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    Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  Regular on Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:54 am

    GarryB wrote:if you remember correctly when Russian forces first rolled in to Grozny, they did so in columns without artillery or air support and the Chechens ignored that fig leaf and massacred them. If it had been Prague or another city that wasn't fortified for war it would have been a fait acomplait and the Russians could have taken the city without a shot being fired and no buildings being shelled... it was a choice the Chechens made for themselves.
    I remember watching Russian news when this whole Chechen thing started.
    And I would rather blame their idiot commanders than Chechens. They were sent there to fight not to parade.
    Before sending in troops Russia was supporting separatists in Chechnya and they had bombing campaign where they bombed Chechnya and even Grozny for days. It wasn't like soldiers came there with confetti and flowers.

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  Asf on Tue Jun 24, 2014 10:06 am

    When I was there last time it was called Georgian SSR, so how does Your arrogant remark about Georgia never existing before 1991 can be considered valid?

    Was "Georgian SSR" a country or just a subdivision of the Soviet Union? Or was there such countries like republic of Tuva or Yakutia or Chukotka or even Ukraine before the short period of civil war and USSR? Actually Georgia was a country long time ago before Osman Empire and not in it's modern borders, so it resembles on modern Georgia like Kievan Rus on modern Ukraine


    Before sending in troops Russia was supporting separatists in Chechnya and they had bombing campaign where they bombed Chechnya and even Grozny for days

    Nope, you are wrong. Only chechens airfields were bombed , destroying aircrafts on them. If you saw something like that in news blame your media. And I actually didn't get it - who was supporting separatists?


     It wasn't like soldiers came there with confetti and flowers. 

    It was supposed to be by Yeltsin and his guys, as they saw separatists like a bunch of criminals without people's support

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  TheGeorgian on Tue Jun 24, 2014 10:32 am

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    Can you read what you have written and think about it. There is enough material even on this forum that shows what you have said was a combination of falsehood an irrelevance.

    Until you have studied this matter and have shown to yourself and others the reason that your assertion was completely wrong, you should refrain from posting anything.

    So you basicaly trying to tell everyone that history lies.

    I don't know what silly things you have read or are trying to proof but it's sad to see that.

    You say "Georgia" didn't exist before 1991. Even in USSR there was the Georgian Soviet Socialist Republic, an autonomous state within the Soviet Union. It succeeded the First Georgian Democratic Republic which only lived for a short time from 1918 till it got annexed by the Soviets in 1921. Before that brief independence we were part of the Russian Empire. I guess what you are referring to is the time period before the Russian Empire annexed the region in 1801. Yes it is true. Georgia as such was not a unified country for centuries after 1500 when internal struggles basicaly lead to a downfall of the Georgian Kingdom. It was split in dominions that constantly fought for supremecy in the region. Pretty much like the Holy Roman Empire was plit into hundreds of autonomous states that had their own laws, currency etc. Not in that extreme scale though. A century before that the kingdom got invaded by Timur Lang but the Timurids were not able to keep control from the second half the end of the century. Before that invasion Georgia was still a unified Kingdom for some time before it was struck by the first Mongol invasion in the 12th century. Even in those periods the kingdom didn't cease to exist, it was simply a vassal to the Mongol empire. Before that invasion the Kingdom of Georgia was flourishing under Queen Tamar and before her rule under King David the Builder. Before the Kingdom of Georgia there were several Georgian kingdoms that existed, that of Lazika, the first unified kingdom that existed for 250 years before it got invaded by the Byzantinian Empire and before that there were the ancient kingdoms of Colchis and Iberia that existed for like 1600 years. Iberia survived even a bit longer. If you are referring to that than it is true, in that time period there also was no "Georgia" as like the modern term for a unified state of Georgia. You should rather educate yourself better on our history if you want to talk about it. Otherwise it's just ignorance and a big portion of bias. The fact that "Georgia" as in a kingdom or a region of Georgian speaking peoples and states did repeatedly exist for more than just a "few centuries" is evidence enough that you should stop believing some made up "evidences" from whereever or your own. If you insist not believing in actual history than you should also question that of your own country, even it's existence. 882 created by Varangians from Scandinavia, for us well known people we often hired as mercenaries long before they founded Kievan Rus. So please be serious.

