly.  

    Yes you are truely americanized silly guy.

    So this is collateral damage?

    Driving through South Ossetian cities randomly shooting in civilian houses and cars?





    How many US/Georgian lies have been told and till this day believed and spread, blaming russia for civilian deaths while it was Georgian Grads that destroyed villages and civilian buildings in cities, before any russian had fired a shot?

    Collateral damage means NON-intentional!

    Genocide means an attempt to wipe out or reducing drastically the population of a group. US played this retarded Sackarschwilli for an idiot he is, told him he could get into NATO, but one requirement for joinging NATO is it shall not have dispute with any boardering countries,regions so they tried to "cleanse" this region, attacked russian troops intentionally, too.

    It was a genocide by true meaning.

    If you continue with your americanized bias than better don't respond at all.

    It hasn't to do anything with "americanized bias". You are right about the NATO part, Western propaganda. But you are wrong about "cleansing" and you seem very biased and one sided on that topic comrade. Those videos don't proof a genocide. It only proves that people are very blinded by amount of propaganda that you show random videos without even knowing their real content. Do you even understand what the soldiers are saying in those videos .... ? Those are scenes cut out of original video material and put togheter for propaganda purpose. Same with the soldier who supposedly shoots a "civilian" after he asked him to stop. Yet I am not saying that there might be a number of evidences for single crimes. GAF bombed targets in Tshkinvali. A city wich was evacuated for most part. Georgians did even send observer unit into the city to report that hours before the operation began. Ossetians released a full list of fatal casualties of the war and when the Georgian military rolled into Tskhinvali they were mostly engaging volunteer militia and Russian MC while Kokoiti and his military withdrew to Java. That list however doesn't state who those killed were and it's estimated that more than half of them were volunteers who died during combat. Russian figure basicaly splits Ossetian figure in half because they make the same assumption. No doubt, ugly things happened there. It's a war. Did you never see docs about Chechnya ?? but ugly things happened on both sides and in the end it were mostly Georgian villages that got destroyed, not Ossetian. There's plenty of videos you can find about that, why aren't you watching those ? plenty of reports about rapes and murder by Ossetian irregulars continuing days and weeks after the war. The statistics and facts speak for themselves .... and you Sir, really need to learn the difference between that and a genocide. While you happily try to downplay the crimes commited in Chechnya, you inflate a brief tragic war into a holocaust of unimaginable proportions. Just think about it.
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    Morpheus Eberhardt

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:41 am

    TR1 wrote:http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B0_%D1%87%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B5%D0%BA%D0%B0_%D0%B2_%D0%A7%D0%B5%D1%87%D0%BD%D0%B5_%D0%B2_%D1%85%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%B5_%D0%92%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B9_%D1%87%D0%B5%D1%87%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B9_%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B9%D0%BD%D1%8B

    Enjoy your reading.
    Though I am sure every incident of Russian forces potentially committing crimes is "teh American propaganda", but some Georgians shooting up streets= genocide.

    It is against this forum's rules to use Wikipedia as a source, but of course, you are desperate.
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    TR1

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  TR1 on Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:43 am

    Indeed, there were quite a few reports of Russian military supposedly shooting SO militia who attacked ethnic Georgian enclaves.
    At one point a Georgian village begged the Russian mil to come back because local police led and they were at the mercy of various militias.

    Now are all those reports accurate, or even most? Who knows, many clearly are exaggeration. But war is a mess, generally from all sides.
    Since the Evil Empire (TM) collapsed Kavkaz has been full of human rights abuses left and right. Sad reality.
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    Morpheus Eberhardt

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Tue Jun 24, 2014 1:10 am

    TR1 wrote:It sure is, you people make mp.net look fair and balanced.

    I got family who were PERSONALLY decorated by Putin the Hero for bravery in action in Chechnya ( FSB counter-terrorist units). If they heard this whitewashing (while condemning Georgia for genocide) they would laugh their asses off.

