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    Su-25SM numbers

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    TR1
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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  TR1 on Tue May 21, 2013 10:07 pm

    Wonder what munitions they are talking about.

    The defense suit is the interesting thing here. I was not aware any sot of active IR defense was fitted yet. Media bs?

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  GarryB on Wed May 22, 2013 3:30 am

    In addition, the complex includes protection against missiles targeting the thermal head, which blinds the enemy ammunition with a laser beam.

    That is a DIRCMs... I think Vitebsk-25 is the military designation for the President-M/-S system.

    Regarding the munitions... I would suspect they are talking about GLONASS guided bombs or missiles... or perhaps it is GLONASS guided HERMES?


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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  Cyberspec on Wed May 22, 2013 11:39 am

    Viktor wrote:The Su-25 strike taught four goals at the same time...

    Nice....that's a significant upgrade compared to the original SM's...

    GarryB wrote:I think Vitebsk-25 is the military designation for the President-M/-S system.

    Vitebsk is the domestic variant of the President-S. I guess, the Vitebsk-25 is the variant for the Su-25

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  medo on Wed May 22, 2013 4:17 pm

    Isn't Vitebsk a radar jammer to protect a plane from ARH missiles like AMRAAM? I hear that Vitebsk jammer will be also installed in Ka-52.

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  Cyberspec on Wed May 22, 2013 11:08 pm

    medo wrote:Isn't Vitebsk a radar jammer to protect a plane from ARH missiles like AMRAAM? I hear that Vitebsk jammer will be also installed in Ka-52.

    I'm pretty sure it's L370 Vitebsk produced by NII Ekran, marketed as "President-S" for export

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  GarryB on Thu May 23, 2013 12:44 am

    Isn't Vitebsk a radar jammer to protect a plane from ARH missiles like AMRAAM? I hear that Vitebsk jammer will be also installed in Ka-52.

    I think Cyberspec is right... the self defence systems wont be separate components like they used to be, they will be suites of systems, and likely they wont custom design a system for each platform type, more likely they will develop a system and then make variants optimised for the platform it will be installed on.


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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  Cyberspec on Thu May 23, 2013 12:13 pm

    GarryB wrote:...the self defence systems wont be separate components like they used to be, they will be suites of systems...

    Looks like it. The Vitebsk-25 apparently has both a radar jammer as well as laser-DIRCM system

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  Vympel on Sun Jun 09, 2013 6:35 am

    Related:

    http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/6/0/1/2270106.jpg

    These Su-25T's are rotting away, being ignored probably.

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  TR1 on Sun Jun 09, 2013 6:48 am

    Yeah they have been out of service (aside from a few @ Kubinka for a while now).

    No point in keeping them around, they were very raw birds in any case.

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:26 am

    I would suspect they would not be fully tested or operational as they were not accepted into service so their systems were probably not fully developed.

    It sounds like Sukhoi is going to be implementing a full upgrade of the Su-25s, to be followed in 2020 or so by a complete replacement for the Su-25 in CAS.


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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sun Jun 09, 2013 1:53 pm

    I persoanally think that a future CAS doesn't need to have an LO airframe since it since it gives significantly lower weapon capacity and IR and optical missiles are more likely to be a threat along with gun AA rather than radar SAMs not to mention low altitude flight gives less radar signature and ECM can do an equal job.
    Instead I think the future Russian CAS should have the following components:
    -37-45mm revolver cannon or gunpods
    -APS against SAMs
    -improved ECM
    -lower IR signature
    -Composite ceramic or laminated armor capable of protecting against >20mm AP munitions
    -improved maneuverability and staying power on the battlefield

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  sepheronx on Mon Jun 10, 2013 3:00 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:I persoanally think that a future CAS doesn't need to have an LO airframe since it since it gives significantly lower weapon capacity and IR and optical missiles are more likely to be a threat along with gun AA rather than radar SAMs not to mention low altitude flight gives less radar signature and ECM can do an equal job.
    Instead I think the future Russian CAS should have the following components:
    -37-45mm revolver cannon or gunpods
    -APS against SAMs
    -improved ECM
    -lower IR signature
    -Composite ceramic or laminated armor capable of protecting against >20mm AP munitions
    -improved maneuverability and staying power on the battlefield

    Spot on.

