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    Su-25SM numbers

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    Werewolf
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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  Werewolf on Tue Dec 30, 2014 4:34 am

    Zivo wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:
    Kyo wrote:Apparently a new stealth CAS plane named "Hornet" is in the make to replace Su-25SM beginning 2020. Is this the so-called PAK-SHA?

    https://plus.google.com/photos/102549610567855022047/albums/6097933326642936209

    Not much of sense making a  CAS plane, that is operating just few hundred meters at hot zones, stealth.

    A soldier in camoflauge jumping infront of you is not really "stealth".

    Well, how long do you think the A-10's would last in all out war with Russia, China, or anyone else with good AA capability? CAS aircraft need some serious updating to remain relevant , especially in the age of UCAVs.

    I've never seen a fan-made design I thought would work.  It'll be interesting to see what Russia comes up with. I don't think trying to stealthify a Su-25 is going to work, the design's going to have to be unique.

    Like the designer of Mi-24 Mil Mi said, the combat life expectancy of Su-25 in real full scale totalitarian war in WW3 between Superpowers would be less than 3 minutes at the front and the Mi-24 was also designed to penetrate enemy front lines and deploy soldiers under SHORAD protected zones, the life expectancy under such unbearable conditions do not extent 3 minutes, the aircrafts were designed to at least deliver their payload before saying good bye.

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  Zivo on Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:30 am

    Werewolf wrote:
    Zivo wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:
    Kyo wrote:Apparently a new stealth CAS plane named "Hornet" is in the make to replace Su-25SM beginning 2020. Is this the so-called PAK-SHA?

    https://plus.google.com/photos/102549610567855022047/albums/6097933326642936209

    Not much of sense making a  CAS plane, that is operating just few hundred meters at hot zones, stealth.

    A soldier in camoflauge jumping infront of you is not really "stealth".

    Well, how long do you think the A-10's would last in all out war with Russia, China, or anyone else with good AA capability? CAS aircraft need some serious updating to remain relevant , especially in the age of UCAVs.

    I've never seen a fan-made design I thought would work.  It'll be interesting to see what Russia comes up with. I don't think trying to stealthify a Su-25 is going to work, the design's going to have to be unique.

    Like the designer of Mi-24 Mil Mi said, the combat life expectancy of Su-25 in real full scale totalitarian war in WW3  between Superpowers would be less than 3 minutes at the front and the Mi-24 was also designed to penetrate enemy front lines and deploy soldiers under SHORAD protected zones, the life expectancy under such unbearable conditions do not extent 3 minutes, the aircrafts were designed to at least deliver their payload before saying good bye.

    It might be best to drop CAS aircraft altogether and focus on developing high speed gunships instead.

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  Werewolf on Tue Dec 30, 2014 1:28 pm

    I don't think it is a good decision to drop CAS aircrafts like A10 and Su-25, it is highly unlikely to have anyother scenario where stealthy high speed gunships would be more effective or justified in cost per unit to maintenance cost. There are planty of hotzones from low intensive to high intensive were CAS aircrafts are the only one that can operate with high effeciency and much safer than any other aircraft.

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  Zivo on Thu Jan 01, 2015 12:01 am

    The problem with future CAS aircraft is, as gunships become faster, and UCAV's more numerous, the gap in coverage between high performance aircraft, and low performance gunships that currently exists gets smaller. The rapid response ground support niche shrinks.

    I don't think developing a next gen CAS aircraft, a "stealth" analogue of the current CAS aircraft, is worth it. Many of the necessary design elements of V/LO aircraft, and conventional CAS theory almost seems contradictory to me.

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  Werewolf on Thu Jan 01, 2015 2:02 am

    Zivo wrote:The problem with future CAS aircraft is, as gunships become faster, and UCAV's more numerous, the gap in coverage between high performance aircraft, and low performance gunships that currently exists gets smaller. The rapid response ground support niche shrinks.

    I don't think developing a next gen CAS aircraft, a "stealth" analogue of the current CAS aircraft, is worth it. Many of the necessary design elements of V/LO aircraft, and conventional CAS theory almost seems contradictory to me.

    The offensive and defensive capabilities of UCAV's and especially limited usefullness due steadily increasing enemy ECM capability on battlefield, limits its use and therfore coverage and makes it a very specialized weapon, to fill gabs with.

    I think we will remain for next 3 decades to CAS, mainly focusing CAS to fill large amount of gabs via Combat Helicopters which over past 2 decades increased their capability to stay out of enemy envelope and deliver their payload without comprimizing their position immidiatley due their capability and relative high loitering time they have lower risk than CAS jets.
    Near future capabilities for NLOS guided missiles is already in planning and testing and would enlarge their capability for deep strike missions which mainly were performed by Ground Attack Aircrafts such as Su-24/F-111 and A-10/Su-25.

