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    Su-25SM numbers

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    TR1

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  TR1 on Sat Jan 14, 2012 2:20 am

    Ah, thats actually a good photo, thanks man, if that is indeed the new build Su-25UBM, never seen it with Kopyo. Ofc, talk of trials ending has been had for years now, and the question of the Air Force actually getting Kopyo pods is another thing altogether.

    Certainly hope it happens, operating with only dumb weaponry is getting long in the tooth.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:26 am

    Actually all Su-25s can operate laser guided bombs and rockets, though with the laser system in the tip of the nose they can mark targets for their own missiles but would need another aircraft to mark targets for bombs.

    (ie one aircraft hangs back and marks the target with its laser while another aircraft flys towards the target and releases a laser guided bomb and then can turn away.

    For missiles like the Kh-25ML and Kh-29L they can mark their own targets.

    According to info I have from 2004 the Su-25SM has the Bars digital avionics system (note in a news report I have seen mention that Bars-2 is fitted to the Su-25UBM), the Pastel ESM system, and an active electronic jamming station, HUD, and MFD.
    Onboard testing and system monitoring systems reduces maintainence and service times by 25-30%.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:03 am

    Personally I hope they have added the guidance computer they were displaying for the Su-24M and Tu-22M3, that generates projected impact points for unguided rockets and bombs in free flight.

    It means a circle appears in the HUD and the pilot just manouvers the aircraft to put the circle on the target and then releases the weapon to get a good chance of a hit.

    It greatly increases the accuracy of dumb weapons against the sort of visible targets the Su-25 was designed to engage, for a small initial outlay.

    Most of the time precision guided weapons are good for dangerous point targets, but for most targets you want the accuracy of a guided weapon with the cost of an unguided bomb or rocket... the computer aiming system offers that.

    Of course they need some guided weapons as well... GLONASS guided bombs in the 50kg, 100kg, and 250kg weight range would be ideal for using near friendly troops to hit enemy targets without leveling the whole village.

    Of course if you corner some terrorists in a mountain valley a few FAB-3000 or even FAB-9000 bombs delivered by Tu-22M3s would do the trick too. Smile

    The Ugroza guidance kits for rockets would also improve the performance of the Su-25SM as each rocket suddenly gets the accuracy of an ATGM and can be used at extended ranges with confidence of a hit.

    Carrying HERMES like weapons will be useful, but a 20 shot rocket pod with 80mm guided rockets each able to take out a truck or bunker with a single shot maximises its performance, and with terminal guidance it means rockets can be fired from max range which increases the safety of the aircraft by using the weapons from standoff range.

    Of course these days they could have a high flying UAV with a laser target marker just circling the targets with Su-25s lofting laser homing rockets towards the targets for max standoff range and minimal exposure to enemy fire.

    Fitting an Su-25 with a targeting pod like Damocles means it could operate above enemy fire and still find and engage targets much more cheaply than a medium fighter could.

    The satellite navigation and laser ranging allowing the pod to calculate the coordinates of the target means that data could be directly passed to satellite guided bombs under the Su-25s wings and released in real time... lighter weight bombs minimising the threat to nearby friendly forces.

    (Note my emphasis on friendly forces nearby is because the CAS role of the Su-25 is to engage targets close to friendly forces giving them problems... it might be a bunker or tank or it could be a machine gun position amongst rocks or a sniper position identified by ground forces. Bombs of 50-250kg means you can release the weapons nearer to friendly troops than you could with standard 500kg or heavier bombs safely... the precision meaning they are still effective on target despite being lighter.)
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    medo

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  medo on Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:59 pm

    Su-25UBM on the picture looks the same standard as Su-25SM, so it could also show the level of modernization for existing Su-25UB into Su-25UBM, on the other hand new build Su-25UBM could be redesigned for better equipment and to use radar, because they will have the whole lifetime beneath them and will work for a longer time.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:55 am

    The Su-25UBM has the advantage of two crew so the guy in the back can be using radar or damocles like targeting pod to find and engage targets while the pilot keeps the bird in the air and looks for threats and targets.

    With the powerful magnified all weather optics of a targeting pod the aircraft can fly higher (and safer) in COIN operations.

    The built in satellite navigation should allow forces on the ground to give the Frogfoot specific coordinates to look to find the threats/targets which should make the search even easier.