    Werewolf wrote:
    I know the content because those georgian soldiers filmed their atrocities with their own mobile phones, laughing into camera and cheering while shooting into houses with 12.7mm and into cars. This is not out of content because there are several of such videos with bodies shown dead in cars

    No, you don't. Yes I know that one tape that exists showing some asshole randomly shooting into empty houses. Idiots like him do exist in armies. There might have been several cases of that and yes even shooting at empty buildings is a crime. But you want people to blindly assume and believe that such single doings are clear and believable evidence for such a heavy accusation as is ethnic cleansing. Civilian cars were used by the armed militias too. I can't post links right now because I'm a fresh member but there is a video where you see a bunch of Georgian troops observing from their position not more than a few dozen meters how vans and UAZs are getting out of the city. One of the UAZ was constantly moving a few meters out of cover and back again. The soldiers speaking were assuming that it were militia who were transmitting coordinates of their positions. If they wanted to kill everyone in that city, they would have tried that. Yet in the videos you only see how they are walking down the streets by huge numbers and not sweaping through buildings to round up and kill civilians. Most of the time they responded to random shooting from some of the buildings. Yet I repeat that I won't denie or rule out from my side that something like that infamous happy shooting at buildings could have happened more than just once.

    But still blamed russia in BBC and CNN media for destroyed civilian blockhouses and civlian casualties before even any russian troop has fired a single shot? Good observers or good flase flag operation. One of those two things is certain that civilian houses were hit by Georgian army and blamed on Russia, either observers are shit and try to twist things so they don't have to admit its their own fault or it was intentional.

    I'm not even trying to justify such propaganda. However Saakashvili has it's own version of the story, the Georgian military has it's own version of the story and Russian side has it's own version of the story and there is also other versions and common sense. Of course you will stick solely to the Russian version. I don't expect anything else.

    I repeat it if you both still don't get it, i speak about my own knowledge from actual footage and not just some articles without proof, that i have not seen them, i do not deny that No atrocities happened, i just have not seen intentional mass killing.

    Yes but wait. There is the problem with what you do. You say you saw dead civilians who got killed by artillery and agree it is a crime. Damn Grozny was bombed back to stone age comrade. How do you call that ? there were thousands of people living in that city and it got obliterated. All the footages I saw, there was nothing left of a city only rubble and tens of thousands of civilians reportedly died in those two conflicts. How did they die then ? by the insurgents ? you make wild accusations against us when you have a slaughterhouse in your own backyard. How does that work ? you claim you saw the Chechnya war. Now you've also seen the 2008 war. When comparing them both, you come to the conclusion that Georgians were committing "intentional mass killing" and "genocide" with a handfull of supposed evidense and an artillery strike which all in all combined resulted in the death of 50 (HRW) to 160 civilians (Russian version), who might as well could have mostly been volunteers ? I get what you are doing, you don't need to repeat yourself .... but you are just blindly assuming things from Russian media circus too. It's not only West that spreads propaganda.

    You may address this to yourself but not to me, i am pretty open about what i say and i choose my words properly. The point you want to address calling me biased you as a georgian about georgian war can't be unbiased yourself, if we are talking plain about "taking sides" or "one sided".

    Sure. That is a valid assumption. That can be said about any side. I accept that because it is true.

    you as a georgian tell me who where they attacking sindie South Ossetia, i've never heared not from german, not from british or american and not from russian sources anything about militans or terrorists like in Chechnya since TR1 brought the comperision up, like you too? So who were the georgian army attacking?

    In the early stages of the operation Georgian army was fighting Ossetian volunteers ( where did I call them "terrorists" - it's not the same ! .... ) in Tskhinvali and Russian MC. Even every single Russian military analytical report and essay confirms that ( though I wouldn't take someone like Mikhail Barabanov serious any time soon because his biased report is filled with 20% objective military analysis and the rest silly patriotism and propaganda ). I don't believe you won't find any of those anywhere.

    GarryB wrote:Collateral damage is not genocide.

    Collateral damage is not genocide... don't know about local police in your area but the local police where I live dont use Grads to "save them" from terrorists.

    Something like that is called a war crime, not genocide ....

    And there is your problem... perhaps is saaka ordered the bombing of Moscow or your home village you might think no longer being popular in Georgia would be enough punnishment, but perhaps the people of South Ossetia and Abkhazia might not want good relations with Georgia while Saaka is a free man there or not held to account....

