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    Su-25SM numbers

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    RTN
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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  RTN on Tue Sep 27, 2016 12:13 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    The main use of Vitebsk is against MANPADS, which are plentiful in the area. A Turk F-16 approaching with ill intent would likely be scanned with S-400 as the best deterrent.

    How will it defend against laser laser beam riding MANPADS, for example RBS-70? The RBS-70 missile has no seeker head at the front of the missile and the laser beam riding system in the tail of the missile is extremely difficult to jam.

    Same applies for Verba MANPAD. Missiles are guided to their targets using a three-channel optical seeker, which operates in the ultraviolet, near-infrared, and mid-infrared wavelengths.Moreover, the warheads of the VERBA contains three infrared sensors that are constantly cross-checking against one another to make it even harder for a target aircraft to disrupt the system.

    Ergo, the Vitebsk will not be able to defend the Su-25SM3 against MANPADS like RBS-70 & Verba
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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  GarryB on Wed Sep 28, 2016 10:48 am

    How will it defend against laser laser beam riding MANPADS, for example RBS-70? The RBS-70 missile has no seeker head at the front of the missile and the laser beam riding system in the tail of the missile is extremely difficult to jam.

    That is totally different.

    ATGMs are slow and generally use IR sensors in their guidance. The Javelin has an IR sensor in its nose that can also be interfered with.

    The RBS-70 on the other hand is very fast and its optical sensor looks back at the launch platform rather that towards the target so it is far more difficult for the aircraft to defeat the guidance method.

    Detection of the laser of course could allow a powerful laser pulse to be directed at the launcher to damage the "optics"... ie blind the operator which would cause them to stop manually tracking the target and cause the missile to miss.

    Fortunately there are very few laser beam homing missiles out there arrayed against Su-25s at the moment.

    Same applies for Verba MANPAD. Missiles are guided to their targets using a three-channel optical seeker, which operates in the ultraviolet, near-infrared, and mid-infrared wavelengths.Moreover, the warheads of the VERBA contains three infrared sensors that are constantly cross-checking against one another to make it even harder for a target aircraft to disrupt the system.

    A bright laser in the frequency they operate at can obscure the target (aircraft)... just like a candle flame becomes invisible when placed in front of a bright spotlight...

    There wont ever be a 100% perfect defence or attack system... measure/counter measure is continuous game.

    Ergo, the Vitebsk will not be able to defend the Su-25SM3 against MANPADS like RBS-70 & Verba

    It might work against both, or it might not. There are certainly no Verba missiles in Syria and no foreign equivalents exist AFAIK. It might be possible there are some RBS-70, but not a huge number and you have to be in the right place at the right time to actually use it.

    More importantly the Gefest & T computerised bombing system will allow attacks from standoff ranges... making self defence rather easier and ground fire less effective.


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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  mack8 on Tue Oct 11, 2016 5:01 pm

    Su-25SM3!


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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  kopyo-21 on Tue Oct 11, 2016 5:40 pm

    mack8 wrote:Su-25SM3!

    We can see 3 MAW sensors under fuselage, 2 at the tail and 1 at near foward landing gear bay. Not sure they can cover 360° around Su-25SM3 with 3 these sensors.
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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  medo on Tue Oct 11, 2016 8:50 pm

    kopyo-21 wrote:
    mack8 wrote:Su-25SM3!

    We can see 3 MAW sensors under fuselage, 2 at the tail and 1 at near foward landing gear bay. Not sure they can cover 360° around Su-25SM3 with 3 these sensors.

    Missiles could not hit the jet exactly from the side, not to be seen from the front as the jet is faster than the helicopter. I'm sure they calculate well, that MAWS sensors cover dangerous angles, from which missiles could attack. Now we could only hope it have SOLT targeting complex in the nose and that we will see, what differences it have in the cockpit. It also have new data link antenna.
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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Tue Oct 11, 2016 11:55 pm

    medo wrote:
    kopyo-21 wrote:
    mack8 wrote:Su-25SM3!

    We can see 3 MAW sensors under fuselage, 2 at the tail and 1 at near foward landing gear bay. Not sure they can cover 360° around Su-25SM3 with 3 these sensors.