    As targeting pods have laser target markers that can rotate and point below and behind the aircraft it can be used for laser guided bombs, while the nose mounted laser system can be used for laser guided rockets and missiles.
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    George1

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  George1 on Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:48 am

    http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20120221/171427430.html

    Russian Air Force to Receive New Attack Aircraft by 2020

    The deliveries of new close air support aircraft to the Russian Air Force will start by 2020, Air Force spokesman Col. Vladimir Drik said.

    “The Air Force units will start receiving this aircraft by 2020,” Drik said on Monday. “It will gradually replace highly-reliable Su-25SM Frogfoot attack planes.”

    According to Drik, the new aircraft will meet the demands of modern warfare and feature elements of “stealth” technology, the whole range of tactical weaponry, modern radar and navigation equipment.

    Meanwhile, Russia will continue to upgrade its outdated Su-25 attack aircraft to Su-25SM version, which has a significantly better survivability and combat effectiveness.

    The Russian Air Force currently has over 30 Su-25SM planes in service and plans to modernize about 80 Su-25s by 2020, Drik said.
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    TR1

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  TR1 on Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:22 am

    http://www.sukhoi.ru/forum/showthread.php?t=74910

    Around 50 Su-25SM have been completed today. Another 80 are expected through 2020.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  GarryB on Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:40 am

    That is good news.

    Interesting the reports about a new CAS aircraft being worked on for 2020 that will include stealth capabilities.

    The thing is that the biggest threats to CAS are not radar based, normally it is IR guided SAMs and small arms fire from the ground....

    As we all saw with the Commanche helo, ground attack aircraft can't be too expensive because to a certain degree they will get damaged in the normal course of doing their job.

    Stealth requires extreme precision and very fine tollerances in production and manufacturing... a little battle damage can ruin millions of dollars worth of effort.

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    George1

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  George1 on Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:39 pm

    New stealth CAS will propably be sth like Lockheed F-117 Nighthawk?
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    TR1

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  TR1 on Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:04 pm

    George1 wrote:New stealth CAS will propably be sth like Lockheed F-117 Nighthawk?

    100% certain to be nothing like the F-117 Razz

    I think people are reading too much into the stealth thing IMO, I don't even sea a brand new aircraft ready so soon, unless it is a modified current platform with RCS reduction perhaps.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  GarryB on Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:25 am

    F-117 was a medium range bomber whose main feature was stealth.

    In fact you could do the work of an F-117 with two cruise missiles, the difference being the F-117 was harder to detect with radar, but the cruise missiles travelled much further.

    I remember quite a long time ago there being a photo in a magazine that showed what looked like a heavily modified Su-25.

    It had a tail mounted pusher propeller for propulsion and a rear mounted straight wing, while up the front it had two sets of canards. The photo of the aircraft was actually a photo of a black plastic model and the wings had a hinge where they folded which suggests this aircraft was designed for carrier use as well as land based use.

    It wouldn't be particularly hard to reshape the aircraft to make it more stealthy if not actually stealthy, the photo was from a rear quarter so it was not possible to see any sensors on the nose.

    The low number of radar guided short range missiles and the common use for CAS aircraft in low intensity conflicts means radar protection via stealth should be actually a very low priority and IR stealth should be rather more important. the large contrarotating propfan engine on the model would be an improvement in that regard.
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    George1

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  George1 on Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:49 pm

    GarryB wrote:F-117 was a medium range bomber whose main feature was stealth.

    In fact you could do the work of an F-117 with two cruise missiles, the difference being the F-117 was harder to detect with radar, but the cruise missiles travelled much further.

    I remember quite a long time ago there being a photo in a magazine that showed what looked like a heavily modified Su-25.

    It had a tail mounted pusher propeller for propulsion and a rear mounted straight wing, while up the front it had two sets of canards. The photo of the aircraft was actually a photo of a black plastic model and the wings had a hinge where they folded which suggests this aircraft was designed for carrier use as well as land based use.

    It wouldn't be particularly hard to reshape the aircraft to make it more stealthy if not actually stealthy, the photo was from a rear quarter so it was not possible to see any sensors on the nose.

    The low number of radar guided short range missiles and the common use for CAS aircraft in low intensity conflicts means radar protection via stealth should be actually a very low priority and IR stealth should be rather more important. the large contrarotating propfan engine on the model would be an improvement in that regard.

    Stealth CAS means that the new aircraft will have its weapons in an internal bay. So that means a fatter design with smaller wings
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    George1

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  George1 on Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:42 am

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    GarryB

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  GarryB on Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:23 am

    Stealth CAS means that the new aircraft will have its weapons in an internal bay. So that means a fatter design with smaller wings

    Quite true... the real question however is what sort of stealth do they mean?