    ...By not prosecuting him they are saying what he did was not a crime... can you not see how that might be counter productive to any future reconciliation?

    You are both wrong. Saakashvili is more than wanted prosecuted and punished for his crimes. But the EU is protecting him and the government can't do shit unless they want to loose prospect of joining EU. Saakashvili made some effective PR and bought some EU parlimentarians on his side. His fellow regime members are not able to run around freely in Georgia. Every time they show up they get almost beaten to death. That's why most of them top decision makers are in protective custody before trial

    Sounds like South Ossetia and Abkhazia might think it is in their interests to formalise good relations with Russia.

    We will see about it. In the end it's all up to Russia.

    The attack on South Ossetia was not a rescue mission... it was a Waco mission... burn the place down. They might not have gone out of their way to kill the South Ossetians but clearly the plan was to make them leave... perhaps to block the Roki tunnel to prevent Russian support coming in.

    Ofc it wasn't a rescue mission. Since when is large scale military operation a rescue mission ? the goal was to capture the region, dislodge the from our constitutional POV illegitimate autonomous goverment and replace it with the "Ossetian goverment in exile" or provisional goverment, not to commit a senseless massacre on the population as the Russians like to portray it.

    While the Georgians killed were all innocent civilians.... keep playing the blame game... I am sure that will help them change their minds and want to rejoin Georgia again.... NOT.

    Nobody here said there were only Georgian civilian casualties. We lost quite a lot of military there too and the blame game is carried out by both sides.

    First of all you might notice in these threads that there are actually quite a few members calling attacks on Baghdad and Afghanistan and Palestine a crime... and if you remember correctly when Russian forces first rolled in to Grozny, they did so in columns without artillery or air support and the Chechens ignored that fig leaf and massacred them. If it had been Prague or another city that wasn't fortified for war it would have been a fait acomplait and the Russians could have taken the city without a shot being fired and no buildings being shelled... it was a choice the Chechens made for themselves.

    Don't take me wrong man, but when your city is invaded by a huge army you will take that opportunity to ambush and destroy them if they do it in such a clumsy way. It is called warfare.


    In comparison the unprovoked Georgian attack on South Ossetia started with artillery aimed at Russian peace keeper bases, and then seemed to have become random.

    Yes that was a crime also from my POV. We agree on this one.

    It is amusing you balance the issue by claiming the South Ossetians started evacuating a city that was being shelled by Georgian forces... what bastards they are!

    I am not "balancing" it, I'm pointing out the two-sided purpose of that. The Georgians especialy entered the city when it was evacuated. They most likely would have hesitated if that wasn't the case. Otherwise Tskhinvali would have been attacked months ago and that attack wasn't really a well organized, calculated and executed one. Saakashvili smelled the chance and he reacted quickly.

    Got to take Georgian side on this one. They got their act right, and now it's decent country were Russians and Russian speakers are welcomed.

    But no... Russia has Chechnia and Abkhazia has 1993 and only Georgia is a victim here.

    Only that nobody is claiming that. I allready pointed out in the beginning that the 2008 conflict particularly was all our fault.

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  Asf on Tue Jun 24, 2014 10:46 am

    Something like that is called a war crime, not genocide ....

    Is it better? And still it's not the evidence that a war crime wasn't commited in order to genocide south ossetians. BTW genocide is a war crime too


    the goal was to capture the region, dislodge the from our constitutional POV illegitimate autonomous goverment and replace it with the "Ossetian goverment in exile" or provisional goverment, not to commit a senseless massacre on the population as the Russians like to portray it.

    Using Grads against civilians and f***king killing the UNN peacekeepers is the right form of installing a constitutional order.

    Will you deny wars in 90s and in 2008 was inspired by georgian nationalism?


    Last edited by Asf on Tue Jun 24, 2014 10:58 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  TheGeorgian on Tue Jun 24, 2014 10:56 am

    Asf wrote:
    Something like that is called a war crime, not genocide ....

    Is it better? And still it's not the evidence that a war crime wasn't commited in order to genocide south ossetians. BTW genocide is a war crime too

    No, a crime is a crime nontheless. But it was not a genocide. That's redicilous almost insulting. Why would we carry out ethnic cleansing in that region ?? who would have supposedly stood behind that ? it's insane. There never was the atmosphere or attitude or suggestion from anyone to cleanse the region or any kind of hate towards Ossetians. That's what makes this a completly redicilous and offensive accusation. I'm just angry about such cheap ass propaganda people actualy believe in isntantly, like media was never biased or lying for the purpose to simply discredit the opponent and add to the justifications for war.