    Missiles  could not hit the jet exactly from the side, not to be seen from the front as the jet is faster than the helicopter. I'm sure they calculate well, that MAWS sensors cover dangerous angles, from which missiles could attack. Now we could only hope it have SOLT targeting complex in the nose and that we will see, what differences it have in the cockpit. It also have new data link antenna.

    Any idea how many of these russia has and plans to get?
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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  Militarov on Wed Oct 12, 2016 1:27 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    medo wrote:
    kopyo-21 wrote:
    mack8 wrote:Su-25SM3!

    We can see 3 MAW sensors under fuselage, 2 at the tail and 1 at near foward landing gear bay. Not sure they can cover 360° around Su-25SM3 with 3 these sensors.

    Missiles  could not hit the jet exactly from the side, not to be seen from the front as the jet is faster than the helicopter. I'm sure they calculate well, that MAWS sensors cover dangerous angles, from which missiles could attack. Now we could only hope it have SOLT targeting complex in the nose and that we will see, what differences it have in the cockpit. It also have new data link antenna.

    Any idea how many of these russia has and plans to get?

    Somewhere they said 84 are to be modernised by 2020.
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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  George1 on Wed Oct 12, 2016 6:59 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    Any idea how many of these russia has and plans to get?

    the contracts till now is for 5+9=14 aircrafts


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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  franco on Wed Oct 12, 2016 10:44 pm

    George1 wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    Any idea how many of these russia has and plans to get?

    the contracts till now is for 5+9=14 aircrafts


    Good question. When the order for the 5 being built for this year was announced, they said they would be tendering 40 by the end of 2020. A couple of years ago it mentioned at 60 and prior to that 80. We will have to wait and see. There were 84 upgraded to Su-25SM standard, of which late 2015 it was stated that 79 were still active.
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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  medo on Thu Oct 13, 2016 9:08 pm

    How many Su-25UB were modernized to Su-25UBM? They will be part of Su-25SM3 regiments.
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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  franco on Thu Oct 13, 2016 11:16 pm

    medo wrote:How many Su-25UB were modernized to Su-25UBM? They will be part of Su-25SM3 regiments.

    Maybe two dunno

    Serious concern. No new ones and old ones apparently too used up to upgrade.
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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  franco on Fri Dec 30, 2016 2:27 am

    According to this article from the MoD, Su-25SM3 involved in 30 training exercises in 2016. Su-25 Regiment operating in the Krasnodar region is the 960th at Primorsko-Akhtarsk.

    http://function.mil.ru/news_page/country/more.htm?id=12107230@egNews
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    In Syria Su-25SM

    Post  medo on Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:56 pm

    In Syria Su-25SM, Su-30SM and Su-35 were/are using exclusively unguided bombs with high accuracy. RuAF also refuse to upgrade Su-25 with Gefest & T SVP-24 and went for deeper modernization Su-25SM3. All those new jets have the same most modern meteo sensors, data links, SATNAV equipment, modern navigation equippment and new digital FCS computers, so their capabilities with unguided bombs and rockets are no worse than with SVP-24.

    Avia darts competition is competition of pilot skills, not of planes, where use of such complexes like SVP-24, radar, EO complexes, etc are not allowed. Only pilot eyes and basic targeting on HUD, that all pilots in different planes have the same chances.

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  kopyo-21 on Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:55 am

    Su-24M's role is BAI and its tactic is indirect bombing from the distance out of enemy close air defense so SVP-24 well support them to do that tactic.

    While Su-25's role is CAS and their tactic is direct bombing from short distance and low attitude. With this tactic, the SVP-24 does not help much. Russian MOD has gone for Su-25SM/SM3 since long time before Syria crisis where Gefest & T Su-24Ms have gained their reputation in real combat.