    The current and any future Su-25's (this goes along with all aircrafts) are to get new ECM/ECCM/EW sub-systems. The reason is specifically tied to the fact that SAM's were effective against RuAF in the 080808 war. Great planes, but with lack of these subsystems, any plane is heavily susceptible to SAM's.

    Su-25 is a great aircraft for what it does. Add on these electronic sub-systems with improved optical systems like a FLIR pod (or replace the system that is in the nose currently with some sort of FLIR system) and the aircraft would be significantly better. Actually, add on cheaper AT missiles to the aircraft as well, and it would be even more effective against tanks and would end up being a CAS aircraft.

    Wasn't there a guidance system at one point presented to Russian MoD for the S-8 missiles?

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jun 11, 2013 1:06 pm

    Actually, add on cheaper AT missiles to the aircraft as well, and it would be even more effective against tanks and would end up being a CAS aircraft.

    The Shval-M system of the Su-25TM was a fairly sophisticated video processing system similar in concept to TV guided Mavericks except the optical system is in the nose of the aircraft and is used to direct a laser to aim the missiles (Vikhr-M) to targets. This way the missile is simple and cheap laser beam riding missiles but the system is precise and accurate and can engage almost any target because of its video lock rather than an IR or radar lock.

    A new system for use with Hermes missiles would be a very useful step.

    The guidance system for unguided rockets is called Ugroza.


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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Jun 11, 2013 4:07 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Actually, add on cheaper AT missiles to the aircraft as well, and it would be even more effective against tanks and would end up being a CAS aircraft.

    The Shval-M system of the Su-25TM was a fairly sophisticated video processing system similar in concept to TV guided Mavericks except the optical system is in the nose of the aircraft and is used to direct a laser to aim the missiles (Vikhr-M) to targets. This way the missile is simple and cheap laser beam riding missiles but the system is precise and accurate and can engage almost any target because of its video lock rather than an IR or radar lock.

    A new system for use with Hermes missiles would be a very useful step.

    The guidance system for unguided rockets is called Ugroza.

    Yes, I remember reading about the Su-25T many years ago. Too bad the system never went past the one or so prototypes. I heard it was very successful during the second Chechen war. Really did not understand why they did not go further with them.

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  TR1 on Tue Jun 11, 2013 10:28 pm

    On the contrary, the plane showed how raw it was in Chechnya. Both in flight performance and in the systems.

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jun 12, 2013 1:26 pm

    It was also rather expensive... particularly the optical attack system called Shkval-M, which is related to the system fitted to the Ka-50 Hokum.

    Personally I would love to see some of the systems developed for the Ka-52 and Mi-28N/M fitted to the Su-25 in the form of the optics and radar, and of course the Vitebsk system is a huge step forward in terms of defence for the aircraft.

    Improved avionics that increase the effectiveness of dumb unguided weapons, plus lots of guided weapons would be a good step forward. Certainly if they buy a batch of Vikhrs then they would be a very useful addition to its armoury with two pylons carrying 16 guided missiles able to take out point targets out to 15km in the later models.


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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:02 pm

    GarryB wrote:It was also rather expensive... particularly the optical attack system called Shkval-M, which is related to the system fitted to the Ka-50 Hokum.

    Personally I would love to see some of the systems developed for the Ka-52 and Mi-28N/M fitted to the Su-25 in the form of the optics and radar, and of course the Vitebsk system is a huge step forward in terms of defence for the aircraft.

    Improved avionics that increase the effectiveness of dumb unguided weapons, plus lots of guided weapons would be a good step forward. Certainly if they buy a batch of Vikhrs then they would be a very useful addition to its armoury with two pylons carrying 16 guided missiles able to take out point targets out to 15km in the later models.

    Wondered why, with all the different type of FLIR sights that have came out over the years, that they have no made a pod sooner that would have worked for Su-25 without any massive modernization.

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jun 13, 2013 2:28 am

    The new system shown on the Mig-29M2 might be an external pod version of the system fitted internally on the Mig-35 and would be useful for other aircraft to use including the Su-25SM.