    Georgian army in 2008 simply turned out to be what I expected and feared. Undisciplined, unorganized and ill trained, badly equipped and badly lead military force. What achievements do you expect when an army is commanding via cell phones by politicians.

    Using Grads against civilians and f***king killing the UNN peacekeepers is the right form of installing a constitutional order.

    Obviously not.

    Will you deny wars in 90s and in 2008 was inspired by georgian nationalism?

    inspired by nationalism .... ? as in maintaining integrity maybe. I don't denie that Gamsakhurdia turned out to be a nationalist jerk but who lost all credibility and support pretty soon. It's not like Georgian love to have extremists as their rulers. If you can read back so far and imply so much about "nationalism" you should also know that there was a general civil war and Gamsakhurdia got overthrown and later died. There ends your short lived nationalism and argument. Now tell me, was the massacre on the Georgian population and the genocide in 1992-93 inspired by warm hearted hospitality ?


    Last edited by TheGeorgian on Tue Jun 24, 2014 11:20 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  Asf on Tue Jun 24, 2014 11:14 am

     Why would we carry out ethnic cleansing in that region ?

    Why would you ever assaulted South Ossetia? Why would you stab the peacekeepers in the back? May be because of bitter hatred exists from the times of the first war with Abkhazia and South ossetia? Or may be due to political line of Saakashvilli, who wanted those regions being "brought back" at any cost? What would you do with ossetians if they resist to live in Georgia even after the "reunification"?


     I don't denie that Gamsakhurdia turned out to be a nationalist jerk but who lost all credibility and support pretty soon

    I see no actual difference between them.


     Now tell me, was the massacre on the Georgian population and the genocide in 1992-93 inspired by warm hearted hospitality ?

    So a bitter hatred and revanchism did exict in georgian society, right?

    I'm not telling these guys were good, and whose guys were bad. But it was georgians who attacked the ossetians in 2008. And did it not in a chivalric manner.


    Last edited by Asf on Tue Jun 24, 2014 11:21 am; edited 3 times in total

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  macedonian on Tue Jun 24, 2014 11:19 am

    A bit offtop, but I really want to know, so bear with me please...

    @TheGeorgian

    Now after things have somewhat settled, how would you say Russia/Russians are perceived in Georgia?
    For me personally, it's a tragedy that Georgia and Russia were driven to the point of actually fighting a war.
    Only consolation is that it was a very brief conflict with not too much deaths on either side.

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  Asf on Tue Jun 24, 2014 11:23 am

    Georgian army in 2008 simply turned out to be what I expected and feared. Undisciplined, unorganized and ill trained, badly equipped and badly lead military force.

    I'm afraid those war crimes wasn't the fault of military force alone, but the people who lead them via cell phones. And their political goal was if not a genocide as it is but very close to it

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  TheGeorgian on Tue Jun 24, 2014 11:43 am

    Asf wrote:
     Why would we carry out ethnic cleansing in that region ?

    Why would you ever assaulted South Ossetia? Why would you stab the peacekeepers in the back? May be because of bitter hatred exists from the times of the first war with Abkhazia and South ossetia? Or may be due to political line of Saakashvilli, who wanted those regions being "brought back" at any cost? What would you do with ossetians if they resist to live in Georgia even after the "reunification"?

    One has absolutly nothing to do with the other. You are confusing Saakashvilis goals with general society. The answer to that is simple. Saakashvili wanted to remain in power and distract from internal political tension and economic catastrophies. Georgia was on the verge of another revolution. As you can remember there were those massive demonstrations that were brutaly cracked down in 2007. That pretty much marked his end. He allready started to loose popularity and credibility just half a year after he took charge. Because Western media falsely declared him "Beacon of Democracy" and even Russian media wants to make him a popular ruler for the Georgians just to keep justifications and exactly such accusations look valid, doesn't mean any of that is even remotely true.

