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    Black Sea Fleet vs Turkish Navy

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    TR1
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    Re: Black Sea Fleet vs Turkish Navy

    Post  TR1 on Sat Sep 28, 2013 10:51 pm

    dionis wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    The best on-board ASCM option is either the SM-39 or UGM-84 Harpoon. If Turkey can procure SM 29 and UGM 84 Harpoon in sufficient number there is very little that the RuAF can do.
    Even their tiniest Corvette will have a 30mm gatling gun answer to a subsonic Harpoon or Exocet. If Turkey could procure B-2s in sufficient number... say 1,000 of them then the Russian military will not have enough AAMs to shoot them all down and therefore some will make it to Moscow!

    Every Black Sea Fleet ship in the Russian Navy carries a better anti ship missile than the Exocet or Harpoon.
    Eh? I mean for the Slava that's obvious, but the Kara/Kashin/Krivak class vessels carry the Uran at best (which isn't better than even the Harpoon). Then the others have the SS-N-14, which is crap.

    Uran has 260km range, does Harpoon?

    The BSF also has small rocket ships with Moskit.

    Metel is no worse tactically than Exocet, and obviously is dual role.

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    Re: Black Sea Fleet vs Turkish Navy

    Post  flamming_python on Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:40 am

    dionis wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    The best on-board ASCM option is either the SM-39 or UGM-84 Harpoon. If Turkey can procure SM 29 and UGM 84 Harpoon in sufficient number there is very little that the RuAF can do.
    Even their tiniest Corvette will have a 30mm gatling gun answer to a subsonic Harpoon or Exocet. If Turkey could procure B-2s in sufficient number... say 1,000 of them then the Russian military will not have enough AAMs to shoot them all down and therefore some will make it to Moscow!

    Every Black Sea Fleet ship in the Russian Navy carries a better anti ship missile than the Exocet or Harpoon.
    Eh? I mean for the Slava that's obvious, but the Kara/Kashin/Krivak class vessels carry the Uran at best (which isn't better than even the Harpoon). Then the others have the SS-N-14, which is crap.

    And all the Tu-22M3s equipped with Kh-22 that impact at near hypersonic speeds and will have the range to target any ship in the Black Sea even if launched from the airspace over Krasnodar?
    The Kh-15 will pose a similar problem for the Turkish fleet albeit the Tu-22M3s will have to get in within 300km range of a ship before launching.

    Decrease the range further and you'll find such weapons as the Kh-31, possibly even Kh-29 being employed against Turkish ships by tactical aviation such as Su-34s, Su-27s and MiG-29s

    And of course some of these models can be armed with nuclear warheads instead of conventional payloads.

    Not a good time to be a Turk on the Black Sea.

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    Re: Black Sea Fleet vs Turkish Navy

    Post  TR1 on Sun Sep 29, 2013 1:06 am

    Kh-15 is gone gone gone.


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    Re: Black Sea Fleet vs Turkish Navy

    Post  GarryB on Sun Sep 29, 2013 9:37 am

    Eh? I mean for the Slava that's obvious, but the Kara/Kashin/Krivak class vessels carry the Uran at best (which isn't better than even the Harpoon). Then the others have the SS-N-14, which is crap.

    Hahahaha... I love the irony my friend... because SS-N-14 is a subsonic missile that admittedly has a shorter range than "Harpoon", but a real harpoon is a short ranged weapon for killing underwater creatures... and I think SS-N-14 is rather better than so called Harpoon than that.

    Another factor is that SS-N-14 carries a 300kg HE warhead in addition to a 100kg+ Torpedo warhead and would be rather more devastating to the target than Harpoon and in the late models it has dual IR and Radar guidance... again no Harpoon has ever had that feature.

    Kh-15 is gone gone gone.
    And was only ever available in the nuclear version with no active anti ship model (that was only ever a proposal).

    Of course the Kh-32, which is a mach 4.5 missile with a flight range of 600km is almost as fast but with double the range of the proposed Kh-15.


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    Re: Black Sea Fleet vs Turkish Navy

    Post  flamming_python on Sun Sep 29, 2013 10:18 am

    TR1 wrote:Kh-15 is gone gone gone.

    Really? What lead to its demise?

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    Re: Black Sea Fleet vs Turkish Navy

    Post  TR1 on Sun Sep 29, 2013 10:52 am

    flamming_python wrote:
    TR1 wrote:Kh-15 is gone gone gone.

    Really? What lead to its demise?
    Missiles got old, and it was nuke only. They only made sub 300 of them in any case, and prolonging the missile life was not seen as worthwhile.

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    Re: Black Sea Fleet vs Turkish Navy

    Post  Stealthflanker on Sun Sep 29, 2013 1:02 pm

    TR1 wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:
    TR1 wrote:Kh-15 is gone gone gone.