    The amount of UCAV's and their use will increase but i think they will face a limited use except against highly inferior opponents like already the case today.

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jan 01, 2015 4:30 am

    Not much of sense making a CAS plane, that is operating just few hundred meters at hot zones, stealth.

    A soldier in camoflauge jumping infront of you is not really "stealth".

    In this context stealth might mean able to change colour depending upon what is behind it.

    It doesn't need to be perfect like predator, but just enough to make an aircraft 5km away really really hard to spot.

    Well, how long do you think the A-10's would last in all out war with Russia, China, or anyone else with good AA capability? CAS aircraft need some serious updating to remain relevant , especially in the age of UCAVs.

    i would say proper implementation of DIRCMs would reduce losses rather more than radar stealth... how many CAS aircraft get shot down by radar guided weapons?


    I was thinking something on the lines of a modified Su-34, with thicker armor, engines that have it's exhaust speed scaled back and it's dry thrust increased so it can carry a heavier payload, and the back room converted in to a air-mobile UCAV control center.

    Would be better off starting with something like an Il-112 with a more powerful datalink and room for a dozen or more operators in comfort at much greater distances and altitudes over the enemy location.

    It might be best to drop CAS aircraft altogether and focus on developing high speed gunships instead.

    If an Su-25 can't survive how could a slower helicopter manage... even if it is the fastest helo in the world it still wont match the Frogfoots 950km/h top speed.

    I don't think developing a next gen CAS aircraft, a "stealth" analogue of the current CAS aircraft, is worth it. Many of the necessary design elements of V/LO aircraft, and conventional CAS theory almost seems contradictory to me.

    If you keep it sensible it should be possible.

    It doesn't need to be super stealth radar invisible, but visually hard to spot would be much more useful as most ground fire at CAS is optically detected and aimed.

    Having systems that detect ground fire and can automatically detect and engage incoming guided missiles like Stinger and Mistral would also be critical.

    A simple projection system that has simple cameras and displays all round the aircraft so cameras pointing backwards can project what is behind the aircraft to the front displays and vice versa could make the aircraft very difficult to target let alone see in the first place.

    it doesn't have to be a HD image... just some colour matching would make the aircraft difficult to spot and target.

    Right up close you would be able to see the aircraft, but at 3-5km it would be much much harder.


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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  Viktor on Thu Jan 08, 2015 5:20 pm

    Krasnodar military base received 16 Su-25SM3 during 2014

    Half old aircraft airbase near Krasnodar replaced by a new modification of the Su-25

    It is getting more difficult to keep tracking numbers but they seems to be bigger than ever Smile

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  George1 on Fri Jan 23, 2015 2:58 am

    Russia Tests GLONASS on Su-25SM Bombers

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jan 23, 2015 10:48 am

    Not really testing GLONASS.

    This is more of a test of night and all weather flight capability in mountains... a very difficult thing indeed as winds can create treacherous conditions in mountains.

    Such capability would enable automatic flight pretty much anywhere in any conditions meaning the crew can focus on targets more.

    Glonass can of course help there too... when called in to support troops if the ground forces can locate the enemy positions precisely the Frogfoot can engage them from stand off ranges using Glonass guided bombs and missiles which makes them rather safer from ground fire.

    Would be good of the Frogfoot got the capability to carry a targeting pod that enabled them to transmit video data of the enemy position to the commander on the ground so the commander could use that information to mark targets for the pilots and artillery...

    that would make the job of the pilot easier and safer and ensure the ground forces get the support they want.


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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  George1 on Tue Feb 17, 2015 8:43 pm

    Su-25SM3 at Finish Line

    Upgraded Su-25SM3 fighter bomber is preparing to undergo flight testing.

    “At the present time we are preparing routine tests of attack aircraft, which are expected to start in the first half of this year,” the Military-Industrial Courier reports, citing a source in the military-industrial complex. According to him, “the control tests will finally pave the way for the beginning of the serial modernization of Su-25 fighter bombers into a modification Su-25SM3.”

    “Modification of the Su-25SM3 was the result of a complex flight tests in 2013 and 2014. Option Su-25SM3 seriously differs even from the previously modernized Su-25SM because of armament and on-board equipment,” the source said. He reported that the Su-25SM complex receives a set of electronic warfare “Vitebsk-25″, the nomenclature of aircraft weapons is greatly expanded.

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  Werewolf on Tue Feb 17, 2015 8:57 pm

    George1 wrote:Su-25SM3 at Finish Line

    Upgraded Su-25SM3 fighter bomber is preparing to undergo flight testing.

    “At the present time we are preparing routine tests of attack aircraft, which are expected to start in the first half of this year,” the Military-Industrial Courier reports, citing a source in the military-industrial complex. According to him, “the control tests will finally pave the way for the beginning of the serial modernization of Su-25 fighter bombers into a modification Su-25SM3.”