    Every single Georgian who wasn't directly involved was caught by surprise and confused on what was going on in those days. Of course when Saakashvili claimed the country was being attacked by Russia, the people stood at his side and condemned Russia. What do you expect ? The possibility of that was ever present, especialy with all those border skirmishes. It has nothing to do with the population hating and backstabbing on someone.


    I see no actual difference between them.

    that's like saying you see now difference between communists and faschists or between party A and party B



    So a bitter hatred and revanchism did exict in georgian society, right?

    No. Because you know .... I kinda know my people and what they think either about Russians, Abkhaz and Ossetians and if something like that was present then it would be rather directed against the Abkhazians and not Ossetians .... kinda logical.

    I'm not telling these guys were good, and whose guys were bad. But it was georgians who attacked the ossetians in 2008. And did it not in a chivalric manner

    It certainly was not. It was a damn mistake attacking SO to begin with ! not because of Russian response but because it threw back what little diplomatic progress was achieved before Saakashvili ... and also because simply it didn't do anything but cause destruction and pain.

    Asf wrote:
    I'm afraid those war crimes wasn't the fault of military force alone, but the people who lead them via cell phones. And their political goal was if not a genocide as it is but very close to it

    Agree to the first part. Second part is nonsense.

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  flamming_python on Tue Jun 24, 2014 11:51 am

    TheGeorgian wrote:
    TR1 wrote:You might have a problem:

    They are going to hold a referendum to join Russia or not.

    I don't have much strong feelings one way or another, but Russia and Georgia need to put the past behind them and move on. Senseless to be neighbors and enemies, Especially with so many people living across the state borders of both nations.

    Yes I know this. Hopefully it won't happen. I still think in the end Russia won't agree on that. Apart of not wanting it themselves they got to expect a massive deteriorate of the allready strained political relations between our two countries. It certainly isn't in the interest of any side.

    Yeah it won't happen; S. Ossetia joining Russia that is. Hopefully Georgia can convince the Abkhaz and Ossetians to re-unite. But it won't come immediately, and it may not work at all.
    Georgia has to be prepared for some very hard work and building up its economy, etc..


    Last edited by flamming_python on Tue Jun 24, 2014 11:53 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  TheGeorgian on Tue Jun 24, 2014 11:52 am

    macedonian wrote:A bit offtop, but I really want to know, so bear with me please...

    @TheGeorgian

    Now after things have somewhat settled, how would you say Russia/Russians are perceived in Georgia?
    For me personally, it's a tragedy that Georgia and Russia were driven to the point of actually fighting a war.
    Only consolation is that it was a very brief conflict with not too much deaths on either side.

    Russians per se are perceived like they allways were. We like Russians. There is no such thing as general hatred towards them. This goes vice versa as far as I'm aware. There are allways people on both sides who are confused by emotions but anger fades away over time. But from political view of the people, they are being seen as an occupation force.

    On a side note though: the people living near the DMZs are frequently being assaulted or forced out of their homes or kidnapped. They probably not so happy. Especialy since the construction of those giant fences and walls that tend to "accidently" stretch into uncontested areas simply because the gov doesn't respond. Very regressive.

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  Asf on Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:07 pm

    You are confusing Saakashvilis goals with general society. The answer to that is simple. Saakashvili wanted to remain in power and distract from internal political tension and economic catastrophies.

    I didn't tell all georgians wanted ossetians dead. But still bitterness and nationalism which were already present became good tools for him. Am sure there were plenty of his supporters throughout society, who thought Georgia has to be reunited by the military power and bloodshed if needed


    Last edited by Asf on Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:10 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  macedonian on Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:08 pm

    TheGeorgian wrote:Russians per se are perceived like they allways were. We like Russians. There is no such thing as general hatred towards them. This goes vice versa as far as I'm aware. There are allways people on both sides who are confused by emotions but anger fades away over time. But from political view of the people, they are being seen as an occupation force.
    Thanks for that reply man. Appreciated.

    TheGeorgian wrote:On a side note though: the people living near the DMZs are frequently being assaulted or forced out of their homes or kidnapped. They probably not so happy. Especialy since the construction of those giant fences and walls that tend to "accidently" stretch into uncontested areas because the GAF isn't present.
    Didn't know about that, and if true that sh/t really needs to stop pronto!
    One thing one can't accuse the Russians of is being *subtle*...and using soft power...that sometimes makes me truly sad/mad.
    Russia needs to win back hearts and minds in Georgia, it's the only logical thing to do. At the end of the day people will have to live together with their neighbors, and America isn't Georgia's neighbor but Russia is. Hope cooler heads prevail on both sides...reconciliation will take time though.