    I usually don't respond to this kind of gibberish, but considering you are a long time forum user, I should at least make a mention of the fact that you are really just trolling now.
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    Werewolf

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  Werewolf on Tue Jun 24, 2014 1:16 am

    TheGeorgian wrote:

    It hasn't to do anything with "americanized bias". You are right about the NATO part, Western propaganda. But you are wrong about "cleansing" and you seem very biased and one sided on that topic comrade. Those videos don't proof a genocide. It only proves that people are very blinded by amount of propaganda that you show random videos without even knowing their real content. Do you even understand what the soldiers are saying in those videos .... ? Those are scenes cut out of original video material and put togheter for propaganda purpose. Same with the soldier who supposedly shoots a "civilian" after he asked him to stop.


    I know the content because those georgian soldiers filmed their atrocities with their own mobile phones, laughing into camera and cheering while shooting into houses with 12.7mm and into cars. This is not out of content because there are several of such videos with bodies shown dead in cars.

    TheGeorgian wrote:
    Yet I am not saying that there might be a number of evidences for single crimes. GAF bombed targets in Tshkinvali. A city wich was evacuated for most part. Georgians did even send observer unit into the city to report that hours before the operation began.

    But still blamed russia in BBC and CNN media for destroyed civilian blockhouses and civlian casualties before even any russian troop has fired a single shot? Good observers or good flase flag operation. One of those two things is certain that civilian houses were hit by Georgian army and blamed on Russia, either observers are shit and try to twist things so they don't have to admit its their own fault or it was intentional.


    TheGeorgian wrote:
    Did you never see docs about Chechnya ??

    Actually i did translate one documentary into english made by a russian journalist that was not published unter jelzin era but years after, but was shown in germany during jelzin era.

    This is the documentary, i translated it and Bitnik edited it to proper english.



    I've seen actual footage and pictures that proof atrocities of russian soldiers to POWs, and chechen terrorists killing russian POWs, but i have not seen any civilians purposley killed by russian soldiers.

    I've seen footage where some 18-19 year old conscript was wounded and was on the ground begging for his life and one of the chechen terrorists emptied a magazine out of his Kalaschnikow. I've also seen how 5-6 Chechen terrorists after getting captured by russian forces, have been executed infront of a wall. But again I,myself have not seen any actual footage of civilians getting purposley killed. I've seen killed civilians by artillery, yes that is a war crime, but it makes a differnce infront of a court and in moral and ethics if someone did that intentional or a such called "collateral damage".

    I repeat it if you both still don't get it, i speak about my own knowledge from actual footage and not just some articles without proof, that i have not seen them, i do not deny that No atrocities happened, i just have not seen intentional mass killing.

    TheGeorgian wrote:
    While you happily try to downplay the crimes commited in Chechnya, you inflate a brief tragic war into a holocaust of unimaginable proportions. Just think about it.

    You may address this to yourself but not to me, i am pretty open about what i say and i choose my words properly. The point you want to address calling me biased you as a georgian about georgian war can't be unbiased yourself, if we are talking plain about "taking sides" or "one sided".

    The point of those military operation right before Sackarschwilli made an announcement in TV about South Ossetians and Georgians should work together and should start working together, no violence and long history.... all that in his speech just a few hours right before Georgian army has recieved order to attack South Ossetia, you as a georgian tell me who where they attacking sindie South Ossetia, i've never heared not from german, not from british or american and not from russian sources anything about militans or terrorists like in Chechnya since TR1 brought the comperision up, like you too? So who were the georgian army attacking?
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    Morpheus Eberhardt

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Tue Jun 24, 2014 1:17 am

    TheGeorgian wrote:
    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    TheGeorgian wrote:We simply belong togheter like in the past centuries ...

    There was no Georgia in "the past centuries".

    lol seriously ? is that the desinformation they are teaching you now ?