    Su-25SM3 is deeper and wider modernization that touches everything from electro- optronic targeting (Solt-25), cockpit, on borad avionics and self defense (Vibtesk-25). Like Su-24M2 vs. Gefest & T Su-24M, Su-25M3 is more expensive and can not do indirect bomb as good as Gefest & T Su-25 but their ability to use wide range of precise and guided weapons are better than their competitor for sure.
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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  George1 on Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:26 pm

    Facts on combat application of Su-25 attack aircraft in Syria

    The assault squadron of the air group included ten Su-25SM and two Su-25UBs from the 960 assault aviation regiment of the 1st Guards mixed air division of the 4th Air Force and Air Defense Army of the Southern Military District stationed in Primorsko-Akhtarsk.
    The Kuban pilots started practical development of the updated materiel at the end of February 2013, after the regiment received the first 8 ground-attack planes from the Kubinka suburb near Moscow (repair and modernization of the Su-25 to the Su-25SM level is carried out at 121 aircrafts in Kubinka). By that time, most of the regiment's flight crew had undergone theoretical retraining at the Training Center for Aircraft Personnel and Military Tests of the RF Ministry of Defense in Lipetsk (the former 4th pulp and paper plant and PLC), and ITS - at the plant in Kubinka. The first flights to the Su-25SMV in Primorsko-Akhtarsk took place on February 25, 2013. Thanks to the new sighting and navigation complex PrnC-25SM "Bars" and the digital-analogue weapon control system SUO-39M, modernized attack aircraft could hit ground targets day and night with visual visibility, carry out navigational bombing (according to the target coordinates of the target) around the clock in any weather conditions with a horizontal flight and complex maneuvers. The range of airborne weapons was expanded: R-73E air-to-air missiles (instead of P-60M) were included in the armament of the airplane and new modifications of NAR-S and C-13 were introduced. The new equipment of the cab, first of all the collimator indicator KAI-1-01 and the multifunctional color LCD indicator MFTS-0332M as part of the information display system C0I-U-25, made it possible to improve the working conditions of the pilot and improve the efficiency of combat use, which in general for the modernized attack aircraft The experts' estimates increased 1.5 times. In 2014, the Su-25SM planes fully manned the first and second air squadrons, while the "simple" Su-25 was brought to the third squadron, removing surplus equipment for the staff. However, in October-November 2014, one squadron of SM-s was transferred to the formation of a mixed aviation regiment in Gvardeiskoye. Thus, at the beginning of the Syrian campaign, 960 Shap had only one squadron of modernized attack planes, which they decided to use in the operation.

    On September 16, 2015, Su-25SM aircraft No. 21, 22, 24, 25, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32 from the Primorsko-Akhtarsk and Su-25UB airfields No. 44 and No. 53 from the Budennovsk airfield Aerodrome Mozdok. After the preparation of the flight crew and the receipt of the combat mission, on September 19, they began a stage-by-stage relocation to the Syrian Arab Republic. Three groups of four aircraft (the "sparks" of the Su-25UB were leading the first two links), accompanied by the aircraft-leaders Il-76 flew to Iran. Most of the route lay over the water area of ​​the Caspian Sea beyond the coastline. An intermediate landing for rest and refueling was made at the high-altitude airfield Hamadan, which is over 1,700 meters above sea level. After the preparation of aviation equipment and recreation for the flight crew, three squadrons, accompanied by the leader aircraft, flew to the final destination of the route - the Khmeimim airfield.

    The personnel of the group was housed in residential modules equipped with everything necessary for comfortable living, rest and preparation for combat missions. After restoration of forces and acclimatization, the flight crew proceeded directly to work. On September 23, the first flights to familiarize with the area of ​​military operations took place, and on September 30 the crews of the Su-25 carried out the first combat sorties to strike ground targets.