    გაგიმარჯოს!

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  Asf on Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:33 pm

    Didn't know about that, and if true that sh/t really needs to stop pronto!

    I think it's true. You know, if two nations shoot each other with SVDs for about 20 years, and then one of the nations break the unstable peace with a full scale assault, the situation won't come to a "hearthy hospitality". South ossetians tell about georgians lived in the South Ossetia: "We lived like neighbours those years and now they are supporting Saakashvilli's genocide, took weapons he gave to them, ect." So I wouldn't be that positive about "civilised georgians who wanted to restore a constitutional order but made few mistakes" and "ossetian criminals kidnapping people and placing the walls with russian support behind their backs". It must be hard for the Georgian to admit, but georgians deserved all this crap. it is a democracy after all, they took their responsibility for the leader they elected... kind of. Now it's only time to heal wounds

     if something like that was present then it would be rather directed against the Abkhazians and not Ossetians .... kinda logical.

    We all know Abkhazia wasn't attacked only because of the Russian Army stopped Saakashvilli from solving problems by force.

    that's like saying you see now difference between communists and faschists or between party A and party B

    Here you go, an excuse for faschism. Now will you tell me about Stalin (who was georgian btw) killing millions and occupying Eastern Europe or something? Who was the communist one then - Saakashvilli or Gamsakhurdia? I'll tell you - both of them was ruthless politicians who used direct force and nationalist rhetoric for their benefit, and nothing more

     It was a damn mistake

    It was not a mistake, it was the plan.

    Agree to the first part. Second part is nonsense.

    Nonsence? I see much sence for Saakashvilli in pushing ossetians to the Northern part of Ossetia or at least forcing them into submission by continious applying such war crimes as shooting civilians to unite the country and join NATO or whatever they proclaimed to do

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  macedonian on Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:48 pm

    Asf wrote:
    Didn't know about that, and if true that sh/t really needs to stop pronto!

    I think it's true. You know, if two nations shoot each other with SVDs for about 20 years, and then one of the nations break the unstable peace with a full scale assault it wo't come to a "hearthy hospitality". South ossetians tell about georgians lived in the South Ossetia: "We lived like neighbours those years and now they are supporting Saakashvilli's genocide, took weapons he gave to them, ect." So I wouldn't be that positive about "civilised georgians who wanted to restore a constitutional order but made few mistakes" and "ossetian criminals kidnapping people and placing the walls with russian support behind their backs". It must be hard for the Georgian to admit, but georgians deserved all this crap. it is a democracy after all, they took their responsibility for the leader they elected.

    Regarding that bold part:

    Why is it that people on this forum often post a claim as if someone else has made it, and in the same post they "bravely and logically" refute the said claim?!
    I saw no one claiming that but yourself. And you are the one refuting it...it's like you're treating us with your monologue, right?
    Well, thanks...but no thanks.

    I merely wanted to know more about the situation, not take sides. And you ain't helping.
    And if I did takes sides, I'll be on the side of whomever is right, not the side that I prefer (which is obviously Russia in this case). Sorry, but I don't think that way.
    This might come as a shock to you, but I KNOW that tensions run high before/during/after conflicts and that it takes time for people to calm the fcuk down.
    Something you need to think about as well.

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  Regular on Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:50 pm

    To asf
    Georgian SSR can be defined as a country. Why not? It wasn't sovereign and had to follow guidelines from Moscow, but it was up to them to govern themselves. Even in late 80s it looked more than a country than those horse abortion of a countries like Ukraine and Belarus of today.
    And bout chechnya.
    What separatists? Don't you remember after Chechnya declared sovereignity, Russians, Armenians and even some Chechens started fighting for survival or power. Anti-Dudaev forces were formed and later supported by Russia. They were the ones who wanted rejoin Russia.
    They attacked Grozny along with Russian troops twice. After they were repelled Russia bombed military and administrational buildings.
    When anti Dudaev forces lost momentum and eventually ability to wage war, Russians moved in. Before Grozny there were serious clashes too. Russian armoured columns were pounded by chechen artillery. Why they went to 'parade' to Grozny. Khuy knows. All the blame what happened to Russian boys in Grozny falls to politicians and generals. Yelcin already betrayed his OMON. Fucking bastard.