    They are obviously prole-feeding these poor souls that Georgia existed as a country before 1991. Expected, but still cute.
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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  Regular on Tue Jun 24, 2014 2:32 am

    Got to take Georgian side on this one. They got their act right, and now it's decent country were Russians and Russian speakers are welcomed.
    Before You go on blaming them of genocide look at Ukraine. Only serious crime Georgians did was shelling of Thskinvali. A video of Cobra gunner shooting god knows where and laughing is a moot proof of war crime. When there are videos of Ukrainian Nat guard shooting people point blank. Ukrainians are shelling their own cities for how long and how long did shelling of Thskinvali lasted?
    Now what TR1 said.. Both Chechen wars were terrible. Atrocities on both sides. It was a meatgrinder
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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  Regular on Tue Jun 24, 2014 2:44 am

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    TheGeorgian wrote:
    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    TheGeorgian wrote:We simply belong togheter like in the past centuries ...

    There was no Georgia in "the past centuries".

    lol seriously ? is that the desinformation they are teaching you now ?

    They are obviously prole-feeding these poor souls that Georgia existed as a country before 1991. Expected, but still cute.
    Yeah it never existed, You see those medieval castles in Georgia appeared by themselves. They are actually pretty old nation. But so are Ossetians. Abkhazians are like Bosnians in Balkans, formed by Otoman influence.
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    Morpheus Eberhardt

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Tue Jun 24, 2014 3:40 am

    Regular wrote:
    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    TheGeorgian wrote:
    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    TheGeorgian wrote:We simply belong togheter like in the past centuries ...

    There was no Georgia in "the past centuries".

    lol seriously ? is that the desinformation they are teaching you now ?

    They are obviously prole-feeding these poor souls that Georgia existed as a country before 1991. Expected, but still cute.
    Yeah it never existed, You see those medieval castles in Georgia appeared by themselves. They are actually pretty old nation. But so are Ossetians. Abkhazians are like Bosnians in Balkans, formed by Otoman influence.

    Can you read what you have written and think about it. There is enough material even on this forum that shows what you have said was a combination of falsehood an irrelevance.

    Until you have studied this matter and have shown to yourself and others the reason that your assertion was completely wrong, you should refrain from posting anything.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:13 am

    Collateral damage is not genocide.

    Collateral damage is not genocide... don't know about local police in your area but the local police where I live dont use Grads to "save them" from terrorists.

    Saaka is basically non-grata in Georgia anyways, asking for prosecution is just silly.

    And there is your problem... perhaps is saaka ordered the bombing of Moscow or your home village you might think no longer being popular in Georgia would be enough punnishment, but perhaps the people of South Ossetia and Abkhazia might not want good relations with Georgia while Saaka is a free man there or not held to account.

    By not prosecuting him they are saying what he did was not a crime... can you not see how that might be counter productive to any future reconciliation?

    It certainly isn't in the interest of any side.

    Sounds like South Ossetia and Abkhazia might think it is in their interests to formalise good relations with Russia.

    There was no "genocide" nor an attempt of a genocide, not even remotely.

    The attack on South Ossetia was not a rescue mission... it was a Waco mission... burn the place down. They might not have gone out of their way to kill the South Ossetians but clearly the plan was to make them leave... perhaps to block the Roki tunnel to prevent Russian support coming in.

    Half of the killed Ossetians who were not conscripts, were probably volunteers.

    While the Georgians killed were all innocent civilians.... keep playing the blame game... I am sure that will help them change their minds and want to rejoin Georgia again.... NOT.

    I agree that bombarding a city is a crime in general. But military all over the world does it. Remember Grozny, Baghdad, Afghanistan, Syria, Palestine etc ? why don't you condemn that ?

    First of all you might notice in these threads that there are actually quite a few members calling attacks on Baghdad and Afghanistan and Palestine a crime... and if you remember correctly when Russian forces first rolled in to Grozny, they did so in columns without artillery or air support and the Chechens ignored that fig leaf and massacred them. If it had been Prague or another city that wasn't fortified for war it would have been a fait acomplait and the Russians could have taken the city without a shot being fired and no buildings being shelled... it was a choice the Chechens made for themselves.