    Really? What lead to its demise?
    Missiles got old, and it was nuke only. They only made sub 300 of them in any case, and prolonging the missile life was not seen as worthwhile.
    so it's meet the same fate as the AGM-131 SRAM. cry 

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    Re: Black Sea Fleet vs Turkish Navy

    Post  dionis on Sun Sep 29, 2013 8:11 pm

    TR1 wrote:
    dionis wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    The best on-board ASCM option is either the SM-39 or UGM-84 Harpoon. If Turkey can procure SM 29 and UGM 84 Harpoon in sufficient number there is very little that the RuAF can do.
    Even their tiniest Corvette will have a 30mm gatling gun answer to a subsonic Harpoon or Exocet. If Turkey could procure B-2s in sufficient number... say 1,000 of them then the Russian military will not have enough AAMs to shoot them all down and therefore some will make it to Moscow!

    Every Black Sea Fleet ship in the Russian Navy carries a better anti ship missile than the Exocet or Harpoon.
    Eh? I mean for the Slava that's obvious, but the Kara/Kashin/Krivak class vessels carry the Uran at best (which isn't better than even the Harpoon). Then the others have the SS-N-14, which is crap.

    Uran has 260km range, does Harpoon?

    The BSF also has small rocket ships with Moskit.

    Metel is no worse tactically than Exocet, and obviously is dual role.
    260km range for the Uran is for some new version no doubt - any evidence these are deployed in the BSF? Can the ships even use them to their max range?

    And yes, Harpoon does have a quoted 278km range in the RGM-84F version. I suppose the question is, are these deployed in the Turkish fleet?


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    Re: Black Sea Fleet vs Turkish Navy

    Post  TR1 on Sun Sep 29, 2013 10:09 pm

    Not some exotic new version- just the Russian produced one with the newer (post-Soviet) Russian engine. The old ones had Ukrainian engines, and will or already have run out of service life.


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    Re: Black Sea Fleet vs Turkish Navy

    Post  dionis on Sun Sep 29, 2013 10:45 pm

    TR1 wrote:Not some exotic new version- just the Russian produced one with the newer (post-Soviet) Russian engine. The old ones had Ukrainian engines, and will or already have run out of service life.

    The Kh-35U? That's a new development as far as I know.

    And TMC still shows the 130KM version on their website.


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    Re: Black Sea Fleet vs Turkish Navy

    Post  TR1 on Sun Sep 29, 2013 11:06 pm

    Russia did a major strategic overhaul of its tactical missile engines, to prevent outside sources (Ukraine) from becoming an issue.
    Any new missiles it buys, made by the Tactical Missile Corps use Russian engines, and hence would have improved range.

    Range of course matters on launch platform, I haven't seen specifics as to Harpoon or Kh-35 range when launched from land vs say air.
    But it is very unlikely they get 200 + KM when launched from ships.

    Kh-35 is a newer design though, would not surprise me that it outranges Harpoon if we compare similar (vintage wise) versions.
    Kh-35 used turbofan from the start, unlike Haproons solid fuel engine + turbojet.

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    Re: Black Sea Fleet vs Turkish Navy

    Post  GarryB on Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:20 am

    Really? What lead to its demise?
    Lack of a conventionally armed model.

    Its main trick was a mach 5 dive onto a target that was emitting radar energy... now they have Kh-32 which does a similar job (mach 4.5) over a much greater range and can use conventional and nuke armed versions with active and passive guidance... presumably including a much more accurate GLONASS guided alternative.

    And TMC still shows the 130KM version on their website.
    Export model?



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    Re: Black Sea Fleet vs Turkish Navy

    Post  dionis on Tue Oct 01, 2013 11:22 pm

    GarryB wrote:

    And TMC still shows the 130KM version on their website.
    Export model?

    It's all export models there.

    MTCR does not apply to the Kh-35.

    Kh-35E = 130KM

    Kh-35UE = 260KM

    I've seen no evidence whatsoever that there's any of the 260KM versions in service with the BSF.


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    Re: Black Sea Fleet vs Turkish Navy

    Post  TR1 on Tue Oct 01, 2013 11:35 pm

    The BSF has received coastal BAL complexes recently, and they are with the Russian engines Kh-35.

    Chances are we won't get any "evidence" any time soon, but given how many times the BSF fires its Urans, you can bet within a few years any older stock missiles be expended.

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    Re: Black Sea Fleet vs Turkish Navy

    Post  dionis on Tue Oct 01, 2013 11:47 pm

    TR1 wrote:The BSF has received coastal BAL complexes recently, and they are with the Russian engines Kh-35.

    Chances are we won't get any "evidence" any time soon, but given how many times the BSF fires its Urans, you can bet within a few years any older stock missiles be expended.
    Which ships even carry Uran? I'm counting more of the Metel than anything, not counting the Tarantul boats.

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    Re: Black Sea Fleet vs Turkish Navy

    Post  TR1 on Tue Oct 01, 2013 11:56 pm

    Not many, just Smetlivy (gonna be gone soon) and whatever new rocket/gunboats they get after Caspian gets its fill. Assuming Tatarstan doesn't drop by like it often does by Novorosiisk.

    Mind you Metel itself is only employed by Kerch + Ladnyy + Pitlivvy, which will be gone around the same Smetlivy.