    The Commanche program largely was cancelled when they realised that threats like Tunguska and then Pantsir-S1 didn't rely totally on radar for engaging targets so the Commanche, for all its cost in terms of development, the high cost of buying it, and the high service cost of maintaining its stealth, yet a widely deployed air defence system could engage it at ranges exceeding those with which it could retaliate.

    Ironically the Il-106 had very thick wings and had weapon bays inside those wings for 250kg bombs... it also had a powerful main gun and a rear gunner position operating a tail gun.

    The main problem is that for most CAS roles a couple of bombs is not enough... to be effective in the CAS role you need a decent gun... the twin 30mm cannon of the Mi-24, the GSh-30K I think would be ideal as it has a lower rate of fire but a higher muzzle velocity than the related GSh-30 of the Su-25.

    After the campaign in Georgia the Su-25 pilots mentioned the rate of fire of the cannon was too high, so the gun on the Hind should be a better option with a high and low fire rate option and higher muzzle velocity.

    You also need the capacity to carry large numbers of cheap rockets for use against area targets and light bombs are also useful for harder large targets or groups of enemy.

    Some sort of guided standoff weapons would also be valuable but need to be cheap enough to use in large numbers and considering the direction the Russian military is going I would say a range of options would be needed.

    I would say the TV, Laser, and IIR guided models of Kh-25 would be useful and the TV and IIR guided Kh-29s for really hard targets like heavy bridges would be good for unusual targets that are well defended. Add to that the Ugroza laser guidance kits for unguided rockets in the 80mm and 122mm rocket calibres would be cheaper yet very effective for small targets like trucks and APCs with HE Frag and HEAT warheads respectively. Finally the Hermes series of missiles would also be useful as it can be carried in large numbers and be effective against point targets because of their guided accuracy to compensate for the smaller 30kg warhead.

    For bombs a mix of dumb and guided bombs is best with TV, laser, IR guided and satellite guided and their combinations would be most useful.

    The most important stealth for a CAS aircraft would be in the IR range to make it hard to get a lock with a MANPAD like Stinger or Igla.

    Obviously a self defence suite like DIRCMS would also make engagement with IR and optically guided weapons difficult too.

    As you can probably tell this contrasts sharply with the F-117 which spends all its time flying at medium altitude and its primary weapon load is two laser guided bombs.
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    George1

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  George1 on Wed Oct 10, 2012 4:54 pm

    The serial production of upgraded Su-25 will be started in December

    The upgraded Su-25 strike-fighter is undergoing flight testing. Its serial production will be started in December 2012 and it will receive a new designation, Izvestiya reports.
    The lessons learned during the war in Transcaucasia in 2008 were taken into account during upgrading of Su-25. «Su-25SM aircraft have been taking part in this war and three of them have been lost. The vulnerabilities of the strike-fighter have been found out, for example, the jet does not have a tactical EW suite able to countervail the advanced antiaircraft defenses and fighters. In addition, Su-25 is still using only unguided aircraft-launched missiles and general-purpose bombs. There is a possibility of using guided Kh-25 and Kh-29 missiles, but Su-25’s weapon-aiming system does not meet the advanced requirements», - a source from the air force command said.
    According to him, Su-25 and Su-25SM jets are limited in capabilities under conditions of severe weather and at night. In addition, both aircraft are unable to use bombs adjusted by GLONASS. The experience gained during modern conflicts (for example in Libya) shows that the jet must hit targets without entering the area of coverage of the enemy air defense systems, using high-precision weapons under any weather and lighting conditions.
    The upgraded Su-25 is equipped with advanced tactical EW suite “Vitebsk-25” developed by Ekran (Samara). The jet is also equipped with the weapon-aiming system allowing usage of Kh-29 guided missiles and KAB-KR aircraft controlled bombs with television guidance. The image from the homing head is transmitted to the display located in the cockpit.
    Besides new tactical EW suite and weapon-aiming system, the upgraded Su-25 is equipped with new encrypted communications system with a range of 1000 km. It helps integrate all the jet’s electronic equipment into a single automatic troop command system.
    The navigation system has also been updated. Its key component is the receiver, which is able to surpass active and passive jamming using GPS-GLONASS channel. The jet will also be fitted with electro-optical thermal imagery camera, which is backing up the work of optical and radioelectronic search and homing systems.

    http://www.ruaviation.com/news/2012/10/10/1267/

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  TheRealist on Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:20 am

    George1 wrote:The serial production of upgraded Su-25 will be started in December