    In comparison the unprovoked Georgian attack on South Ossetia started with artillery aimed at Russian peace keeper bases, and then seemed to have become random.

    So please, don't be one sided. The war itself was a crime allready.

    But who started it? Who is responsible?

    It is amusing you balance the issue by claiming the South Ossetians started evacuating a city that was being shelled by Georgian forces... what bastards they are!

    Got to take Georgian side on this one. They got their act right, and now it's decent country were Russians and Russian speakers are welcomed.

    So therefore you would also take the side of Germany and Japan because after WWII with lots of US cash and investment they turned out pretty prosperous too... very unusual logic...

    Before You go on blaming them of genocide look at Ukraine. Only serious crime Georgians did was shelling of Thskinvali. A video of Cobra gunner shooting god knows where and laughing is a moot proof of war crime. When there are videos of Ukrainian Nat guard shooting people point blank. Ukrainians are shelling their own cities for how long and how long did shelling of Thskinvali lasted?

    So the fact that the nazis in Ukraine happily murder those ukrainians that oppose their coup, then Georgia is clean and innocent and with all that US money in aide and investment, they are OK.

    THEY FIRED GRAD ROCKETS INTO A CITY THEY CLAIM AS THEIR OWN.

    They clearly thought nothing about the lives of the South Ossetians, or the Russian peace keepers. The Georgian peacekeepers withdrew, and the OSCE peacekeepers were also told to leave by the Georgians... yet no warning was given to the Russian peacekeepers or the South Ossetians themselves... wonder who those Grads were intended for?

    If Slobodan had ordered a Grad attack on the capital of Kosovo and targetted specifically NATO and EU peacekeepers there do you think a few Serbian villages might get damaged in what would happen next?

    But no... Russia has Chechnia and Abkhazia has 1993 and only Georgia is a victim here.

    Not really sure how Abkhazia and 1993 justifies an artillery attack on South Ossetia in 2008 but I am sure there is a good solid reason in Wiki somewhere.

    Now what TR1 said.. Both Chechen wars were terrible. Atrocities on both sides. It was a meatgrinder

    And unlike the Georgian decision to attack a city defended by Russian peacekeepers, the conflict in Chechnia was not really in Russian hands... or was Beslan made up? Was the Moscow Theatre siege just a friendly criticism of modern Russian theatre performances?



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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  Regular on Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:38 am

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    Regular wrote:
    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    TheGeorgian wrote:
    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    TheGeorgian wrote:We simply belong togheter like in the past centuries ...

    There was no Georgia in "the past centuries".

    lol seriously ? is that the desinformation they are teaching you now ?

    They are obviously prole-feeding these poor souls that Georgia existed as a country before 1991. Expected, but still cute.
    Yeah it never existed, You see those medieval castles in Georgia appeared by themselves. They are actually pretty old nation. But so are Ossetians. Abkhazians are like Bosnians in Balkans, formed by Otoman influence.

    Can you read what you have written and think about it. There is enough material even on this forum that shows what you have said was a combination of falsehood an irrelevance.

    Until you have studied this matter and have shown to yourself and others the reason that your assertion was completely wrong, you should refrain from posting anything.

    Where are You from? I didn't study Georgian history as a separate subject, but I have spent 4 summers there. When I was there last time it was called Georgian SSR, so how does Your arrogant remark about Georgia never existing before 1991 can be considered valid? Do You know definition of a country? Having said I've visited historical sights and medieval castles from Kingdom times. Please share a quick snip of why You think that Georgia never existed?
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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  Regular on Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:54 am

    GarryB wrote:if you remember correctly when Russian forces first rolled in to Grozny, they did so in columns without artillery or air support and the Chechens ignored that fig leaf and massacred them. If it had been Prague or another city that wasn't fortified for war it would have been a fait acomplait and the Russians could have taken the city without a shot being fired and no buildings being shelled... it was a choice the Chechens made for themselves.
    I remember watching Russian news when this whole Chechen thing started.
    And I would rather blame their idiot commanders than Chechens. They were sent there to fight not to parade.
    Before sending in troops Russia was supporting separatists in Chechnya and they had bombing campaign where they bombed Chechnya and even Grozny for days. It wasn't like soldiers came there with confetti and flowers.