    The main method of conducting combat operations by the Su-25SM crews in Syria was the successive infliction of air strikes against predetermined land targets (targets) at a fixed time in the navigational bombing mode alone, in pairs, links from the position of duty on the ground. For combat use, storm-troopers usually flew groups of 2 to 6 aircraft. For the strike, the group was assigned targets in an area with a radius of up to 20-25 kilometers. For completeness of the analysis of the quality of combat use, unmanned means of objective control of attacks of assigned ground targets (ZNC) were carried out with an interval of 1 or 2 minutes between the aircraft in the group, and repeated strikes were carried out by the group, usually in 5-6 minutes. In the absence of visual visibility between pairs or single crews, the group was assigned a micro-enrollment - usually at least 100 meters. Even if there was 10-point cloudiness over the target, a group of 6 storm-troopers, out of sight of each other, calmly carried out the assigned task, having a separation of 150-200 meters between the aircraft, and striking at the set time with an interval of 1 minute. Thus, a group of 6 aircraft having a load of four OFAB-250 for 30-40 minutes hung over the front edge of the enemy, striking at 24 targets and not allowing him to "raise his head." Syrian aviation was used up to heights of 3000-3500 meters. Su-25SM could also be stably and guaranteed to hit targets from the heights of both 3000 and 4000 meters. Combat loading in this case, as a rule, was 4-6 FAB of various types of caliber 100, 250, or 2-4 FAB-500 kg, with two PTB-800 suspension fuel tanks. The bombing was carried out from a horizontal flight from "safe" (in the event of a possible application of an MPAD) to heights from 3,500 to 4,100 meters. The blows were applied point-by-point - for each air-bomb its purpose. For example, four FABs hit four targets (the principle of one bomb - one goal was for the modernized storm-troopers law). To destroy clusters of enemy manpower, RBC was used, equipped with various types of ammunition.

    Since November 2015, storm-troopers have begun to fly to reconnaissance and strike operations - the so-called "free hunt". Take-off was carried out singly or in pairs (after which each departed along its own route), then carried out a flight to independently search for and destroy mobile targets. They hunted for columns as well as for single military equipment and vehicles (wagons, gasoline tankers), thereby suppressing the supply of weapons, ammunition, fuel, food, medicines and other logistics to bandit formations. Sometimes 4 PTB-800 and 2 NAR B-8 units were hung on planes, and then they were "hanging" in the zone for two hours for two hours.

    The intensity of the combat work of the group's assault aviation initially reached 6 sorties per pilot per day, later decreased somewhat to 4, and closer to the conclusion in February and March 2016, on average, there were 2 sorties. Su-25SM flew for combat use round the clock, while the ratio of day and night departures was approximately equal, sometimes even flying even more. Training flights to familiarize with the area of ​​operations, commissioning and restoration of skills after breaks in flying work on the "sparks" were carried out over Latakia and the Mediterranean Sea - flight crews were counted as flights to air reconnaissance.

    A huge burden fell on the shoulders of the engineering staff. Preparation of aircraft for flights, equipment of their TSA were conducted around the clock. Air bombs were ripped off on a common area, after which they were transported by planes. Brake parachutes were laid right in the parking lot between the aircraft. To prepare for the launch of the Su-25SM after receiving the combat mission, it takes 10-15 minutes. The time of preparation of other attack aircraft may differ in the direction of increase at times. It is for this reason that the stormtroopers have so many airplanes. They can not only be quickly raised on task to the air, but also the time of the combat cycle, they also have the smallest among all existing attack aircraft. As the practice showed, ITS was preparing the Su-25SM to re-take off in just 10-15 minutes, which, of course, favorably distinguishes it from other types of combat aircraft. For 5.5 months of combat operations in Syria, the modernized Su-25SM attack aircraft proved to be extremely reliable machines and did not annoy serious failures.

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2495624.html


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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  medo on Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:20 pm

    kopyo-21 wrote:Su-24M's role is BAI and its tactic is indirect bombing from the distance out of enemy close air defense so SVP-24 well support them to do that tactic.

    While Su-25's role is CAS and their tactic is direct bombing from short distance and low attitude. With this tactic, the SVP-24 does not help much. Russian MOD has gone for Su-25SM/SM3 since long time before Syria crisis where Gefest & T Su-24Ms have gained their reputation in real combat.

    Su-25SM3 is deeper and wider modernization that touches everything from electro- optronic targeting (Solt-25), cockpit, on borad avionics and self defense (Vibtesk-25). Like Su-24M2 vs. Gefest & T Su-24M, Su-25M3 is more expensive and can not do indirect bomb as good as Gefest & T Su-25 but their ability to use wide range of precise and guided weapons are better than their competitor for sure.

    No, Su-25SM in Syria was used in the same way as Su-24M. Bombing with free fall unguided bombs from high altitude on targets given from UAVs or other outside sources and they were very effective in their bombings. Su-25SM didn't operate in the same way as classical Su-25 do in CAS operations.
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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  Militarov on Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:41 pm

    franco wrote:
    medo wrote:How many Su-25UB were modernized to Su-25UBM? They will be part of Su-25SM3 regiments.