    Pod mounted systems add drag and weight and often take up a pylon, but they can be fitted when needed and removed when not needed, plus they are far easier to replace with new technology. With new avionics they will likely be plug and play...

    They have been working on a range of pods including a thermal imaging pod, but I suspect the new optics in the Ka-52 and Mi-28M would make rather more sense as they are already optimised for the role of CAS with all the weapons integrated that they might use.


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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  sepheronx on Thu Jun 13, 2013 2:47 am

    GarryB wrote:The new system shown on the Mig-29M2 might be an external pod version of the system fitted internally on the Mig-35 and would be useful for other aircraft to use including the Su-25SM.

    Pod mounted systems add drag and weight and often take up a pylon, but they can be fitted when needed and removed when not needed, plus they are far easier to replace with new technology. With new avionics they will likely be plug and play...

    They have been working on a range of pods including a thermal imaging pod, but I suspect the new optics in the Ka-52 and Mi-28M would make rather more sense as they are already optimised for the role of CAS with all the weapons integrated that they might use.

    Exactly.  Do we know more about the pod found on the MiG-29M2? (I thought it was a MiG-35?).  Is it the Sapsan-E pod?  FLIR?

    A pod like that if made en mass, would be VERY useful for not only Su-25's, but on Su-24's, Su-34s (apparently they are using Domacles), Su-35 for better ground attack roll, Su-30 to further improve them.... Pretty much all aircrafts that need better air to ground capabilities.

    Surprised though that they have not made one based off of the Ka-52 and Mi-28M because those systems already have them installed, and how hard would it be to make it into a pod to work on aircrafts?

    All that being said, what about the Kopyo radar?  That too would give the Su-25's even more capabilities.

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:36 am

    Just after the photo showing the new external pods was posted here I think TR-1 posted this:



    My Russian is not great but it clearly says Mig-29M and Mig-29M2, which makes sense to me as adding a new pod should allow capabilities with new weapons which older model Migs don't carry anyway.

    I rather suspect this pod system is simply the same as the internal system fitted to the Mig-35 that can be fitted to Mig-29M and Mig-29M2 aircraft.

    Pods probably make more sense for multi role aircraft, but for dedicated aircraft there is some scope for their use to expand or upgrade capabilities too.

    The main issue with the Kopyo radar on the Su-25 is that its belly position makes it not so useful in the air to air role of scanning the air for air targets.

    Radars are not cheap, but I think fitting the new radar being developed for the Ka-52K naval helo into the Su-25SMx upgrade would make a lot of sense in terms of all weather day and night target detection capability... fitting it in the nose would give it the best field of view for air and ground targets while chin mounted optics should complete the package... though a 45mm gun with telescoped ammo or 57mm gun with laser guided shells might be a useful addition too except for a lack of room... the Frogfoot replacement will likely need to be bigger.


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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  a89 on Thu Jun 13, 2013 12:26 pm

    Are there photos of new Su-25 being produced for VVS?

    The main issue with the Kopyo radar on the Su-25 is that its belly position makes it not so useful in the air to air role of scanning the air for air targets.


    Sukhoi fitted R-77 in Su-25TM version. It was too much for an airframe like the Frogfoot. I think SM upgrades were much more economical and improved the Frogfoot main weaknesses.

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  Cyberspec on Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:37 am

    Model of a Su-25UBM armed to the teeth


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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jun 24, 2013 11:03 am

    Sukhoi fitted R-77 in Su-25TM version. It was too much for an airframe like the Frogfoot.

    For a small air force I would think that is a good idea... certainly an Su-25TM would still be much cheaper than previous generation fighters yet offer rather more air to air capability than old Mig-21s when using R-77s in the air to air realm (except for its low speed of course), while in the air to ground role it is much more capable than most supersonic fighters in the same price range (which is an empty group really...)


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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Fri Jun 28, 2013 12:29 pm

    I've read on western forums that the Su-25 has poorer protection on the rear than the A-10 because its engines are below the tail making it very vulnerable. Is this a legitimate statement or just propaganda?

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  Rpg type 7v on Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:30 pm

    it is true ,russia ground attack aircraft , missile will come from bellow and hit the engines .

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