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  Asf on Tue Jun 24, 2014 10:06 am

    When I was there last time it was called Georgian SSR, so how does Your arrogant remark about Georgia never existing before 1991 can be considered valid?

    Was "Georgian SSR" a country or just a subdivision of the Soviet Union? Or was there such countries like republic of Tuva or Yakutia or Chukotka or even Ukraine before the short period of civil war and USSR? Actually Georgia was a country long time ago before Osman Empire and not in it's modern borders, so it resembles on modern Georgia like Kievan Rus on modern Ukraine


    Before sending in troops Russia was supporting separatists in Chechnya and they had bombing campaign where they bombed Chechnya and even Grozny for days

    Nope, you are wrong. Only chechens airfields were bombed , destroying aircrafts on them. If you saw something like that in news blame your media. And I actually didn't get it - who was supporting separatists?


     It wasn't like soldiers came there with confetti and flowers. 

    It was supposed to be by Yeltsin and his guys, as they saw separatists like a bunch of criminals without people's support
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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  TheGeorgian on Tue Jun 24, 2014 10:32 am

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    Can you read what you have written and think about it. There is enough material even on this forum that shows what you have said was a combination of falsehood an irrelevance.

    Until you have studied this matter and have shown to yourself and others the reason that your assertion was completely wrong, you should refrain from posting anything.

    So you basicaly trying to tell everyone that history lies.

    I don't know what silly things you have read or are trying to proof but it's sad to see that.

    You say "Georgia" didn't exist before 1991. Even in USSR there was the Georgian Soviet Socialist Republic, an autonomous state within the Soviet Union. It succeeded the First Georgian Democratic Republic which only lived for a short time from 1918 till it got annexed by the Soviets in 1921. Before that brief independence we were part of the Russian Empire. I guess what you are referring to is the time period before the Russian Empire annexed the region in 1801. Yes it is true. Georgia as such was not a unified country for centuries after 1500 when internal struggles basicaly lead to a downfall of the Georgian Kingdom. It was split in dominions that constantly fought for supremecy in the region. Pretty much like the Holy Roman Empire was plit into hundreds of autonomous states that had their own laws, currency etc. Not in that extreme scale though. A century before that the kingdom got invaded by Timur Lang but the Timurids were not able to keep control from the second half the end of the century. Before that invasion Georgia was still a unified Kingdom for some time before it was struck by the first Mongol invasion in the 12th century. Even in those periods the kingdom didn't cease to exist, it was simply a vassal to the Mongol empire. Before that invasion the Kingdom of Georgia was flourishing under Queen Tamar and before her rule under King David the Builder. Before the Kingdom of Georgia there were several Georgian kingdoms that existed, that of Lazika, the first unified kingdom that existed for 250 years before it got invaded by the Byzantinian Empire and before that there were the ancient kingdoms of Colchis and Iberia that existed for like 1600 years. Iberia survived even a bit longer. If you are referring to that than it is true, in that time period there also was no "Georgia" as like the modern term for a unified state of Georgia. You should rather educate yourself better on our history if you want to talk about it. Otherwise it's just ignorance and a big portion of bias. The fact that "Georgia" as in a kingdom or a region of Georgian speaking peoples and states did repeatedly exist for more than just a "few centuries" is evidence enough that you should stop believing some made up "evidences" from whereever or your own. If you insist not believing in actual history than you should also question that of your own country, even it's existence. 882 created by Varangians from Scandinavia, for us well known people we often hired as mercenaries long before they founded Kievan Rus. So please be serious.