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  Asf on Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:51 pm

    Why is it that people on this forum often post a claim as if someone else has made it, and in the same post they "bravely and logically" refute the said claim?!

    It's a common tradition among the internet users  Smile 

    Still, it's only the Georgian's words. He speak about "mistakes" made on the road to a good cause e.g. reunification of the country, and on the other hand describe ossetians as criminals who kidnaps people. What is he waiting now from ossetians after georgians have done? "Hearthy hospitality"?

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  macedonian on Tue Jun 24, 2014 1:00 pm

    Asf wrote:
    Why is it that people on this forum often post a claim as if someone else has made it, and in the same post they "bravely and logically" refute the said claim?!

    It's a common tradition among the internet users  Smile 

    It's a sh/tty traditiion if you ask me. Kills the discussion.

    Asf wrote:Still, it's only the Georgian's words. He speak about "mistakes" made on the road to a good cause e.g. reunification of the country, and on the other hand describe ossetians as criminals who kidnaps people. What is he waiting now from ossetians after georgians have done? "Hearthy hospitality"?

    Well, what do you expect?
    Of course people are going to promote their country, even show bias.
    I know I would. And so would you.
    The trick is to AT LEAST TRY to be as impartial as possible. And so far he has shown that.
    The useless bickering is just killing the discussion.

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  Asf on Tue Jun 24, 2014 1:10 pm

    Georgian SSR can be defined as a country. Why not? 

    Because country isn't only a legal term or a couple of national myths. It's a matter of independancy, of a state system. Not every group of people can make their own country. It needs great time for a state to succeed, and most of modern states are just a puppets of true powers of the world, divided to be conquered and poisoned with their pathetic nationalsm and false uniqueness. They look like a ghetto neighbour gangs fighting each other because "South central is better than Groove Street".
    Modern Georgia didn't have experience of living as a true country before, and all other fragments of the USSR dosen't. All those national struggles - in Azerbaigzhan, in Georgia, in Moldova, in Ukraine now, even in Russia - are because of the archaization of people's mentality due to dessolution of the true State into smaller parts which wasn't ment to be separated in a collosal machine of the USSR. It's like a modern Middle Ages with modern feodalism and barbarism - thoughts of progress and greater deeds are gone, placed by thoughts of a "Greater and United Failstan" or "Russia for russians only".


    Last edited by Asf on Tue Jun 24, 2014 1:13 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  Asf on Tue Jun 24, 2014 1:10 pm

    It's a sh/tty traditiion if you ask me. Kills the discussion.

    True

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  TheGeorgian on Tue Jun 24, 2014 1:11 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    Yeah it won't happen; S. Ossetia joining Russia that is. Hopefully Georgia can convince the Abkhaz and Ossetians to re-unite. But it won't come immediately, and it may not work at all.
    Georgia has to be prepared for some very hard work and building up its economy, etc..

    This is where I see a chance too. We simply should become attractive and kinda find back to eachother diplomaticaly. There's no other option and this is a very good one imho

    Asf wrote:I didn't tell all georgians wanted ossetians dead. But still bitterness and nationalism which were already present became good tools for him. Am sure there were plenty of his supporters throughout society, who thought Georgia has to be reunited by the military power and bloodshed if needed

    That is true. Saakashvili still has a lot of supporters. It's mainly because he bought their support. I personaly know one of those. Without Saakashvili she wouldn't have been able to build a business in Turkey. There are also some fanatics like that, who would prefer military solution. But those people speak for themselves. The majority doesn't share their views on the world.

    Of course there is bitterness because of what happened in the past but people don't suddenly turn blood lusted and mad because some Politician occasionaly reminds them of it. People have other concerns, like plowing fields, somehow feeding their families and trying to find a job. Speaking of Saakashvili. You assume, don't know. He never tried to stirr peoples emotions against the separatists rather against Russians. He allways referred to the Abkhaz and Ossetians as brothers and that they are being mislead by trusting Russia. Apart of that, from 2006-2007 he was rather busy with somehow remaining in power than anything else. The 2008 was just a last act out of frustration because the opposition planned another massive rally against him. And sadly it worked.

    macedonian wrote:
    Didn't know about that, and if true that sh/t really needs to stop pronto!
    One thing one can't accuse the Russians of is being *subtle*...and using soft power...that sometimes makes me truly sad/mad.
    Russia needs to win back hearts and minds in Georgia, it's the only logical thing to do. At the end of the day people will have to live together with their neighbors, and America isn't Georgia's neighbor but Russia is. Hope cooler heads prevail on both sides...reconciliation will take time though.