    “Modification of the Su-25SM3 was the result of a complex flight tests in 2013 and 2014. Option Su-25SM3 seriously differs even from the previously modernized Su-25SM because of armament and on-board equipment,” the source said. He reported that the Su-25SM complex receives a set of electronic warfare “Vitebsk-25″, the nomenclature of aircraft weapons is greatly expanded.

    Sound really nice.

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  flamming_python on Tue Feb 17, 2015 11:23 pm

    Why would a CAS aircraft need a EW complex?

    For jamming/disabling MANPADs or short-range AA?

    EDIT: I looked up the Vitebsk-25 and it seems that my guess is correct. Actually it's for both; it basically consists of a Radar jammer and also an IR-dazzler for use against MANPADs

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  Viktor on Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:14 pm

    New Su-25SM3 will start to roll out from the factory starting Q4 2015 thumbsup


    Production of modernized Su-25SM3 begin in the fourth quarter of this year

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  mack8 on Sat Feb 21, 2015 12:31 am

    First glimpse of the SM3 upgrade? Apart from the unidentified item under the tail (DIRCM?), there is what appears to be an ECM pod under the wing in place of the AAM launchers.
    http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=32254&page=79



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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  Werewolf on Sat Feb 21, 2015 12:41 am

    On the tail you see new L-150 Pastel RWR sensors and this must be a towed decoy mechanism, it is just to huge to be anything else and DIRCM's are always balls so they can rotate towards the threat, DIRCM's will probably be on the wingtip pods you see on 2nd picture would make the most sense since they could face forward or backwards to dazzle missiles.

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  TR1 on Sat Feb 21, 2015 1:22 am

    Might just be the optical launch warning sensors.

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  Werewolf on Sat Feb 21, 2015 2:48 am

    TR1 wrote:Might just be the optical launch warning sensors.

    Guess you are right, same cover K3-2 on L-136 on Ka-52.



    But an ugly housing i must say.

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  TR1 on Sat Feb 21, 2015 3:57 am

    Yeah pretty hideous, but as long as the jet-wash does not harm/interfere with them, should be ok.

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  Werewolf on Sat Feb 21, 2015 4:24 am

    Good question how much the exhaust gasses would interfere with MAWS, but i guess they have tested it.

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  medo on Sat Feb 21, 2015 9:31 am

    L-150 Patel RWR was present in all Su-25SM planes. New is this MAWS sensor we see under the tail. Optical MAWS sensor could be either IR either UV. I don't know, how much jet exhaust could interfere to UV sensor.

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  mack8 on Sat Feb 21, 2015 10:10 pm

    Thanks for input all, indeed they've probably chosen that installation to avoid jet exhaust interference. Wonder if the SM3 will also have forward facing MAWS sensors, and where the DIRCM would fit.

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  George1 on Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:29 pm

    Su-25SM3 strike-fighter is being prepared for flight testing

    Flight testing of the upgraded Su-25SM3 strike-fighter will be started in a few months, Voenno-promishlenniy Courier reports with reference to a source close to the military-industrial sector.

    «At present we are preparing for flight testing of the strike-fighter, which should be started in the first half of 2015,» the source said. According to him, “the flight testing will “pave the way” for mass upgrade of Su-25 strike-fighters operated by the air forces to Su-25SM3 version».

    «Su-25SM3 version was developed following the results of flight tests carried out in 2013 and 2014. Su-25SM3 version differs significantly even from upgraded Su-25SM strike-fighters in terms of weapons and avionics suite,» the source added. He said that Su-25SM is fitted Vitebsk-25 EW suite and it is able to use more weapons.

    Su-25 strike-fighters were manufactured by two aviation plants located in Ulan-Ude (Su-25UB operational trainers) and Tbilisi (combat Su-25 jets with an output of 140-150 aircraft per year). A total of 1320 Su-25 jets have been manufactured.

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  mack8 on Fri Mar 06, 2015 1:21 pm

    What do you guys makes of this rumour: Gefest will have it's upgrade package installed this year in Su-24M, Tu-22M3 and Su-25! The guy says it's not for the Su-25SM version but another upgrade "branch" of the Su-25. Is it for VVS or export? And who (or what) is Babak?
    http://forums.airforce.ru/foto-video/6316-aviadarts-2015-a/#post118683

    Also, it seems the Su-24M Gefest upgrade continues, makes one wonder how many have been upgraded and are planned to be.

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  mack8 on Fri Mar 06, 2015 6:02 pm

    SM3 details:



    PS: ignore 2, it's just a bottle Laughing

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    Re: Su-25SM numbers

    Post  TR1 on Fri Mar 06, 2015 6:40 pm

    Shit, I don't see any DIRCM yet.

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