    Werewolf wrote:
    I know the content because those georgian soldiers filmed their atrocities with their own mobile phones, laughing into camera and cheering while shooting into houses with 12.7mm and into cars. This is not out of content because there are several of such videos with bodies shown dead in cars

    No, you don't. Yes I know that one tape that exists showing some asshole randomly shooting into empty houses. Idiots like him do exist in armies. There might have been several cases of that and yes even shooting at empty buildings is a crime. But you want people to blindly assume and believe that such single doings are clear and believable evidence for such a heavy accusation as is ethnic cleansing. Civilian cars were used by the armed militias too. I can't post links right now because I'm a fresh member but there is a video where you see a bunch of Georgian troops observing from their position not more than a few dozen meters how vans and UAZs are getting out of the city. One of the UAZ was constantly moving a few meters out of cover and back again. The soldiers speaking were assuming that it were militia who were transmitting coordinates of their positions. If they wanted to kill everyone in that city, they would have tried that. Yet in the videos you only see how they are walking down the streets by huge numbers and not sweaping through buildings to round up and kill civilians. Most of the time they responded to random shooting from some of the buildings. Yet I repeat that I won't denie or rule out from my side that something like that infamous happy shooting at buildings could have happened more than just once.

    But still blamed russia in BBC and CNN media for destroyed civilian blockhouses and civlian casualties before even any russian troop has fired a single shot? Good observers or good flase flag operation. One of those two things is certain that civilian houses were hit by Georgian army and blamed on Russia, either observers are shit and try to twist things so they don't have to admit its their own fault or it was intentional.

    I'm not even trying to justify such propaganda. However Saakashvili has it's own version of the story, the Georgian military has it's own version of the story and Russian side has it's own version of the story and there is also other versions and common sense. Of course you will stick solely to the Russian version. I don't expect anything else.

    I repeat it if you both still don't get it, i speak about my own knowledge from actual footage and not just some articles without proof, that i have not seen them, i do not deny that No atrocities happened, i just have not seen intentional mass killing.

    Yes but wait. There is the problem with what you do. You say you saw dead civilians who got killed by artillery and agree it is a crime. Damn Grozny was bombed back to stone age comrade. How do you call that ? there were thousands of people living in that city and it got obliterated. All the footages I saw, there was nothing left of a city only rubble and tens of thousands of civilians reportedly died in those two conflicts. How did they die then ? by the insurgents ? you make wild accusations against us when you have a slaughterhouse in your own backyard. How does that work ? you claim you saw the Chechnya war. Now you've also seen the 2008 war. When comparing them both, you come to the conclusion that Georgians were committing "intentional mass killing" and "genocide" with a handfull of supposed evidense and an artillery strike which all in all combined resulted in the death of 50 (HRW) to 160 civilians (Russian version), who might as well could have mostly been volunteers ? I get what you are doing, you don't need to repeat yourself .... but you are just blindly assuming things from Russian media circus too. It's not only West that spreads propaganda.

    You may address this to yourself but not to me, i am pretty open about what i say and i choose my words properly. The point you want to address calling me biased you as a georgian about georgian war can't be unbiased yourself, if we are talking plain about "taking sides" or "one sided".

    Sure. That is a valid assumption. That can be said about any side. I accept that because it is true.

    you as a georgian tell me who where they attacking sindie South Ossetia, i've never heared not from german, not from british or american and not from russian sources anything about militans or terrorists like in Chechnya since TR1 brought the comperision up, like you too? So who were the georgian army attacking?

    In the early stages of the operation Georgian army was fighting Ossetian volunteers ( where did I call them "terrorists" - it's not the same ! .... ) in Tskhinvali and Russian MC. Even every single Russian military analytical report and essay confirms that ( though I wouldn't take someone like Mikhail Barabanov serious any time soon because his biased report is filled with 20% objective military analysis and the rest silly patriotism and propaganda ). I don't believe you won't find any of those anywhere.

    GarryB wrote:Collateral damage is not genocide.