    Maybe two dunno

    Serious concern. No new ones and old ones apparently too used up to upgrade.

    Someone on other forum that will not be named said 3 were modernised.

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  kopyo-21 on Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:04 am

    medo wrote:
    kopyo-21 wrote:Su-24M's role is BAI and its tactic is indirect bombing from the distance out of enemy close air defense so SVP-24 well support them to do that tactic.

    While Su-25's role is CAS and their tactic is direct bombing from short distance and low attitude. With this tactic, the SVP-24 does not help much. Russian MOD has gone for Su-25SM/SM3 since long time before Syria crisis where Gefest & T Su-24Ms have gained their reputation in real combat.

    Su-25SM3 is deeper and wider modernization that touches everything from electro- optronic targeting (Solt-25), cockpit, on borad avionics and self defense (Vibtesk-25). Like Su-24M2 vs. Gefest & T Su-24M, Su-25M3 is more expensive and can not do indirect bomb as good as Gefest & T Su-25 but their ability to use wide range of precise and guided weapons are better than their competitor for sure.

    No, Su-25SM in Syria was used in the same way as Su-24M. Bombing with free fall unguided bombs from high altitude on targets given from UAVs or other outside sources and they were very effective in their bombings. Su-25SM didn't operate in the same way as classical Su-25 do in CAS operations.
    So have they got as good feedbacks as Gefest & T Su-24M and Su-33?
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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  medo on Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:05 pm

    Actually they did.

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2495624.html

    The main method of conducting combat operations by the Su-25SM crews in Syria was the successive infliction of air strikes against predetermined land targets (targets) at a fixed time in the navigational bombing mode alone, in pairs, links from the position of duty on the ground. For combat use, storm-troopers usually flew groups of 2 to 6 aircraft. For the strike, the group was assigned targets in an area with a radius of up to 20-25 kilometers. For completeness of the analysis of the quality of combat use, unmanned means of objective control of attacks of assigned ground targets (ZNC) were carried out with an interval of 1 or 2 minutes between the aircraft in the group, and repeated strikes were carried out by the group, usually in 5-6 minutes. In the absence of visual visibility between pairs or single crews, the group was assigned a micro-enrollment - usually at least 100 meters. Even if there was 10-point cloudiness over the target, a group of 6 storm-troopers, out of sight of each other, calmly carried out the assigned task, having a separation of 150-200 meters between the aircraft, and striking at the set time with an interval of 1 minute. Thus, a group of 6 aircraft having a load of four OFAB-250 for 30-40 minutes hung over the front edge of the enemy, striking at 24 targets and not allowing him to "raise his head." Syrian aviation was used up to heights of 3000-3500 meters. Su-25SM could also be stably and guaranteed to hit targets from the heights of both 3000 and 4000 meters. Combat loading in this case, as a rule, was 4-6 FAB of various types of caliber 100, 250, or 2-4 FAB-500 kg, with two PTB-800 suspension fuel tanks. The bombing was carried out from a horizontal flight from "safe" (in the event of a possible application of an MPAD) to heights from 3,500 to 4,100 meters. The blows were applied point-by-point - for each air-bomb its purpose. For example, four FABs hit four targets (the principle of one bomb - one goal was for the modernized storm-troopers law). To destroy clusters of enemy manpower, RBC was used, equipped with various types of ammunition.

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    In Syria Su-25SM, Su-30SM and Su-35 were/are using exclusively unguided bombs with high accuracy. RuAF also refuse to upgrade Su-25 with Gefest & T SVP-24 and

    Post  kopyo-21 on Sat Mar 18, 2017 3:28 am

    There are lot of bla bla bla about Su-25SM/SM3 but nothing like this.
    the SVP-24-33 system has allowed Su-33 used in Syria unguided bombs with an accuracy which is characteristic of guided weapons and the maximum deviation from the target does not exceed a few meters  
    http://www.rbc.ru/rbcfreenews/5878e8849a794719284dc0f9
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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  medo on Thu Jun 01, 2017 9:23 am



    Modernization package for Su-25SM3. Now we could see, that Su-25SM3 got additional LCD display in cockpit.

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

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