    If anything the most common missile by pure tube count is much better than both Moskit.

    That will change this decade as the UKSK ships become the majority by 2020.

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    Re: Black Sea Fleet vs Turkish Navy

    Post  dionis on Wed Oct 02, 2013 5:49 am

    TR1 wrote:Not many, just Smetlivy (gonna be gone soon) and whatever new rocket/gunboats they get after Caspian gets its fill. Assuming Tatarstan doesn't drop by like it often does by Novorosiisk.

    Mind you Metel itself is only employed by Kerch + Ladnyy + Pitlivvy, which will be gone around the same Smetlivy.

    If anything the most common missile by pure tube count is much better than both Moskit.

    That will change this decade as the UKSK ships become the majority by 2020.
    Moskit range was always a little confusing.

    Is the navy limited to 120KM range?

    I know some variants have a high flight profile option with 240KM range..

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    Re: Black Sea Fleet vs Turkish Navy

    Post  TR1 on Wed Oct 02, 2013 7:59 am

    Yeah it is a flight profile difference. Mind you when all these ( no matter the country) small missiles show amazing ranges it is usually air launched, Mach 1 + high altitude launch. Slow moving ship? Good luck getting that long range Smile
    Hell, Kh-31 PD range changes from like 20-30km max to over 240 in a lofted high alt/speed launch .

    The Chinese navy got extended range variants, so naval based weapons are definitely not limited to 120km.

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    Re: Black Sea Fleet vs Turkish Navy

    Post  flamming_python on Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:48 am

    OMG what are you guys even talking about? Sad 
    Like - hellooo? The Steregushchiy class corvettes carry the Kh-35 Switchblade

    Let's not forget the air launched version either. Hell, it can even be launched from a helicopter (Ka-52 in the future maybe?).
    Although I don't know if this version has been ordered/is in service.

    Give some love for it; not every target needs a high-supersonic ship-buster with a half-ton warhead. The Kh-35 is cheap, short, light and can be launched from a greater variety of platforms than anything else.


    Last edited by flamming_python on Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:56 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Black Sea Fleet vs Turkish Navy

    Post  TR1 on Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:52 am

    flamming_python wrote:OMG what are you guys even talking about? Sad 
    Like - hellooo? The Steregushchiy class corvettes carry the Kh-35 Switchblade
    Well...only the Steregyshy does, none of the others do.

    Also there are none in the Black Sea Wink

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    Re: Black Sea Fleet vs Turkish Navy

    Post  flamming_python on Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:58 am

    TR1 wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:OMG what are you guys even talking about? Sad 
    Like - hellooo? The Steregushchiy class corvettes carry the Kh-35 Switchblade
    Well...only the Steregyshy does, none of the others do.

    Also there are none in the Black Sea Wink
    Oh I see.
    But wait - aren't all the Steregushchiy class vessels meant to be equipped with it? (Gremashchiys don't count)

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    Re: Black Sea Fleet vs Turkish Navy

    Post  GarryB on Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:03 am

    The 120km range flight profile of the Moskit was purely for anti AEGIS use and when launched on that flight profile the maximum height it achieves is 300m to find its target where it drops down to below 7m which is the altitude it flys at for the rest of the attack.

    AEGIS used Standard missiles in the 1980s which couldn't hit targets below 7m above the wave tops... Phalanx can't hit targets at that height either so the AEGIS class vessel is dead meat.

    That was what Moskit was designed for from the outset.


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    Re: Black Sea Fleet vs Turkish Navy

    Post  TR1 on Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:13 am

    flamming_python wrote:
    TR1 wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:OMG what are you guys even talking about? Sad 
    Like - hellooo? The Steregushchiy class corvettes carry the Kh-35 Switchblade
    Well...only the Steregyshy does, none of the others do.

    Also there are none in the Black Sea Wink
    Oh I see.
    But wait - aren't all the Steregushchiy class vessels meant to be equipped with it? (Gremashchiys don't count)
    No only the first ship has Uran, the rest are all UKSK equipped, starting with first serial unit - Soobrazitelny.

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    Re: Black Sea Fleet vs Turkish Navy

    Post  TheArmenian on Wed Oct 02, 2013 10:23 am

    No. No UKSK on Soobraz, Boiky, SToiky. They are equipped with Uran and Redut SAM.
    The updated ones, Gremyashy onwards will have the UKSKs plus the Redut SAM.

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    Re: Black Sea Fleet vs Turkish Navy

    Post  GarryB on Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:04 am

    Well...only the Steregyshy does, none of the others do.

    Also there are none in the Black Sea
    But the Navys goals are standardisation and unification of weapons and systems and propulsion and sensors... so eventually even the vessels of the Black Sea will have Klubs and Onyxs or better... subs, and corvettes to carriers.

    They are equipped with Uran and Redut SAM.
    Ironically the Rif-M can be targetted against ground/surface targets, so while its 150kg warhead might be rather less than a Granit, at mach 6 it would be one of the faster missiles you could fire at targets up to 400km away.


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