    Collateral damage is not genocide... don't know about local police in your area but the local police where I live dont use Grads to "save them" from terrorists.

    Something like that is called a war crime, not genocide ....

    And there is your problem... perhaps is saaka ordered the bombing of Moscow or your home village you might think no longer being popular in Georgia would be enough punnishment, but perhaps the people of South Ossetia and Abkhazia might not want good relations with Georgia while Saaka is a free man there or not held to account....

    ...By not prosecuting him they are saying what he did was not a crime... can you not see how that might be counter productive to any future reconciliation?

    You are both wrong. Saakashvili is more than wanted prosecuted and punished for his crimes. But the EU is protecting him and the government can't do shit unless they want to loose prospect of joining EU. Saakashvili made some effective PR and bought some EU parlimentarians on his side. His fellow regime members are not able to run around freely in Georgia. Every time they show up they get almost beaten to death. That's why most of them top decision makers are in protective custody before trial

    Sounds like South Ossetia and Abkhazia might think it is in their interests to formalise good relations with Russia.

    We will see about it. In the end it's all up to Russia.

    The attack on South Ossetia was not a rescue mission... it was a Waco mission... burn the place down. They might not have gone out of their way to kill the South Ossetians but clearly the plan was to make them leave... perhaps to block the Roki tunnel to prevent Russian support coming in.

    Ofc it wasn't a rescue mission. Since when is large scale military operation a rescue mission ? the goal was to capture the region, dislodge the from our constitutional POV illegitimate autonomous goverment and replace it with the "Ossetian goverment in exile" or provisional goverment, not to commit a senseless massacre on the population as the Russians like to portray it.

    While the Georgians killed were all innocent civilians.... keep playing the blame game... I am sure that will help them change their minds and want to rejoin Georgia again.... NOT.

    Nobody here said there were only Georgian civilian casualties. We lost quite a lot of military there too and the blame game is carried out by both sides.

    First of all you might notice in these threads that there are actually quite a few members calling attacks on Baghdad and Afghanistan and Palestine a crime... and if you remember correctly when Russian forces first rolled in to Grozny, they did so in columns without artillery or air support and the Chechens ignored that fig leaf and massacred them. If it had been Prague or another city that wasn't fortified for war it would have been a fait acomplait and the Russians could have taken the city without a shot being fired and no buildings being shelled... it was a choice the Chechens made for themselves.

    Don't take me wrong man, but when your city is invaded by a huge army you will take that opportunity to ambush and destroy them if they do it in such a clumsy way. It is called warfare.


    In comparison the unprovoked Georgian attack on South Ossetia started with artillery aimed at Russian peace keeper bases, and then seemed to have become random.

    Yes that was a crime also from my POV. We agree on this one.

    It is amusing you balance the issue by claiming the South Ossetians started evacuating a city that was being shelled by Georgian forces... what bastards they are!

    I am not "balancing" it, I'm pointing out the two-sided purpose of that. The Georgians especialy entered the city when it was evacuated. They most likely would have hesitated if that wasn't the case. Otherwise Tskhinvali would have been attacked months ago and that attack wasn't really a well organized, calculated and executed one. Saakashvili smelled the chance and he reacted quickly.

    Got to take Georgian side on this one. They got their act right, and now it's decent country were Russians and Russian speakers are welcomed.

    But no... Russia has Chechnia and Abkhazia has 1993 and only Georgia is a victim here.

    Only that nobody is claiming that. I allready pointed out in the beginning that the 2008 conflict particularly was all our fault.

    Asf

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  Asf on Tue Jun 24, 2014 10:46 am

    Something like that is called a war crime, not genocide ....

    Is it better? And still it's not the evidence that a war crime wasn't commited in order to genocide south ossetians. BTW genocide is a war crime too


    the goal was to capture the region, dislodge the from our constitutional POV illegitimate autonomous goverment and replace it with the "Ossetian goverment in exile" or provisional goverment, not to commit a senseless massacre on the population as the Russians like to portray it.