    The upgraded Su-25 strike-fighter is undergoing flight testing. Its serial production will be started in December 2012 and it will receive a new designation, Izvestiya reports.
    The lessons learned during the war in Transcaucasia in 2008 were taken into account during upgrading of Su-25. «Su-25SM aircraft have been taking part in this war and three of them have been lost. The vulnerabilities of the strike-fighter have been found out, for example, the jet does not have a tactical EW suite able to countervail the advanced antiaircraft defenses and fighters. In addition, Su-25 is still using only unguided aircraft-launched missiles and general-purpose bombs. There is a possibility of using guided Kh-25 and Kh-29 missiles, but Su-25’s weapon-aiming system does not meet the advanced requirements», - a source from the air force command said.
    According to him, Su-25 and Su-25SM jets are limited in capabilities under conditions of severe weather and at night. In addition, both aircraft are unable to use bombs adjusted by GLONASS. The experience gained during modern conflicts (for example in Libya) shows that the jet must hit targets without entering the area of coverage of the enemy air defense systems, using high-precision weapons under any weather and lighting conditions.
    The upgraded Su-25 is equipped with advanced tactical EW suite “Vitebsk-25” developed by Ekran (Samara). The jet is also equipped with the weapon-aiming system allowing usage of Kh-29 guided missiles and KAB-KR aircraft controlled bombs with television guidance. The image from the homing head is transmitted to the display located in the cockpit.
    Besides new tactical EW suite and weapon-aiming system, the upgraded Su-25 is equipped with new encrypted communications system with a range of 1000 km. It helps integrate all the jet’s electronic equipment into a single automatic troop command system.
    The navigation system has also been updated. Its key component is the receiver, which is able to surpass active and passive jamming using GPS-GLONASS channel. The jet will also be fitted with electro-optical thermal imagery camera, which is backing up the work of optical and radioelectronic search and homing systems.

    http://www.ruaviation.com/news/2012/10/10/1267/

    New aircraft or upgraded air-frames?
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    Cyberspec

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  Cyberspec on Sun Oct 14, 2012 1:43 pm

    TheRealist wrote:New aircraft or upgraded air-frames?

    I would say refurbished airframes. The only new ones AFAIK, are the planned Su-25UBM 2-seaters
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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sun Oct 14, 2012 1:56 pm

    Can the Su-25SM use vikhr ATGMs and TV guided bombs or lacks the electronics suit?
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    Cyberspec

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  Cyberspec on Sun Oct 14, 2012 2:23 pm

    Well apparently this new Su-25SM3 version can use TV guided bombs. The Vikrh was only for the Su-25TM (?) I think
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    GarryB

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  GarryB on Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:56 am

    Depends on what stabilised optics they are being fitted with... if it is something like that fitted to Ka-52 or Mi-28N then including a stabilised laser for beam riding missiles should be fairly straight forward.

    Equally the Ka-52 has laser beam riding models of Ataka and therefore such a system could be fitted to upgraded Su-25s with the prospect of also using the Vikhr and of course the new Krisantema as well as Hermes.


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    George1

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  George1 on Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:42 pm

    At Primorsko-Ahtarska pilots are experienced in the new "flying tanks" Su-25БМ

    http://tvzvezda.ru/news/forces/content/201212281345-hfp5.htm
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    TR1

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  TR1 on Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:34 am

    http://www.militaryparitet.com/ttp/data/ic_ttp/4779/

    Add 12 Su-25 modernizations to that.
    These might potentially be a lot more interesting than previous Su-25SM.

    a89

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  a89 on Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:31 am

    Add 12 Su-25 modernizations to that.
    These might potentially be a lot more interesting than previous Su-25SM.

    I would expect it incorporates better RWR/ECM systems, together with a more advanced weapon system that allows firing from longer distances. Recently Alexander Mladenov published an article on the modernizations carried out by Russia (and Ukraine). A very interesting read.
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    TR1

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  TR1 on Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:41 am

    The new optical targeting container is the part I am most curious about.

    No new Su-25UBM in sight, while we are on the topic.
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    GarryB

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    Add 12 Su-25 modernizations to that.

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:39 am

    A decent targeting pod that allows ground and air targets to be engaged would greatly benefit the Frogfoot without costing too much because you would only need to buy half a dozen pods for 20-30 aircraft.

    Damoclese pods would do initially but they are clearly working on new generation pods for the PAK FA, so a PAK FA pod jnr for CAS could be a useful thing too... it could be used by helos too like Mi-28As to give bolt on night and all weather capability while keeping the aircraft cheap and simple for the export market.


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