    გაგიმარჯოს!

    That is true. America isn't our neighbour and we too should put a lot of efforst to normalise relations with them, what we currently are trying to. Without any bias, I can say that our goverment ( apart of sucking too much EU **** and not consequently prosecuting Saakashvili ) does everything they can to improve relations with Russia. Russia does seem interested in that too with allowing us limited trade into the Federation and also air travels etc. Yet they still condinue regressive border provocations and that doesn't speak much for cool headed. We can be as cool headed as we want, we don't even deploy any kind of military or police along the DMZ when such things happen ( it's also because if we did, we would recognize their newly drawn borders ). But actions like that will only increase tension over time and that should not happen. We are doing our part. Russian side could start with reverting that fence policy. We're in the 21st century and don't need another wall ....

    გაგიმარჯოს!  Wink 

    Asf wrote:
    It was not a mistake, it was the plan.

    When I said mistake I meant that they shouldn't have done that in first place.[/quote]

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  Asf on Tue Jun 24, 2014 1:16 pm

    The majority doesn't share their views on the world. 

    Well, it's always an active minority which rules to my regret


     He never tried to stirr peoples emotions against the separatists rather against Russians. He allways referred to the Abkhaz and Ossetians as brothers and that they are being mislead by trusting Russia.

    Let me guess. It's like Ukraine - there are ukrainian commoners in the South-East who are mislead by russian terrorists and criminals and is waiting to be freed by ukrainian army, but still there are bombardments of civilian areas, because in reality people dosen't support the goverment. Seems like a working scheme.


    Last edited by Asf on Tue Jun 24, 2014 1:21 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  TheGeorgian on Tue Jun 24, 2014 1:19 pm

    Asf wrote:
    The majority doesn't share their views on the world. 

    Well, it's always an active minority which rules to my regret

    Well that is true and unfortunate indeed.

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  Regular on Tue Jun 24, 2014 4:14 pm

    Asf wrote:
    Georgian SSR can be defined as a country. Why not? 

    Because country isn't only a legal term or a couple of national myths. It's a matter of independancy, of a state system. Not every group of people can make their own country. It needs great time for a state to succeed, and most of modern states are just a puppets of true powers of the world, divided to be conquered and poisoned with their pathetic nationalsm and false uniqueness. They look like a ghetto neighbour gangs fighting each other because "South central is better than Groove Street".
    Modern Georgia didn't have experience of living as a true country before, and all other fragments of the USSR dosen't. All those national struggles - in Azerbaigzhan, in Georgia, in Moldova, in Ukraine now, even in Russia - are because of the archaization of people's mentality due to dessolution of the true State into smaller parts which wasn't ment to be separated in a collosal machine of the USSR. It's like a modern Middle Ages with modern feodalism and barbarism - thoughts of progress and greater deeds are gone, placed by thoughts of a "Greater and United Failstan" or "Russia for russians only".
    Can I ask You where did You learn what is definition of a country? It is clearly different then mine. Maybe I'm wrong? Tell me again why excatly Georgia wasn't a country as Georgian SSR?
    No need for a epic tales about True state thing. Wrong person. So called true state did good job for us. My father was 1 of 4 children who survived socialistic paradise in Sibir.
    You might be right about failed states and lack of purpose, but I remember life in soviet union too good not to feel very nostalgic.

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  macedonian on Tue Jun 24, 2014 4:33 pm

    Regular wrote:Can I ask You where did You learn what is definition of a country? It is clearly different then mine. Maybe I'm wrong? Tell me again why excatly Georgia wasn't a country as Georgian SSR?
    No need for a epic tales about True state thing. Wrong person. So called true state did good job for us. My father was 1 of 4 children who survived socialistic paradise in Sibir.  
    You might be right about failed states and lack of purpose, but I remember life in soviet union too good not to feel very nostalgic.

    Oh, don't mind him...
    He just want's to troll from time to time...he's OK though...(I hope).

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