    Using Grads against civilians and f***king killing the UNN peacekeepers is the right form of installing a constitutional order.

    Will you deny wars in 90s and in 2008 was inspired by georgian nationalism?


    Last edited by Asf on Tue Jun 24, 2014 10:58 am; edited 1 time in total
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    TheGeorgian

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  TheGeorgian on Tue Jun 24, 2014 10:56 am

    Asf wrote:
    Something like that is called a war crime, not genocide ....

    Is it better? And still it's not the evidence that a war crime wasn't commited in order to genocide south ossetians. BTW genocide is a war crime too

    No, a crime is a crime nontheless. But it was not a genocide. That's redicilous almost insulting. Why would we carry out ethnic cleansing in that region ?? who would have supposedly stood behind that ? it's insane. There never was the atmosphere or attitude or suggestion from anyone to cleanse the region or any kind of hate towards Ossetians. That's what makes this a completly redicilous and offensive accusation. I'm just angry about such cheap ass propaganda people actualy believe in isntantly, like media was never biased or lying for the purpose to simply discredit the opponent and add to the justifications for war.

    Georgian army in 2008 simply turned out to be what I expected and feared. Undisciplined, unorganized and ill trained, badly equipped and badly lead military force. What achievements do you expect when an army is commanding via cell phones by politicians.

    Using Grads against civilians and f***king killing the UNN peacekeepers is the right form of installing a constitutional order.

    Obviously not.

    Will you deny wars in 90s and in 2008 was inspired by georgian nationalism?

    inspired by nationalism .... ? as in maintaining integrity maybe. I don't denie that Gamsakhurdia turned out to be a nationalist jerk but who lost all credibility and support pretty soon. It's not like Georgian love to have extremists as their rulers. If you can read back so far and imply so much about "nationalism" you should also know that there was a general civil war and Gamsakhurdia got overthrown and later died. There ends your short lived nationalism and argument. Now tell me, was the massacre on the Georgian population and the genocide in 1992-93 inspired by warm hearted hospitality ?


    Last edited by TheGeorgian on Tue Jun 24, 2014 11:20 am; edited 1 time in total

    Asf

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  Asf on Tue Jun 24, 2014 11:14 am

     Why would we carry out ethnic cleansing in that region ?

    Why would you ever assaulted South Ossetia? Why would you stab the peacekeepers in the back? May be because of bitter hatred exists from the times of the first war with Abkhazia and South ossetia? Or may be due to political line of Saakashvilli, who wanted those regions being "brought back" at any cost? What would you do with ossetians if they resist to live in Georgia even after the "reunification"?


     I don't denie that Gamsakhurdia turned out to be a nationalist jerk but who lost all credibility and support pretty soon

    I see no actual difference between them.


     Now tell me, was the massacre on the Georgian population and the genocide in 1992-93 inspired by warm hearted hospitality ?

    So a bitter hatred and revanchism did exict in georgian society, right?

    I'm not telling these guys were good, and whose guys were bad. But it was georgians who attacked the ossetians in 2008. And did it not in a chivalric manner.


    Last edited by Asf on Tue Jun 24, 2014 11:21 am; edited 3 times in total
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    macedonian

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  macedonian on Tue Jun 24, 2014 11:19 am

    A bit offtop, but I really want to know, so bear with me please...

    @TheGeorgian

    Now after things have somewhat settled, how would you say Russia/Russians are perceived in Georgia?
    For me personally, it's a tragedy that Georgia and Russia were driven to the point of actually fighting a war.
    Only consolation is that it was a very brief conflict with not too much deaths on either side.

    Asf

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  Asf on Tue Jun 24, 2014 11:23 am

    Georgian army in 2008 simply turned out to be what I expected and feared. Undisciplined, unorganized and ill trained, badly equipped and badly lead military force.

    I'm afraid those war crimes wasn't the fault of military force alone, but the people who lead them via cell phones. And their political goal was if not a genocide as it is but very close to it

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